This just shows how little ZOS Cares about the veteran players

MincVinyl · September 2020

Drdeath20 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

What zos says there has to be taken with a grain of salt.

When they say that people who are not more optimized, they are taking about the players that are not running the most efficient major minor buffs compared to a veteran player running the most efficient maj/minor buffs.

They are comparing and changing the values of the major minor buffs because they are drastically unbalanced. Its no surprise that major protection is far more important than something like major endurance. Two major buffs should be an equal trade off.

To put it into perspective:
Major endurance potion = full uptime
Major expedition pot = 15s
Minor Protection pot = 15s

Where would this land Major protection if we were to consider these balanced based on duration instead of value.
All zos is doing is saying the value of one major buff should be an equal trade off of another. Instead of how currently veteran players who know which buffs are exceedingly stronger having a simple knowledge gap over newer players.

Edit: I will agree with you that almost every time a statement like this is written, it is done rather poorly and it makes people freak out for little reason. Remember the light and heavy attack changes notes? The first 3 paragraphs stated 'Our game is good because it is fun and fast paced........We want to make it so slower apm players are equivalent to higher apm players" Anything following those statements got ignored because they instantly got the veteran community angry. Which lead to multiple very good changes to be forgotten about.

Your forgetting another value and that is how easy it is to attain.

Major endurance at 45 seconds is not equal to major protection at 15secs but major endurance is easy to find on a potion that gives major brutality, and major savagery where major protection is generally a standalone buff.

How easy the buffs are to attain has, for years, been dictated by how unbalanced they are. The only reason it is harder to get major protection is because of how strong it is compared to other major buffs. The major/minor buffs would ideally be balanced to be equivalent balance wise and then unnamed buffs should be hard to obtain.

EX: Players are moving too fast >> Instead of reducing maj exp 30% movement speed or Swift 10% movement speed zos goes and changes every possible source of it to have random short durations.>>Combat with these buffs suffered, losing consistent speed from such short duration spurts of high speed

This would make it much easier for zos to do balancing. Currently these buffs are hard to balance because the maj/minor system isnt balanced by itself......but zos tries to balance these buffs between many different layers like armor/pots/abilities using duration and proc conditions to try to balance all of these different layers. Then those layers each individually have different opportunity costs to them. When one layer gets buffed/nerfed people just swap to another layer to get the same overperforming buff. Balancing those layers is much harder than balancing the buffs and then reworking the layers once the buffs are balanced.

PizzaCat82 · September 2020

I like how so called "veteran" players seemingly scream the sky is falling when changes happen. As if there wont be a new META. As if there wont be 50 million ways to better yourself and get to the top of the food chain again.

The only constant in this game is the grind. That's the business model. You can't get to the top and then whine when they change to a new mountain.

nesakinter · September 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

It'll be fine.

Seriously, this is the sort of nerf that's targeted at organized groups of players. That is, unless your solo build was somehow "utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts".

Is this nerf to groups going to work?

Well, look at Cyrodiil. ZOS has tried to squash ball groups via various nerfs for years. It hasn't worked. Ball groups look at the new meta, adapt, and come back as strong if not stronger than anyone else. It's to the point that ZOS has to butcher AOEs to effectively nerf organized groups because nothing else has worked.

PVE trial groups are just as good at adapting to the new meta.

It'll be fine.

(Now, the AOE changes may not be fine, but that's for the future.)

@VaranisArano You would be surprised how many 1vX PvP builds stack most Major/Minors. Between various potions and poisons it is pretty easy to get almost all group buffs on most builds except a few outliers like Major Force.

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Man, the amount of vitriol in this thread towards players who work on their builds and rotation is astounding. Back when I was young and spry I was a competitive runner. I worked really, really hard at it, and those efforts paid off. It would have been a given that I'd generally have been faster than someone who ran 3 miles a few times a week. I never, ever had anyone mad at me for being faster when they trained much less. it should be obvious that the more you work at something, the more likely it becomes that you'll get good at it.

The same applies here. I have spent, at this point, hundreds of hours on my build and rotation. Of course I'm going to be good at it.

Except the people here who got better aren't content to work on harder content that challenges their abilities. They just want to sit around in content they've outgrown and complain about it. They want to wreck the rest of the game for everyone else, they want to shame other people for doing what they like to do just because those people can't get huge numbers. All the calls for "harder overland" are basically like this. All the dungeon running ruining group finder dungeon experiences are based on this.

Meta is basically min-maxing and a type of exploitation. And every sort of point system / lots of choices system will be vulnerable to extreme builds that are outside of what's intended. Technically legal, but so out of bounds that it breaks the content and therefore shouldn't be allowed. That's what makes it an exploit -- it makes the game not fun, not just for the exploiter but for everyone else in the game. In ESO this manifests in toxic behavior from high-dps players against newer players or players who just aren't interested in playing math but are interested in trying to have fun in ESO. In subtler ways it manifests in pressuring players to conform to meta, maybe not even giving them a chance to see if they can succeed without.

Minimaxing, like all exploits, always has to be addressed.
And it looks like ZOS is going to address it by nerfing what makes these extremes possible, pulling things slowly back to what was intended and what their content design was meant to support.

http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Rich Lambert basically said in the AoE test announcement that they tried to allow people to play outside the bounds of what was intended by the game because trying builds is part of the fun. They even let people run around with troll builds and ball groups spamming whatever. They are trying to let people have their fun but players keep abusing it, keep ruining the gameplay experience for other people -- minimaxing, meta, and other gameplay style/build exploits always have consequences that ultimately hurt everyone playing in some way. And now it's gotten so bad that ZOS has hit a limit in Cyrodiil with server calculations so they have to step in.

It's probably a similar situation here -- content too easy? Really? Well maybe the dps numbers are too high for too long and it's time to address minimaxing too much.
You found a way to make their content too easy. Great. Well, fun's over. They're taking away what can be exploited to make it too easy. Now it's a bit harder. Not what you want? Gonna ask for more CP? Too easy again? Gonna ask for harder overland next?

Most other games don't have this issue because you only have the illusion of choice. They actually limit your choices, limit what's possible, and thereby limit the numbers you can hit.
The fun on ESO is in the breadth of choices you are allowed to have. But of course exploiters will exploit that to ruin ESO by insisting on playing math.

craybest · September 2020

"The game is too easy!"
*Devs make meta sets more balanced with the rest*
"Omg how dare they?"

Calypso589 · September 2020

I’m not sure why the min/maxers are so insulted by this.

It seems pretty obvious to me that a standardization of buff & debuff values would inevitably result in super optimized players losing some power while things get retuned to be more consistent.

Pretty sure you are still going to be playing at a level miles above those who don’t optimize & are still going to be rewarded for crunching numbers over people who don’t.

So......like.....chill.

Nerds.

WeerW3ir · September 2020

Just one simple question. Basicly the very meaning of this topic. Can actually zos add without taking? Make the new players happy without making oldies wrecked? Everybody would win

PizzaCat82 · September 2020

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Just one simple question. Basicly the very meaning of this topic. Can actually zos add without taking? Make the new players happy without making oldies wrecked? Everybody would win

When people's argument is "Others are getting something I worked hard for"

Then no, there's no winning for ZOS.

SidraWillowsky · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Except the people here who got better aren't content to work on harder content that challenges their abilities. They just want to sit around in content they've outgrown and complain about it. They want to wreck the rest of the game for everyone else, they want to shame other people for doing what they like to do just because those people can't get huge numbers. All the calls for "harder overland" are basically like this. All the dungeon running ruining group finder dungeon experiences are based on this.

Meta is basically min-maxing and a type of exploitation. And every sort of point system / lots of choices system will be vulnerable to extreme builds that are outside of what's intended. Technically legal, but so out of bounds that it breaks the content and therefore shouldn't be allowed. That's what makes it an exploit -- it makes the game not fun, not just for the exploiter but for everyone else in the game. In ESO this manifests in toxic behavior from high-dps players against newer players or players who just aren't interested in playing math but are interested in trying to have fun in ESO. In subtler ways it manifests in pressuring players to conform to meta, maybe not even giving them a chance to see if they can succeed without.

Minimaxing, like all exploits, always has to be addressed.
And it looks like ZOS is going to address it by nerfing what makes these extremes possible, pulling things slowly back to what was intended and what their content design was meant to support.

http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

Rich Lambert basically said in the AoE test announcement that they tried to allow people to play outside the bounds of what was intended by the game because trying builds is part of the fun. They even let people run around with troll builds and ball groups spamming whatever. They are trying to let people have their fun but players keep abusing it, keep ruining the gameplay experience for other people -- minimaxing, meta, and other gameplay style/build exploits always have consequences that ultimately hurt everyone playing in some way. And now it's gotten so bad that ZOS has hit a limit in Cyrodiil with server calculations so they have to step in.

It's probably a similar situation here -- content too easy? Really? Well maybe the dps numbers are too high for too long and it's time to address minimaxing too much.
You found a way to make their content too easy. Great. Well, fun's over. They're taking away what can be exploited to make it too easy. Now it's a bit harder. Not what you want? Gonna ask for more CP? Too easy again? Gonna ask for harder overland next?

Most other games don't have this issue because you only have the illusion of choice. They actually limit your choices, limit what's possible, and thereby limit the numbers you can hit.
The fun on ESO is in the breadth of choices you are allowed to have. But of course exploiters will exploit that to ruin ESO by insisting on playing math.

I agree that this needs to be addressed in PvP because yeah, no one should be immortal and able to 1v7293721983 while also managing to hit super hard. I don't necessarily consider that an exploit, but it's incredibly annoying, to say the least.

I honestly don't think that the majority of players think that the content is too easy. In any zone at any given time you'll likely find people asking for help with WBs, and sometimes even public dungeons. People on the forums (a very small percentage of players) tend to be more serious about the game; I doubt the most casual players even know that the forums exist.

My issue is that ZOS seems to be balancing the game around the basement- people should not be able to do literally whatever they want and then try to participate in difficult team content. Back to the running example- when we had cross country meets, the top eight runners contributed to our team's score. If you wanted to be in that top eight, you needed to participate in a way that allowed you to get there. If you want to skip or walk or turn somersaults or whatever then that's your prerogative, but don't expect to be in the top eight or for people to want you on their team.

The thing about ESO is that you don't NEED to min/max or do the math or hit a dummy thousands of times to be a decent player. Get two full sets and a monster set for your spec, learn a basic rotation (a few AoEs and/or DoTs then a spammable in between, for example), put some CP where it needs to go, and you are good to go for 99% of content in the game. I've tested so many builds with various sets, skills, and rotations both with and without light attack weaving, and I can't think of any that tanked my DPS enough to not get me through everything but the vet non-Craglorn trials and some no-death speed run DLC dungeon achievements. The only things necessary to get there are using ma DPS sets for mag DDs and stam DPS sets for stam DDs, using the 5/5/2 set piece setup (though even that is negotiable), some semblance of a rotation, and not-completely-nonsensical CP allocation.

YandereGirlfriend · September 2020

@Dusk_Coven Min-maxing is definitely not exploiting: applying your mind to solve a problem is one of the defining features of being a human being.

SidraWillowsky · September 2020

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Just one simple question. Basicly the very meaning of this topic. Can actually zos add without taking? Make the new players happy without making oldies wrecked? Everybody would win

When people's argument is "Others are getting something I worked hard for"

Then no, there's no winning for ZOS.

That's not what most people are saying.

Let everyone pull a minimum of 30k DPS just by existing. I don't care. I don't care if they get free access to the perfected trial sets, I don't care that arena weapons are easier to get, and I don't care if achievements become easier to get. I'm of the mindset that that doesn't somehow "cheapen" my own achievements. I just don't like the idea of them obliterating my ability to deal damage. The ceiling doesn't need to come crashing down in order to help the floor...

VaranisArano · September 2020

nesakinter wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

It'll be fine.

Seriously, this is the sort of nerf that's targeted at organized groups of players. That is, unless your solo build was somehow "utilizing all Majors/Minors at once in coordinated efforts".

Is this nerf to groups going to work?

Well, look at Cyrodiil. ZOS has tried to squash ball groups via various nerfs for years. It hasn't worked. Ball groups look at the new meta, adapt, and come back as strong if not stronger than anyone else. It's to the point that ZOS has to butcher AOEs to effectively nerf organized groups because nothing else has worked.

PVE trial groups are just as good at adapting to the new meta.

It'll be fine.

(Now, the AOE changes may not be fine, but that's for the future.)

@VaranisArano You would be surprised how many 1vX PvP builds stack most Major/Minors. Between various potions and poisons it is pretty easy to get almost all group buffs on most builds except a few outliers like Major Force.

In which case, this change makes even more sense. ZOS hates 1vXing and nerfs their builds whenever they can. It's just not a good look when one guy can LOS and pull a group of players apart into a series of 1v1s kill a group of players. Remember the Blazeplar? They've never come close to regaining their pre-Morrowind glory days. Never mind that most successful 1vX these days is against players too inexperienced to know better, ZOS still will nerf it when they can.

But I do suspect its mostly about group play, given how they described their reasoning and the current attempt to nerf organized raids via AOE changes.

JayKwellen · September 2020

As a PvPer, when I see stuff like this posted I usually get irritated as I think catering to people who have no interest in bettering themselves is a horrible idea, in life as in ESO. I get jaded at the thought of having other people being lifted out of their incompetence because they're unable and unwilling to do it themselves, while I had to actually work to find good builds and gear while also learning about the builds and combos and playstyles of other classes as well. Yes, I get very elitist over it, I'll admit.

Then I remember that the people being lifted the most are also the people who don't know how to heal in combat, can't remember to break CCs, don't know how to time or even what effective combos are, who chase coordinated ballgroups into towers, who stand in siege and charge head first into meatbag and coldfire covered beaches, and who don't even know about stacking major and minor buffs anyway.

Then I realize it doesn't matter. Outside of giving someone godmode cheats, you can't make someone who's bad at something and not interested in improving any good. The only person who can do that is them, and they've demonstrated a lack of interest in doing so, so it's truly not something to worry about.

So bring it on ZOS, do your worst, because outside of playing the game for them you'll never be able to close the skill gap like you so desperately desire so long as you have people who are interested in improving and people who aren't.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2020

JayKwellen wrote: »

As a PvPer, when I see stuff like this posted I usually get irritated as I think catering to people who have no interest in bettering themselves is a horrible idea, in life as in ESO. I get jaded at the thought of having other people being lifted out of their incompetence because they're unable and unwilling to do it themselves, while I had to actually work to find good builds and gear while also learning about the builds and combos and playstyles of other classes as well. Yes, I get very elitist over it, I'll admit.

Then I remember that the people being lifted the most are also the people who don't know how to heal in combat, can't remember to break CCs, don't know how to time or even what effective combos are, who chase coordinated ballgroups into towers, who stand in siege and charge head first into meatbag and coldfire covered beaches, and who don't even know about stacking major and minor buffs anyway.

Then I realize it doesn't matter. Outside of giving someone godmode cheats, you can't make someone who's bad at something and not interested in improving any good. The only person who can do that is them, and they've demonstrated a lack of interest in doing so, so it's truly not something to worry about.

So bring it on ZOS, do your worst, because outside of playing the game for them you'll never be able to close the skill gap like you so desperately desire so long as you have people who are interested in improving and people who aren't.

Well put. The biggest divider is experience and muscle memory, and there is no substitute for that, as the game currently stands. Of course they could reduce the game to something that didn't require experience or muscle memory (*cough* cooldowns), but we're not there yet. It's still easy to demonstrate that you know what you're doing, in both pve and pvp, and standardising buffs/debuffs won't change that. As soon as they buff sustain again it will offset any damage lost from a small buff nerf.

Ozby · September 2020

Kurat wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Why not see it from another perspective? They try to bring everyone closer together

And what that's going to achieve? Current 10k bow spammers are able to get Godslayer?

takes more than good dps to get godslayer

Astrid · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Minimaxing, like all exploits, always has to be addressed.
And it looks like ZOS is going to address it by nerfing what makes these extremes possible, pulling things slowly back to what was intended and what their content design was meant to support.

I’m sorry what? I genuinely laughed. Minmaxing is what you would call math, not an exploit as much as you’d like to believe. How can you expect something to exist within the game, be readily available for you to equip either as a solo player, or in an organised group and then slap “exploit” on it because it’s performing as the math intended it would? Are people that horrified by something performing well that you’d go as far to call it an exploit? Having BiS gear and a dynamic rotation isn’t a cheat-engine. It’s hours upon hours of hard work and dedication and most importantly - failure. Something the casual side of the community aren’t really seeing behind all of your veteran players. We’ve all been there, struggling on vMOL twins for what seems like an eternity and then something finally clicks. The “floor” would do well to learn this instead of being handed more DPS and not learning a thing and then screaming about elitism. We may actually get more knowledgable players in the end game community which would be a welcome sight instead of this great divide of people who have struggled and learnt and those who want it given to them for free.

Having this “exploit” gear and sets and whatever else you’d like to deem unholy doesn’t automatically make you Jesus Christ reincarnated. You could have the best sets in the world and still be an actual potato. Calling it an exploit is laughable, it’s knowledge of a game we’ve played for a very long time.

Can the people who have put the time and effort and failure into this game just stop being penalised for taking the time to learn? I couldn’t care less what little Jimmy the role player is running on his heavy armoured lightning staff Khajiit. Can me and my “exploiting” gear just be left well enough alone so I can get on with my trials in peace? Thanks.

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Dusk_Coven Min-maxing is definitely not exploiting: applying your mind to solve a problem is one of the defining features of being a human being.

Yes it is. It's not so different from spawn camping. Possible by the mechanics but clearly not something you should do because it breaks intended gameplay.

You forget that this is also a game, and one played by other people. There is an intended range of gameplay.
You can "apply your mind to solve a problem" by hiding weights inside your boxing gloves to hit harder. But that's not intended so they ultimately banned it as a type of cheat -- so that boxing is back to how it was intended.
The range of intended gameplay has to be limited for a game to function reasonably.

Astrid wrote: »

Minmaxing is what you would call math, not an exploit as much as you’d like to believe.

Minmaxing is deliberately looking for excessive results that are beyond intended gameplay.
In other games it's not as possible to do that because they rein in the numbers. ZOS didn't do that and now they're playing catchup. ZOS is now trying to balance those numbers to rein them in, back to what their intended gameplay range is, and what they content was intended to support.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should wreck the game with it.

Way back when games were still in pen and paper and played around a table with friends, gamers recognized just how dangerous minmaxing was to the gameplay experience.
Nowadays people are more anxious to hold on to their exploits at the expense of not just everyone else but the very game they want to play.

http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html

FriedEggSandwich · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Dusk_Coven Min-maxing is definitely not exploiting: applying your mind to solve a problem is one of the defining features of being a human being.

Yes it is. It's not so different from spawn camping. Possible by the mechanics but clearly not something you should do because it breaks intended gameplay.

Astrid wrote: »

Minmaxing is what you would call math, not an exploit as much as you’d like to believe.

Minmaxing is deliberately looking for excessive results that are beyond intended gameplay.
In other games it's not as possible to do that because they rein in the numbers. ZOS is now trying to balance those numbers to rein them in, back to what their intended gameplay range is, and what they content was intended to support.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should wreck the game with it.

Spawn camping isn't an exploit either, it's just cheesy. Reading your comment makes me think you don't understand what minmaxing is (or maybe what an exploit is). It just means you minimise what you don't need so you can maximise what you do need. It's like reducing weight in a car so you can go faster. How is this possibly an exploit?? An example in game would be wearing malacath with heavy armour; wearing heavy armour leaves you with a crit chance of 19%, but that's fine because you can't crit with malacath.

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

It just means you minimise what you don't need so you can maximise what you do need. It's like reducing weight in a car so you can go faster. How is this possibly an exploit?

You're stuck thinking that ESO is like a better designed game where they have a handle on the numbers and "efficiency" still puts the results within intended gameplay ranges.

ESO isn't like that. ZOS doesn't have a proper understanding of what the mechanics allow. And that's why we see excessive results so minimaxing here does result in exploitative results that exceeds what the content was designed for. And that's why it needs to be addressed.

People have been taking advantage of that too long. From Rich Lambert's post about what players were capable of doing in PvP it suggests ZOS recognized it too but continued to allow it because they were trying not to take away what's fun about ESO.
This rebalancing of combat overall suggests that even they have limits to what they are going to allow.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it.

Linaleah · September 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Just one simple question. Basicly the very meaning of this topic. Can actually zos add without taking? Make the new players happy without making oldies wrecked? Everybody would win

When people's argument is "Others are getting something I worked hard for"

Then no, there's no winning for ZOS.

That's not what most people are saying.

Let everyone pull a minimum of 30k DPS just by existing. I don't care. I don't care if they get free access to the perfected trial sets, I don't care that arena weapons are easier to get, and I don't care if achievements become easier to get. I'm of the mindset that that doesn't somehow "cheapen" my own achievements. I just don't like the idea of them obliterating my ability to deal damage. The ceiling doesn't need to come crashing down in order to help the floor...

how do you propose they do that without raising the ceiling along with it exponentially thus making content unchallening for the top players, which would force them to design challenging content to compensate, making even more content unaccesible to average player - or killing what makes combat in this game unique as far as MMO's go - its pace? serious question cause if you can actualy solve this conundrum, it would be genuinely incredible.

not to mention, they are NOT obliterating your ability to deal damage. you will still deal a ton of damage. twice, three time, 4 times as much as most players, or more. EVEN with standardization of buffs.

honestly, I'm tempted to say - the real reason that they are standardizing these buff is to reduce the load on game calculations. if the buffs are static, then the game doesn't have to recalculate constantly.

carlos424 · September 2020

👍

FriedEggSandwich · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

It just means you minimise what you don't need so you can maximise what you do need. It's like reducing weight in a car so you can go faster. How is this possibly an exploit?

You're stuck thinking that ESO is like a better designed game where they have a handle on the numbers and "efficiency" still puts the results within intended gameplay ranges.

ESO isn't like that. ZOS doesn't have a proper understanding of what the mechanics allow. And that's why we see excessive results so minimaxing here does result in exploitative results that exceeds what the content was designed for. And that's why it needs to be addressed.

People have been taking advantage of that too long. From Rich Lambert's post about what players were capable of doing in PvP it suggests ZOS recognized it too but continued to allow it because they were trying not to take away what's fun about ESO.
This rebalancing of combat overall suggests that even they have limits to what they are going to allow.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. This is done through player knowledge, builds and group mechanics – resulting in a constant stream of AOEs with many players never using any other type of ability.

This is not what we intended, but part of the fun of Elder Scrolls games is designing a build that has unexpected and powerful results, and we allowed it.

Ok so it's "exploit" you don't know the meaning of. To exploit you have to know that the result is unintended/unforseen. We have to assume that everything zos give us is intended, until they state otherwise. So minmaxing can't be an exploit in a vacuum, it needs to include a mechanic you already know is unintended.

Lord-Otto · September 2020

Lambert is wrong.
Used to exist Steelnado trains. Pulsar trains. Permabats. Doorfarming with WoE, Hail and Caltrops. Proxy Det. Proxy Det bombers (still a thing, just rarer). Monster sets with AoE procs.
AoE spam isn't a new phenomenon. It's actually a bit rarer these days. And performance was a whole lot better back when AoEs were at their peak, with permabats everywhere.

Drdeath20 · September 2020

Pvdoor was an exploit, minmaxing is not

Artorias24 · September 2020

BlueRaven wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Fischblut wrote: »

Do the players who play this game for years and try to optimize as much as possible really mean so little to you that you try to make all their work nearly worthless by bringing new players closer to them every patch without them having to do anything?

We (veteran players) got the answer to this question, when they "took away" our arena weapons (which we earned in vet DSA and vet MA), and they gave these weapons to every newbie (who took a bit of time to run normal arenas after Greymoor release) We were left with "normal" weapons, as if we never did veteran arenas before Greymoor.

They showed complete disrespect to old players this way. So, even if it's very sad and discouraging, new bad decisions regarding veteran players are only expected
Also remember, for 2 years we didn't even had any CP cap increase - so we were not progressing, just to make it easier for new players to reach CP cap

Your arena weapons are still there. No one took anything away.

True, but they just gave away the weapons we took time and effort to obtain. Do you think that is fair?

I don’t expect a free upgrade to a new phone when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.

I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest computer processor when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.

I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest suv when a new one is introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get one.

And I don’t expect a free upgrade to the latest gear when new ones are introduced, even after all the time and effort I put in to get my previous gear.

So yes, I think it is perfectly fair.

I play dungeons and trials for fun. It’s a game after all. If I get gear, great! If not there is next time, to me it really does not matter.
If running group content is a chore for you, why run them? And if you stop running them, why do you need upgrades?

Just have fun and stop worrying about the gear other people have.

So it’s ok if I paid $1000 for my new iphone and then someone comes along and is given the same SAME one for $100. No upgrade, no depreciation, the same phone. You might be upset too if you paid $1000. I guess upset is the wrong word. I really don’t care. I just don’t like the argument of “free upgrades”. I think that giving bis gear to players will end up making the entire player base, as a whole, less skillful, since they won’t have had to work for it.

“Apple has lowered the starting price of its iPhone 8 and iPhone XR models by $150. The iPhone 8 and iPhone XR now start at $449 and $599, respectively.“

https://venturebeat.com/2019/09/10/apple-cuts-iphone-8-and-iphone-xr-prices-by-150-kills-iphone-7-and-iphone-xs/

And yet no one freaked out over it...

I think you need to know the whole story about vma weapons.

When they first came to the game they Had somewhat of an "perfected" trait. They removed it cause they thought it was too strong. Now they put new weapons in there, the perfected ones. That have the old stat again. But, your weapons that used to have that bonus are not changed to it. If you want them, you have to refarm them.

To compare that with your iphone example:

Iphone 124 has 500GB of storage and you buy it for 1000$. After some time, apple takes your iPhone, removes 300GB of storage for whatever type of reason. Now after 3 Years, Apple releases the exact same iPhone again, with 500GB storage for the same price you bought yours. But you dont get upgraded to 500GB. No, If you want it, you have to buy the new one again. Think this is fair? I dont think so.

thegreat_one · September 2020

There are far more players willing to do the work to find a way to get around these changes, so the only difference will be what appears on the death recap. Honestly looked at ESOlogs and studied what my 40-60k DPS players were wearing and what skills they had. Zos can't nerf that

Dusk_Coven · September 2020

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

To exploit you have to know that the result is unintended/unforseen. We have to assume that everything zos give us is intended, until they state otherwise.

Like the 100k crowns that suddenly appeared in some people's accounts?

When you are getting results so good they are breaking the game content, making it stupidly easy... you know you've found an exploit. Sure it may be a legit build, but no way it was "intended".

If you were playing a pen and paper game with friend around the table and one of you minimaxed to get a stupidly good result, the game master would be having a conversation with not just you but the whole group. Either they vetoed it, or they discussed whether to allow it.
It's not the game that's broken. It's the attitude of that one player.
For that game to be fun it had to give choices. But with great breadth of choice comes great responsibility. If a group ruined their gameplay experience, it was because they lost control of it and let some or everyone exploit without knowing how to handle it or stopping it before it got started.

The sort of things that would happen to ruin a game in pen and paper are happening here and causing strife in the player base. If one player was ultrapowerful and the rest didn't get to do anything, how fun is it for everyone? Same thing here in dungeons when some DD kills everything before newbs get to do anything and then he starts shaming them.

What we don't get here: Communication from ZOS. They lost control of the combat system long ago and they didn't have an up front conversation about it.
They saw this happening but they danced around it whenever they brought it up, instead of directly saying there's a problem they don't know how to fix without removing the fun for everyone.
And whenever there's a problem they don't know how to fix, they just clam up and say nothing, even for gross exploits like AP Boosting. So hiding behind "until [ZOS] says otherwise" is just exploiter excuses when you know how ZOS is dysfunctional in this regard.

All those people complaining about the game being too easy because of their remarkable build or button mashing or whatever that lets you one-shot things or shortcut a raid boss to half the mechanics or what not -- if you're not satisfied with the game now, you did it to yourself. Don't ruin it for everyone else.
And exploitation ruins the game for everyone. We've already seen it in the various exploits in Cyrodiil.

SamanthaCarter · September 2020

MrTrenbolone wrote: »

Catering to casuals is the biggest mistake any game developer can make.

Yes hardcore players makes the game famous (WoW dota Starcraft Minecraft even street fighter fortnite and call of duty...)

Artorias24 · September 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

To exploit you have to know that the result is unintended/unforseen. We have to assume that everything zos give us is intended, until they state otherwise.

Like the 100k crowns that suddenly appeared in some people's accounts?

When you are getting results so good they are breaking the game content, making it stupidly easy... you know you've found an exploit. Sure it may be a legit build, but no way it was "intended".

If you were playing a pen and paper game with friend around the table and one of you minimaxed to get a stupidly good result, the game master would be having a conversation with not just you but the whole group. Either they vetoed it, or they discuss whether to allow it.
It's not the game that's broken. It's the attitude of that one player. For that game to be fun it had to give choices. But with great breadth of choice comes great responsibility. If a group ruined their gameplay experience, it was because they lost control of it and let some or everyone exploit without knowing how to handle it.

What we don't get here: Communication from ZOS. They lost control of the combat system long ago and they didn't have an up front conversation about it.
They saw this happening but they danced around it whenever they brought it up, instead of directly saying there's a problem they don't know how to fix without removing the fun for everyone.
And whenever there's a problem they don't know how to fix, they just clam up and say nothing, even for gross exploits like AP Boosting. So hiding behind "until [ZOS] says otherwise" is just exploiter excuses when you know how ZOS is dysfunctional in this regard.

All those people complaining about the game being too easy because of their remarkable build or button mashing or whatever that lets you one-shot things or shortcut a raid boss to half the mechanics or what not -- if you're not satisfied with the game now, you did it to yourself.

I think you need to know what an exploit is. Min maxing your build with the given tools from ZOS is clearly not an exploit.

If you get permanently cowards gear bonus without wearing it or two mundus stones without wearing the gear set for it. That is clearly exploiting. But NOT when you use sets in a way that they were designed to be used.

SamanthaCarter · September 2020

Zos devs do not understand how to grow players community but it’s very simple,they could made so much more money if the game was not nerfed to the ground they don’t understand a lot of things and loosed hundreds of millions ...