Jaraal wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the point here.

It’s becoming quite clear that the goal is not so much about giving stamina characters a heal, but rather (A) slowing players down to increase server performance, and (B) selling AvA skill lines to your alts as well as selling multi player mounts so the now slow characters will still be able to get around the battlefield with their groups.

This is not about QOL improvements. It’s about improving the bottom line.

I fully agree. There is always a greater good for Zenimax behind good deeds.

[snip]

No one buys skill lines with crowns. Certainly not assault or support. ZOS just thought they were doing people a favor since Vigor is in such high demand and were completely ignorant to the fact that EVERYONE gets Rapid Maneuvers too whereas only Stamina bother with Vigor.

[edited for bashing]

As I have said many times before vigor should be in the fighter’s guild skill line early on and not the assault skill line. The original 4 class stamina variation did not have good self-healing and needed vigor to heal themselves and new players are at a disadvantage because of it.

The loss of rapids will be felt by many player’s who don’t like PVP but it really is just more of a convenience thing for them compared to healing for others which is essential.

It takes about 2 hours to unlock vigor now in BG’s so 2 hours now to unlock rapids in the next patch.

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Just PvP bro it takes 5 minutes to get vigor as it is on live I don’t see the point here.

Because it doesn't take 5 minutes bro. Even if you go into Cyrodiil, spam zone chat for a zerg group, and find that zerg group and happen to luck out and the zerg group is defending and not assaulting, it still takes 2 or 3 defenses to do this. That's easily an hour if not 2.

But that's best case scenario. In reality, you do the above and 9 times out of 10 you're assaulting things. Now you don't have access to Rapids to keep up with your group. So if you manage to get to the keep before it's already captured, great. But chances are you're so far behind the zerg and you'll be picked off.

The horrors of having to pvp for an hour or two. Oh and btw u don't even need rapids when u are in a group. Anyone else casting it close to you will give the buff to you anw.

That is not the point.

The point is ZOS recognized something that may make the leveling process easier for newer players. They didn't put any real thought or effort into making the decision they did and in doing so, made things worse. As said before, the entire support tree could probably be deleted from the game tomorrow without a word and the vast majority of players would never have noticed. It should have been obvious to ZOS that as valuable and important as vigor is to leveling, rapid maneuvers is equally important, if not more so since more than just stamina classes use it.

This is another in a long line of short-sighted mistakes that ZOS has made, asked for feedback on, ignored all feedback, and pushed forward with their short-sighted change regardless.

That's the point. [snip] I have 2 of every class in the game already at level 50, geared out with enough skill points to do anything I want. This change means nothing to me. But I'm not oblivious to what it's like playing this game as a new player and it's obvious how this change does more harm than good.

As it is right now, ZOS changed nothing other than to make everyone PvP for longer than they may want to instead of just the stamina classes.

[edited for baiting]

You may be overestimating the "need" for rapids. Not everyone is in a rush.

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

... I believe that it's in both camps interests to pursue a mutually beneficial solution which has been muted repeatedly since the change to rapids was announced.

Yes, because sure, PvPers aren't worried about it because they already have access to both Rapids and Vigor (myself included), so it's not an issue for them. It is, however, an issue for PvPers because of the population caps and queues.... because now there will be folks who'd rather be doing something else filling those slots.

So basically it's a lose/lose proposition for all.

I think they considered all of this, honestly. I don't think they're short-sighted or dumb. They could have done any kind of moving and swapping and this is what they chose. Give the heal to stamina players quickly, because it's necessary and you can't buy it. Move the convenient skill farther away so that people have to choose $ or time. Yes, it's obnoxious. No, it's not an excuse. Yes, it's disrespectful of player experience and time.

This is a good change for a new player, though. I have no max-level characters, no champ points. I like stamina builds. I hate PvP. Because I'm new and I'm experiencing things for the first time, I barely gallop. I cruise to look at the scenery and not miss anything. I do not need to "keep up" with anything, but I do need that heal.

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Just PvP bro it takes 5 minutes to get vigor as it is on live I don’t see the point here.

Because it doesn't take 5 minutes bro. Even if you go into Cyrodiil, spam zone chat for a zerg group, and find that zerg group and happen to luck out and the zerg group is defending and not assaulting, it still takes 2 or 3 defenses to do this. That's easily an hour if not 2.

But that's best case scenario. In reality, you do the above and 9 times out of 10 you're assaulting things. Now you don't have access to Rapids to keep up with your group. So if you manage to get to the keep before it's already captured, great. But chances are you're so far behind the zerg and you'll be picked off.

The horrors of having to pvp for an hour or two. Oh and btw u don't even need rapids when u are in a group. Anyone else casting it close to you will give the buff to you anw.

Can't the same be said about getting Vigor?

And again, my experience helping guildies is that it takes a non-experienced-in-PvP player about 3 hours to get from level 3 to level 5. Longer if they are starting at level 1. Per character.

pieratsos wrote: »

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

In PVE Rapids is QoL. In cyrodiil you cannot get to castles before they flip. You cannot get to a battle in between castles before they end (unless it is a protracted battle). If you are in a castle as it flips, you cannot get to more than 1 resource flip if they haven't flipped already. Try running from your home base to the nearest home gate castle and time how long it takes with a horse speed less than 10 and no rapids.

If even a small group of 6 to 8 people start sieging a home gate castle, without rapids, you won't be able to get to the castle before it flips unless you leave the second the first siege goes up. If you only learn about the siege when a castle gets flagged,(which is how you learn of a siege in a lot of cases) you are not going to make it.

Being in group is not a solution. Unless everyone is running at the same speed as you, before the first rapid runs out you will be behind the others and outside the range where rapids cast by others will hit you. Someone has to babysit you and make sure they go at your speed so you can benefit from rapids every time they cast it.

This change make no sense. Low level solo players in cyrodiil are affected the most - to them Rapids is vital and not quality of life. Anyone who doesn't get this has never gone solo in cyrodiil on a slow horse.

pieratsos wrote: »

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

In PVE Rapids is QoL. In cyrodiil you cannot get to castles before they flip. You cannot get to a battle in between castles before they end (unless it is a protracted battle). If you are in a castle as it flips, you cannot get to more than 1 resource flip if they haven't flipped already. Try running from your home base to the nearest home gate castle and time how long it takes with a horse speed less than 10 and no rapids.

If even a small group of 6 to 8 people start sieging a home gate castle, without rapids, you won't be able to get to the castle before it flips unless you leave the second the first siege goes up. If you only learn about the siege when a castle gets flagged,(which is how you learn of a siege in a lot of cases) you are not going to make it.

Being in group is not a solution. Unless everyone is running at the same speed as you, before the first rapid runs out you will be behind the others and outside the range where rapids cast by others will hit you. Someone has to babysit you and make sure they go at your speed so you can benefit from rapids every time they cast it.

This change make no sense. Low level solo players in cyrodiil are affected the most - to them Rapids is vital and not quality of life. Anyone who doesn't get this has never gone solo in cyrodiil on a slow horse.

You make it sound as if they are deleting it from the game. Let me rephrase, its not vital for the 2-3 hours u will be playing without it. Vital refers to ur ability to perform in an actual combat situation. Being able to run to a keep a few seconds earlier just doesnt cut it as vital and u can still get the buff through other members of ur group.

And no one has to babysit you. You are not going to travel through the entire map and need a million rapid recasts. Jeez with the hyperboles. There are people who dont even bother slotting rapids like ever and they do just fine.

And if u are going to talk about low level then at least be a little more honest. Have u ever seen low level players sieging? If 6 players start sieging a castle i can literally just walk to the keep before they get in. Let alone actually using a mount.

How do you get AP in cyrodiil to level up? Killing players, flipping castles, flipping resources. If you can't go the castle in time, the leveling process becomes needlessly painful and long. Getting to a castle a few seconds too late is a big problem if that is the main source of AP.

On a low level you certainly aren't going to be getting most of your AP by killing tons of people. I get my APs mostly from castle and resource flipping. Sure, if you play long enough and try enough times you will eventually get enough AP to unlock Rapids so if that is your reason for saying it is not vital then you can take that view. You can do a simple experiment yourself - go to cyrodiil on a low level horse (less than 15 speed), wait for castle to flag and try and see if you can there from any other castle without using rapids. How many times do you think you will try to get to a castle and miss getting there in time before you get frustrated? I repeat, for solo low level players, this is primary way to get AP in the beginning. Being in a group may make it easier because you may know which castle the group is heading to and also benefit from other people casting rapids. Going from one castle to another takes 3 to 5 recasting of rapids on a max speed horse. When I take care of a friend on a slow horse, I wait for them multiple times to catch up to me before recasting rapids. Even though I am much faster, I am effectively travelling at the same speed as them to make sure they get all my rapids. This is what I meant by babysit.

I don't understand your comment about low level players and sieging. What low lvl players (or high lvl players) do or don't do when sieging is irrelevant to this topic. It takes a certain amount time for castles to flip on average. Of course, well coordinated emp group with the hammer flip it in seconds and a group of players who don't know how to siege can spend 10 mins and fail. A rough average of the time it takes to flip a castle is less than the time it takes for a low speed horse (without rapids) to get there from any other castle - this is the point I was making. This may be right or it may be wrong. It is not hyperbolic.

Rungar wrote: »

You may be overestimating the "need" for rapids. Not everyone is in a rush.

Of course, it is better to ask for the additional wayshrines, because someone doesn't keep up to the world event in "too small" location.

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

I'm not sure I saw a single post in here asking for anything for free. But ZOS is heavy handed with the censoring so I suppose it could have happened. I think the general sentiment is that things are better off left alone than changed in the way proposed by ZOS. While it's true that this is a 'quality of life' change for Stamina players as clearly leveling as a stamina without a heal is difficult, Rapid Manuevers is no less important to new players and a reasonable argument has been made that it's far more deserving of the first skill slot than the heal. A very reasonable alternative has also been suggested in this thread and many others by the simple fact that the support tree is so lackluster that they could delete it this afternoon and the majority of players likely wouldn't notice or care. And since both are PvP lines and level at the same time, I'm really not sure why people are attempting to play this off as people asking for free handouts.

Both Rapids and Vigor are deserving of the first skill unlock in the PvP tree. There are 2 PvP trees that level up simultaneously. Both Rapids or Vigor would be just as suitable in either tree as both skills blur the line of assault and support. While most of the support skills are harder to shift into the Assault tree, a simple swap could easily be done or an entirely new assault skill could be created while any of the support skills could likely be deleted without anyone noticing or caring.

Too many posters in this thread are spending more time trolling players for suggesting a reasonable alternative than simply debating the proposal to begin with. Again, no one is asking for anything for free. They are simply trying to point out that both Rapids and Vigors are vital skills to new players.

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

Again, wrong.

They aren't asking for anything for free and they aren't asking for this skill to be given for 'hurr durring' in their base.

Every player here acknowledges that in order to unlock these skills one must enter Cyrodiil and contribute to PvP. Unlike some, most recognize that unlocking these skills isn't '10 seconds' but multiple hours of effort, especially should someone attempt to do this the moment they reach level 10.

The complaint is that while stamina players are disadvantaged by having such a vital ability gated behind PvP content (which is a larger question involving poor class design in general and why it's taking so long to overhaul classes), they are making matters worse for a much wider audience by swapping Rapids and Vigor.

People in this thread are proposing, and providing feedback around, the simple fact that both Vigor and Rapids can easily be considered support skills instead of assault, that the entire Support tree is awful, and either one of these skills could be swapped or outright replace any of the Support skills and be placed in the first spot.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

No, wrong again. Unlocking rapids right now doesnt require u to contribute to PVP at all. You get it by talking to two NPCs in ur alliance base. You dont even get to see an enemy player let alone engage in anything PVP related and people are complaining because they are "forced" to actually engage in PVP even for 2 hours. Well that is prety much the definition of asking it for free.

Look im not arguing that they couldnt make both abilities accessible easier. They could just like they could do a lot of other things. But there isnt really any actual reason to say why this change is bad. The skill doesnt hinder ur performance in combat to say its vital and u cant play without it and it doesnt require that much PVP to get it either. In fact one of the best ways to get it (BGs) doesnt require rapids at all.

Well, apart from lots of people who already have rapids having to do PvP to get back a skill they already earned and have been happily using (for years in some cases).

The answer is simple, put vigor in for Siege Shield. It's a heal, it should be in the Support skill line. Everyone wins, people get back their skill, and BG's and Cyrodiil are not filled with people who don't want to be there.

It screws over everyone who does not need or want a stamina heal.

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

I'm not sure I saw a single post in here asking for anything for free. But ZOS is heavy handed with the censoring so I suppose it could have happened. I think the general sentiment is that things are better off left alone than changed in the way proposed by ZOS. While it's true that this is a 'quality of life' change for Stamina players as clearly leveling as a stamina without a heal is difficult, Rapid Manuevers is no less important to new players and a reasonable argument has been made that it's far more deserving of the first skill slot than the heal. A very reasonable alternative has also been suggested in this thread and many others by the simple fact that the support tree is so lackluster that they could delete it this afternoon and the majority of players likely wouldn't notice or care. And since both are PvP lines and level at the same time, I'm really not sure why people are attempting to play this off as people asking for free handouts.

Both Rapids and Vigor are deserving of the first skill unlock in the PvP tree. There are 2 PvP trees that level up simultaneously. Both Rapids or Vigor would be just as suitable in either tree as both skills blur the line of assault and support. While most of the support skills are harder to shift into the Assault tree, a simple swap could easily be done or an entirely new assault skill could be created while any of the support skills could likely be deleted without anyone noticing or caring.

Too many posters in this thread are spending more time trolling players for suggesting a reasonable alternative than simply debating the proposal to begin with. Again, no one is asking for anything for free. They are simply trying to point out that both Rapids and Vigors are vital skills to new players.

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

yet you're all for "spending 10 seconds in your alliance base" to unlock vigor... the irony

for a skill that only 30% of the player base can even use (either because they're magicka, or they have a stam class heal, like crit surge)... whereas rapids CAN be used by 100% of the playerbase