swap Vigor with Siege Shield instead of Rapid

pieratsos

Hurbster wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

I'm not sure I saw a single post in here asking for anything for free. But ZOS is heavy handed with the censoring so I suppose it could have happened. I think the general sentiment is that things are better off left alone than changed in the way proposed by ZOS. While it's true that this is a 'quality of life' change for Stamina players as clearly leveling as a stamina without a heal is difficult, Rapid Manuevers is no less important to new players and a reasonable argument has been made that it's far more deserving of the first skill slot than the heal. A very reasonable alternative has also been suggested in this thread and many others by the simple fact that the support tree is so lackluster that they could delete it this afternoon and the majority of players likely wouldn't notice or care. And since both are PvP lines and level at the same time, I'm really not sure why people are attempting to play this off as people asking for free handouts.

Both Rapids and Vigor are deserving of the first skill unlock in the PvP tree. There are 2 PvP trees that level up simultaneously. Both Rapids or Vigor would be just as suitable in either tree as both skills blur the line of assault and support. While most of the support skills are harder to shift into the Assault tree, a simple swap could easily be done or an entirely new assault skill could be created while any of the support skills could likely be deleted without anyone noticing or caring.

Too many posters in this thread are spending more time trolling players for suggesting a reasonable alternative than simply debating the proposal to begin with. Again, no one is asking for anything for free. They are simply trying to point out that both Rapids and Vigors are vital skills to new players.

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

Again, wrong.

They aren't asking for anything for free and they aren't asking for this skill to be given for 'hurr durring' in their base.

Every player here acknowledges that in order to unlock these skills one must enter Cyrodiil and contribute to PvP. Unlike some, most recognize that unlocking these skills isn't '10 seconds' but multiple hours of effort, especially should someone attempt to do this the moment they reach level 10.

The complaint is that while stamina players are disadvantaged by having such a vital ability gated behind PvP content (which is a larger question involving poor class design in general and why it's taking so long to overhaul classes), they are making matters worse for a much wider audience by swapping Rapids and Vigor.

People in this thread are proposing, and providing feedback around, the simple fact that both Vigor and Rapids can easily be considered support skills instead of assault, that the entire Support tree is awful, and either one of these skills could be swapped or outright replace any of the Support skills and be placed in the first spot.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

No, wrong again. Unlocking rapids right now doesnt require u to contribute to PVP at all. You get it by talking to two NPCs in ur alliance base. You dont even get to see an enemy player let alone engage in anything PVP related and people are complaining because they are "forced" to actually engage in PVP even for 2 hours. Well that is prety much the definition of asking it for free.

Look im not arguing that they couldnt make both abilities accessible easier. They could just like they could do a lot of other things. But there isnt really any actual reason to say why this change is bad. The skill doesnt hinder ur performance in combat to say its vital and u cant play without it and it doesnt require that much PVP to get it either. In fact one of the best ways to get it (BGs) doesnt require rapids at all.

Well, apart from lots of people who already have rapids having to do PvP to get back a skill they already earned and have been happily using (for years in some cases).

The answer is simple, put vigor in for Siege Shield. It's a heal, it should be in the Support skill line. Everyone wins, people get back their skill, and BG's and Cyrodiil are not filled with people who don't want to be there.

It screws over everyone who does not need or want a stamina heal.

Not arguing that they couldn't swap it for siege shield but you see thats what gets me? How exactly did we earn rapids? Rapids is essentially given for free not earned. Now that it actually has to be earned by doing even minimal pvp everyone loses their mind. Well it's a pvp skill. If people have to do some pvp to get it it's not the end of the world

pieratsos

tmbrinks wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

I'm not sure I saw a single post in here asking for anything for free. But ZOS is heavy handed with the censoring so I suppose it could have happened. I think the general sentiment is that things are better off left alone than changed in the way proposed by ZOS. While it's true that this is a 'quality of life' change for Stamina players as clearly leveling as a stamina without a heal is difficult, Rapid Manuevers is no less important to new players and a reasonable argument has been made that it's far more deserving of the first skill slot than the heal. A very reasonable alternative has also been suggested in this thread and many others by the simple fact that the support tree is so lackluster that they could delete it this afternoon and the majority of players likely wouldn't notice or care. And since both are PvP lines and level at the same time, I'm really not sure why people are attempting to play this off as people asking for free handouts.

Both Rapids and Vigor are deserving of the first skill unlock in the PvP tree. There are 2 PvP trees that level up simultaneously. Both Rapids or Vigor would be just as suitable in either tree as both skills blur the line of assault and support. While most of the support skills are harder to shift into the Assault tree, a simple swap could easily be done or an entirely new assault skill could be created while any of the support skills could likely be deleted without anyone noticing or caring.

Too many posters in this thread are spending more time trolling players for suggesting a reasonable alternative than simply debating the proposal to begin with. Again, no one is asking for anything for free. They are simply trying to point out that both Rapids and Vigors are vital skills to new players.

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

yet you're all for "spending 10 seconds in your alliance base" to unlock vigor... the irony

for a skill that only 30% of the player base can even use (either because they're magicka, or they have a stam class heal, like crit surge)... whereas rapids CAN be used by 100% of the playerbase

I don't remember saying anything about earning vigor tho. You may actually have to learn what irony means before u use it. 😂

But if it's a discussion about which one is more vital then vigor is actually more vital. Vigor is prety much a must for stamina builds to perform good in actual combat. If this wasn't very clear then let me make it more simple, in a combat situation rapids won't do jack, not having vigor however is like crippling ur build. Now take a guess which one is more vital.

tmbrinks

pieratsos wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Atherakhia wrote: »

I'm not sure I saw a single post in here asking for anything for free. But ZOS is heavy handed with the censoring so I suppose it could have happened. I think the general sentiment is that things are better off left alone than changed in the way proposed by ZOS. While it's true that this is a 'quality of life' change for Stamina players as clearly leveling as a stamina without a heal is difficult, Rapid Manuevers is no less important to new players and a reasonable argument has been made that it's far more deserving of the first skill slot than the heal. A very reasonable alternative has also been suggested in this thread and many others by the simple fact that the support tree is so lackluster that they could delete it this afternoon and the majority of players likely wouldn't notice or care. And since both are PvP lines and level at the same time, I'm really not sure why people are attempting to play this off as people asking for free handouts.

Both Rapids and Vigor are deserving of the first skill unlock in the PvP tree. There are 2 PvP trees that level up simultaneously. Both Rapids or Vigor would be just as suitable in either tree as both skills blur the line of assault and support. While most of the support skills are harder to shift into the Assault tree, a simple swap could easily be done or an entirely new assault skill could be created while any of the support skills could likely be deleted without anyone noticing or caring.

Too many posters in this thread are spending more time trolling players for suggesting a reasonable alternative than simply debating the proposal to begin with. Again, no one is asking for anything for free. They are simply trying to point out that both Rapids and Vigors are vital skills to new players.

No they are not asking anything for free. They just don't want to do anything to unlock it because they "hurrr durrr I earned the skill" by spending 10 seconds in their alliance base. Yeah so much difference than not asking anything for free.

And rapids isn't vital. Enough with the hyperboles. It's just quality of life.

yet you're all for "spending 10 seconds in your alliance base" to unlock vigor... the irony

for a skill that only 30% of the player base can even use (either because they're magicka, or they have a stam class heal, like crit surge)... whereas rapids CAN be used by 100% of the playerbase

I don't remember saying anything about earning vigor tho. You may actually have to learn what irony means before u use it. 😂

But if it's a discussion about which one is more vital then vigor is actually more vital. Vigor is prety much a must for stamina builds to perform good in actual combat. If this wasn't very clear then let me make it more simple, in a combat situation rapids won't do jack, not having vigor however is like crippling ur build. Now take a guess which one is more vital.

To allude to one of your earlier arguments...

When you're in a group, you'll be healed by your other group members, so you don't even need Vigor.

Apox

for the sake of everyones alts, dont do this.

simple solution, reduce the requirement of vigor to assault 3. its still very easy to get. you do your cyrodiil intro quest and literally 1 battleground win and you have it

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam @Gilliamtherogue

johnebrown

Rungar wrote: »

You may be overestimating the "need" for rapids. Not everyone is in a rush.

That may be true, but not everybody needs vigor either, and contrary to some of the implications I've seen here, not every stam build need Vigor, nor does every online build uses it for stam builds.

Alhatariel

Please dont do this, ESO. It will be a punishment for all non pvp players!
If this really be implemented I shall not start any new char again and I think many will do the same.

mareeelb16_ESO

Judging by the frosty reception that my less than skilled contribution to BGs is receiving this is going to be torture for a good number of pvp players too 😂

Jaraal

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

Judging by the frosty reception that my less than skilled contribution to BGs is receiving this is going to be torture for a good number of pvp players too 😂

That's a very good point.

Not only are PvEers going to be forced into doing something they don't like, but they will get to read all the messages about how bad they are at PvP, too. Some of the things said will be quite shocking to people who previously enjoyed minding their own business and playing solo all the time.

Fur_like_snow

Can we start a count down clock for when the alts come back to PvP?

Kaivalya

I'd most likely stop playing the game if they make this change. It would be way too aggravating to go back to being so slow, but there's also very little chance that I'd be able to tolerate doing enough PvP to re-earn Rapid on even just one of my characters. Even with lots of advice and help, it took me at least 12 hours, during the PvP event, to get Vigor on one character, and I completely hated every second of it. PvP is just a total cluster-fudge, seems mostly random. If I have to do that on all of my characters to re-get Rapid--I just don't see that happening.

Jaraal

Kaivalya wrote: »

I'd most likely stop playing the game if they make this change. It would be way too aggravating to go back to being so slow, but there's also very little chance that I'd be able to tolerate doing enough PvP to re-earn Rapid on even just one of my characters. Even with lots of advice and help, it took me at least 12 hours, during the PvP event, to get Vigor on one character, and I completely hated every second of it. PvP is just a total cluster-fudge, seems mostly random. If I have to do that on all of my characters to re-get Rapid--I just don't see that happening.

Ahh, but the solution is in the Crown Store! Why go through all that misery on every alt, when you can simply pay money and buy skill lines for each one!

AlnilamE

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Can we start a count down clock for when the alts come back to PvP?

Smart players are in PvP now to get to rank 5 while they still have rapids.

Obsidian3

Jaraal wrote: »

Kaivalya wrote: »

I'd most likely stop playing the game if they make this change. It would be way too aggravating to go back to being so slow, but there's also very little chance that I'd be able to tolerate doing enough PvP to re-earn Rapid on even just one of my characters. Even with lots of advice and help, it took me at least 12 hours, during the PvP event, to get Vigor on one character, and I completely hated every second of it. PvP is just a total cluster-fudge, seems mostly random. If I have to do that on all of my characters to re-get Rapid--I just don't see that happening.

Ahh, but the solution is in the Crown Store! Why go through all that misery on every alt, when you can simply pay money and buy skill lines for each one!

Yeah but this only works if you have one toon that has maxed out the PvP lines. Most PVE'ers aren't even close.

Elvenheart

Kaivalya wrote: »

Ahh, but the solution is in the Crown Store! Why go through all that misery on every alt, when you can simply pay money and buy skill lines for each one!

Yeah but this only works if you have one toon that has maxed out the PvP lines. Most PVE'ers aren't even close.

I think I have one char all the way to 9 for some reason by doing BG during some double AP events, but for me that was like pulling teeth and I don’t know if I can bear to try to go the rest of the way 😱

Mr_Arce88

Rapids must be 1st unlock, otherwise new PvP toons will be unplayable for a long time - you will always be late for battle, especially with all the loading screens slowing you down every 10 sec XD

Hurbster

Got caltrops on a couple of characters, no interest in doing anymore. All my mag characters have rapids only.

eKsDee

AlnilamE wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Can we start a count down clock for when the alts come back to PvP?

Smart players are in PvP now to get to rank 5 while they still have rapids.

Real smart players have come to their senses and just stopped playing this game altogether, to get away from the horrible decisions that Zenimax are making.

Alhatariel

I think we can expect many reactions at the forum about this when it becomes public.

MTC

They want more people to do PvP. And forcing more PvP play (to get Manouver) will achieve that.

Cheers.

Rehdaun

MTC wrote: »

They want more people to do PvP. And forcing more PvP play (to get Manouver) will achieve that.

No, they want to sell their two person mount $$$

MTC

Rehdaun wrote: »

MTC wrote: »

They want more people to do PvP. And forcing more PvP play (to get Manouver) will achieve that.

No, they want to sell their two person mount $$$

I think not. But hey, lets all believe what we wanna

Besides, I find it hard to belive that the mass can bare to rely on friends mounts for any more than just a few days.

Riding Speed Lessions will most likely jump though.

karthrag_inak

pieratsos wrote: »

Well it's a pvp skill. If people have to do some pvp to get it it's not the end of the world

This one is curious. What aspect of "Make the mount go faster" is specifically and exclusively "Pvp"?

mareeelb16_ESO

Alhatariel wrote: »

I think we can expect many reactions at the forum about this when it becomes public.

Absolutely... I won't be surprised if there's a huge reaction when it goes live.

Meanwhile it still makes me laugh how many people are defending the change given that the pvp'ers that I've come across in BGs certainly haven't seemed at all pleased to have me around given my inexperience and general ineptitude in the battles 😂

Despite that I refuse to be apologetic for doing my best in a gameplay that I personally feel cornered into. Bear that in mind the next time you're tempted to berate your team members.

AlnilamE

Alhatariel wrote: »

I think we can expect many reactions at the forum about this when it becomes public.

I'm going to make a big bowl of popcorn next Monday.

majulook

Did ZOS ever state a reason for the swap?

Other than the v6.1.0 Patch notes that it is "to help builds focused on Stamina to have a healthier leveling experience"

Elvenheart

I think moving vigor to the first skill in the support line would be the perfect way to meet their stated goals, and make all the players happy.

Hurbster

AlnilamE wrote: »

Alhatariel wrote: »

I think we can expect many reactions at the forum about this when it becomes public.

I'm going to make a big bowl of popcorn next Monday.

Probably Tuesday by the time PC-EU is back up...

SydneyGrey

Are they still planning to do this ridiculously ill-advised thing? They can just let Vigor unlock at Assault rank 2 instead, if they really feel like they need to change things, or place it as the first unlock in the Soul Magic line, or the first unlock in the Fighter's Guild. This is maddening.

Koubo

Jaraal wrote: »

I think everyone is missing the point here.

It’s becoming quite clear that the goal is not so much about giving stamina characters a heal, but rather (A) slowing players down to increase server performance, and (B) selling AvA skill lines to your alts as well as selling multi player mounts so the now slow characters will still be able to get around the battlefield with their groups.

This is not about QOL improvements. It’s about improving the bottom line.

I would add that Siege shield is occasionnaly used as a dumping mag for vSO HM
Well, i would like this change happen too as i love Stam character but also find mount horribly slow at the begining. But nvm, guess that wont happen

erio

vgabor wrote: »

Dear @ZOS,

please listen to the forum feedback and do this change sensibly. Leave the Rapid as it is now for the new characters and swap Vigor with Siege Shield instead.

Thanks

[Edit for Petition.]

or they could make the first few alliance ranks like 1 bgs worth of ap