Vigor <--> Rapids...DON'T

Kosef

What is the argument here though. All the people against the idea of Keeping rapids where it is....what about the idea to move vigor to the 1st skill in support or a skill line like FG.

People keep arguing for or against..when there is a perfectly acceptable solution to both sides.

caperb

Low level stamina players can use their class heals (they are as good as vigor at low levels) and getting healed by lfg healers while they surf the zerg with their rapids to get 98k AP fast.

Vice versa this is impossible. After the first rapids applied by a group member expires you are left behind and will not be able to catch up in time 90% of the time, missing all the ticks.

And to be honest, at a low level you will be killed anyway. Vigor is not the heal that is keeping you alive if outnumbered. Yes you can make unkillable builds between level 20 and 40, but that is for trolling and not getting those 98k AP on a new alt.

At high levels, I expect you to have both skills anyway.

wolfie1.0.

finehair wrote: »

Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.

How is this any different than any other skill line? i mean you get blade of woe just for completing a quest, werewolf transformation, etc. So now i get vigor unlocked for doing nothing instead. i mean i guess my level 10 stamina characters will get a heal for free that they don't need. in exchange i lose mobility and TIME. more than half my characters wont benefit from this change, and ALL are losing it and its going to take time to get the skill BACK. Time that i could use doing things that i actually LIKE to do. Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.

really mine and other peoples complaints about this change is NOT that we don't like having access to vigor, its that ZOS is taking away a skill that we use and we use a LOT. and on all of my characters, its not like a standard nerf, where i can just roll another character and go with it, because that strategy actually makes it worse.

Honestly, i would be WAY less upset about this change if 1) Mount Training was changed to allow faster progression, 2) ZOS reduced the crown price of the mount scrolls, 3) ZOS moved Rapids out of PVP, or 4) moved to slot one of the support line.

At this point, ZOS is unlikely to change anything, and lets be honest. ZOS wont even consider making a change for another 6 months at least.

and for all of you out there that think that this will bring people into PVP, you might be right, but be aware that it probably wont bring people into PVP that you want in PVP. The next time i see a thread complaining about zergs, well i will reference this change in every single one.

wolfie1.0.

Kosef wrote: »

What is the argument here though. All the people against the idea of Keeping rapids where it is....what about the idea to move vigor to the 1st skill in support or a skill line like FG.

People keep arguing for or against..when there is a perfectly acceptable solution to both sides.

TBH, if ZOS was thinking about things correctly they would have done this. The problem is that its too late in the PTS cycle for ZOS to change the skill to another skill line at this point, and it was probably too late for the change when the PTS was even brought online. So really the only option is to fight the implementation, in this update at least. I honestly would love them to move rapids fully out of PVP so that i didn't have to deal with it. But at this point, either the change goes live or it doesn't, and it will be another 3 to six months before we see any options for changes. Thats how ZOS works.

nukk3r

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.

Please stop with this fake dichotomy. People who actually play this game do both PvE and PvP, maybe not in exactly 50/50 proportion but still. Rapids is inessential skill for PvE (doing dungeons and trials), it doesn't buff your DPS, provide heals or help you with taunting the mobs. It's a pure mobility skill which is needed for exactly one main activity, which is travelling around Cyrodiil and you're using it to pick flowers.

Luckylancer

It is extremely grindy to level allience skill line without rapids in a HUGE map. I dont like playing horse riding simulator with a donkey that gets tired (thx for stamina depletion too ZoS(!))

We need rapids to collect skyshards. 0 speed upgrade + no major gallop + tired horse mechanic = way too grindy to farm those shards compared to 2010s

I advocate for easy vigor acces but not like this. This is worse than current state.

People that say "it doesnt affect me, I dont care" are [snip] [snip] [snip]. Thx for being a decent human beign

Linaleah

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.
anyone at level 10 could go and get it for themselves. anyone who saw someone sprint past them - could and often DID ask in zone chat how they did that and were explained how they got that ability. I myself have explained it to people more then once.

Linaleah

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.

THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.

What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.

if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons

see how ridiculous that sounds?

sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.

and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.

Linaleah

Kosef wrote: »

What is the argument here though. All the people against the idea of Keeping rapids where it is....what about the idea to move vigor to the 1st skill in support or a skill line like FG.

People keep arguing for or against..when there is a perfectly acceptable solution to both sides.

these people keep ignoring this suggestion, because its actualy reasonable and would make EVERYONE happy. they would rather watch other people be unhappy and gloat.

Thechuckage

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.

Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.

There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.

Tinolyn

nukk3r wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.

Please stop with this fake dichotomy. People who actually play this game do both PvE and PvP, maybe not in exactly 50/50 proportion but still. Rapids is inessential skill for PvE (doing dungeons and trials), it doesn't buff your DPS, provide heals or help you with taunting the mobs. It's a pure mobility skill which is needed for exactly one main activity, which is travelling around Cyrodiil and you're using it to pick flowers.

This is an intriguing viewpoint. As others have said, rapids is used everywhere, not just cyrodiil. Not in dungeons or trials, sure. But anywhere on the map when you want to get from one place to another and don't have a wayshrine discovered yet.

I'll give my own personal use situation: First character, I didn't even know rapids existed. I don't PVP unless I have to. I leveled without it; got that character maxed on everything, did every quest available (Cadwell's Gold, etc.) completely unaware of Rapids. When I was forced to pvp for a pvp skill on that character (can't recall which one, this was a long time ago) and discovered rapids, I was like WHAT THE HELL WAS I MISSING!?

I'm an altaholic. I have a dozen characters at least. Every character since, the first thing I did at level 10 was unlock rapids. Those characters eventually did just enough pvp to get vigor (or caltrops, which was the thing back then) and then avoided pvp unless needed. My most recent character I rushed through to get vigor, because I didn't want to lose rapids. I do not BG; never touched one, never had any desire to be in one.

This is a stupid change. STUPID. Especially stupid when you could just put vigor as the first support skill (which makes a whole lot of sense). We all have theories on why ZOS didn't do this, I'm not going to rehash them.

I will not be starting another character anytime soon, even though I love to start characters and get them raid-ready. And this change is part of that reluctance.

Kosef

Exactly. The fact that this discussion is being had is in of itself ridiculous. No one asked for this, and if it was a needed change..then it's easily implemented in a way that satisfies both sides. This is clear a push to the crown store, and nothing more. If they were so concerned about the placement of Vigor...why has it remained the way it has since the beginning. This is all about crown purchase. Please don't cater to the idea that they actually are doing this to help the player base. They aren't.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

nukk3r wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.

Please stop with this fake dichotomy. People who actually play this game do both PvE and PvP, maybe not in exactly 50/50 proportion but still. Rapids is inessential skill for PvE (doing dungeons and trials), it doesn't buff your DPS, provide heals or help you with taunting the mobs. It's a pure mobility skill which is needed for exactly one main activity, which is travelling around Cyrodiil and you're using it to pick flowers.

Agreed. Rapids is not essential at all for mat harvesting. The idea that it is... I am really not sure where that comes from.

And truthfully? Why do you need a separate character for this anyway? My main does everything and is perfectly capable of gathering flowers, without Rapids. (He has Rapids maxed and morphed too!)

Kosef

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.

Please stop with this fake dichotomy. People who actually play this game do both PvE and PvP, maybe not in exactly 50/50 proportion but still. Rapids is inessential skill for PvE (doing dungeons and trials), it doesn't buff your DPS, provide heals or help you with taunting the mobs. It's a pure mobility skill which is needed for exactly one main activity, which is travelling around Cyrodiil and you're using it to pick flowers.

Agreed. Rapids is not essential at all for mat harvesting. The idea that it is... I am really not sure where that comes from.

And truthfully? Why do you need a separate character for this anyway? My main does everything and is perfectly capable of gathering flowers, without Rapids. (He has Rapids maxed and morphed too!)

Why do you assume that the only reason for rapids outside of PVP is harvesting. Also..just because you do everything on your main, doesn't mean that everyone else plays the exact same way.

Gythral

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.

Please stop with this fake dichotomy. People who actually play this game do both PvE and PvP, maybe not in exactly 50/50 proportion but still. Rapids is inessential skill for PvE (doing dungeons and trials), it doesn't buff your DPS, provide heals or help you with taunting the mobs. It's a pure mobility skill which is needed for exactly one main activity, which is travelling around Cyrodiil and you're using it to pick flowers.

Agreed. Rapids is not essential at all for mat harvesting. The idea that it is... I am really not sure where that comes from.

And truthfully? Why do you need a separate character for this anyway? My main does everything and is perfectly capable of gathering flowers, without Rapids. (He has Rapids maxed and morphed too!)

Same as YOU DON NOT NEED VIGOR .. just roll a class/build that has a self heal

That is a choice, slow mounts are not a choice, they are a fact on all characters...

UrQuan

nukk3r wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

Because, unlike Vigor, it's incredibly useful on every single character. Rapids is the difference between making it to that siege/dragon/dolmen/geyser/harrowstorm/world boss in time to join in and getting there when it's too late and already over. Rapids also makes grabbing skyshards, mages guild books, psijic rifts, etc. vastly less tedious. This should really not be difficult to understand.

I understand that. But over the course of these discussions there were people with 40+ characters claiming that it's an essential skill for each their toon. I can't imagine them actually playing all of them.

Well, you're dead wrong. I've got 54 characters across 3 accounts, they all get played (obviously some far more than others, but 51 of them are level 50 and the other 3 are still getting leveled), and they all use Rapids.

Does every one of them has Undaunted skill line maxed?

No, because only a handful of them do end-game content, and the others don't have any need for the Undaunted skill line at all (although obviously they all have the skill line leveled at least a bit). You don't need Undaunted to quest, do delves, do public dungeons, do world events, do heists, do sacraments, do writs, etc.

nukk3r wrote: »

How do you update gear every patch?

For the ones that do end-game content, the same as anyone else does. For the others, I don't. They stick with setups that are good enough for the content that they do.

nukk3r wrote: »

Do you have a playtime schedule for each toon? I'm not trying to argue, just curious.

Nope, I play whatever character I feel like playing on any given day.

Linaleah

Thechuckage wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.

Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.

There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.

the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.

Jaraal

eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

Yeah, they are pretty stubborn about changes that directly affect the bottom line.

This is all about monetization, nothing else.

DigitalHype

Jaraal wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

Yeah, they are pretty stubborn about changes that directly affect the bottom line.

This is all about monetization, nothing else.

Exactly. The intent of this change had nothing to do with changing Vigor's placement. Its just happened to be the adjacent skill in that tree. ZoS knows there are number of customers who will spend crowns on upgrading mount speed on new characters, simply because they don't want to wait.

Sarannah

Linaleah wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.

Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.

There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.

the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.

Actually, it does make it easier. Since alts can't use that skill early on either. Leveling the playing field between all players who are starting out! (while at the same time taking it from bots)

The only thing players are 'competing' for in PvE is resource nodes, and with this change everyone starting out can run to them at the same speed. New and experienced players.

Eventually experienced players will go for that skill soon anyway, but atleast for the first 10 or so levels, it balances out. Making it more fair to everyone.

Look at it from a new player perspective, when all experienced players on alts take all resource nodes away before your eyes. And all the while there is nothing you can do about it, as they move faster than you. A new player would feel bad, and might quit the game because of it. While this change is only a minor inconvenience for existing players who are starting alts.

A fair and level playing field starting out, is a good thing. New players will kill slower, and won't know the game that well. So overall new players are still at a disadvantage vs alts, but nothing that actually takes something away from them anymore.

PS: I do not think the vigor/rapids change had anything to do with monetization or gameplay tbh, it was probably a decision to slow bots down. Since players will get those skills again anyways.

AlnilamE

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.

Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.

There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.

the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.

Actually, it does make it easier. Since alts can't use that skill early on either. Leveling the playing field between all players who are starting out! (while at the same time taking it from bots)

The only thing players are 'competing' for in PvE is resource nodes, and with this change everyone starting out can run to them at the same speed. New and experienced players.

Eventually experienced players will go for that skill soon anyway, but atleast for the first 10 or so levels, it balances out. Making it more fair to everyone.

Look at it from a new player perspective, when all experienced players on alts take all resource nodes away before your eyes. And all the while there is nothing you can do about it, as they move faster than you. A new player would feel bad, and might quit the game because of it. While this change is only a minor inconvenience for existing players who are starting alts.

A fair and level playing field starting out, is a good thing. New players will kill slower, and won't know the game that well. So overall new players are still at a disadvantage vs alts, but nothing that actually takes something away from them anymore.

You know this game is scaled, right? The days of higher level players not getting loot in low level zones are long over.

What stops an established player from making an orc with medium armor and swift jewelry and enough CP to unlock Wind Runner AND Rapids from going to whatever zones the lowbies are at and outrunning all of them?

Sarannah

AlnilamE wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.

Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.

There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.

the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.

Actually, it does make it easier. Since alts can't use that skill early on either. Leveling the playing field between all players who are starting out! (while at the same time taking it from bots)

The only thing players are 'competing' for in PvE is resource nodes, and with this change everyone starting out can run to them at the same speed. New and experienced players.

Eventually experienced players will go for that skill soon anyway, but atleast for the first 10 or so levels, it balances out. Making it more fair to everyone.

Look at it from a new player perspective, when all experienced players on alts take all resource nodes away before your eyes. And all the while there is nothing you can do about it, as they move faster than you. A new player would feel bad, and might quit the game because of it. While this change is only a minor inconvenience for existing players who are starting alts.

A fair and level playing field starting out, is a good thing. New players will kill slower, and won't know the game that well. So overall new players are still at a disadvantage vs alts, but nothing that actually takes something away from them anymore.

You know this game is scaled, right? The days of higher level players not getting loot in low level zones are long over.

What stops an established player from making an orc with medium armor and swift jewelry and enough CP to unlock Wind Runner AND Rapids from going to whatever zones the lowbies are at and outrunning all of them?

This happens, but not often. Since high level players either play through those zones once, or just don't bother with those starting zones since they are so crowded. Overall this change mainly affects low level players vs low level players(new players, alts, and bots).

I don't get all the complaining about this change tbh, actual players will still be able to easily unlock rapids. It just ain't a no-investment-required QoL skill anymore.

AlnilamE

Sarannah wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?

is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.

Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.

There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.

the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.

Actually, it does make it easier. Since alts can't use that skill early on either. Leveling the playing field between all players who are starting out! (while at the same time taking it from bots)

The only thing players are 'competing' for in PvE is resource nodes, and with this change everyone starting out can run to them at the same speed. New and experienced players.

Eventually experienced players will go for that skill soon anyway, but atleast for the first 10 or so levels, it balances out. Making it more fair to everyone.

Look at it from a new player perspective, when all experienced players on alts take all resource nodes away before your eyes. And all the while there is nothing you can do about it, as they move faster than you. A new player would feel bad, and might quit the game because of it. While this change is only a minor inconvenience for existing players who are starting alts.

A fair and level playing field starting out, is a good thing. New players will kill slower, and won't know the game that well. So overall new players are still at a disadvantage vs alts, but nothing that actually takes something away from them anymore.

You know this game is scaled, right? The days of higher level players not getting loot in low level zones are long over.

What stops an established player from making an orc with medium armor and swift jewelry and enough CP to unlock Wind Runner AND Rapids from going to whatever zones the lowbies are at and outrunning all of them?

This happens, but not often. Since high level players either play through those zones once, or just don't bother with those starting zones since they are so crowded. Overall this change mainly affects low level players vs low level players(new players, alts, and bots).

I don't get all the complaining about this change tbh, actual players will still be able to easily unlock rapids. It just ain't a no-investment-required QoL skill anymore.

As I've said in another thread, I've been helping a guildie PvP to get to rank 5 on her alts, since only one of her characters was rank 5. It's taken us on average 3 hours for each character to get from rank 3 to rank 5 (longer if the character wasn't rank 3 yet). She has a lot of characters (but at least she only has one account).

I really don't see how making rapids harder to get benefits anyone, rather than swapping Vigor with Siege Shield.

If someone beats you to a node, just move on to the next node while they are busy gathering. There are so many nodes out there. This is not GW2.

Ashryn

Protest at this time is pointless, really, as this will probably go live. Of course there are easy solutions (as mentioned) to address vigor and rapids. However, when people start out a new character, they'll get frustrated with the slow speed of their horses, won't want to spend hours/days in PVP to earn it, and will be more likely to turn to the crown store for quicker speed upgrades. I think ZOS likes that idea a lot.

I do PVP at times and don't mind it. However, I just put 2 new alts last week to earning Rapids. Don't tell me how quick it is to get to the level 5 (the level you will need in the future to keep & get Rapids), as it took 2 days, 3 hours each day.

VoidCommander

@nukk3r
The reason people want rapids on SO many characters is because it means faster skyshard farming. The faster they get skillpoints, the faster they can max out their crafting skills, the faster they can complete daily crafting writs (which require logging in and traveling with EACH character), which ULTIMATELY means more gold can be made. Removing ready access to rapids effectively increases the time to prepare a new crafting character by at least 25%, not including the hours upon hours of cyrodiil grinding that would be required to actually unlock it.

nukk3r

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.

THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.

What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.

if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons

see how ridiculous that sounds?

sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.

and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.

I did my time and have no troubles with it.

Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.

@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.

Fur_like_snow

If the change is really to combat bot farming maybe they should move rapids to assault 10 and be done with it.

Tinolyn

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.

THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.

What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.

if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons

see how ridiculous that sounds?

sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.

and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.

I did my time and have no troubles with it.

Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.

@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.

Except I never use either horn or purge. <shrug>

Sahidom

volkeswagon wrote: »

I second this. Leave rapids were is and moving vigor to fighters guild sounds like an idea.

This isn't an option. Be real. Anyone who claims they earned Rapids are the same as the other 100% of the other palyers who first entered Cyrodiil and skipped the initial Cyrodiil quest by talking to the Grand Warlord; no PVP, no sieging keeps, no resource capture,.. nothing that actually earned Rapids than talking to the dude when you first enter Cyrodiil. Its a much better direction to give ALL stamina users the bone to have a self-heal...

nukk3r

Tinolyn wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.

THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.

What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.

if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons

see how ridiculous that sounds?

sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.

and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.

I did my time and have no troubles with it.

Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.

@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.

Except I never use either horn or purge. <shrug>

So you're telling me that you have 12 PvE DDs?