Vigor <--> Rapids...DON'T

Jaraal · August 2020

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I have 16 characters, 15 of them stamina, and one magicka. I have access to Vigor on those I play most, but can't even remember the last time I slotted it on any of them.

Vigor is not essential in my opinion. Being able to ride long distances in the minimum time possible, however, is.

Toanis · August 2020

IMO rapids is more important for new players/characters in both PVP and PVE. You don't need healing when you can't get to the keep in time, and when you need to spend your precious lowbie skillpoints on Vigor because overland content is too hard, you might want to move to a starter zone.

That said, is there a reason why the second skill can't be available at skill level 3 so we can get both after the PVP tutorial?

Sevn · August 2020

Jaraal wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I have 16 characters, 15 of them stamina, and one magicka. I have access to Vigor on those I play most, but can't even remember the last time I slotted it on any of them.

Vigor is not essential in my opinion. Being able to ride long distances in the minimum time possible, however, is.

Ok. I also have 16 characters, all stamina except for 2. Every single one of my stamina toons use Vigor. I haven't used Rapids in years. I'm not sure how posting our different experiences proves anything.

Your experience doesn't trump mine nor does mine yours. It's totally fine though, we just disagree.

Toanis wrote: »

IMO rapids is more important for new players/characters in both PVP and PVE. You don't need healing when you can't get to the keep in time, and when you need to spend your precious lowbie skillpoints on Vigor because overland content is too hard, you might want to move to a starter zone.

That said, is there a reason why the second skill can't be available at skill level 3 so we can get both after the PVP tutorial?

What good is getting to the keep faster if you die all the time because you don't have a heal? The whole I need get from point a to point b faster or to farm faster on my alts isn't a good enough reason to oppose the change. It just isn't.

That being said, Vigor should have been moved out of pvp ages ago which would have avoided all this in the first place.

BigBragg · August 2020

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I haven't seen the divide be anywhere near that black and white. The vast majority of people I PvP with play stam, and don't like the change. I play half and half myself. With more time on stam, and I don't see it as a good change. I wonder how many people who say they never use rapid are on console versus PC, because most PC players use the add on to automatically slot rapids when they mount. This goes for PvE and PvP players. It's so prevalent when I don't see somebodies arms animate to the sides casting rapids, it looks odd to me. I also stand by the point of having a heal doesn't matter if you are late to the fight.

Kosef · August 2020

I for one find it easier to pvp and acquire vigor once I have rapids as I don't feel super slow and holding my team back. Sure I could have vigor first and be able to heal..but if I'm constantly holding my team back because someone has to constantly fall back and give me rapids..I've become a hindrance to my team instead of an asset. Not to mention you are already slow on a new character because your riding lessons are low.

Sevn · August 2020

BigBragg wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I haven't seen the divide be anywhere near that black and white. The vast majority of people I PvP with play stam, and don't like the change. I play half and half myself. With more time on stam, and I don't see it as a good change. I wonder how many people who say they never use rapid are on console versus PC, because most PC players use the add on to automatically slot rapids when they mount. This goes for PvE and PvP players. It's so prevalent when I don't see somebodies arms animate to the sides casting rapids, it looks odd to me. I also stand by the point of having a heal doesn't matter if you are late to the fight.

I acknowledge I have not read all responses, but it comes down to players who think a heal is more essential verses players who want to get somewhere faster. There is ZERO room for compromise between the two.

Players who find having a heal essential to their stamina builds aren't going to convince players who enjoy getting somewhere faster to change their mind and vice versa.

That's pretty black and white.

I think you might be on to something pertaining to console vs pc. I'm on ps4NA, rarely see rapids used by anyone but farmers in pve. When I'm in Cyro there is always at least one player with rapids slotted so there is no need for everyone in the group to have it.

Again irrelevant because one experience doesn't trump another, though I stand by my previous statement, what good is getting to the fight faster if you are constantly low on health and dying before you can make a real contribution to the fight?

@kosef
When in a group why are you falling back when everyone gets rapids? You are much more of a burden dying all the time forcing teammates to revive you over and over imo.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · August 2020

Radiance wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Are people really so addicted to speed, that they consider this skill "essential"? Or that they'd ever in a million years consider buying those stupid crown store training books?
(and the idea that someone would skip buying a new character slot because they can't get easy Rapids - as opposed to all the other better reasons - seems crazy to me.)
full disclosure - I've played since 2016, have 8 alts, have never used Rapids or bought a training book. Regular mount speed + wayshrines has always seemed perfectly fine to me. /shrug

I don't personally find this that big of a problem but you have Never used Rapids!?
This mindset is what's wrong with the world! "It doesn't affect me, so why should I care?" As if that is a valid justification...

PS! Double spacing doesn't make your argument, or lack thereof, any more sound.

Lol this is funny are you saying that a player that doesn’t use rapids doesn’t care cause it doesn’t affect them BUT you don’t care about the stamina characters that don’t have a good heal. You can’t move it to Fighters Guild they have 5 powers and an ultimate there is no room same with support.

My counter is and has always been just move rapids to soul magic the skill line is light anyways and add a new PvP power. Like a melee attack that has a magic and stamina morph for the classes missing a melee spammable.

AlnilamE · August 2020

Sevn wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I haven't seen the divide be anywhere near that black and white. The vast majority of people I PvP with play stam, and don't like the change. I play half and half myself. With more time on stam, and I don't see it as a good change. I wonder how many people who say they never use rapid are on console versus PC, because most PC players use the add on to automatically slot rapids when they mount. This goes for PvE and PvP players. It's so prevalent when I don't see somebodies arms animate to the sides casting rapids, it looks odd to me. I also stand by the point of having a heal doesn't matter if you are late to the fight.

I acknowledge I have not read all responses, but it comes down to players who think a heal is more essential verses players who want to get somewhere faster. There is ZERO room for compromise between the two.

Players who find having a heal essential to their stamina builds aren't going to convince players who enjoy getting somewhere faster to change their mind and vice versa.

That's pretty black and white.

I personally favour Rapids over Vigor because I mostly run my stamina characters in group content where we have a healer. Though they've all completed Maelstrom, so they are self sufficient enough.

However, the people who oppose this change don't want to leave the people who want Vigor out in the cold, so we've been suggesting swapping Vigor with Siege Shield instead of Rapids so that both Rapids and Vigor are unlocked at the same level and everybody is happy.

Jaraal · August 2020

AlnilamE wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I haven't seen the divide be anywhere near that black and white. The vast majority of people I PvP with play stam, and don't like the change. I play half and half myself. With more time on stam, and I don't see it as a good change. I wonder how many people who say they never use rapid are on console versus PC, because most PC players use the add on to automatically slot rapids when they mount. This goes for PvE and PvP players. It's so prevalent when I don't see somebodies arms animate to the sides casting rapids, it looks odd to me. I also stand by the point of having a heal doesn't matter if you are late to the fight.

I acknowledge I have not read all responses, but it comes down to players who think a heal is more essential verses players who want to get somewhere faster. There is ZERO room for compromise between the two.

Players who find having a heal essential to their stamina builds aren't going to convince players who enjoy getting somewhere faster to change their mind and vice versa.

That's pretty black and white.

I personally favour Rapids over Vigor because I mostly run my stamina characters in group content where we have a healer. Though they've all completed Maelstrom, so they are self sufficient enough.

However, the people who oppose this change don't want to leave the people who want Vigor out in the cold, so we've been suggesting swapping Vigor with Siege Shield instead of Rapids so that both Rapids and Vigor are unlocked at the same level and everybody is happy.

This is the logical solution that has been touted by the majority of players. If it goes live like it is on test, can there be any doubt that the true motivation is monitization?

UrQuan · August 2020

Sevn wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I haven't seen the divide be anywhere near that black and white. The vast majority of people I PvP with play stam, and don't like the change. I play half and half myself. With more time on stam, and I don't see it as a good change. I wonder how many people who say they never use rapid are on console versus PC, because most PC players use the add on to automatically slot rapids when they mount. This goes for PvE and PvP players. It's so prevalent when I don't see somebodies arms animate to the sides casting rapids, it looks odd to me. I also stand by the point of having a heal doesn't matter if you are late to the fight.

I acknowledge I have not read all responses, but it comes down to players who think a heal is more essential verses players who want to get somewhere faster. There is ZERO room for compromise between the two.

No, it absolutely does not. It comes down to players who think it's a good idea to take away something that's useful to every single character and build in the game, and replace it with with something that's only useful to certain stamina builds, and players who don't think that's a good idea.

Linaleah · August 2020

Sevn wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.

I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.

I haven't seen the divide be anywhere near that black and white. The vast majority of people I PvP with play stam, and don't like the change. I play half and half myself. With more time on stam, and I don't see it as a good change. I wonder how many people who say they never use rapid are on console versus PC, because most PC players use the add on to automatically slot rapids when they mount. This goes for PvE and PvP players. It's so prevalent when I don't see somebodies arms animate to the sides casting rapids, it looks odd to me. I also stand by the point of having a heal doesn't matter if you are late to the fight.

I acknowledge I have not read all responses, but it comes down to players who think a heal is more essential verses players who want to get somewhere faster. There is ZERO room for compromise between the two.

Players who find having a heal essential to their stamina builds aren't going to convince players who enjoy getting somewhere faster to change their mind and vice versa.

That's pretty black and white.

I think you might be on to something pertaining to console vs pc. I'm on ps4NA, rarely see rapids used by anyone but farmers in pve. When I'm in Cyro there is always at least one player with rapids slotted so there is no need for everyone in the group to have it.

Again irrelevant because one experience doesn't trump another, though I stand by my previous statement, what good is getting to the fight faster if you are constantly low on health and dying before you can make a real contribution to the fight?

@kosef
When in a group why are you falling back when everyone gets rapids? You are much more of a burden dying all the time forcing teammates to revive you over and over imo.

there is a PERFECT COMPROMISE BETWEEN AND HAS BEEN ALL ALONG.

you choosing to ignore it, doesn't mean it hasn't been suggested over. and over. and over.

move vigor to first skill in support line. that way BOTH vigor AND rapids are available at lvl 10 for everyone.

Elvenheart · August 2020

Moving vigor (or rapid maneuvers) to the first skill of the support line so we get both vigor and rapid maneuvers at the same time does seem to be the very best solution for everyone concerned. If ZOS’s true goal is to help players then they should definitely consider this feedback. I have not seen one post in any thread on this where someone said, “No, I need my siege shield at lvl 10 right away or it’s Game Over for me!”

EDITED TO ADD:
I rarely like to PVP, but last night I did some BG and got to lvl 4 in my Alliance skills. I’m going to try for lvl 5 tonight. I did feel sorry for my teammates, having someone inexperienced who would rather be doing something else as part of their teams. One time we even came in at first place! But several times people left early in what I assume to be disgust at how things were going. So, in addition to not being fun for me, it wasn’t fun for other people who normally like PVP.

VoidCommander · August 2020

Does no one realize that a "new" stamina player can use magicka based heals effectively until about level 40 due to the resource buffs? That would be more than enough time to get the stamina heal from the alliance war skill line without losing access to a very useful skill like Rapids, which has no duplicate skills anywhere in the game.

Why take a unique skill and lock it behind hours upon hours of (usually unfun) grinding in Cyrodiil, when anyone in need of a stamina heal could very easily just use a magicka based heal in the meantime while they level for it?

buttaface · August 2020

Great change, vigor is far more valuable for some classes. I fail to see the rationale for the overwrought drama and pearl-clutching on this.

Gythral · August 2020

buttaface wrote: »

Great change, vigor is far more valuable for some classes. I fail to see the rationale for the overwrought drama and pearl-clutching on this.

To what? 1 out of 10 builds (ish)
compared to 11 in every 10 for rapids...