Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

1. Is a complete and utter lie and i am growing tired of guilds trying to hide legitimate trading behind "oh, but the spam" argument. I see right through your nonsense.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

All of this aside, you still have not proven your culture/methodologies are abusive.


Side note: I dont care what the tax % is, it does not matter. The entire mechanic itself is responsible for abuse. It needs to be deleted, a g guild should not be making gold off this aspect of the game, its not efficient and its abusive in eso specifically (iv seen it abusive in other games also, btw)

I've been in guilds that have no trader and they ask players to keep looking to buy and looking to sell posts in guild chat to a minimum. So yeah the spam can be and often is the issue. I was in one trade guild that was up front that they preferred all sales to go through the trader but didn't mind common or low priced items being sold in zone chat. Selling in guild chat was not allowed. They were one of the top trading guilds in the game for a very long time. The members of the guild were elite traders. To that end more was expected of them than from casual traders. Exactly like trial guilds expect their members to meet some basic requirement before being allowed to run the weekly vet trials. Trial guilds have the luxury of available slots for players to join so they can work up to the status they need to get into a group. Trade guilds that want to compete near the top need all their members to be elite traders.
That said every trade guild I have been in has been very social. Lots of events, trial runs, players asking for help with world bosses, others farming areas for drops that sell well and all kinds of other stuff. To sell items you first have to acquire those items and the top trade guilds I have been it were very active in holding events that help players and the guild.

I've had the good fortune I guess to never run into guild officers that felt the need to horde gold other than to meet bids each week. I've never known an officer who skimmed from the top. In fact most put more of their own gold and time into the guild.

The tax system is in the game as a gold sink. Allowing the guild to also take some makes the gold sink a bit more palatable. The most expensive guild I was in wanted each player to generate 10k gold a week. With the 3.5% tax a player could easily do it just through sales. If sales were low players could join raffles, participate in the auction or whatever so long as at least 10K went to the guild. Those fees got us a prime spot every week. As a guild we worked to keep that spot as hard as any PvP guild works at getting good at PvP or any trial group that works to get on the leader boards. Trading at that level is end game just like some trials and PvP.

As usually, I see a thread full of "Let's say..."s and "hypothetically..."s rather than a list of problems that have actually been experienced with the system other than "I refuse to participate because I assume it's awful, so change it".

No more "hypothetical" straw men. What problems have you, personally, encountered with the process of joining a guild, listing your stuff for sale, and collecting your money? Or, conversely, what problems have you personally encountered with clicking on what you want to buy and getting it delivered to you?

If it's "I refuse to try at all" or "I only play once every six months and no guild wants me" or "I can't sell my three Porade and my Primal Style Book because I can't afford 1-5k/week to join a guild", those are all player problems, not system problems.

If it's "I don't like going from place to place trying to find the best price possible for this rare thing", then I suppose a discussion could be had there, but it's really still kind of a player problem because part of the cost calculation for the stuff you want to buy is "time", as in "How long am I willing to spend to find this thing for 100g cheaper?"

If it's "a shadowy cabal of the ultra-rich are keeping me from participating with their cartel tactics", show me some examples or check to make sure you've taken your meds recently.

If it's something else, I haven't seen it yet. What I'm seeing here (and every time it comes up) is a bunch of people who have been told bad things about the system, have refused to try to participate in the system because of those things, and repeating those things, regardless of how completely inaccurate they are (for example: How does the TTC add-on actually function, compared to how the TTC website functions for all platforms, compared to the myth of what TTC supposedly does?).

It's like people refusing to go to the hospital until the hospitals solve the horrible zombie problem, which they know is a thing because they saw movies about zombies in hospitals. No matter how many people tell them that there are no zombies in hospitals, they just keep repeating that hospitals are broken because of all the darn zombies.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

As someone who is in guilds more related to social content I can say they struggle with trying to make money for bids and it's just extra stress on them. The only people who benefit is the trade guilds charging members to be part of their guild.

I would expect the social guilds would struggle with obtaining traders as that is not their focus, hence they do not have the experience in how to manage it as well as lacking the support from their members. Heck, most social guilds with large rosters do not manage the roster to make sure everyone is actually active with the guild. Most of the members probably do not even know if and when the guild has a trader and likely do not care because they are already in a trade guild.

Further, I have never been charged by any trading guilds I have been in and my trade guilds are in major cities. I do have to actually sell something but even that requirement is very low.

And social guilds have to compete with this because people need a trader to sell stuff or spam zone chat and not everyone wants to be in a trade guild so social and content related guilds are stuck with the stress of trying to raise money for traders.

If the people who want to use a casual guild to trade are content with a trader that lets their items be sold without demanding a high traffic area it is doable. Currently I'm in 5 guilds; one is a no dues/no sale amount required trading guild, three are casual guilds no dues/no sales required who all have a trader, and the last one just started so we have a guild store, not a trader, yet.

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

1. Is a complete and utter lie and i am growing tired of guilds trying to hide legitimate trading behind "oh, but the spam" argument.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

All of this aside, you still have not proven your culture/methodologies are abusive.


Side note: I dont care what the tax % is, it does not matter. The entire mechanic itself is responsible for abuse. It needs to be deleted, a g guild should not be making gold off this aspect of the game, its not efficient and its abusive in eso specifically (iv seen it abusive in other games also, btw)

Your argument will be worlds stronger if you actually have correct numbers. And if you refrain claiming posters are lying.

I personally do not mind the 7% tax. Why not?

For one, gold sinks like the 3.5% that ZOS takes (very similar to the COD fee) benefit everyone by keeping gold inflation low. Similarly, every guild I've been in folds that 3.5% sales tax into their guild bid.

However, let's look at the "abusive" systems of making profit that my guild uses. When I trade at my maximum, I tend to sell around 1 million gold a week from my guild (mostly raw mats, reagents, and nirncrux, sold for slightly under market price). That's a meager 35k in sales tax for my guild, 35k for ZOS, while I keep 93% or 930k in profit. That's considerably more profit margin than I would keep from a 50/50 event like your Thieves event. It also gives me an enormous disposable income with which to pay guild fees, donate, purchase auction lots, or buy raffle tickets to support the guild...or even just horde it, because I totally made my minimal sales requirement of 25k a week. I think it's clear that a 7% tax is not exactly harming me.

Don't get me wrong. I think a fun activity like stealing with your guildmates and donating 50% of proceeds to the guild is a cool idea to fund your guild with guildies who like making some gold that way. Hopefully guilds have officers willing to donate their time to organize crowd-funding events like that, just like they already organize auctions and raffles.

But when I look at making profit and then reinvesting in a guild I like...I'll be honest, my guild and I get way more out of me farming, then trading the usual way, even with the 7% tax. There's room for all types in ESO.

The average player does not make 1m gold a week, or a day for that matter. Those of us doing multi-millions a week are the top of the trader block. This issue becomes much more serious for those selling sub-100k a week in items, at that rate 7k is a lot for them. With out a doubt, these taxes are not generating significant amounts of the guilds income to pay for those high bid traders. The majority of that income likely comes from events like raffles.

I think after being in 21 guilds, and currently in another 4 trade guilds, I have a very good idea of the games guild-trade culture, and i am pretty sure there is little you can do to sway me from this position being that i have experienced it first hand on many occasions for the last few months.

A side note, its not about the gold your making or the tax your paying. If this is the read you got on this post, it is totally wrong. The fact that guilds are using tax from the trade system to make their gold that is the problem. If the gold was made through selling of items it would benefit all guilds, and not require trade guilds to be abusive with anti-trading, anti-social rules.

So all of you saying this %, or i make this or that, you can stop with "its only 35k" type arguments, because its not about the money, its about what the system of tax on trading is doing to guilds and how they interact with their playerbase.


btw, i dont care about the 3.5% that zos takes, that has no impact on the guilds itself.

You keep messing up the math, and its hurting your argument.

Let's take a smaller amount. One of my trading guilds has a sales requirement of 25k sales a week.

Every player who sells 25k worth of items in the guild store makes 23,250 gold in profit. ZOS takes 875 gold and the guild gets the other 875 gold (less than the cost of a raffle ticket.) 93% profit, 7% loss to ZOS/Guild. That's not as substantial as you are painting it.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

As someone who is in guilds more related to social content I can say they struggle with trying to make money for bids and it's just extra stress on them. The only people who benefit is the trade guilds charging members to be part of their guild.

I would expect the social guilds would struggle with obtaining traders as that is not their focus, hence they do not have the experience in how to manage it as well as lacking the support from their members. Heck, most social guilds with large rosters do not manage the roster to make sure everyone is actually active with the guild. Most of the members probably do not even know if and when the guild has a trader and likely do not care because they are already in a trade guild.

Further, I have never been charged by any trading guilds I have been in and my trade guilds are in major cities. I do have to actually sell something but even that requirement is very low.

And social guilds have to compete with this because people need a trader to sell stuff or spam zone chat and not everyone wants to be in a trade guild so social and content related guilds are stuck with the stress of trying to raise money for traders.

I disagree with the premise that everyone needs access to a public trader. Every guild does have a trader available to them that allows guild members to sell to other guild members. In an active guild a player can sell quite a bit just to guild mates. I'm in a social guild that gets a trader most weeks. Sometimes we miss out but even when we miss out I still sell some stuff.

People who like PvP join a PvP guild. People that want to role play will join a guild with others that want to role play. Players that want to trade will join a trading guild. There are some that have no fees or dues. Trade guilds are always looking for new members. Having a near full guild of active traders makes keeping a trader all that much easier to do.
There are some players who play the game for the trading system this game has. For them it is the end game content and what they most enjoy. No need to take that aspect of the game away from them.

There is room for some changes though. I would like to see every location that has only one trader available get another trader. The ones in thieves dens and by wayshrines things like that. Two traders at those locations would first allow more middle and low tier trading guilds an opportunity to get a trader and would also give a bit more incentive to visit those locations.
I would also like to see one main board in the main city of each zone that lists all the traders in that zone. You could look up an item on that board and be shown all the traders that have that item. There would be no prices shown and you would have to visit the trader to buy the item. This would allow players who want something quick to see where they need to go to get it and it would allow bargain hunters to shop around.

JKorr wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader.

Tbh, this statement invalidated your whole point. The tax is 7% and the guild keeps 3.5%.

Amunari wrote: »

If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 500k a week income.

Well, it would be an ideal situation. About a third of any guild can't meet the quota no matter how low it is.

The tax could be 1% and it does not matter. the fact that its even lower proves that it is more toxic then thought. If 3.5% Could breed that much toxicity, its event worse.

Our guild focus's on building players up and uses a concept "if the player is strong, the guild is strong, if the player is wealthy, so to is the guild", most guilds fall in the "if the guild is wealthy, the players are" which is not even close to being true.

This is why our guild events are made in the aspect of teaching people how and where to get gold, and exchanging some of that activity for the guilds benefit as an entity. It is a far better system significantly more efficient for player and guild, then the current 3.5, 7, or 10% what ever tax nonsense.

Any trading guild gives you the access to a certain kiosk. Wealthy guild means better place. Your guildies are your competitors, they will undercut you at any given moment. But everyone agrees to these terms in order to sell their goods at better places.

So you're basically taking gold for something that can be googled?

No, a wealthy guild does not mean a better price. It may depending on the item, mean a faster sell, but that is all. The price is set by TTC/MT, not a traders location.

Everyone that posts on a store is a competitor. that is why i trade in chat, and encourage others to do so. It's faster, has no tax, and has no underbidding nonsense to deal with.

Why people have not caught on to how abusive the trade guilds are in this respect alone is beyond me, but i am dead-set on spreading this to such a point that it completely invalidates traders, and subsequently your abusive trader-guild culture.

Okay, I missed this. TTC sets the prices? Oh boy. You just did a "I reject reality and substitute my own" thing here.

TTC does NOT set prices. TTC shows what prices people have posted items for. NOT WHAT THE ITEMS ACTUALLY SOLD FOR.

Newsflash for you; not everyone uses TTC. Another newsflash: not everyone uses TTC because they've seen how people abuse TTC to set imaginary prices for things. Items can be listed for a super cheap price, left long enough to show up on TTC, then pulled and the price changed so anyone who bothered to go try to buy the item at low price has the choice to buy it at the higher, or not at all. TTC can show someone posted a Ta rune for 100k. Did that Ta rune actually sell for 100k? Probably not, unless some illegal gold selling was going on.

In all of my guilds NO ONE has every said YOU MUST LIST THIS ITEM FOR THE TTC PRICE. When I decide to check on prices for items I want to sell, I use MM. MM shows what items HAVE ACTUALLY SOLD FOR. As far as that goes, no one, no gm, no guild officer has ever said I have to sell item X for amount Z. Why would I accept TTC dictating the prices I want to sell my items for?

That does not need to be said, but what is the major encouragement when coming to eso and joinig trade guilds? is it not to get ttc/master trader and use them to figure out prices?

Then nothing has to be "said" its clear what the prices are, and subsequently, people are abused because of ignorance, and likely are following ttc for prices.

If you think that is not true, you have "rejected reality".

Didn't ZOS recently make it easier for players to sort through stuff at guild traders for those not using add-ons? A bit of topic, bit that was appreciated!

And I'm going to argue against consolidating all guild traders in a place to one sinngle NPC, on the sheer bases that I actually want to physically shop around, and to not ruin the immersion, to an extent. Shopping around, alongside crafting, is one of the main times I actually walk/run around from booth to booth like an actual person. And I like that.

Yeah sure, it would be effective, but i think that when one guild have one trader, it makes the areas more lively. Otherwise, people would just pile up like they do in front of bankers (which is more understandable IMO) before dast-travelling away.

The guild I run doesn't use a guild trader, so I can't speak much of this case from that approach, but what if there was a tax when buying from the guild traders as well? In order to encourage to more trading within a guild, and make it a bit less important to get the good spots? Or would that just be silly?