Joy_Division wrote: »None. #1 is trivial and the other two are just as disruptive to gameplay as ZoS's.
I know you're trying to help, but the reality is that ZoS needs , err needed, to improve their servers in order to provide the goal of having less lag and a game that will still be enjoyable to play.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Honestly, what I was expecting from the subject line was something like using Manhattan distance instead of Euclidian distance for range calculations.
BXR_Lonestar wrote: »IMO, the elephant in the room here is that high APM players add to increasingly complicated damage calculations because of the pace of their attacks. IMO, they should be trying to resolve animation cancelling in order to slow down the pace of combat to prevent the server from getting overwhelmed by calculations. Light attack weaving is fine, but block/bash cancelling to further increase your dps rate shouldn't be a thing IMO. Addressing the cancelling issue would not only slow down the pace of combat, it would reduce the number of calculations per minute the server has to do which would also help performance.
They should be trying to address the issue in this fashion rather than doing so with cooldowns because enemies don't stay rooted long enough for aoe abilities to be effective. At least now, you can compensate for this by moving your aoe spells around the battlefield.
One other possibility that may help reduce server calculations is to extend the duration of abilities. ESO has so many short-lived buffs that it is ridiculous.
BXR_Lonestar wrote: »IMO, the elephant in the room here is that high APM players add to increasingly complicated damage calculations because of the pace of their attacks. IMO, they should be trying to resolve animation cancelling in order to slow down the pace of combat to prevent the server from getting overwhelmed by calculations. Light attack weaving is fine, but block/bash cancelling to further increase your dps rate shouldn't be a thing IMO. Addressing the cancelling issue would not only slow down the pace of combat, it would reduce the number of calculations per minute the server has to do which would also help performance.
They should be trying to address the issue in this fashion rather than doing so with cooldowns because enemies don't stay rooted long enough for aoe abilities to be effective. At least now, you can compensate for this by moving your aoe spells around the battlefield.
One other possibility that may help reduce server calculations is to extend the duration of abilities. ESO has so many short-lived buffs that it is ridiculous.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Calculating manhattan distance is addition and subtraction. Calculating Euclidian distance requires multiplication (and a square root, although you can work around that) too. This would affect literally every single action requiring a range check. The downside is that your actual ability range in Euclidian distance would depend on the direction to your target, which would be weird.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Most of the things you're concerned about either happen entirely on the client side (non-combat pets, visual stack indications), happen infrequently (most AoE abilities don't have things like healing based on their damage done), and/or don't really require significant additional calculation (the server already calculates how much damage you're doing, so a heal based on that is just one multiplication and an addition to your health pool).
MerguezMan wrote: »Other players non-combat pets' position is also displayed on your side, so that is information going through the server.
Most skills "don't have healing based on damage done", that "happens infrequently" ? I'm not focused on AoE.
- Templar's Sweeps
- Nightblade's Killer blade and Grim focus
- Dragonknight's Burning embers
And that is only calculated heal-back skills, you can add in skills with tricky descriptions like "on hit, if target is under 50% health, you deal [x]% additional damage and/or get ressource back".
Yes, that is "just" an addition and a multiplication on top of the rest (well, actually that's a bit more, but ok, let's consider its 2), the calculation itself is not that hard, but consider getting rid of these 2 operations on something like NB's spammable, that's 2 less operations per NB player per second.
At the end of the day, server-wide, that can be a lot less calculations.
Where is it stated that their best idea to improve performance is to add cooldowns? Where?
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »The first round of tests we are planning will focus on Area of Effect (AOE) abilities in Cyrodiil and will make it more difficult for AOE abilities to be the only abilities used, adjusting cooldown, cost and regen values of all AOEs (damage and healing).
Specific details on the tests we will be running in Cyrodiil are as follows:During the times that any of these tests are active, we will be awarding double Alliance Points for anyone active in Cyrodiil.
- Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
- Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
- Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
- Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.
After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »
The fact that they're testing their hypothesis about performance using cooldowns doesn't really indicate anything about how they plan to solve the problem if their hypothesis is confirmed.
If you actually read the rest of the announcement, it seems pretty clear that changes to AoE ability costs and/or resource regeneration (particularly for well-geared, well-coordinated, high-CP groups) are likely things that they plan to look at for their final solution.
I think the cooldowns are just a quick way for the performance team to experiment with reduced AoE without making the balance team do a ton of (potentially unnecessary) work first.
MerguezMan wrote: »Where is it stated that their best idea to improve performance is to add cooldowns? Where?
Here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests/p1ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »The first round of tests we are planning will focus on Area of Effect (AOE) abilities in Cyrodiil and will make it more difficult for AOE abilities to be the only abilities used, adjusting cooldown, cost and regen values of all AOEs (damage and healing).
Specific details on the tests we will be running in Cyrodiil are as follows:During the times that any of these tests are active, we will be awarding double Alliance Points for anyone active in Cyrodiil.
- Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
- Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
- Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
- Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.
After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.
You may notice the wording: "the FIRST round of tests [...] will FOCUS on AoE abilities in Cyrodiil", which can imply:
- there will be more tests of that kind
- not only AoE abilities can be affected
- not only Cyrodiil can be affected
And from the various topics around, I 'm quite sure I'm not the only one having lag out of Cyrodiil.
MerguezMan wrote: »Where is it stated that their best idea to improve performance is to add cooldowns? Where?
Here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests/p1ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »The first round of tests we are planning will focus on Area of Effect (AOE) abilities in Cyrodiil and will make it more difficult for AOE abilities to be the only abilities used, adjusting cooldown, cost and regen values of all AOEs (damage and healing).
Specific details on the tests we will be running in Cyrodiil are as follows:During the times that any of these tests are active, we will be awarding double Alliance Points for anyone active in Cyrodiil.
- Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
- Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
- Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
- Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.
After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.
You may notice the wording: "the FIRST round of tests [...] will FOCUS on AoE abilities in Cyrodiil", which can imply:
- there will be more tests of that kind
- not only AoE abilities can be affected
- not only Cyrodiil can be affected
And from the various topics around, I 'm quite sure I'm not the only one having lag out of Cyrodiil.
I ask again, WHERE does it says imposing AoE cooldowns is their idea to improve performance. I didnt ask what measures they are implementing to test performance impact
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. [...]
This is not what we intended, but [...] we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.
[...] we have reached the point where we cannot fix this issue around the edges: we need to address the core problem, which we will be starting with Update 27.
After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. [...] be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »
The fact that they're testing their hypothesis about performance using cooldowns doesn't really indicate anything about how they plan to solve the problem if their hypothesis is confirmed.
If you actually read the rest of the announcement, it seems pretty clear that changes to AoE ability costs and/or resource regeneration (particularly for well-geared, well-coordinated, high-CP groups) are likely things that they plan to look at for their final solution.
I think the cooldowns are just a quick way for the performance team to experiment with reduced AoE without making the balance team do a ton of (potentially unnecessary) work first.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »
The fact that they're testing their hypothesis about performance using cooldowns doesn't really indicate anything about how they plan to solve the problem if their hypothesis is confirmed.
If you actually read the rest of the announcement, it seems pretty clear that changes to AoE ability costs and/or resource regeneration (particularly for well-geared, well-coordinated, high-CP groups) are likely things that they plan to look at for their final solution.
I think the cooldowns are just a quick way for the performance team to experiment with reduced AoE without making the balance team do a ton of (potentially unnecessary) work first.
MerguezMan wrote: »MerguezMan wrote: »Where is it stated that their best idea to improve performance is to add cooldowns? Where?
Here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests/p1ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »The first round of tests we are planning will focus on Area of Effect (AOE) abilities in Cyrodiil and will make it more difficult for AOE abilities to be the only abilities used, adjusting cooldown, cost and regen values of all AOEs (damage and healing).
Specific details on the tests we will be running in Cyrodiil are as follows:During the times that any of these tests are active, we will be awarding double Alliance Points for anyone active in Cyrodiil.
- Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
- Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
- Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
- Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.
After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.
You may notice the wording: "the FIRST round of tests [...] will FOCUS on AoE abilities in Cyrodiil", which can imply:
- there will be more tests of that kind
- not only AoE abilities can be affected
- not only Cyrodiil can be affected
And from the various topics around, I 'm quite sure I'm not the only one having lag out of Cyrodiil.
I ask again, WHERE does it says imposing AoE cooldowns is their idea to improve performance. I didnt ask what measures they are implementing to test performance impact
Actually it says ZoS optimized performance on ability casting as much as they could, and that anyway players shouldn't be able to cast so many AoEs as now, as it was not their initial design, and as it results in lag when too many AoE effects happen in limited place.
Their intention is clearly to nerf AoEs in a near future and limit their casting.
Hard-coded cooldown is clearly an efficient way to do so, and it is exactly what they are testing. Even test 3 gives you a cumulative resource debuff for 5s that applies to all AoEs, so at some point you would have to wait to be able to cast anything.
Read the post again, it's quite clear:ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »However, one foundational issue remains. At some point, we crossed a threshold where most players in PvP were able to cast endless AOE abilities, without ever running out of resources. [...]
This is not what we intended, but [...] we allowed it. However, as this behavior grew more prevalent, we reached a point where casting so many continuous AOE abilities in such a small area started to overwhelm the server process for that area, leading to situations where the "lag meter" spikes and the server becomes unresponsive for a period of time.
[...] we have reached the point where we cannot fix this issue around the edges: we need to address the core problem, which we will be starting with Update 27.
After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. [...] be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.
So, from what M. Lambert says, AoEs are responsible for the lag in Cyrodiil, so AoE will soon have significant cost increase and/or hard-coded cooldown (What M. Lambert doesn't say, is how laggy the game can also be outside of Cyrodiil, and how his team would fix that).
And if this does still not answer your question... who's idea could it be if not ZoS' ?
I might be wrong, but it seems like that the cooldowns and ramping cost increases are not necessarily the end solution, but rather a method of forcing limitations on AoEs in Cyrodiil for the purpose of testing. ZoS can't exactly just tell people to "please, if you may, stop using AoEs for the next week in Cyrodiil"; no one would listen. So, instead they opted for implementing some measures to force different usages of AoEs.
The tests are less about potential solutions, but more so about testing a few things. (1) If AoEs are indeed the solution. If there is no performance difference between Week 1 (High restriction on AoEs) and Week 3 (Less restriction on AoEs), then ZoS knows that AoEs are not the problem. If they are a problem, and less AoEs helps performance, then the tests tell them (2) what level of decreasing AoEs ZoS needs to look at. If Week 3 is enough to fix performance issues, then ZoS starts looking at minor adaptations to skills to achieve that level of performance. Or, if Week 3 is not enough, and Week 1 was the best performance, then ZoS is probably going to look at reworking skills to decrease the number of abilities that are AoE.
The last thing that ZoS wants to do is to do a complete overhaul of skills with the intent of fixing performance, and then have it not work, and have gone through all that work for nothing. I'm not saying these tests are not going to be painful; they will be. But, they do seem to be an attempt by ZoS to test a hypothesis so that they have data to work off of before making any significant changes.
Chain casting limitations were set upon more than few skills in this game to this day. Yet none with hard coded cooldowns. Meanwhile their test states only that if the hypothesis they are TESTING with hard coded cooldowns proves to be true they will make AoEs chain casting not part of ESO combat anymore. To assume the testing implementations used in test1,2 and 4 will be used to enact this new vision of combat and not implementation of test #3 aka something used in past to affect chain casting on skills like dodge roll or different options that fit ESO combat like general increase to cost or redesign of skills that benefit of chain casting is very very warped and wrong view.
They can easily rebalance all AoE skills to offer long but weak benefits. Not claiming this would solve performance problem or even help it but its up there with all the other possibilities, one of which and frankly most unlikely, is adding cooldowns to AoE skills.
MerguezMan wrote: »Dear Zenimax,
The cooldowns implementation will for sure improve server performance. Having less players would also improve server performance, but I guess it also means you get less money, as players would not spend on crown crates if they don't play the game anymore...
Dear players,
The server performance is bad. So far, the best idea ZoS has is to add cooldowns. May we suggest something else ?