ESO Trader System needs to go, Immediately

SammiSakura

I'm just posting this so I can find this thread later on today, and wholly laugh at the utter ignorance, and lack of basic maths skills here xD

idk

Amunari wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I would expect the social guilds would struggle with obtaining traders as that is not their focus, hence they do not have the experience in how to manage it as well as lacking the support from their members. Heck, most social guilds with large rosters do not manage the roster to make sure everyone is actually active with the guild. Most of the members probably do not even know if and when the guild has a trader and likely do not care because they are already in a trade guild.

Further, I have never been charged by any trading guilds I have been in and my trade guilds are in major cities. I do have to actually sell something but even that requirement is very low.

The lack of guilds having access to a trader just hurts trading and the economy as a whole, why traders who want gold would not advocate for more chances of finding something incorrectly priced and re-posting it for a profit is beyond me. However, after being in almost 30 guilds with trade focus (some highly successful with good trade locations) i can tell you it is absolutely normal to require minimums a week, and even to show up to or participate in events.

I have tried to correct what was done wrong with the quote and reply to what I have quoted here.

Considering the number of trade guilds that are recruiting there is plenty of room for people to get into trade guilds. Further, it is intended that not every guild will get a trader.

I also never suggested there are no minimums with well-managed trade guilds. I am in one that has never made me pay money but has required a modest sales quota which makes sense. I am also in a guild that often has a trader but that is not their focus and they have no requirements concerning the trader. The spectrum is wide.

I will also point out that @anitajoneb17_ESO and @VaranisArano have made solid points to incorrect information in the OP, some of which have since been edited out. Varanis did a good job specifically pointing some of them out here and here.

I dont care about what the tax % is, because its not an issue of the % of taxes, be it 10%, 7%, or 3.5% The point was made clear after those posts that the fact that guilds are using this as their primary way to collect income is causing rules and cultural normals that are abusive.

So the argument about the % is utter nonsense, because we are not addressing economics here, we are addressing the issue of the byproduct of a bad form of income, one thats not even efficient for a guild in the first place.


What ever designer said "lets make a limited amount of people that can access the market" imo, should go back to mc-donalds. Its clear they do not know how to do their job.

Players advocating for this system imo, are just advocating for exploitation of others, and really have no invested interest in the health of the game.


"as for no minimums" show me a list of guilds with 5m+ weekly bids, that do not have any requirements.

Amunari wrote: »

lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week, with a 10% tax rate, that grants the guild income of 100,000 gold a week. This is enough to pay for a very basic trader, and even then its skeptical.
If we magnify this up to 500 players we will get up to 5m a week income. this is not even enough to come close to the upper-trader locations. The guilds know it and as a result the majority of the rest of the traders weekly fee's are carried usually by 3-5 officers. This puts an insane amount of pressure on them, and they in return breed that pressure onto the rest of the guild population.

Lets assume 10 players trade 100k a week with a 3.5% Tax rate this generates 35k a week. For up to 500 players, 1.75m A week. This is not even half of the required value for high end traders.

The premise of the so-called exploitation is based on this information. @VaranisArano already provided the correct information that very much called into question the assumptions being made here. More importantly, that correct information Varanis provided slices the ammount of revenue those traders get from the guilds sales which pretty much negates the argument.

That means the argument on percentages are the foundation of the claim made in the OP. As such they are not nonsense.

BTW, point out to me where I mentioned a guild had at least 5 million in weekly sales and I will provide a list of all guilds that have no requirements that sell that much weekly. Pretty sure I never made that claim as I have attempted to stick to accurate statements.

PizzaCat82

Personally encountered problems:
1. Guild chat being racist and sexist (not as much of an issue in my current guild but past guilds had this issue)
2. Previous Guild leader being harassed and left, which left the guild to another leader, who was harassed, and left. The guild was disbanded and we were forced to join the competing guilds if we wanted no more drama.
3. Several high lvl members completely clear out the guild bank with millions in mats
4. One high lvl member kicked over 100 players from our roster, many who refused to put up with any more guild drama. He was an officer in a different guild who were fighting with us but things seemed to be calm and we trusted him. Our leader made a huge mistake by letting him have kick permissions (but did not give him bank permissions at least)

Reasons why this is a system issue an not a player issue:
Most guild chat is in private discord, not in game. No action could be taken against anyone for plotting, harassing, or stealing from the guild. The players responsible are still playing, and still high ranking members of the rival guild.

If I want to trade, I had to join that rival guild. Why? Because they were the only guild that could guarantee a trader spot in a major city each week. Having 5 sister guilds and agreements with everyone else on which guild gets which trader each week.

This is not on PC-NA, despite the thoughts on the forum that other platforms don't exist.

Sylvermynx

Eh, there's never going to be a central selling location (AKA global AH or whatever). And while a global alternative would make me happy, it's not really necessary. I have enough gold just selling stuff to NPC vendors when it's stuff I don't want or need - plus doing writs - to keep my characters just fine. There's nothing much to spend gold on really (for me anyway) - some bits from Zanil Theran occasionally.

I've no use for guilds, and that's a personal thing. So obviously, I have no horse in this race. I made a fair amount of gold in WoW and RIFT using the GAH, but it wasn't an imperative.... and guess what? It's all still sitting there since I no longer play either game. Gold is a LOT easier to come by here than in those games.

Amunari

Spearpoint wrote: »

Didn't ZOS recently make it easier for players to sort through stuff at guild traders for those not using add-ons? A bit of topic, bit that was appreciated!

And I'm going to argue against consolidating all guild traders in a place to one sinngle NPC, on the sheer bases that I actually want to physically shop around, and to not ruin the immersion, to an extent. Shopping around, alongside crafting, is one of the main times I actually walk/run around from booth to booth like an actual person. And I like that.

Yeah sure, it would be effective, but i think that when one guild have one trader, it makes the areas more lively. Otherwise, people would just pile up like they do in front of bankers (which is more understandable IMO) before dast-travelling away.

The guild I run doesn't use a guild trader, so I can't speak much of this case from that approach, but what if there was a tax when buying from the guild traders as well? In order to encourage to more trading within a guild, and make it a bit less important to get the good spots? Or would that just be silly?

thats not what i said.

I said consolidate them at each location. For example, all the vardenfell into 1 trader.

VaranisArano

Amunari wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Lets assume those said leaders and officers skimmed. Even if they skimmed 10k, that they needed to buy something for 100k and re-post for 200k, their money becomes corrupted and over time, large amounts of their wealth as a result were due to skimming, cheating, and so forth.

[snip]

Let's maybe not assume. I have been an officer in a trading guild, and did not ever skim or take anything from the guild for my time and effort.

What would have been the point?
I chose to support the guild with my time, effort, and donations because it was a good trading guild for me, and I could. Skimming would have hurt the Guild and my guildmates. In addition to, you know, being an immoral thing to do.

Plus, enriching myself is as simple as running another Craglorn loop...and selling the results on my guild store. Easy to make 10k that way all from my own effort. Why would I skim?

And I don't think I'm a saint among guild officers. Most are unpaid volunteers doing it for enjoyment or wanting to provide a service for their guildmates.

Nairinhe

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Personally encountered problems:
1. Guild chat being racist and sexist (not as much of an issue in my current guild but past guilds had this issue)
2. Previous Guild leader being harassed and left, which left the guild to another leader, who was harassed, and left. The guild was disbanded and we were forced to join the competing guilds if we wanted no more drama.
3. Several high lvl members completely clear out the guild bank with millions in mats
4. One high lvl member kicked over 100 players from our roster, many who refused to put up with any more guild drama. He was an officer in a different guild who were fighting with us but things seemed to be calm and we trusted him. Our leader made a huge mistake by letting him have kick permissions (but did not give him bank permissions at least)

Reasons why this is a system issue an not a player issue:
Most guild chat is in private discord, not in game. No action could be taken against anyone for plotting, harassing, or stealing from the guild. The players responsible are still playing, and still high ranking members of the rival guild.

If I want to trade, I had to join that rival guild. Why? Because they were the only guild that could guarantee a trader spot in a major city each week. Having 5 sister guilds and agreements with everyone else on which guild gets which trader each week.

This is not on PC-NA, despite the thoughts on the forum that other platforms don't exist.

Why stay with a guild if it's full of *** people in the first place?

Ratzkifal

I've been in a guild that allowed WTB and WTS in chat. It was a soulless guild that was 100% pure business and not a very friendly place either.
And I've been to a guild that doesn't allow WTB and WTS in chat. The chat is full of people socializing, organizing trials, people exchanging tips and tricks for trading and other things and you can in general just have a proper conversation without getting constantly interrupted by spam the way you are in zone chat [insert random guild recruitment copy-pasta here].

As for the tax, as people pointed out, the tax is there as a gold sink, which is good, and for the guild to collect enough money to secure a trader again the next week. Oh and, most guilds actually don't make enough money through the tax to secure a trader and need to ask for donations. It's either that or sale requirements. The money that's missing at the end of the week will be paid by the officers from their own pockets because they want to keep their guild running. If they don't, they would lose the trader and people would jump ship.
So if this is all an elaborate scheme to get the tax money then I doubt the trading guild would have lasted long and grown big in the first place. If someone were to do this, they'd lose their trader to a guild that doesn't do this almost immediately. The battle for trading spots has become a battle of attrition a long time ago.

So yeah. Coming back to the point about WTB and WTS in guild chat in relation to the tax. Allowing WTB and WTS in guild chat doesn't result in economic growth as you suggested. Not doing it doesn't drain the guild of money either. It's a neutral transaction when people in the same guild circumvent the tax by trading directly. The collective gold worth of the guild does not diminish, although they lost good that could have potentially brought in foreign money which isn't negative money but a loss of potential profit. At least if the item was sold within the guild through the trader, the tax would be collected and the guild as a whole would profit. After all, if you started selling all of your items in zone chat or guild chat and not in the trader there would be no money left for the next bid. So by putting some money in the bidding jar through the tax, the two individuals are helping everyone in their guild maintain the option of selling items on autopilot through the trader.

PizzaCat82

Nairinhe wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Personally encountered problems:
1. Guild chat being racist and sexist (not as much of an issue in my current guild but past guilds had this issue)
2. Previous Guild leader being harassed and left, which left the guild to another leader, who was harassed, and left. The guild was disbanded and we were forced to join the competing guilds if we wanted no more drama.
3. Several high lvl members completely clear out the guild bank with millions in mats
4. One high lvl member kicked over 100 players from our roster, many who refused to put up with any more guild drama. He was an officer in a different guild who were fighting with us but things seemed to be calm and we trusted him. Our leader made a huge mistake by letting him have kick permissions (but did not give him bank permissions at least)

Reasons why this is a system issue an not a player issue:
Most guild chat is in private discord, not in game. No action could be taken against anyone for plotting, harassing, or stealing from the guild. The players responsible are still playing, and still high ranking members of the rival guild.

If I want to trade, I had to join that rival guild. Why? Because they were the only guild that could guarantee a trader spot in a major city each week. Having 5 sister guilds and agreements with everyone else on which guild gets which trader each week.

This is not on PC-NA, despite the thoughts on the forum that other platforms don't exist.

Why stay with a guild if it's full of *** people in the first place?

Because trying to start my own guild and compete for the same resources would see my members harassed and blacklisted.

Amunari

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I've been in a guild that allowed WTB and WTS in chat. It was a soulless guild that was 100% pure business and not a very friendly place either.
And I've been to a guild that doesn't allow WTB and WTS in chat. The chat is full of people socializing, organizing trials, people exchanging tips and tricks for trading and other things and you can in general just have a proper conversation without getting constantly interrupted by spam the way you are in zone chat [insert random guild recruitment copy-pasta here].

As for the tax, as people pointed out, the tax is there as a gold sink, which is good, and for the guild to collect enough money to secure a trader again the next week. Oh and, most guilds actually don't make enough money through the tax to secure a trader and need to ask for donations. It's either that or sale requirements. The money that's missing at the end of the week will be paid by the officers from their own pockets because they want to keep their guild running. If they don't, they would lose the trader and people would jump ship.
So if this is all an elaborate scheme to get the tax money then I doubt the trading guild would have lasted long and grown big in the first place. If someone were to do this, they'd lose their trader to a guild that doesn't do this almost immediately. The battle for trading spots has become a battle of attrition a long time ago.

So yeah. Coming back to the point about WTB and WTS in guild chat in relation to the tax. Allowing WTB and WTS in guild chat doesn't result in economic growth as you suggested. Not doing it doesn't drain the guild of money either. It's a neutral transaction when people in the same guild circumvent the tax by trading directly. The collective gold worth of the guild does not diminish, although they lost good that could have potentially brought in foreign money which isn't negative money but a loss of potential profit. At least if the item was sold within the guild through the trader, the tax would be collected and the guild as a whole would profit. After all, if you started selling all of your items in zone chat or guild chat and not in the trader there would be no money left for the next bid. So by putting some money in the bidding jar through the tax, the two individuals are helping everyone in their guild maintain the option of selling items on autopilot through the trader.

being that iv been in 30 guilds that are trade based, I'm gona say with "bs" or "your the exception of the rule".

And yes, Wts/wtb in guild chat does effect the guilds economy.

Guyle

I mean, you don't need to start your own guild to find one that isnt run by a bunch of ***hats. There are plenty of good trading guilds with decent people in them.

PizzaCat82

Guyle wrote: »

I mean, you don't need to start your own guild to find one that isnt run by a bunch of ***hats. There are plenty of good trading guilds with decent people in them.

Decent people don't get the top spots, I've found. It may run differently on your platform, but I've found that drama tends to follow competition with scarce city traders.

I put millions into my original guild, and was one of the top officers. All for nothing. Guilds are not the answer to trading.

Ratzkifal

Amunari wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I've been in a guild that allowed WTB and WTS in chat. It was a soulless guild that was 100% pure business and not a very friendly place either.
And I've been to a guild that doesn't allow WTB and WTS in chat. The chat is full of people socializing, organizing trials, people exchanging tips and tricks for trading and other things and you can in general just have a proper conversation without getting constantly interrupted by spam the way you are in zone chat [insert random guild recruitment copy-pasta here].

As for the tax, as people pointed out, the tax is there as a gold sink, which is good, and for the guild to collect enough money to secure a trader again the next week. Oh and, most guilds actually don't make enough money through the tax to secure a trader and need to ask for donations. It's either that or sale requirements. The money that's missing at the end of the week will be paid by the officers from their own pockets because they want to keep their guild running. If they don't, they would lose the trader and people would jump ship.
So if this is all an elaborate scheme to get the tax money then I doubt the trading guild would have lasted long and grown big in the first place. If someone were to do this, they'd lose their trader to a guild that doesn't do this almost immediately. The battle for trading spots has become a battle of attrition a long time ago.

So yeah. Coming back to the point about WTB and WTS in guild chat in relation to the tax. Allowing WTB and WTS in guild chat doesn't result in economic growth as you suggested. Not doing it doesn't drain the guild of money either. It's a neutral transaction when people in the same guild circumvent the tax by trading directly. The collective gold worth of the guild does not diminish, although they lost good that could have potentially brought in foreign money which isn't negative money but a loss of potential profit. At least if the item was sold within the guild through the trader, the tax would be collected and the guild as a whole would profit. After all, if you started selling all of your items in zone chat or guild chat and not in the trader there would be no money left for the next bid. So by putting some money in the bidding jar through the tax, the two individuals are helping everyone in their guild maintain the option of selling items on autopilot through the trader.

being that iv been in 30 guilds that are trade based, I'm gona say with "bs" or "your the exception of the rule".

And yes, Wts/wtb in guild chat does effect the guilds economy.

And how so? Are you calculating the guild's economy by adding up the sum of all the transactions? That's not going to secure you another trader. You can have a huge economy and still not enough funds to secure your trader reliably if you calculate like that because no tax is collected.

If your analysis of the current situation is flawed, why should anyone take the conclusions based on these flawed assumptions seriously?

I'd like to know how exactly WTS and WTS in guild chat affect the guild's economy (positively), because you haven't really explained that at all.

Jeremy

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Well, you can believe it's just a coincidence if you like.

I know a lot of ESO players who work hard but don't have hundreds of millions of gold. One of the biggest frauds perpetuated on society is that everyone works hard for their money. That likely applies to video game society as well. But hey, if you want to discount that possibility then be my guest.

Amunari

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Guyle wrote: »

I mean, you don't need to start your own guild to find one that isnt run by a bunch of ***hats. There are plenty of good trading guilds with decent people in them.

Decent people don't get the top spots, I've found. It may run differently on your platform, but I've found that drama tends to follow competition with scarce city traders.

I put millions into my original guild, and was one of the top officers. All for nothing. Guilds are not the answer to trading.

As one of the "top players" for many games, including wow pvp (current) i can tell you this is 110% truth. Almost all top 100 players in wow are cheating either with hacks, bots, or are in groups with people doing it.

Drama is independent of guilds, but this is not about guild drama, or progression for the most part.

This is about a deeper issue, one that is at the heart of the game, namely that every aspect of a game should be based around a guild, and that guild should have objectives, and goals to accomplished. Traders in eso are just not enough for that. Trade guilds need more, and traders or public trading in eso should just be a tool, like addons for raiding.

Imo, trade guilds need something far greater, and more impact for their existence, something so valuable and advantageous that all others desire it. if there was one trader in the game, i'd might be enough, but there is not, there is 197 of them and even beyond that point if only one could be accomplished it would prevent others from having progression so traders themselves are not a good source of "progression" for trade guilds to start with.

Traders need something, like a city that has access to all traders, an outlet that lets them scan all the traders in the game, That is the type of thing that trade guilds need, and they should work on it, and fight for it. I dont think the bidding system is a good way to gate access to this benefit, or even if that benefit should be access to all traders from one vendor, but the point is that these guilds need greatness, and in the way they interact, the way they treat people, and the clear abuse officers/leaders take from skimming, and the way they talk to people...it is just not there.

We can do better. Lets aspire to greatness, not settle for grand-theft and the mass embezzlement of money.

People are the blood of a game, and the heart are the guilds. the heart needs people to beat, and the people need the heart to be moved to their content, and the people need each other to complete it. With out both working in a pure, natural cyclical manner, the game ceases to exist

Thus we learn there are three core concepts to each type of player, and guild (pvp, pve, trading, etc)

- players have a psychological mindset they "need guilds" like they need air
- guilds have a psychological mindset they "need players" like they need air
- Players have the psychological mindset that they need "others in their guild" to accomplish their objectives, which give progression like the numbers on an exp bar to their goal.
- the game needs a way to motivate both players and guilds into an endless cycle of progression, though this cycle is often endless because of content additions.

Ratzkifal

Jeremy wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Well, you can believe it's just a coincidence if you like.

I know a lot of ESO players who work hard but don't have hundreds of millions of gold.

It all depends where you work hard. Working hard in PvP doesn't get you very rich (unless we are talking about IC). Working hard in Housing actually only makes you poor. Working hard in PvE gets you rich if you sell the items you are getting. I am fairly sure working hard in trading by definition should get you rich.
Although, there is also working smart...

ZaroktheImmortal

JKorr wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

idk wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

As someone who is in guilds more related to social content I can say they struggle with trying to make money for bids and it's just extra stress on them. The only people who benefit is the trade guilds charging members to be part of their guild.

I would expect the social guilds would struggle with obtaining traders as that is not their focus, hence they do not have the experience in how to manage it as well as lacking the support from their members. Heck, most social guilds with large rosters do not manage the roster to make sure everyone is actually active with the guild. Most of the members probably do not even know if and when the guild has a trader and likely do not care because they are already in a trade guild.

Further, I have never been charged by any trading guilds I have been in and my trade guilds are in major cities. I do have to actually sell something but even that requirement is very low.

And social guilds have to compete with this because people need a trader to sell stuff or spam zone chat and not everyone wants to be in a trade guild so social and content related guilds are stuck with the stress of trying to raise money for traders.

If the people who want to use a casual guild to trade are content with a trader that lets their items be sold without demanding a high traffic area it is doable. Currently I'm in 5 guilds; one is a no dues/no sale amount required trading guild, three are casual guilds no dues/no sales required who all have a trader, and the last one just started so we have a guild store, not a trader, yet.

I'd rather have slots for guilds with doing stuff I enjoy with people than just having to use up slots so I can trade. Why should trade guilds have a corner on the market? Also isn't this unhealthy for new guilds starting up since people will more likely save slots for ones that have traders?

Jeremy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Well, you can believe it's just a coincidence if you like.

I know a lot of ESO players who work hard but don't have hundreds of millions of gold.

It all depends where you work hard. Working hard in PvP doesn't get you very rich (unless we are talking about IC). Working hard in Housing actually only makes you poor. Working hard in PvE gets you rich if you sell the items you are getting. I am fairly sure working hard in trading by definition should get you rich.
Although, there is also working smart...

Skimming off the top and ripping your guild off can get you rich as well.

Now if you want to believe that's never happened and everyone who is rich on ESO has done so solely due to their own individual hard work then you are welcome to believe that. I've been in enough guilds however to know that's not the only way people get rich. haha

Ratzkifal

Jeremy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Well, you can believe it's just a coincidence if you like.

I know a lot of ESO players who work hard but don't have hundreds of millions of gold.

It all depends where you work hard. Working hard in PvP doesn't get you very rich (unless we are talking about IC). Working hard in Housing actually only makes you poor. Working hard in PvE gets you rich if you sell the items you are getting. I am fairly sure working hard in trading by definition should get you rich.
Although, there is also working smart...

Skimming off the top and ripping your guild off can get you rich as well.

Now if you want to believe that's never happened and everyone who is rich on ESO has done so solely due to their own individual hard work then you are welcome to believe that. I've been in enough guilds however to know that's not the only way people get rich. haha

As I pointed out in an earlier post, skimming off and robbing your own guild of its funds, will and has, whenever it happened, led to the ruin of the guild. You skim off and a guild that doesn't do this will take your spot, leaving you without income because sales dry up as people leave your guild for not being able to secure a trader anymore.

Now I am not a fool. I know a lot of the very richest players have made their money through shady business, but I sincerely doubt that skimming is what made them rich. Using armies of bots to farm raw materials on the other hand is definitely something that some of them are doing. We know these bot trains exist and we know there must be someone profitting off of them. The possibility of using farm bots is an entirely different can of worms though and can (and should) be addressed outside of general criticism of the trader system.

If my lazy butt was able to collect 8 million (which puts me in the top 10% of the richest players btw) without putting in effort and keeping my 30 trading slots empty most weeks, then I am sure someone actually dedicated to trading would be able to make tens of millions regularly using ethical methods only.

Jeremy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Well, you can believe it's just a coincidence if you like.

I know a lot of ESO players who work hard but don't have hundreds of millions of gold.

It all depends where you work hard. Working hard in PvP doesn't get you very rich (unless we are talking about IC). Working hard in Housing actually only makes you poor. Working hard in PvE gets you rich if you sell the items you are getting. I am fairly sure working hard in trading by definition should get you rich.
Although, there is also working smart...

Skimming off the top and ripping your guild off can get you rich as well.

Now if you want to believe that's never happened and everyone who is rich on ESO has done so solely due to their own individual hard work then you are welcome to believe that. I've been in enough guilds however to know that's not the only way people get rich. haha

As I pointed out in an earlier post, skimming off and robbing your own guild of its funds, will and has, whenever it happened, led to the ruin of the guild. You skim off and a guild that doesn't do this will take your spot, leaving you without income because sales dry up as people leave your guild for not being able to secure a trader anymore.

Now I am not a fool. I know a lot of the very richest players have made their money through shady business, but I sincerely doubt that skimming is what made them rich. Using armies of bots to farm raw materials on the other hand is definitely something that some of them are doing. We know these bot trains exist and we know there must be someone profitting off of them. The possibility of using farm bots is an entirely different can of worms though and can (and should) be addressed outside of general criticism of the trader system.

If my lazy butt was able to collect 8 million (which puts me in the top 10% of the richest players btw) without putting in effort and keeping my 30 trading slots empty most weeks, then I am sure someone actually dedicated to trading would be able to make tens of millions regularly using ethical methods only.

I've been in guilds that have robbed their members blind. Sometimes they disband as a result. Other times there is just a major split. And for everyone that gets caught there is probably at least 2 that get away with it.. So we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

freespirit

@Amunari the fact that you state you have been in 30 trade guilds suggests to me you have yet to find your home!

I have been in maybe one more than the ones I m in now...... I am an officer in two, the management of these guilds work tirelessly to provide fun stuff to do and to raise enough funds to maintain a decent trader.....

The fact you think people actually skim profits for their own benefit shows a complete lack of knowledge of the costs of running a trade guild!!

More often than not guild management are supporting their guild with gold from their own pocket AND happily do that to maintain a happy place for people to be!!!

Cloudtrader

I think we should keep the trader system and add 3 auction houses, 1 in each alliance capitol, where people can list ONE item. That would allow the regular Guild Trading system to keep on keeping on, and give everyone access to a high value auction system where they can list their 3 top-price items. People not in trading guilds could then make some money outside of zone chat and we can add another gold sink into the economy if the auction houses had a commission fee.

EllieBlue

[/quote]

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^[/quote]

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?[/quote]

Lets assume those said leaders and officers skimmed. Even if they skimmed 10k, that they needed to buy something for 100k and re-post for 200k, their money becomes corrupted and over time, large amounts of their wealth as a result were due to skimming, cheating, and so forth.

Its unreasonable to believe that every human is free of these things, no, almost for sure they have all cheated or skimmed at one time or another, so Yes, they are doing things that are not so good, and yes, its unlikely/probably the case they are cheaters.[/quote]

It is unreasonable to not assume that this thread is created by the OP to scam us all for his forum stars. It is unreasonable to believe that he, a human being, is above this behaviour. Can scamming and trolling for forum stars be considered cheating? Yes, it is probably the case.

ps: this reply will probably, most likely, get deleted by mods but really, come on... seriously, his reply above surely rings the troll siren. No?

Ratzkifal

freespirit wrote: »

@Amunari the fact that you state you have been in 30 trade guilds suggests to me you have yet to find your home!

I have been in maybe one more than the ones I m in now...... I am an officer in two, the management of these guilds work tirelessly to provide fun stuff to do and to raise enough funds to maintain a decent trader.....

The fact you think people actually skim profits for their own benefit shows a complete lack of knowledge of the costs of running a trade guild!!

More often than not guild management are supporting their guild with gold from their own pocket AND happily do that to maintain a happy place for people to be!!!

You must obviously be one of those 2-in-3 skimmers that secretly rob people for their own benefit and never get caught in the disguise of a fun guild that's actually pleasant to be in as opposed to guilds with chats exclusively made of WTS and WTB messages.

Jeremy

lol

Looks like I hit a nerve with that comment.

I really don't understand where all this defensiveness is coming from. If a person doesn't skim or rob from their guild then my post obviously has nothing to do with this person.

So why take this comment so personally? I don't get it.

If you're confident no guilds on this game skim or rob from their members then that's all that should matter to you. My experiences (and from looks of it Amunari's as well) have taught us otherwise. But that's ok. Two people can have different view points about something.

freespirit

Ratzkifal wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

@Amunari the fact that you state you have been in 30 trade guilds suggests to me you have yet to find your home!

I have been in maybe one more than the ones I m in now...... I am an officer in two, the management of these guilds work tirelessly to provide fun stuff to do and to raise enough funds to maintain a decent trader.....

The fact you think people actually skim profits for their own benefit shows a complete lack of knowledge of the costs of running a trade guild!!

More often than not guild management are supporting their guild with gold from their own pocket AND happily do that to maintain a happy place for people to be!!!

You must obviously be one of those 2-in-3 skimmers that secretly rob people for their own benefit and never get caught in the disguise of a fun guild that's actually pleasant to be in as opposed to guilds with chats exclusively made of WTS and WTB messages.

Correct!

Jeremy

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?[/quote]

Lets assume those said leaders and officers skimmed. Even if they skimmed 10k, that they needed to buy something for 100k and re-post for 200k, their money becomes corrupted and over time, large amounts of their wealth as a result were due to skimming, cheating, and so forth.

Its unreasonable to believe that every human is free of these things, no, almost for sure they have all cheated or skimmed at one time or another, so Yes, they are doing things that are not so good, and yes, its unlikely/probably the case they are cheaters.[/quote]

It is unreasonable to not assume that this thread is created by the OP to scam us all for his forum stars. It is unreasonable to believe that he, a human being, is above this behaviour. Can scamming and trolling for forum stars be considered cheating? Yes, it is probably the case.

ps: this reply will probably, most likely, get deleted by mods but really, come on... seriously, his reply above surely rings the troll siren. No? [/quote]

---

I think the quote thing messed up on you, but I'll try to respond anyway.

And just a heads up (and I found this out the hard way myself) but referring to other comments as attempts to "troll" will get you into some issues with the moderators. So while I understand you disapprove my post, I would try to stay away from using the t-word to describe it.

But just to defend myself, the intent of my post was not to do the t-word. It was to reinforce what Amunari said. Because I agreed with him on that point.

freespirit

@Jeremy I am well aware that some people are total *** BUT there are many people that are not......

As I said it's a matter of finding a good place to be, I have been lucky

Jeremy

freespirit wrote: »

@Jeremy I am well aware that some people are total *** BUT there are many people that are not......

As I said it's a matter of finding a good place to be, I have been lucky

I never meant to imply all trade guilds were corrupt. So if you took that from my comment you misunderstood me. There are honest guilds out there. I've found a few myself.

Unfortunately I've also found some bad ones which has soured me on the whole "trading guild" concept. So I would advise players to be wary about what is being done with their "dues". I've had some bad experiences. haha

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What 10% tax?
The Guild Tax is 7% as mandated by ZOS. 3.5% of that vanishes as a gold sink (required to reduce inflation in a game where gold appears out of thin air into mob inventories) and 3.5% of it goes into the guild bank. That's why most guilds use fees, donations, raffles, and sales requirements to fund their guild bid (which is another big gold sink).


No WTB/WTS in Guild Chat
I can only speak for my guilds here, but we did this for two reasons:
1. We tried not to spam our members with sale offers in guild chat, letting it be more a place for socializing or organizing activities.
2. Our members had thirty slots in the trader on a regular basis, and access to selling through the in-guild store when we didn't (we were encouraged to "shop at home" first during those weeks). Using the store was the most appropriate and effective way of selling to guild members.

2. translation: we want gold to horde in the guild bank/officer wallet. I am not ignorant of officers "skimming" off the top in eso, i have heard its a very common practice.

It's probably not just a coincidence that some of the richest players in ESO also just happen to be the leaders and officers of the largest trade guilds. ^^

Yes, of course. They are only rich because they embezzle, skim profits, and scam guild members. It couldn't possibly be they got rich because they actually worked for it, being as they are in trade guilds and might be the people who like to play Elderscrolls Trading as their endgame, right?

Anyone who heard from someone who knows someone who heard from other people who knew people who said in chat that this is absolutely true actually have any real evidence?

Lets assume those said leaders and officers skimmed. Even if they skimmed 10k, that they needed to buy something for 100k and re-post for 200k, their money becomes corrupted and over time, large amounts of their wealth as a result were due to skimming, cheating, and so forth.

Its unreasonable to believe that every human is free of these things, no, almost for sure they have all cheated or skimmed at one time or another, so Yes, they are doing things that are not so good, and yes, its unlikely/probably the case they are cheaters.

Let's maybe not assume. I have been an officer in a trading guild, and did not ever skim or take anything from the guild for my time and effort.

What would have been the point?
I chose to support the guild with my time, effort, and donations because it was a good trading guild for me, and I could. Skimming would have hurt the Guild and my guildmates. In addition to, you know, being an immoral thing to do.

Plus, enriching myself is as simple as running another Craglorn loop...and selling the results on my guild store. Easy to make 10k that way all from my own effort. Why would I skim?

And I don't think I'm a saint among guild officers. Most are unpaid volunteers doing it for enjoyment or wanting to provide a service for their guildmates.

True. The money is made from selling. Stealing would be such a short term and in the end losing situation.

The reality is most established trading guilds have too many officers that can see what is happening with the money that this could not happen. That does not even get into the fact that bids for good locations are extremely costly, something that was stated in the OP but was conveniently edited out because it demonstrated how unlikely this accusation based on assumptions was.

The argument put forth in the OP is based on assumptions of the percentage guilds get from sales which Varanis demonstrated were incorrect. As such OP changed their tune that the numbers were not important which collapsed the foundation of this accusation.

I am asking the OP to present something to back up their accusations which should be pretty easy being they have been in almost 30 guilds with a trade based focus as they presented in the quote provided below.

Amunari wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I would expect the social guilds would struggle with obtaining traders as that is not their focus, hence they do not have the experience in how to manage it as well as lacking the support from their members. Heck, most social guilds with large rosters do not manage the roster to make sure everyone is actually active with the guild. Most of the members probably do not even know if and when the guild has a trader and likely do not care because they are already in a trade guild.

Further, I have never been charged by any trading guilds I have been in and my trade guilds are in major cities. I do have to actually sell something but even that requirement is very low.

The lack of guilds having access to a trader just hurts trading and the economy as a whole, why traders who want gold would not advocate for more chances of finding something incorrectly priced and re-posting it for a profit is beyond me. However, after being in almost 30 guilds with trade focus (some highly successful with good trade locations) i can tell you it is absolutely normal to require minimums a week, and even to show up to or participate in events.