the change is good because in cyrodiill there are players equipped with gold items and level 40-45 and they don’t leave there (they don’t want to level up and leave the pvp zone below level 50) because they keep killing novice players who enter pvp just to get pvp skills for their construction and suffer at the hands of these players (because you are a new player you often don't even have all the blue items to face them, purple items even less and sometimes depending on your class you don't either has a cure) so the fun is only theirs

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

joerginger wrote: »

[They want to "persuade" us non-PvP-lovers with alts to buy the Assault skill line we unlocked on our main character on 17 alt characters. Yes, the riding lessons for newer characters are the other obvious choice, but I believe their monetizing engineers want even more right now. The skill lines are so ridiculously expensive, they promise ZoS an absurdly huge amount of money of course, so we're talking about a huge amount of money they look forward to grabbing by slowing our fully leveled characters down to the crawl ZoS considers normal speed.

Actually, those of us complaining can't buy the Assault skill line "right now" even if we want to.

If they change the rules so that you can buy that line without making Grand Overlord on another character, that will be very strong evidence for your theory. But as of now, your suggested explanation is almost the only one that can be ruled out.

Alliance War Skills at rank 10 =\= Grand Overlord.

Assault and Support 10 are unlocked at alliance War rank 13 (which requires a total of just over 1 mil AP). Grand Overlord requires almost 61 mil to get to rank 49. While I don't agree with the change, even though all my alts still have rapids, let's not overexaggerate the issue with dramatizations because it doesn't help your position.

Edit to add actual reference link. UESP is your friend.

I didn't realize that the Alliance skill line worked differently from, say, Undaunted, which you can't buy until you've maxed it out, even above the level where you've unlocked all the skills. Thanks for the clarification.

It does work the same, but the Assault/Support skill lines are not the same as Alliance Rank, though they both level with AP

To get to Assaul/Support 10 (which then allows you to buy the skill line for alts) you need to get to Alliance Rank 13, not 50.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

So we PVE players should all look forward to many hours of hideous abuse, name calling and toxic insults one EACH character just so we can actually travel about at a decent speed on a new character? Who thought this was a good idea?

This is the same for PvP player that hate PvE one shots from bosses and PvE logic is not fun for PvP players. The toxic and ohh look I was kicked from group for not knowing City of Ash happens. PvP player that do as little PvE as possible face this when they are forced to PvE for bind on pick up gear.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Eliahnus wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.

Quite the opposite. For someone who does not PvP, rapids cannot be gained anymore.

Correct, which is also true about a lot of other skills... purge, barrier, vigor (at least it was), warhorn, etc...

I understand, people want to go as fast as possible and limit the exposure to ZoS environment, but pretty much like every other change its a learn to adapt issue. And let's not act like the crown store alternative for buying horse speed wasn't taken into consideration here, as there is obviously more cause to buy them now.

It is the first time they have actually directly taken away a skill when they made changes like this. Previously it was just "locked" but was still able to be put onto your bars until you took the skill point out yourself by respeccing.

It was unprecedented, a change from past practice.

Why was this one different? Because there's a way to monetize it.

I did PvP on a new alt and LITERALLY got rank 5 in like three hours that’s nothing compared to the mindless PvE grinding I have to do for powers, passives and gear. PvE is aggressively unfun.

You know what to do in PvP, though. Hit things with AoE, set up oils asap, repair doors/walls whenever there's a lull in fights, anticipate the next move of the zerg.

People who don't PvP don't have that awareness. I've been running with guildies who need to level Assault to 5, and I tend to get between 30-50% more AP than they do, even though we are grouped, just because I have a better idea of what to do than they do. I don't have to be told. And I'm not even an experienced PvPer.

Your experience is not going to be the same as the players who never PvP. It's going to be a lot harder for them.

Just saying I'm happy I leveled my newest alt up to level 7 in assault and support during double AP.
And that I have used various alts for farming transmute geodes earlier

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

So we PVE players should all look forward to many hours of hideous abuse, name calling and toxic insults one EACH character just so we can actually travel about at a decent speed on a new character? Who thought this was a good idea?

This is the same for PvP player that hate PvE one shots from bosses and PvE logic is not fun for PvP players. The toxic and ohh look I was kicked from group for not knowing City of Ash happens. PvP player that do as little PvE as possible face this when they are forced to PvE for bind on pick up gear.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Eliahnus wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.

Quite the opposite. For someone who does not PvP, rapids cannot be gained anymore.

Correct, which is also true about a lot of other skills... purge, barrier, vigor (at least it was), warhorn, etc...

I understand, people want to go as fast as possible and limit the exposure to ZoS environment, but pretty much like every other change its a learn to adapt issue. And let's not act like the crown store alternative for buying horse speed wasn't taken into consideration here, as there is obviously more cause to buy them now.

It is the first time they have actually directly taken away a skill when they made changes like this. Previously it was just "locked" but was still able to be put onto your bars until you took the skill point out yourself by respeccing.

It was unprecedented, a change from past practice.

Why was this one different? Because there's a way to monetize it.

I did PvP on a new alt and LITERALLY got rank 5 in like three hours that’s nothing compared to the mindless PvE grinding I have to do for powers, passives and gear. PvE is aggressively unfun.

you may have been able to get rank 5 in three hours, that's definitely not my experience.

nukk3r wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

So we PVE players should all look forward to many hours of hideous abuse, name calling and toxic insults one EACH character just so we can actually travel about at a decent speed on a new character? Who thought this was a good idea?

This is the same for PvP player that hate PvE one shots from bosses and PvE logic is not fun for PvP players. The toxic and ohh look I was kicked from group for not knowing City of Ash happens. PvP player that do as little PvE as possible face this when they are forced to PvE for bind on pick up gear.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Eliahnus wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.

Quite the opposite. For someone who does not PvP, rapids cannot be gained anymore.

Correct, which is also true about a lot of other skills... purge, barrier, vigor (at least it was), warhorn, etc...

I understand, people want to go as fast as possible and limit the exposure to ZoS environment, but pretty much like every other change its a learn to adapt issue. And let's not act like the crown store alternative for buying horse speed wasn't taken into consideration here, as there is obviously more cause to buy them now.

It is the first time they have actually directly taken away a skill when they made changes like this. Previously it was just "locked" but was still able to be put onto your bars until you took the skill point out yourself by respeccing.

It was unprecedented, a change from past practice.

Why was this one different? Because there's a way to monetize it.

I did PvP on a new alt and LITERALLY got rank 5 in like three hours that’s nothing compared to the mindless PvE grinding I have to do for powers, passives and gear. PvE is aggressively unfun.

You're preaching to the wrong crowd. Judging by the comments I've read so far, these people don't seem to do dungeons either. Otherwise we would've heard from them when ZOS destroyed classes, races and popular sets every single patch.

hey, I was there when Blazeplars and Saptanks were destroyed, and when the Morrowind sustain apocalypse happened. I've dealt with all the changes (usually changes that made the class less fun to play) to DKs over the years. Those could be adapted to by reworking the skills and gear and changing how the character was played, and in far less than the time it will take me to grind out the Alliance War skill line on my characters that haven't maxed it (+/-50 hours) I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that this is the first time ZoS has crippled someones enjoyment of the game. I do think this change is a mistake of another order of magnitude. Simply because of how deeply it affects so many peoples game experience and the fact that it can't be worked around without substantial time or cash. Again, I'm looking at about 50 hours to get my PvE characters back to where they were... I'm still miffed about the death of my Blazeplar though.

I know ZoS heard from me on the Morrowind and various DK changes... probably said some things I could have phrased better. oops, my bad

markulrich1966 wrote: »

TESO_sb wrote: »

I tried playing Cyrodiil and I realized how much I didn't like it.
It's not a pleasant game - it's a running simulator.
You run for 3-5 minutes to one point, since you are a new player without proper equipment and knowledge, all PVP for you lasts 3-4 seconds.
Oh, how interesting it is. It's just crazy that the second day there is simply no desire to play this.

look for a "niche".

As PVE player, a PVE situation: resources.
Farms, mines, lumbermills. At higher CP levels with divines armor you are strong enough to solo a resource (take out all guards, stand at the flag til the resource flips).

If it looks too difficult: run into the tower, kill the 2 guards that follow you, then the mage on top. Then use AOE on the 4 guards at the flag, taking out the 2 healers first.

Great offer.
Now let's count:
For capturing a sawmill / farm, they give 1500 points
From 3 to 4 level you need 30,000 alliance points
From 4 to 5 level you need 60,000 alliance points
Total 90,000 / 1,500 and we get 60 captures.
If we assume ideal conditions - 10 minutes to capture (taking into account the run between the points), then we get 600 minutes, or 10 hours.
A great alternative.
This proposal is as relevant as repairing the walls.

upd.
PC/Mac Patch Notes v6.1.5 - Stonethorn & Update 27
Vigor: This ability is now first in the skill line to unlock, and has swapped places with Rapid Maneuvers in efforts to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience. Previous XP gained in both of these skills will be retained, but if your Assault skill line is too low to obtain the 3rd skill, you will have to level it in order to gain access to Rapid Maneuvers again.

It's a lie. Somehow I reached level 5, but the transformation that was chosen earlier and had rank 4 is now rank 1 and must be pumped again.

[snip] Cyro is the ONLY zone in the game in which Rapids has any material effect. Having recently done skyshards on two toons over the last couple of weeks, never using or NEEDING rapids, one comes straight into the wall o FACT that there are very very few areas of the overworld map in ESO where Rapids is remotely useful due to twisty roads, mobs, leveled terrain, hard to get to skyshards. I don't even stay mounted most of the time due to the need to gather lore books, shards, find entrances.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

keoma01 wrote: »

Jem_Kindheart wrote: »

Sgrug wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

It is such a minimal effort to get to the needed ranks in Assault. I never cared which was first had both anyway in less than 30 minutes.

Not for 17 characters it is not

I only started really PVP'ing this year. I got 10 characters to Alliance / Support 10 in just 1 month. Getting 17 chars to A/S 5 would take just a couple days.

Yes, thats true. Still, for a new character with low riding skill and without rapid, it will be a were bad experience to do anything in Cyrodiil.

If on an new character do it before 50, all in baby pvp is in the same boat.
Also double AP test is coming up soon.

Now we know the reason, people will use it to grind vigor.
With just double AP many would sit that one out in disgust but now all will use it to level vigor.
However feel that one will backfire, most of the ones having issues here are pretty casual.
They will get some shock of the AoE nerfs, they just copied some build who is pretty outdated.
On the other hand the real casuals will continue spamming frag and will not notice

buttaface wrote: »

[snip] Cyro is the ONLY zone in the game in which Rapids has any material effect. Having recently done skyshards on two toons over the last couple of weeks, never using or NEEDING rapids, one comes straight into the wall o FACT that there are very very few areas of the overworld map in ESO where Rapids is remotely useful due to twisty roads, mobs, leveled terrain, hard to get to skyshards. I don't even stay mounted most of the time due to the need to gather lore books, shards, find entrances.

[snip]

nope, for alot of players (not all, but very very many) Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill. I personally use it all the time on all of my characters and I'm not unusual in this. Traveling around on a slow horse is tedious and no one is paying money for the tedium. I use it for general questing, gathering shards/lorebooks, doing crafting surveys, the psijiic time-rifts, traveling around Cyrodil, farming, etc. I've never had any problems traveling around in any zone while using Rapids.

Rapids was put at the first slot of the support line because riding around Cyrodil without it at launch was simply unfun gameplay.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Noisivid wrote: »

update, so now I've been doing battlegrounds for about two hours,

1. alliance war skill line is about 1/8th of the way into level 4. It started out at almost level 3 when I began.
2. it's pretty obvious there are alot of people in battlegrounds just trying to grind this up to get Rapids back. It's can't be fun for them and I don't imagine it's too enjoyable for the dedicated PvPers. I might be wrong on this... I do know its not fun for me.
3. This is at peak hours, I'm usually on at off-peak hours
4. This is a chore. I'll get more satisfaction out of doing the laundry or mowing the lawn then by grinding this out on many, many characters.
5. either the Devs don't really play this game or the Devs aren't the ones making the decisions.... or the Devs just made a really bad decision on this.

This is a game, it is supposed to be enjoyabe, fun and enteraining. It's been turned into tedious work with this change.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert,

edited for punctuation

I couldn’t have said this better myself.