ESO Trader System needs to go, Immediately

Amunari · August 2020

This system is highly abusive to the player base. Some Major revisions to it, or the entire system needs a design pass.

Any time any game has a guild working like a feature (ie like group dungeons, the guild store etc), there is a major problem in the design of that aspect of the game. In this case, there is a massive amount of abuse, toxicity, and an utter freezing of player-interaction because of the way the current system works. The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader. This seems to be the primary focus of the guilds income, however it is an extremely inefficient form of income for guild through the majority of players.

To demonstrate this i will use some numbers we ran with my guild through investigation of supporting higher level traders.

lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week, with a 10% tax rate, that grants the guild income of 100,000 gold a week. This is enough to pay for a very basic trader, and even then its skeptical.
If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 5m a week income. this is not even enough to come close to the upper-trader locations. The guilds know it and as a result the majority of the rest of the traders weekly fee's are carried usually by 3-5 officers. This puts an insane amount of pressure on them, and they in return breed that pressure onto the rest of the guild population.

Lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week with a 3.5% Tax rate this generates 35k a week. For up to 500 players, 1.75m A week. This is not even half of the required value for high end traders.

Already from this point we can see everyone is abused from the current design

Now we come to Alternative means of income, Like guild events. In the case of my guild we generate 7,000 gold for the guild and players respectively in the same sitting of 15-20 minutes. This is ran daily. This means over the course of 7 days we generate 3.5m for the players and the guild minimum (those with higher ledgermain generate up to 10 million respectively for the two a week.

This means that the income rates of the systems we are running are over 3 times more efficient for both the player and the guild.

On the topic of "no wtb/wts" in guild chat

There are some guilds, or even many guilds that have this rule. What they fail to understand is that this rule is funneling things through the trader, which is milking the gold out of the guilds economy over time. In time (maybe a long while) the guilds economic power will decline. Guilds should be encouraging this type of behavior because the money players make, the more they trade, and this encourages more tax income in the guild, not less. People are stuck in this "trader meta" but its a really bad meta that needs to be addressed.

Now we come to some bigger issues.

It cannot be ignored that the bidding system likely can dump up to 1.5 billion a week in gold (well at least by the numbers i am aware for traders prices etc) across the 197 traders (if not more added in greymoor).

This seems to suggest to us that any improvement must leave in place a system that is equal to it in sinking gold out of the economy. As designers we are aware when it comes to economic balance that consistency is far more effective as opposed to bursts of gold going out of the economy.

Putting it all together
from the above we learn

- The current "traders in specific locations" needs to be adjusted to "area's specific collections of guilds" instead of individual guild stalls. So lets say each area now that has a collection of 1-10 stalls (or what ever it is based on zone) now has one stall, which has multiple trade guilds listing in it. This is kept intact to keep that aspect the players like, which is "shopping around for deals".Its important to note that there is no major drawback to consolidating the traders in one area, since its really just a few steps away and anyone visiting is likely using TTC website, which means they know exactly what is where, and for how much.

to those that argue against this already, i will advocate the keeping of individual stalls if you will agree to block API access to TTC website, so that you cannot pull pricing anywhere, because if your argument for individual stalls is in fact to shop around, TTC Invalidates that, and as a result your argument becomes invalidated.

- It would be far more beneficial for the game to enable paying for traders for guilds as an buy option after a set number of players, then have this bidding system. Lets place this at 50 members
- Guilds should not pay more then 500k a week, this should be capped.
- Some better structure for trader locations should be investigated.
- Everyone should have a trader.
- It might be interesting to have a new mechanic where there is "mobile traders" that move around while randomly buying things from traders and shifting them from one to the other. This may help improve economic viscosity.
- We should investigate adding a new improved taxing system to the game that taxes players automatically when they sell items to vendors, and loot at removing guild income from traders/guild store.

This should be sufficient to start a discussion about the above.

Tandor · August 2020

I'm all in favour of reforming the trading system, so long as it doesn't end up still being wholly dependent on guild membership to be able to participate in what in any MMO is a core part of the game, namely public trading. Keep some sort of guild trader system by all means, but with the addition of a NPC vendor in certain locations through whom any player can list a few items regardless of whether they belong to a guild or not.

Amunari · August 2020

When it comes to the betterment of the game, the cause of the abuse in trade guilds seems to be directly related to the 10% tax on trading. This is forcing a bad culture and interaction among players in the game, which will ultimately cause bad retention rates.

I think the solution to this problem is replacing that 10% tax on trade systems with a more dependable form of income, like guilds taxing the sales of items. A mechanic in the guild GUI, which will allow guilds to tax 0-100% of the income (much like that in eve online) is a good way to solve this problem. It might be the only major change the trade guild needs.

That being said i just think that we, as designers can do better then this and that zos's designers need to investigate ways to make trading more enjoyable, and a better experience for all. Like that which they need to do for pvp guilds by fixing the group ques. Both are extremely vital.

Nairinhe · August 2020

I only can say that I don't feel "abused" by current system

OldManJim · August 2020

Problem is that Zenimax won't change a thing. Even when shown proof of trade cartels they ignored it.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2020

So many wrong facts in the original post that I don't even know where to start.

danno8 · August 2020

As someone who pops in and out of the game for a few weeks/months here and there, the Guild Trading System is wholly inadequate and essentially shoehorns me into spamming WTS in chat. Which in turn makes me not bother at all.

I am not sure I could come up with a worse system for buyers, nor could I for casual sellers like myself. No trade guild would want me, nor would I be invited back, and frankly I would not blame them because it is the system as it is set up now that causues the "go big or go home" trading guilds.

Amunari · August 2020

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

So many wrong facts in the original post that I don't even know where to start.

I grow tired of this cartel-mob based attitude where you advocate for everything against the betterment of the game, in interest of self-benefit.

Anyone who is even slightly objective about this can see the abuse.

Amunari · August 2020

danno8 wrote: »

As someone who pops in and out of the game for a few weeks/months here and there, the Guild Trading System is wholly inadequate and essentially shoehorns me into spamming WTS in chat. Which in turn makes me not bother at all.

I am not sure I could come up with a worse system for buyers, nor could I for casual sellers like myself. No trade guild would want me, nor would I be invited back, and frankly I would not blame them because it is the system as it is set up now that causues the "go big or go home" trading guilds.

You know, iv been kicked from 21 guilds in the last 2 weeks because of posting wts/wtb in chat, that is the only reason. It really makes you think about how horrible the trade-guild culture is at current. Its a really abusive, highly toxic issue.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

So many wrong facts in the original post that I don't even know where to start.

I grow tired of this cartel-mob based attitude where you advocate for everything against the betterment of the game, in interest of self-benefit.

Anyone who is even slightly objective about this can see the abuse.

I'm not talking opinions or points of view here. Just plain WRONG FACTS.

etchedpixels · August 2020

It would improve things no end if they simply added a load more trader slots, or for that matter had all the wandering traders biddable or a wandering trader sweepstake.

nukk3r · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader.

Tbh, this statement invalidated your whole point. The tax is 7% and the guild keeps 3.5%.

Amunari wrote: »

If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 500k a week income.

Well, it would be an ideal situation. About a third of any guild can't meet the quota no matter how low it is.

Sirvaleen · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week, with a 10% tax rate, that grants the guild income of 100,000 gold a week. This is enough to pay for a very basic trader, and even then its skeptical.
If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 500k a week income. this is not even enough to come close to the upper-trader locations.

Am I the only one having a problem with the basic maths there ?

Yes ? Ok, must be tired. Please proceed with the torchs.

Beardimus · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

So many wrong facts in the original post that I don't even know where to start.

I grow tired of this cartel-mob based attitude where you advocate for everything against the betterment of the game, in interest of self-benefit.

Anyone who is even slightly objective about this can see the abuse.

Honnestly I just don't get your post. It's either inaccurate or you don't understand the guild trader system or I just don't get it.

Can you sunmerise the salient points of the perceived problem? You think the tax level is too low and would like it to be variable to make paying for traders easier?? It's just unclear

Amunari · August 2020

nukk3r wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader.

Tbh, this statement invalidated your whole point. The tax is 7% and the guild keeps 3.5%.

Amunari wrote: »

If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 500k a week income.

Well, it would be an ideal situation. About a third of any guild can't meet the quota no matter how low it is.

The tax could be 1% and it does not matter. the fact that its even lower proves that it is more toxic then thought. If 3.5% Could breed that much toxicity, its event worse.

Our guild focus's on building players up and uses a concept "if the player is strong, the guild is strong, if the player is wealthy, so to is the guild", most guilds fall in the "if the guild is wealthy, the players are" which is not even close to being true.

This is why our guild events are made in the aspect of teaching people how and where to get gold, and exchanging some of that activity for the guilds benefit as an entity. It is a far better system significantly more efficient for player and guild, then the current 3.5, 7, or 10% what ever tax nonsense.

etchedpixels wrote: »

It would improve things no end if they simply added a load more trader slots, or for that matter had all the wandering traders biddable or a wandering trader sweepstake.

the problem with adding more traders is that is devalues the trade bids, which means less gold will go out of the game by invalidating the sink. So, more traders is not an option unless it is distributed in a such a way that effects all guilds. often in games like this, repairs are the major form of sink for the games currency (in this case gold) so, as a guild related one will be far more effective at its job then the bid system. Under these conditions the bid system becomes invalidated, and as a result, it can be removed.

Adding more traders just gives up places to shop around while hurting the economy, and that is not good for the player or the game.

I am interested in your sweepstake concept, if you have a more flushed out idea.

rrimöykk · August 2020

10=100k, 500=500k? Logic. Too many false facts to correct so I'll just pass.

Amunari · August 2020

I'd personally like to look into changing the traders to being some sort of wandering npc for guilds, or some sort of buff that can do something like remove some of the posting fee's on the store. I think this would benefit the trade guilds farm more.

It would be really interesting to change the guild listing system in a way that a guild can declare itself for a single purpose, and get a special reward as a result of that.

For example, trade guilds get traders, where pvp guilds get some sort of castle or access to a castle bid system in cyrodiil, and through that always keep that castle (just having to repair it when its attacked). In this case, the castle would be destroyed, instead of captured and some how augmenting cyro as a result of that destroyed concept.

nukk3r · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader.

Tbh, this statement invalidated your whole point. The tax is 7% and the guild keeps 3.5%.

Amunari wrote: »

If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 500k a week income.

Well, it would be an ideal situation. About a third of any guild can't meet the quota no matter how low it is.

The tax could be 1% and it does not matter. the fact that its even lower proves that it is more toxic then thought. If 3.5% Could breed that much toxicity, its event worse.

Our guild focus's on building players up and uses a concept "if the player is strong, the guild is strong, if the player is wealthy, so to is the guild", most guilds fall in the "if the guild is wealthy, the players are" which is not even close to being true.

This is why our guild events are made in the aspect of teaching people how and where to get gold, and exchanging some of that activity for the guilds benefit as an entity. It is a far better system significantly more efficient for player and guild, then the current 3.5, 7, or 10% what ever tax nonsense.

Any trading guild gives you the access to a certain kiosk. Wealthy guild means better place. Your guildies are your competitors, they will undercut you at any given moment. But everyone agrees to these terms in order to sell their goods at better places.

So you're basically taking gold for something that can be googled?

VaranisArano · August 2020

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).

No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

Amunari · August 2020

nukk3r wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader.

Tbh, this statement invalidated your whole point. The tax is 7% and the guild keeps 3.5%.

Amunari wrote: »

If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 500k a week income.

Well, it would be an ideal situation. About a third of any guild can't meet the quota no matter how low it is.

The tax could be 1% and it does not matter. the fact that its even lower proves that it is more toxic then thought. If 3.5% Could breed that much toxicity, its event worse.

Our guild focus's on building players up and uses a concept "if the player is strong, the guild is strong, if the player is wealthy, so to is the guild", most guilds fall in the "if the guild is wealthy, the players are" which is not even close to being true.

This is why our guild events are made in the aspect of teaching people how and where to get gold, and exchanging some of that activity for the guilds benefit as an entity. It is a far better system significantly more efficient for player and guild, then the current 3.5, 7, or 10% what ever tax nonsense.

Any trading guild gives you the access to a certain kiosk. Wealthy guild means better place. Your guildies are your competitors, they will undercut you at any given moment. But everyone agrees to these terms in order to sell their goods at better places.

So you're basically taking gold for something that can be googled?

No, a wealthy guild does not mean a better price. It may depending on the item, mean a faster sell, but that is all. The price is set by TTC/MT, not a traders location.

Everyone that posts on a store is a competitor. that is why i trade in chat, and encourage others to do so. It's faster, has no tax, and has no underbidding nonsense to deal with.

Why people have not caught on to how abusive the trade guilds are in this respect alone is beyond me, but i am dead-set on spreading this to such a point that it completely invalidates traders, and subsequently your abusive trader-guild culture.

Amunari · August 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).

No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

1. Is a complete and utter lie and i am growing tired of guilds trying to hide legitimate trading behind "oh, but the spam" argument.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

All of this aside, you still have not proven your culture/methodologies are abusive.

Side note: I dont care what the tax % is, it does not matter. The entire mechanic itself is responsible for abuse. It needs to be deleted, a g guild should not be making gold off this aspect of the game, its not efficient and its abusive in eso specifically (iv seen it abusive in other games also, btw)

[Edit to remove bait]

Nairinhe · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

As someone who pops in and out of the game for a few weeks/months here and there, the Guild Trading System is wholly inadequate and essentially shoehorns me into spamming WTS in chat. Which in turn makes me not bother at all.

I am not sure I could come up with a worse system for buyers, nor could I for casual sellers like myself. No trade guild would want me, nor would I be invited back, and frankly I would not blame them because it is the system as it is set up now that causues the "go big or go home" trading guilds.

You know, iv been kicked from 21 guilds in the last 2 weeks because of posting wts/wtb in chat, that is the only reason. It really makes you think about how horrible the trade-guild culture is at current. Its a really abusive, highly toxic issue.

Well, if you consciously disregard rules of some group, you can't play surprised Pikachu when you stop being part of that group. Like, you could've just leave if you didn't like their rules.

redgreensunset · August 2020

So, we're beating a dead horse again? Anyone want to borrow a bat?

Amunari · August 2020

Nairinhe wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

As someone who pops in and out of the game for a few weeks/months here and there, the Guild Trading System is wholly inadequate and essentially shoehorns me into spamming WTS in chat. Which in turn makes me not bother at all.

I am not sure I could come up with a worse system for buyers, nor could I for casual sellers like myself. No trade guild would want me, nor would I be invited back, and frankly I would not blame them because it is the system as it is set up now that causues the "go big or go home" trading guilds.

You know, iv been kicked from 21 guilds in the last 2 weeks because of posting wts/wtb in chat, that is the only reason. It really makes you think about how horrible the trade-guild culture is at current. Its a really abusive, highly toxic issue.

Well, if you consciously disregard rules of some group, you can't play surprised Pikachu when you stop being part of that group. Like, you could've just leave if you didn't like their rules.

I'd much rather do something about the problem for the next guy. That is why every one of those guilds got an ear full about how bad of approach they were taking and how in 15 minutes of numbers i could produce significantly more then they could.

Nairinhe · August 2020

redgreensunset wrote: »

So, we're beating a dead horse again? Anyone want to borrow a bat?

Look at my horse, my horse is amazing, it is so dead that it's dried up like a raisin...

tsaescishoeshiner · August 2020

My trade guild has 100k weekly sales minimum. I feel no pressure or toxicity at all from my guild. I think this how the vast majority of people feel, no?

I don't want to see my guild chat FULL of wts/wtb. The occasional one or two is fine, of course. Controversial take: guild chat is for chatting 🤯

I've read the original post several times, and don't see what's meant to be abusive nor why. I'm open to change, this post is just a very one-sided opinion that doesn't consider other perspectives

Amunari · August 2020

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

My trade guild has 100k weekly sales minimum. I feel no pressure or toxicity at all from my guild. I think this how the vast majority of people feel, no?

I don't want to see my guild chat FULL of wts/wtb. The occasional one or two is fine, of course. Controversial take: guild chat is for chatting 🤯

I've read the original post several times, and don't see what's meant to be abusive nor why. I'm open to change, this post is just a very one-sided opinion that doesn't consider other perspectives

ironically, in most of those guilds mentioned i was told not to talk. Can you believe that? it's insane. I agree completely, but more to the point trade guilds really just dont have a collective objective out side of feeding the guild bank gold, and imo thats not a good thing to unite behind.

2. What other Perspectives exactly? are you not doing that also?

It may be interesting to have some zos designers investigate the claims of abuse here and if things could be better.

most importantly the fact that every guild has the same structure and rules shows that this is a feature, and not a guild. This proves strongly that there is abuse. Guilds should be about the people, the objectives they have as a community and their walk to that set of goals of objectives. That is not at all how you describe trade guilds in eso.

VaranisArano · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).

No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

1. Is a complete and utter lie and i am growing tired of guilds trying to hide legitimate trading behind "oh, but the spam" argument.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

All of this aside, you still have not proven your culture/methodologies are abusive.

Side note: I dont care what the tax % is, it does not matter. The entire mechanic itself is responsible for abuse. It needs to be deleted, a g guild should not be making gold off this aspect of the game, its not efficient and its abusive in eso specifically (iv seen it abusive in other games also, btw)

Your argument will be worlds stronger if you actually have correct numbers. And if you refrain claiming posters are lying.

I personally do not mind the 7% tax. Why not?

For one, gold sinks like the 3.5% that ZOS takes (very similar to the COD fee) benefit everyone by keeping gold inflation low. Similarly, every guild I've been in folds that 3.5% sales tax into their guild bid.

However, let's look at the "abusive" systems of making profit that my guild uses. When I trade at my maximum, I tend to sell around 1 million gold a week from my guild (mostly raw mats, reagents, and nirncrux, sold for slightly under market price). That's a meager 35k in sales tax for my guild, 35k for ZOS, while I keep 93% or 930k in profit. That's considerably more profit margin than I would keep from a 50/50 event like your Thieves event. It also gives me an enormous disposable income with which to pay guild fees, donate, purchase auction lots, or buy raffle tickets to support the guild...or even just horde it, because I totally made my minimal sales requirement of 25k a week. I think it's clear that a 7% tax is not exactly harming me.

Don't get me wrong. I think a fun activity like stealing with your guildmates and donating 50% of proceeds to the guild is a cool idea to fund your guild with guildies who like making some gold that way. Hopefully guilds have officers willing to donate their time to organize crowd-funding events like that, just like they already organize auctions and raffles.

But when I look at making profit and then reinvesting in a guild I like...I'll be honest, my guild and I get way more out of me farming, then trading the usual way, even with the 7% tax. There's room for all types in ESO.

Amunari · August 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).

No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

1. Is a complete and utter lie and i am growing tired of guilds trying to hide legitimate trading behind "oh, but the spam" argument.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

All of this aside, you still have not proven your culture/methodologies are abusive.

Side note: I dont care what the tax % is, it does not matter. The entire mechanic itself is responsible for abuse. It needs to be deleted, a g guild should not be making gold off this aspect of the game, its not efficient and its abusive in eso specifically (iv seen it abusive in other games also, btw)

Your argument will be worlds stronger if you actually have correct numbers. And if you refrain claiming posters are lying.

I personally do not mind the 7% tax. Why not?

For one, gold sinks like the 3.5% that ZOS takes (very similar to the COD fee) benefit everyone by keeping gold inflation low. Similarly, every guild I've been in folds that 3.5% sales tax into their guild bid.

However, let's look at the "abusive" systems of making profit that my guild uses. When I trade at my maximum, I tend to sell around 1 million gold a week from my guild (mostly raw mats, reagents, and nirncrux, sold for slightly under market price). That's a meager 35k in sales tax for my guild, 35k for ZOS, while I keep 93% or 930k in profit. That's considerably more profit margin than I would keep from a 50/50 event like your Thieves event. It also gives me an enormous disposable income with which to pay guild fees, donate, purchase auction lots, or buy raffle tickets to support the guild...or even just horde it, because I totally made my minimal sales requirement of 25k a week. I think it's clear that a 7% tax is not exactly harming me.

Don't get me wrong. I think a fun activity like stealing with your guildmates and donating 50% of proceeds to the guild is a cool idea to fund your guild with guildies who like making some gold that way. Hopefully guilds have officers willing to donate their time to organize crowd-funding events like that, just like they already organize auctions and raffles.

But when I look at making profit and then reinvesting in a guild I like...I'll be honest, my guild and I get way more out of me farming, then trading the usual way, even with the 7% tax. There's room for all types in ESO.

The average player does not make 1m gold a week, or a day for that matter. Those of us doing multi-millions a week are the top of the trader block. This issue becomes much more serious for those selling sub-100k a week in items, at that rate 7k is a lot for them. With out a doubt, these taxes are not generating significant amounts of the guilds income to pay for those high bid traders. The majority of that income likely comes from events like raffles.

I think after being in 21 guilds, and currently in another 4 trade guilds, I have a very good idea of the games guild-trade culture, and i am pretty sure there is little you can do to sway me from this position being that i have experienced it first hand on many occasions for the last few months.

A side note, its not about the gold your making or the tax your paying. If this is the read you got on this post, it is totally wrong. The fact that guilds are using tax from the trade system to make their gold that is the problem. If the gold was made through selling of items it would benefit all guilds, and not require trade guilds to be abusive with anti-trading, anti-social rules.

So all of you saying this %, or i make this or that, you can stop with "its only 35k" type arguments, because its not about the money, its about what the system of tax on trading is doing to guilds and how they interact with their playerbase.

btw, i dont care about the 3.5% that zos takes, that has no impact on the guilds itself.

Jeremy · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

This system is highly abusive to the player base. Some Major revisions to it, or the entire system needs a design pass.

Any time any game has a guild working like a feature (ie like group dungeons, the guild store etc), there is a major problem in the design of that aspect of the game. In this case, there is a massive amount of abuse, toxicity, and an utter freezing of player-interaction because of the way the current system works. The cause of the problem seems to be the 10% tax system that is generated off sales in a guilds trader. This seems to be the primary focus of the guilds income, however it is an extremely inefficient form of income for guild through the majority of players.

To demonstrate this i will use some numbers we ran with my guild through investigation of supporting higher level traders.

lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week, with a 10% tax rate, that grants the guild income of 100,000 gold a week. This is enough to pay for a very basic trader, and even then its skeptical.
If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 5m a week income. this is not even enough to come close to the upper-trader locations. The guilds know it and as a result the majority of the rest of the traders weekly fee's are carried usually by 3-5 officers. This puts an insane amount of pressure on them, and they in return breed that pressure onto the rest of the guild population.

Lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week with a 3.5% Tax rate this generates 35k a week. For up to 500 players, 1.75m A week. This is not even half of the required value for high end traders.

Already from this point we can see everyone is abused from the current design

Now we come to Alternative means of income, Like guild events. In the case of my guild we generate 7,000 gold for the guild and players respectively in the same sitting of 15-20 minutes. This is ran daily. This means over the course of 7 days we generate 3.5m for the players and the guild minimum (those with higher ledgermain generate up to 10 million respectively for the two a week.

This means that the income rates of the systems we are running are over 3 times more efficient for both the player and the guild.

On the topic of "no wtb/wts" in guild chat

There are some guilds, or even many guilds that have this rule. What they fail to understand is that this rule is funneling things through the trader, which is milking the gold out of the guilds economy over time. In time (maybe a long while) the guilds economic power will decline. Guilds should be encouraging this type of behavior because the money players make, the more they trade, and this encourages more tax income in the guild, not less. People are stuck in this "trader meta" but its a really bad meta that needs to be addressed.

Now we come to some bigger issues.

It cannot be ignored that the bidding system likely can dump up to 1.5 billion a week in gold (well at least by the numbers i am aware for traders prices etc) across the 197 traders (if not more added in greymoor).

This seems to suggest to us that any improvement must leave in place a system that is equal to it in sinking gold out of the economy. As designers we are aware when it comes to economic balance that consistency is far more effective as opposed to bursts of gold going out of the economy.

Putting it all together
from the above we learn

- The current "traders in specific locations" needs to be adjusted to "area's specific collections of guilds" instead of individual guild stalls. So lets say each area now that has a collection of 1-10 stalls (or what ever it is based on zone) now has one stall, which has multiple trade guilds listing in it. This is kept intact to keep that aspect the players like, which is "shopping around for deals".Its important to note that there is no major drawback to consolidating the traders in one area, since its really just a few steps away and anyone visiting is likely using TTC website, which means they know exactly what is where, and for how much.

to those that argue against this already, i will advocate the keeping of individual stalls if you will agree to block API access to TTC website, so that you cannot pull pricing anywhere, because if your argument for individual stalls is in fact to shop around, TTC Invalidates that, and as a result your argument becomes invalidated.

- It would be far more beneficial for the game to enable paying for traders for guilds as an buy option after a set number of players, then have this bidding system. Lets place this at 50 members
- Guilds should not pay more then 500k a week, this should be capped.
- Some better structure for trader locations should be investigated.
- Everyone should have a trader.
- It might be interesting to have a new mechanic where there is "mobile traders" that move around while randomly buying things from traders and shifting them from one to the other. This may help improve economic viscosity.
- We should investigate adding a new improved taxing system to the game that taxes players automatically when they sell items to vendors, and loot at removing guild income from traders/guild store.

This should be sufficient to start a discussion about the above.

This is what I think they should do.

First: add a search system into the base game like Tamrieltradecentre.com already has (and most people already use) with the added option to teleport to the area with the desired trader (if it's DLC and you don't have have access can't use it).

Second: let everyone set up a trader of their own inside their player prime residence.

Third: Problem solved.

That way those who are so in love with the current guild trader system can keep it. They can keep spending vast sums of gold to compete with one another for the prime selling locations like Mournhold etc. Everyone else has the option to sell their goods through the homestead system just so long as other players are willing to come to their individual homes to buy them. This also keeps the market divided and avoids the large populations associated with global auction house hubs so player concerns about any extra lag are taken care of. Everyone wins.

JKorr · August 2020

Amunari wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

So many wrong facts in the original post that I don't even know where to start.

I grow tired of this cartel-mob based attitude where you advocate for everything against the betterment of the game, in interest of self-benefit.

Anyone who is even slightly objective about this can see the abuse.

No, not really. "Anyone" however objective they might be can't really see abuse that has no evidence and seems to be based in personal subjective opinion.

I am not familiar with console versions, so any experience I've had is just for pc. While there have been console players who have come to the forums and bragged about how they abuse the system and use intimidation and harassment to run their guilds like a mafia family, I haven't seen anyone present evidence of the trading guild mafia, with gms scamming gold and raking in millions for personal gain for pc.

As a matter of fact, the exact opposite; the OMG TRADING GUILDS ARE
R SCAMMING PLAYERS STICK IT TO DA MAN!!!!!! person/persons who won all the traders in Rawl'kha and tried to say all the bids were won under 7 million each. That kinda sorta didn't work, when one of the gms who bid on their usual spot in Rawl'kha and LOST the bid got fed up with the bs high-fiving, and posted her losing bid. Remember, one gm bidding on one kiosk; losing bid was 22,568,941 gold. So the brave group of POWATOTEHPEOPLE rebels "proved" there was a cartel/mafia keeping people out of rawl'kha with some kind of conspiracy, and the bids were really actually very cheap actually lied. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6072752/#Comment_6072752

There are trading guilds who charge dues and want high sales amounts; probably focused for people who actually enjoy playing trading as part of their endgame. However there are guilds that have no dues, no sale requirements, and ask for *voluntary* participation in raffles/auctions to help support bids for a trader. For the players who want to sell stuff, but aren't concentrating on making billions of gold a week, those guilds work great. When even casual pve guilds can get a trader, it is hard to get people to believe the whole system is abusing players who don't want to do nothing except trading.

Nothing is stopping someone who plays on an irregular basis and gets kicked from guilds for inactivity to have a guild slot for joining a guild with no requirements for dues or sales and has a trader, posting their items for sale, and after the items sell, dropping the guild and moving on. No one from ESO/ ZOS shows up with lawyers and contracts to legally lock you into a guild.