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Vigor <--> Rapids...DON'T
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Noisivid✭✭✭✭Hapexamendios wrote: »How about putting Vigor first on the Assault Skills and switching Rapids over to first on Support and Siege Shield to second on Assault?
Considering how seldom I see anyone using Seige Shield while seiging in Cyrodil this would probably be the best option.Vogon Poet Laureate1 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭What up with all these people saying they earned rapids. You went into PvP and skipped the training to unlock it. Let's not make it seem like an investment.PvP needs more love.2 -
mareeelb16_ESO✭✭✭The best solution to this now is for anyone who still has to get to pvp assault level 5 to join BGs and start the grind. I've got another 15 alts to work through and I'd rather play with others in the same boat than hard core pvp players who apparently want everyone to pvp but can't tolerate 'below par performance' .
Couple this with the likely impact on queue times for BGs and I strongly suspect that some of those who thought that swapping manoeuvre with vigor will be making a rapid U-turn (pun intended)1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This happens, but not often. Since high level players either play through those zones once, or just don't bother with those starting zones since they are so crowded. Overall this change mainly affects low level players vs low level players(new players, alts, and bots).
Actually, it does make it easier. Since alts can't use that skill early on either. Leveling the playing field between all players who are starting out! (while at the same time taking it from bots)Thechuckage wrote: »
This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!
New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.
are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?
and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.
this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).
Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.
tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?
is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.
Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.
There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.
the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.
The only thing players are 'competing' for in PvE is resource nodes, and with this change everyone starting out can run to them at the same speed. New and experienced players.
Eventually experienced players will go for that skill soon anyway, but atleast for the first 10 or so levels, it balances out. Making it more fair to everyone.
Look at it from a new player perspective, when all experienced players on alts take all resource nodes away before your eyes. And all the while there is nothing you can do about it, as they move faster than you. A new player would feel bad, and might quit the game because of it. While this change is only a minor inconvenience for existing players who are starting alts.
A fair and level playing field starting out, is a good thing. New players will kill slower, and won't know the game that well. So overall new players are still at a disadvantage vs alts, but nothing that actually takes something away from them anymore.
You know this game is scaled, right? The days of higher level players not getting loot in low level zones are long over.
What stops an established player from making an orc with medium armor and swift jewelry and enough CP to unlock Wind Runner AND Rapids from going to whatever zones the lowbies are at and outrunning all of them?
I don't get all the complaining about this change tbh, actual players will still be able to easily unlock rapids. It just ain't a no-investment-required QoL skill anymore.
there are so many things high level players do in low level zones nowadays - especially with antiquities being added to the game, but even before, some of the more popular farming routes at all levels, tend to be on smaller starter islands and have been ever since materials started to scale to the level of the player/their crafting skill rather then the zone itself.
that you think that its rare is hilarious. not only that, how the heck not having acess at early level - helps lower level players? HOW? higher level player is more likely to have rapids unlocked whether its rank 1 or rank 5 in pvp skill line. lower level player? USED to have a quick easy option. but with upcoming change not so much.
having something NOT accessible at early levels - makes it HARDER. NOT. EASIER.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
1. there are other available heals for dps.
2. the fact that your reasoning involved playing with game WITHOUT A HEALER IN A TRINITY BASED GAME is one of the reasons it is a BAD idea to implement this change. not that it will affect players who run vDLC dungeons with 3dps setup - because those players tend to have everything maxed out anyways or close to it. this is NOT how majority of the players play.
3. yes I play a healer. yes I've done an occasional vDLC dungeon, as a healer. and it shows how CRAPPY the design of those dungeons is that players would rather go with tank/3dps setup. it shows how unbalanced the design is, where healing makes SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE compared to bypassing mechanics by dpsing faster.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »The best solution to this now is for anyone who still has to get to pvp assault level 5 to join BGs and start the grind. I've got another 15 alts to work through and I'd rather play with others in the same boat than hard core pvp players who apparently want everyone to pvp but can't tolerate 'below par performance' .
Couple this with the likely impact on queue times for BGs and I strongly suspect that some of those who thought that swapping manoeuvre with vigor will be making a rapid U-turn (pun intended)
solution for me is going to be NOT to bother, play my alts less, make less gold as a result, spend less gold on gold to crown trading and hit ZoS bottom line that way, for what its worth anyways. not that i'm doing this out of spite, I simply do not have as much fun without my little burst of speed, which results in me playing less and as a consequence - spending less.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Tinolyn✭✭✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
Except I never use either horn or purge. <shrug>
So you're telling me that you have 12 PvE DDs?
I have 10 PVE DDs; I think about half to three-fourths are magicka-based and the rest are stamina-based; different classes and races. One tank, one healer. Those two have horn. Neither has purge. I rarely use them, and usually only when a particular fancy strikes me. When I play them its usually questing, so they have the DD talents on the bar (which usually does not include horn, or purge).
So for them, sure, I got the benefit of horn while also grinding out vigor (or caltrops, it depends on when I made them and what the FotM pvp skill was needed for PVE).
I do not like pvp. I only set foot in Cyro or Imp City when I have to (finish quests; get skyshards). For my use cases, Rapids was the most important skill to obtain. Vigor was rarely a requirement since I prefer magic over stam.
Once again, the point of what I was attempting to convey with my comments -- swapping vigor with rapids is not an ideal swap. Smarter would have been to put vigor as first skill in support. PVErs and PVPrs could all get behind that, I thought.1 -
nukk3r✭✭✭✭✭
✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
1. there are other available heals for dps.
2. the fact that your reasoning involved playing with game WITHOUT A HEALER IN A TRINITY BASED GAME is one of the reasons it is a BAD idea to implement this change. not that it will affect players who run vDLC dungeons with 3dps setup - because those players tend to have everything maxed out anyways or close to it. this is NOT how majority of the players play.
3. yes I play a healer. yes I've done an occasional vDLC dungeon, as a healer. and it shows how CRAPPY the design of those dungeons is that players would rather go with tank/3dps setup. it shows how unbalanced the design is, where healing makes SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE compared to bypassing mechanics by dpsing faster.
1. There are no other available heals for stamblade. What do you expect people that play this class to do? Necromancer's class heals are all magicka based. What should stamina characters do?
2. How do you know about the majority not playing this way? Just because we have three roles doesn't mean that we need all of them for every dungeon.
3. So do I and I can say that it's not a DD problem. Want something changed, ask for significant healer changes for PvE. Also healing is crucial in PvP, just saying.Edited by nukk3r on August 19, 2020 10:33PM1 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.
Please stop with this fake dichotomy. People who actually play this game do both PvE and PvP, maybe not in exactly 50/50 proportion but still. Rapids is inessential skill for PvE (doing dungeons and trials), it doesn't buff your DPS, provide heals or help you with taunting the mobs. It's a pure mobility skill which is needed for exactly one main activity, which is travelling around Cyrodiil and you're using it to pick flowers.
i am not sure about what is false about my statement, ok i will concede that my statement that PVPers don't like PVE is a off, and is an assumption of fact. So i will adjust it to this. Based on my observations of and reading of posts in these forums, there are a lot of PVPers that don't like to complete PVE content to gain access to skills. Players complaining about having to grind out PVE content is what led ZOS to monetize skills and skill points in the crown store.
There corrected, and while we are correcting statements lets talk about just how many players PVP. because lets face it, if half of the player base actively PVPed then we would have way more campaigns active and each of the current PVP campaigns would be pop locked all of the time. Case in point Mid-year Mayhem style numbers, its not anywhere close to an even split. The same is true for endgame PVE content i will admit. Most of the player base are basic casual players that do RP, Crafting, housing, Fishing, Farming, harvesting, socializing, questing, etc. many of which use rapids to get things they need done.
I mean i could make the same comment about vigor, on a magicka toon its pointless, i admit that its good for tanks and stam builds, but thats not all of the population or all of the builds. I mean even if we assume an even split between Tank, Healer, Stam DPS, and Mag DPS vigor is only useful to half of those builds and not every stam DPS or tank uses the skill.
A reduction in mobility impacts everyone, maybe not in combat but it has helped me
1) complete my tasks faster by a measurable margin i will say that in an average day it saves me 30 to 45 minutes of traveling from place to place
2). It has helped me avoid combat on many occasions, now you may say that maybe that shouldn't be the case, but in PVP you have to admit that sometimes avoiding combat is just as important as engaging. In PVE its much the same, mobility means that you can avoid/evade combat when you need to.
Ultimately i don't blame any players for this change or even liking it, i get why it's good for a portion of the community, I just don't feel that this particular change is good for the majority. for as much as ZOS likes to say they balance things, this change is lazy and a band-aid to fix issues that are gaping wounds that they could have addressed years ago.1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
1. there are other available heals for dps.
2. the fact that your reasoning involved playing with game WITHOUT A HEALER IN A TRINITY BASED GAME is one of the reasons it is a BAD idea to implement this change. not that it will affect players who run vDLC dungeons with 3dps setup - because those players tend to have everything maxed out anyways or close to it. this is NOT how majority of the players play.
3. yes I play a healer. yes I've done an occasional vDLC dungeon, as a healer. and it shows how CRAPPY the design of those dungeons is that players would rather go with tank/3dps setup. it shows how unbalanced the design is, where healing makes SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE compared to bypassing mechanics by dpsing faster.
1. There are no other available heals for stamblade. What do you expect people that play this class to do? Necromancer's class heals are all magicka based. What should stamina characters do?
2. How do you know about the majority not playing this way? Just because we have three roles doesn't mean that we need all of them for every dungeon~.
3. So do I and I can say that it's not a DD problem. Want something changed, ask for significant healer changes for PvE. Also healing is crucial in PvP, just saying.
1. I expect ZoS to FIX STAMBLADE specifically. my main used to be stamblade (she was the reason I originally quit ESO shortly post launch because of how painful she was to play and I did end up eventually speccing her into magika healing. i KNOW the pain of stamblade. but I also play other characters and I wish I started with something other then stamblade, i may not have quit the game when I did back then. but this is a stamblade SPECIFIC issue and so it should be solved for stamblade, WITHOUT affecting quality of life for everyone - including aforementioned stamblade who can and does ALSO find rapids useful)
2. I know because this style of play requires certain dps numbers. dps numbers that most players do NOT seem to be anywhere near hitting.
3. healing might be crucial in pvp, but it certainly does NOT require vigor. I'm not much for pvp I'll be honest, but my SO plays almost entirely pvp. and what he tells me that the biggest thing that saves him is NOT having a heal available, but rather having enough stamina/regen available to keep breaking out of being locked down and therefore being able to kill the opponent before they kill him.
and btw, i didn't say it was a dps problem I said it was a DUNGEON DESIGN problem.Edited by Linaleah on August 19, 2020 10:39PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
To be quite honest here, and this is an honest question. Should players be able to complete vet DLC content without a healer build being present?
I mean if we are going to go with having 3 DD's slotting 1 skill means that you can avoid recruiting a single support role build type then maybe the skill needs an adjustment to prevent that. Group content such as dungeons and trials are meant to have dedicated healers. If that is no longer the case then, why does the Role system even exist in game at all? why not remove it completely? Or should ZOS remove such skills and require a dedicated healer?
4 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
Except I never use either horn or purge. <shrug>
So you're telling me that you have 12 PvE DDs?
i personally as an altoholic have 27 PVE DDs, 3 tanks, 3 healers, all in various stages of development. i cycle through them according to a schedule, and in reaction to changes that occur during game update. ZOS likes to change things so often that i pefer the flexibility of being able to change classes and builds accordingly. my remaining characters are used for crafting and just messing around with gear and builds. As an altoholic i acknowledge that having so many characters means i agree to a certain amount of grinding, however, it doesn't mean invalidate my opinion that this change was not needed and worse for the community. As i can make the same argument that if Vigor is as powerful as people are claiming then surely its worth the grind to get it.
But whatever, like i said before, its too late at this point to change anything for this update as if ZOS hasn't changed their mind by now then they wont even look at it again for 3 to 6 months. It is what it is, I don't like it, but its happening. We will see how people react in game. come monday. Good Luck with the AOE testing that starts next week. its going to be fun watching THAT from the sidelines, without rapids....0 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What up with all these people saying they earned rapids. You went into PvP and skipped the training to unlock it. Let's not make it seem like an investment.
So now vigor will be the effortless skill? i don't see the the argument here. magicka users at lvl 10 could grab this skill then go find a battle, so your going to replace that with a heal that is worse than a back bar resto staff for a magicka user?2 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »
This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!
New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.
are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?
and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.
this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).
Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.
tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?
is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.
Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.
There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.
the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.
Small nit-pick, I never put for an argument for the change. Just poked holes in your argument.
But here's my idea. Remove rapids altogether. Make the baseline speed same as a fully upgraded mount. Everyone is now fast!
But what do we do with the speed stat? Make it into a damage resist that is removed from the stam component of the mounts stats. Make sprint and dismount protection separate energy pools. ZoS can still sell training books and a more meaningful PvP skill can be introduced.1 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What up with all these people saying they earned rapids. You went into PvP and skipped the training to unlock it. Let's not make it seem like an investment.
That is what was required to earn it... just because it was easy to do doesn't mean it wasn't earned.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger70,730 achievement points4 -
fierackas✭✭✭✭✭I hope some of the dismissive pvp players aren't going to come to the forums complaining when they can't get in their campaigns because they are full of pver's grinding rapids
6 -
nukk3r✭✭✭✭✭
✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
1. there are other available heals for dps.
2. the fact that your reasoning involved playing with game WITHOUT A HEALER IN A TRINITY BASED GAME is one of the reasons it is a BAD idea to implement this change. not that it will affect players who run vDLC dungeons with 3dps setup - because those players tend to have everything maxed out anyways or close to it. this is NOT how majority of the players play.
3. yes I play a healer. yes I've done an occasional vDLC dungeon, as a healer. and it shows how CRAPPY the design of those dungeons is that players would rather go with tank/3dps setup. it shows how unbalanced the design is, where healing makes SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE compared to bypassing mechanics by dpsing faster.
1. There are no other available heals for stamblade. What do you expect people that play this class to do? Necromancer's class heals are all magicka based. What should stamina characters do?
2. How do you know about the majority not playing this way? Just because we have three roles doesn't mean that we need all of them for every dungeon~.
3. So do I and I can say that it's not a DD problem. Want something changed, ask for significant healer changes for PvE. Also healing is crucial in PvP, just saying.
1. I expect ZoS to FIX STAMBLADE specifically. my main used to be stamblade (she was the reason I originally quit ESO shortly post launch because of how painful she was to play and I did end up eventually speccing her into magika healing. i KNOW the pain of stamblade. but I also play other characters and I wish I started with something other then stamblade, i may not have quit the game when I did back then. but this is a stamblade SPECIFIC issue and so it should be solved for stamblade, WITHOUT affecting quality of life for everyone - including aforementioned stamblade who can and does ALSO find rapids useful)
2. I know because this style of play requires certain dps numbers. dps numbers that most players do NOT seem to be anywhere near hitting.
3. healing might be crucial in pvp, but it certainly does NOT require vigor. I'm not much for pvp I'll be honest, but my SO plays almost entirely pvp. and what he tells me that the biggest thing that saves him is NOT having a heal available, but rather having enough stamina/regen available to keep breaking out of being locked down and therefore being able to kill the opponent before they kill him.
and btw, i didn't say it was a dps problem I said it was a DUNGEON DESIGN problem.
1. We voiced our points and are at stalemate here.
2. It's not just about DPS. It's about situational awareness because sometimes you need to pace the damage to control the mechanics. It's not always as easy as just stack and burn, even if you bring good DPS.
3. Vigor is essential when your group gets silenced and stam DDs use it as off-heal while the group moves out of Negate. Your SO seems to play solo or in an unorganized group. But even solo players use it.0 -
Guyle✭✭✭✭✭Bottom line, ZOS doesn't care about making vigor more accessible, they care about how having vigor take longer to get doesn't create the possibility for promoting crown store sales, but making rapids further out of reach does. If they were so concerned with making stam smoother and easier, why did it take them 4 years to even make vigor decent? And why did it take them 6 years to stumble upon the epiphany of having vigor unlock first being better for stam? Make no mistake, they have the metrics that is the driving force behind this decision, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if there are hard board graphs showing the number of toons that are brought into Cyrodil at lvl 10, unlock rapids and then never or hardly ever pvp again, how often they then use rapids, and how many riding speed lessons are purchased from the crown store. Presumably there is likely a distinct negative correlation between unlocking rapids and crown speed lesson purchases, distinctly juxtaposed by a higher positive correlation between players that don't unlock rapids and do purchase crown speed lessons.
I mean, why else make a change that is actively going to take an extremely popular skill away from people who have it unlocked? Any sensible course of action would have had them finding a way to have vigor unlock at the same time as rapids, so that those of us who have it don't lose it, and those of us used to getting it early wouldn't have that change. This whole thing screams 'vampirism/werewolf curse/cure is on sale in the crown store!' to me. Just watch, launcher announcements about small discount sales of speed lessons will be popping up often after this change goes live.6 -
finehair✭✭✭✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.
How is this any different than any other skill line? i mean you get blade of woe just for completing a quest, werewolf transformation, etc. So now i get vigor unlocked for doing nothing instead. i mean i guess my level 10 stamina characters will get a heal for free that they don't need. in exchange i lose mobility and TIME. more than half my characters wont benefit from this change, and ALL are losing it and its going to take time to get the skill BACK. Time that i could use doing things that i actually LIKE to do. Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.
really mine and other peoples complaints about this change is NOT that we don't like having access to vigor, its that ZOS is taking away a skill that we use and we use a LOT. and on all of my characters, its not like a standard nerf, where i can just roll another character and go with it, because that strategy actually makes it worse.
Honestly, i would be WAY less upset about this change if 1) Mount Training was changed to allow faster progression, 2) ZOS reduced the crown price of the mount scrolls, 3) ZOS moved Rapids out of PVP, or 4) moved to slot one of the support line.
At this point, ZOS is unlikely to change anything, and lets be honest. ZOS wont even consider making a change for another 6 months at least.
and for all of you out there that think that this will bring people into PVP, you might be right, but be aware that it probably wont bring people into PVP that you want in PVP. The next time i see a thread complaining about zergs, well i will reference this change in every single one.
I was referring to people who think that they got rapids by putting work into it. Entering Cyrodiil and talking to npc is not work. Grinding ap to get the most reliable stam heal in the game and morphing it is putting a small work.
Sure your characters might not need it, but I only enjoy melee stam characters both pve and pvp and vigor is a must. Getting it early on would be better while grinding or doing anything combat related by myself.
And to people saying "You can get heals in random zergs group from healers", well no because there are like no dedicated healers in random lfg groups most of the time, and pvping without no self heal slotted means you will get 1 shotted by flaming oil or a fire ballista.0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This happens, but not often. Since high level players either play through those zones once, or just don't bother with those starting zones since they are so crowded. Overall this change mainly affects low level players vs low level players(new players, alts, and bots).
Actually, it does make it easier. Since alts can't use that skill early on either. Leveling the playing field between all players who are starting out! (while at the same time taking it from bots)Thechuckage wrote: »
This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!
New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.
are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?
and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.
this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).
Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.
tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?
is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.
Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.
There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.
the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.
The only thing players are 'competing' for in PvE is resource nodes, and with this change everyone starting out can run to them at the same speed. New and experienced players.
Eventually experienced players will go for that skill soon anyway, but atleast for the first 10 or so levels, it balances out. Making it more fair to everyone.
Look at it from a new player perspective, when all experienced players on alts take all resource nodes away before your eyes. And all the while there is nothing you can do about it, as they move faster than you. A new player would feel bad, and might quit the game because of it. While this change is only a minor inconvenience for existing players who are starting alts.
A fair and level playing field starting out, is a good thing. New players will kill slower, and won't know the game that well. So overall new players are still at a disadvantage vs alts, but nothing that actually takes something away from them anymore.
You know this game is scaled, right? The days of higher level players not getting loot in low level zones are long over.
What stops an established player from making an orc with medium armor and swift jewelry and enough CP to unlock Wind Runner AND Rapids from going to whatever zones the lowbies are at and outrunning all of them?
I don't get all the complaining about this change tbh, actual players will still be able to easily unlock rapids. It just ain't a no-investment-required QoL skill anymore.
there are so many things high level players do in low level zones nowadays - especially with antiquities being added to the game
Exactly.
I'm one of those CP1k+ guys running around one shotting wolves and spiders for hours trying to get some braziers or a mythic ring or whatever. I'm AvA maxed, so it's not a problem for me. But I can forsee a lot of frustration from those who wake up one day and suddenly find themselves running and riding in slow motion. Will they break out their wallets, will they reluctantly queue for BGs or Cyro, or will they simply walk away in disgust? We shall see.... soon.
3 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bottom line, ZOS doesn't care about making vigor more accessible, they care about how having vigor take longer to get doesn't create the possibility for promoting crown store sales, but making rapids further out of reach does. If they were so concerned with making stam smoother and easier, why did it take them 4 years to even make vigor decent? And why did it take them 6 years to stumble upon the epiphany of having vigor unlock first being better for stam? Make no mistake, they have the metrics that is the driving force behind this decision, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if there are hard board graphs showing the number of toons that are brought into Cyrodil at lvl 10, unlock rapids and then never or hardly ever pvp again, how often they then use rapids, and how many riding speed lessons are purchased from the crown store. Presumably there is likely a distinct negative correlation between unlocking rapids and crown speed lesson purchases, distinctly juxtaposed by a higher positive correlation between players that don't unlock rapids and do purchase crown speed lessons.
I mean, why else make a change that is actively going to take an extremely popular skill away from people who have it unlocked? Any sensible course of action would have had them finding a way to have vigor unlock at the same time as rapids, so that those of us who have it don't lose it, and those of us used to getting it early wouldn't have that change. This whole thing screams 'vampirism/werewolf curse/cure is on sale in the crown store!' to me. Just watch, launcher announcements about small discount sales of speed lessons will be popping up often after this change goes live.
Boom, there you go.So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.4 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.
How is this any different than any other skill line? i mean you get blade of woe just for completing a quest, werewolf transformation, etc. So now i get vigor unlocked for doing nothing instead. i mean i guess my level 10 stamina characters will get a heal for free that they don't need. in exchange i lose mobility and TIME. more than half my characters wont benefit from this change, and ALL are losing it and its going to take time to get the skill BACK. Time that i could use doing things that i actually LIKE to do. Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.
really mine and other peoples complaints about this change is NOT that we don't like having access to vigor, its that ZOS is taking away a skill that we use and we use a LOT. and on all of my characters, its not like a standard nerf, where i can just roll another character and go with it, because that strategy actually makes it worse.
Honestly, i would be WAY less upset about this change if 1) Mount Training was changed to allow faster progression, 2) ZOS reduced the crown price of the mount scrolls, 3) ZOS moved Rapids out of PVP, or 4) moved to slot one of the support line.
At this point, ZOS is unlikely to change anything, and lets be honest. ZOS wont even consider making a change for another 6 months at least.
and for all of you out there that think that this will bring people into PVP, you might be right, but be aware that it probably wont bring people into PVP that you want in PVP. The next time i see a thread complaining about zergs, well i will reference this change in every single one.
I was referring to people who think that they got rapids by putting work into it. Entering Cyrodiil and talking to npc is not work. Grinding ap to get the most reliable stam heal in the game and morphing it is putting a small work.
Sure your characters might not need it, but I only enjoy melee stam characters both pve and pvp and vigor is a must. Getting it early on would be better while grinding or doing anything combat related by myself.
And to people saying "You can get heals in random zergs group from healers", well no because there are like no dedicated healers in random lfg groups most of the time, and pvping without no self heal slotted means you will get 1 shotted by flaming oil or a fire ballista.
I understand that it's a good heal, but really that just speaks to an issue with the imbalances within the class and weapon system. As far as healers in pvp, that honestly is an issue with how pvp is set up. And is dying to siege weapons a bad thing? I mean they ARE siege weapons. And in most cases you know when they are going to hit. Maybe you shouldn't be able to heal through them at all. If we a at a state in the game that one skill is that powerful for a certain build that it in effect eradicates the entire need for a role it either is too powerful or the entire role system needs to reevaluated, why have healers at all if no one needs them.3 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »
This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!
New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.
are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?
and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.
this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).
Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.
tell me something. do you think its fair that someone who has been playing for at least 6 months and has maxed out horse speed.... gets to the resource faster then a new player?
is it fair that someone can open their wallet and do that, while another player can not? RAPIDS WAS THE EQUALIZER. that is the POINT.
Whats stopping that same player who has the max mount speed from also using rapids? It can quite easily equalize nothing. As a new player, you are going to have less perks. There are no 2 ways around it. Long time players have the option of using excess gold or materials to boost up any alts. Brand new to the game, not so much.
There are arguments to be made over the switch (none terribly good IMO) but that is one of the weakest.
the argument that the change is a good one is weak for precisely the reason you stated. long time players have more options. however. rapids are STILL beneficial to just about any class. saving your own personal time is STILL beneficial even if you cannot compete with longer playing players. removing rapids is NOT going to make competing with long term players any easier.
Small nit-pick, I never put for an argument for the change. Just poked holes in your argument.
But here's my idea. Remove rapids altogether. Make the baseline speed same as a fully upgraded mount. Everyone is now fast!
But what do we do with the speed stat? Make it into a damage resist that is removed from the stam component of the mounts stats. Make sprint and dismount protection separate energy pools. ZoS can still sell training books and a more meaningful PvP skill can be introduced.
I'm a little iffy on the selling of actual resistances in a shop, but as long as they are achievable via in game means (like training your horse or whatnot) its a very much acceptable compromise. I mean... i do use rapids without being mounted. a LOT. more then I do while mounted. so I would rather they just move vigor to support tree and have both rapids and vigor as rank one skills.
but in a nutshell, I'm mainly unhappy about being slowed down after years of having acess to an ability that alleviates it. unless I grind every alt through pvp. its not that I completely hate pvp. but I tend to play in only a few select characters... because those are the characters I enjoy in pvp. I don't enjoy EVERY class in pvp. and i don't believe its in any way unreasonable.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.
because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.
THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.
What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.
if you have time to create these slippery slopes, you have time to farm vigor on your stam toons
see how ridiculous that sounds?
sometimes its as simple as being able to get to writ turn in from last crafting station just a little bit faster.
and also. its not merely about time. its specifically about time to do things YOU WANT to do. if I WANTED to serf a zerg, I would be surfing it already.
I did my time and have no troubles with it.
Running between crafting stations is cool but it's not PvE. Vigor on the other hand is a difference between a successful 3DD vDLC run and a failed one. You'd know that if you set your foot there once.
@Tinolyn You're the first one in these threads who said that they actually do something with all those characters (12 is reasonable). You may have had to rush a character but you also got other useful skills along the way such as Horn and Purge.
1. there are other available heals for dps.
2. the fact that your reasoning involved playing with game WITHOUT A HEALER IN A TRINITY BASED GAME is one of the reasons it is a BAD idea to implement this change. not that it will affect players who run vDLC dungeons with 3dps setup - because those players tend to have everything maxed out anyways or close to it. this is NOT how majority of the players play.
3. yes I play a healer. yes I've done an occasional vDLC dungeon, as a healer. and it shows how CRAPPY the design of those dungeons is that players would rather go with tank/3dps setup. it shows how unbalanced the design is, where healing makes SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE compared to bypassing mechanics by dpsing faster.
1. There are no other available heals for stamblade. What do you expect people that play this class to do? Necromancer's class heals are all magicka based. What should stamina characters do?
2. How do you know about the majority not playing this way? Just because we have three roles doesn't mean that we need all of them for every dungeon~.
3. So do I and I can say that it's not a DD problem. Want something changed, ask for significant healer changes for PvE. Also healing is crucial in PvP, just saying.
1. I expect ZoS to FIX STAMBLADE specifically. my main used to be stamblade (she was the reason I originally quit ESO shortly post launch because of how painful she was to play and I did end up eventually speccing her into magika healing. i KNOW the pain of stamblade. but I also play other characters and I wish I started with something other then stamblade, i may not have quit the game when I did back then. but this is a stamblade SPECIFIC issue and so it should be solved for stamblade, WITHOUT affecting quality of life for everyone - including aforementioned stamblade who can and does ALSO find rapids useful)
2. I know because this style of play requires certain dps numbers. dps numbers that most players do NOT seem to be anywhere near hitting.
3. healing might be crucial in pvp, but it certainly does NOT require vigor. I'm not much for pvp I'll be honest, but my SO plays almost entirely pvp. and what he tells me that the biggest thing that saves him is NOT having a heal available, but rather having enough stamina/regen available to keep breaking out of being locked down and therefore being able to kill the opponent before they kill him.
and btw, i didn't say it was a dps problem I said it was a DUNGEON DESIGN problem.
1. We voiced our points and are at stalemate here.
2. It's not just about DPS. It's about situational awareness because sometimes you need to pace the damage to control the mechanics. It's not always as easy as just stack and burn, even if you bring good DPS.
3. Vigor is essential when your group gets silenced and stam DDs use it as off-heal while the group moves out of Negate. Your SO seems to play solo or in an unorganized group. But even solo players use it.
1. so it seems
2. no its not, but that's kinda the point. DLC dungeons are designed in a way where either damage is not enough to have to have dedicated healer to heal through it/cleanse it/whatever. or its so much that you get one shot. there is rarely any in between. and if in between happens, more often then not - mechanics are set up in a way where burning down the things that create damage that needs to be healed - can be killed too quickly to go through with that damage ability. (and that requires dps numbers. even while you are goign through mechanics, you HAVE to have those numbers which not a lot of people do and that is also an issue with wide disparity of potential dps due to how combat system works, but that's a whole other can of worms)
3. I was under impression that when you get silenced by negate, you cannot use ANY ability, stam OR magika? was my experience of negate wrong somehow? granted its been a while since I took a stam character into a situation where they would encounter negates from players, but i'm pretty certain npc negates locked me out of all the skills - stam OR magika)
my SO does play solo a lot of the time, because with change to BG queue, we cannot queue up together anymore, (and Cyro requires a certain degree of being in a mood for that particular kind of gameplay), but while some solo players use it, do all of them? does every stam character? other then fiddling with mag sorc last year and I think his first character was a magblade, he plays almost exclusively stam characters. he doesn't have vigor on his bars, last I checked. (he is not playing a stamblade, so that likely contributes, but as i say.. this is an issue that must be solved specifically for STAMBLADE)Edited by Linaleah on August 20, 2020 5:12AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
finehair✭✭✭✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.
How is this any different than any other skill line? i mean you get blade of woe just for completing a quest, werewolf transformation, etc. So now i get vigor unlocked for doing nothing instead. i mean i guess my level 10 stamina characters will get a heal for free that they don't need. in exchange i lose mobility and TIME. more than half my characters wont benefit from this change, and ALL are losing it and its going to take time to get the skill BACK. Time that i could use doing things that i actually LIKE to do. Some of us really really really dont like PVP as i am sure that PVPers really really dont like PVE, which is how we ended up with purchasable skill lines, skyshards etc. But please understand that while Rapids is a PVP skill, it is used a LOT in PVE, just like there are PVE lines that are used in PVP.
really mine and other peoples complaints about this change is NOT that we don't like having access to vigor, its that ZOS is taking away a skill that we use and we use a LOT. and on all of my characters, its not like a standard nerf, where i can just roll another character and go with it, because that strategy actually makes it worse.
Honestly, i would be WAY less upset about this change if 1) Mount Training was changed to allow faster progression, 2) ZOS reduced the crown price of the mount scrolls, 3) ZOS moved Rapids out of PVP, or 4) moved to slot one of the support line.
At this point, ZOS is unlikely to change anything, and lets be honest. ZOS wont even consider making a change for another 6 months at least.
and for all of you out there that think that this will bring people into PVP, you might be right, but be aware that it probably wont bring people into PVP that you want in PVP. The next time i see a thread complaining about zergs, well i will reference this change in every single one.
I was referring to people who think that they got rapids by putting work into it. Entering Cyrodiil and talking to npc is not work. Grinding ap to get the most reliable stam heal in the game and morphing it is putting a small work.
Sure your characters might not need it, but I only enjoy melee stam characters both pve and pvp and vigor is a must. Getting it early on would be better while grinding or doing anything combat related by myself.
And to people saying "You can get heals in random zergs group from healers", well no because there are like no dedicated healers in random lfg groups most of the time, and pvping without no self heal slotted means you will get 1 shotted by flaming oil or a fire ballista.
I understand that it's a good heal, but really that just speaks to an issue with the imbalances within the class and weapon system. As far as healers in pvp, that honestly is an issue with how pvp is set up. And is dying to siege weapons a bad thing? I mean they ARE siege weapons. And in most cases you know when they are going to hit. Maybe you shouldn't be able to heal through them at all. If we a at a state in the game that one skill is that powerful for a certain build that it in effect eradicates the entire need for a role it either is too powerful or the entire role system needs to reevaluated, why have healers at all if no one needs them.
You can heal through with vigor at most 1-2 fire ballista shots, and maybe 2 oils and you won't be able to do fight anyone while those dots are on you. Sure realistically you can't survive a flaming oil, but then if you look at it this way how come my tank can block the attacks of a divine being with a wooden shield in sanctum ophidia?
Yes you do know when the sieges are going to hit, but during prime time PvP it's red circles everywhere, and you simply choose fire ballista shot to coldfire ballista shot sometimes.
Vigor doesn't make healers absolute, it's just "I gotta save myself and myself only" heal.
I've seen literally no one using aoe morph other than ball groups, and it is to survive through negates we throw at them, their main heal is stacked resto heals.0 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.
I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway2 -
Kosef✭✭✭✭This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.
I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.
WHO IS ARGUING lol. Why is there only the option of this or that. The solution has been stated many times...move vigor or rapids to the Support line and make it available as the first skill. So both skills are available at the same time. Or move Vigor or rapids to the Fighters Guild skill line that levels quickly. Everything doesn't always have to be black or white.Server: PC-NAGuild:
Vincent Jurard - Breton - DK
Aronil Elsinwatch - Altmer - Templar
Ulfgar Stormbringer - Nord - Sorc
Ra'Jhera Mahrabi - Khajiit - NB
Kur Zahir - Imperial - Necro
Khur - Redguard - Warden
Lives-By-Sword - Argonian - DK
Sara Willowthorn - Bosmer - Templar
Elsa Bjariksen - Nord - NB
Soliril Elsinthar - Altmer - Sorc
Khargol Ogdum - Orc - Warden
Veros Sarvani - Dunmer - Necro
Vedran The Toxic - Dunmer - DK
Hafnar Ironbark - Nord Warden
Low - Level: Arcturus The Loyal - Templar
[Ninja Squirrels]6 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭This argument seems to boil down to magic players against stamina players. Vigor is way more essential than rapids for stamina players, but magic builds couldn't care less if it affects how fast they can farm nodes on their 15th alt.
I mean it's funny, magic builds complaining about how players who don't use Rapids are being selfish yet they are pissing on how much more difficult content is for stamina players without a heal in favor of farming faster? Hilarious.
WHO IS ARGUING lol. Why is there only the option of this or that. The solution has been stated many times...move vigor or rapids to the Support line and make it available as the first skill. So both skills are available at the same time. Or move Vigor or rapids to the Fighters Guild skill line that levels quickly. Everything doesn't always have to be black or white.
While I didn't read all the responses I did note several arguments lol. I agree that there has been many a viable alternative to the current plan, I'm just speaking on the decision from the devs, which appears black and white.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway1
