The maintenance is complete and the PTS is now back online. The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test!
The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 15:
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – April 16, 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EDT (22:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – April 16, 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EDT (22:00 UTC)
Explain to me please:
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Celestro✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »I think people are jumping to conclusions way to much.
This aoe change seems temporary and extreme to see if it effects performance.
Similar to turning off the ac in a car on a very hot day, to see if the engine still sounds labored. It’s not sustainable, but it helps pinpoint where the problem is.
This appears to be an experiment to see if the server issues are from aoes. If that is the issue, then they will go from there. If not, then there is nothing to worry about.
Let them see if this is the cause of lag, then debate what the solution should be.
I agree totally. I have been designing and testing software for 20+ years. Initial testing often includes very broad strokes before you can narrow down precise areas of trouble for efficient solutions. Instead of trying to poke holes in their methodology, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assist them as much as possible. After all, this is a testing phase towards a solution of PVP performance. At least they are trying.
Benefit of the doubt? LOL. At what point in time has this company proven they are capable of fixing or balancing anything.
Sometimes I wonder if the people who post here actually play the game.
Performance =/= balance. The performance issue is largely a matter of the company not wanting to utilize more servers. It's not really a fixing matter unless you can fix cheapness or what have you.
Balance is another subject altogether.3 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?
This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:
bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
italic= class spammable affected
striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected
Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected
Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected
Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected
Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.
Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.
Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.
In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?
They probably expect players to adjust for the sake of testing. As a Warden main I can think about ways to be viable even with the restrictions. Not sure I will invest time in getting the gear needed though.
But thats bring question of testing result again. Obviously people will try to slot single target skills but then what results test suppose to show when those who use aoe will gut themselves and stop use it - obviously perfomance increase but only for reason that people will stop even trying to use aoe, not coz treatment improved aoe.
Skills will still work, you just won't be able to spam them.
-1st week, global cool down, you'll see mostly single target attacks.
-2nd week, individual cool down, you'll see more AoE but perhaps using a rotation.
-3rd week, global cost increase, you'll see some moments of AoE burst, but not continuous.
-4th week, individual cost increase, you may see a rotation of AoE rather than a single skill spammed, but also some short bursts of single skill spam.
This is compared to the control weeks before and after without restrictions, and they see if the forced changes in play style had any impact.Edited by driosketch on July 31, 2020 12:22AMMain: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●0 -
West93✭✭✭✭✭I play cyrodiil everyday but during these tests there is no way I am going to participate. Not being able to use my class spammable? No thanks.1 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kittytravel wrote: »How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?
This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:
bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
italic= class spammable affected
striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected
Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected
Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected
Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected
Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.
Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.
Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.
In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539584/i-tested-many-abilities-on-the-pts-to-see-what-they-restricted-here-are-my-results/p1
Possibly read this and then edit your post as not all morphs of every ability react the same to the changes... You put 4 out of 15 for NB but in reality more and less is affected for example Strife isn't affected nor is Swallow Soul while Funnel Health is affected.
That post has (almost) everything tested so there isn't a reason you should utilize it to prove your point with morphs considered and not just base abilities as it's disingenuous. Everyone knows morphs exist and that not all morphs obey the base abilities rules.
His point was that almost all classes will be affected in such a way that they will almost be unplayable which will make the results of the test flawed. Whether explosive charge is affect and toppling charge not, won't change the fact that the core functionality of templars will be affected and make the class prety much unplayable.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think people are jumping to conclusions way to much.
This aoe change seems temporary and extreme to see if it effects performance.
Similar to turning off the ac in a car on a very hot day, to see if the engine still sounds labored. It’s not sustainable, but it helps pinpoint where the problem is.
This appears to be an experiment to see if the server issues are from aoes. If that is the issue, then they will go from there. If not, then there is nothing to worry about.
Let them see if this is the cause of lag, then debate what the solution should be.
I agree totally. I have been designing and testing software for 20+ years. Initial testing often includes very broad strokes before you can narrow down precise areas of trouble for efficient solutions. Instead of trying to poke holes in their methodology, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt and assist them as much as possible. After all, this is a testing phase towards a solution of PVP performance. At least they are trying.
How exactly do u intent on assisting them when you won't be able to even play some of the classes?
First of all it's not even exactly a broad stroke phase. It's actually more of a narrow down phase since they actually pinpoint the problem to AOE spam. And there is nothing wrong with trying to test that. The problem is instead of testing that, they are actually slapping a cooldown on half of the abilities in the game. That's not even a broad stroke. Thats like testing an entirely different game.0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.0 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.
Because even though players and ball groups may adjust it doesn't mean they will stop using AOE's entirely. So while it may not be regular conditions the abilities that negatively impact the server will still be noticed in the data, I am guessing.
For example, if the alliance war ability Purge puts some stress on the server, higher than some other abilities, during this test then one can only guess how high of an impact it would have during normal conditions.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.
Based on the four tests, that is not what they are testing for.
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Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.
Because even though players and ball groups may adjust it doesn't mean they will stop using AOE's entirely. So while it may not be regular conditions the abilities that negatively impact the server will still be noticed in the data, I am guessing.
For example, if the alliance war ability Purge puts some stress on the server, higher than some other abilities, during this test then one can only guess how high of an impact it would have during normal conditions.
But if they can measure how much strain a skill puts on the server during those tests, what is the purpose of those tests? Just look at the main offenders now and think about ways to adjust those - on a case by case basis. Instead of random across the board changes that aren't going to result in conclusive test results, no matter what.0 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.
Because even though players and ball groups may adjust it doesn't mean they will stop using AOE's entirely. So while it may not be regular conditions the abilities that negatively impact the server will still be noticed in the data, I am guessing.
For example, if the alliance war ability Purge puts some stress on the server, higher than some other abilities, during this test then one can only guess how high of an impact it would have during normal conditions.
But if they can measure how much strain a skill puts on the server during those tests, what is the purpose of those tests? Just look at the main offenders now and think about ways to adjust those - on a case by case basis. Instead of random across the board changes that aren't going to result in conclusive test results, no matter what.
The tests will confirm a hypothesis they have but it also might show them data that they are missing. They don't want to just make changes and then find out that there was something else causing lag, they've tried that and it doesn't work. So they are asking for our help with some tests and maybe together we can fix Cyrodiil and make it at least a little less unplayable.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.
Because even though players and ball groups may adjust it doesn't mean they will stop using AOE's entirely. So while it may not be regular conditions the abilities that negatively impact the server will still be noticed in the data, I am guessing.
For example, if the alliance war ability Purge puts some stress on the server, higher than some other abilities, during this test then one can only guess how high of an impact it would have during normal conditions.
But if they can measure how much strain a skill puts on the server during those tests, what is the purpose of those tests? Just look at the main offenders now and think about ways to adjust those - on a case by case basis. Instead of random across the board changes that aren't going to result in conclusive test results, no matter what.
My guess: Actually, I do not think that they can draw a line between the skill and how much strain that skill puts on the server. I think they can look at the process performance, see how many people were being handled by that process, and see what skills were being cast at the time, and because they know how that process should be working, hypothesize that certain skills were at fault. Until they can remove the AoE skills as a potential candidate, they are not sure that it isn't something else, and AoE is just the avenue that gets them there because it happens to be commonly used.
The mission for the players, should they choose to accept, is to try and lag out the server without spamming AoE. Of course, if you do this, and get caught, I will disavow any knowledge of your actions. Edited by Elsonso on August 2, 2020 12:51AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
How does a change, that heavily impacts how and which skills are used, allow ZOS to gather data on what causes the biggest impact on sever performance under regular conditions? It doesn't.
Because even though players and ball groups may adjust it doesn't mean they will stop using AOE's entirely. So while it may not be regular conditions the abilities that negatively impact the server will still be noticed in the data, I am guessing.
For example, if the alliance war ability Purge puts some stress on the server, higher than some other abilities, during this test then one can only guess how high of an impact it would have during normal conditions.
But if they can measure how much strain a skill puts on the server during those tests, what is the purpose of those tests? Just look at the main offenders now and think about ways to adjust those - on a case by case basis. Instead of random across the board changes that aren't going to result in conclusive test results, no matter what.
The tests will confirm a hypothesis they have but it also might show them data that they are missing. They don't want to just make changes and then find out that there was something else causing lag, they've tried that and it doesn't work. So they are asking for our help with some tests and maybe together we can fix Cyrodiil and make it at least a little less unplayable.
Slapping a cooldown on half of the abilities in the game doesn't confirm the hypothesis that AOE spam causes lag. The only thing it confirms is that people casting less abilities in general reduces lag. But you don't exactly need a test to know that.
Slapping a cooldown on all those abilities to check if purge spam causes lag is the equivalent of removing the tyres from ur car and say the car has an engine malfunction so that's why it won't move. It makes no sense.
The only good outcome of these tests is too see how screwed up the servers are. Cause if it still lags with people having half of their abilities on a 3 second cooldown then it will probably be a good time for ZOS to just get rid of Cyrodiil and open world pvp since it will be beyond saving.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Slapping a cooldown on half of the abilities in the game doesn't confirm the hypothesis that AOE spam causes lag. The only thing it confirms is that people casting less abilities in general reduces lag. But you don't exactly need a test to know that.
Slapping a cooldown on all those abilities to check if purge spam causes lag is the equivalent of removing the tyres from ur car and say the car has an engine malfunction so that's why it won't move. It makes no sense.
The only good outcome of these tests is too see how screwed up the servers are. Cause if it still lags with people having half of their abilities on a 3 second cooldown then it will probably be a good time for ZOS to just get rid of Cyrodiil and open world pvp since it will be beyond saving.
I will agree that the four tests are probably not the right tests to be doing, but I also do not know what other tests they have done such that they have arrived at this point.
This is why I think the challenge for the players is to lag out the server during the test, not stay away and hide until it is over. 1 -
Neloth✭✭✭✭I´m asking how they expect reliable test results when classes get partly or almost entirely disabled to the point where ppl won´t be able to play.
First, only magicka classes are disabled, which (arguably) already form a minority in PvP. Some people will leave, while some new will come for double AP. Some (like me) will respec several characters into stam for the event. I can bet 100k gold on PC NA with you that during peak hours CP Cyrodiil will be pop-locked, which is more than sufficient to get acceptable testing results population-wise. Deal?ZOS doesn´t have a history of making needed changes in a timely fashion
They don't have a history of making tests on live servers either, however we have this discussion today. There's a first time for everything.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I´m asking how they expect reliable test results when classes get partly or almost entirely disabled to the point where ppl won´t be able to play.
First, only magicka classes are disabled, which (arguably) already form a minority in PvP. Some people will leave, while some new will come for double AP. Some (like me) will respec several characters into stam for the event. I can bet 100k gold on PC NA with you that during peak hours CP Cyrodiil will be pop-locked, which is more than sufficient to get acceptable testing results population-wise. Deal?ZOS doesn´t have a history of making needed changes in a timely fashion
They don't have a history of making tests on live servers either, however we have this discussion today. There's a first time for everything.
They do have a history of doing organized testing on the Live server. This is not the first time they have done it in Cyrodiil. This is the first time they have tossed a grenade into the room before entering, though.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OtarTheMad wrote: »I didn't read everyone's response but I am going to assume that these tests will give ZOS data that tells them what AOE abilities are used the most and which ones affect the server the most.
So, I don't think, when all this is over, that every AOE will be affected. The only ones affected will be the ones that have the biggest impact on server performance. This might make it hard for the changes not to affect PVE but we simply don't know what ZOS has in mind. They could add those abilities to Battle Spirit with a set of rules attached who knows.
This makes the most sense to me regardless of which test they like as a solution because not every AOE has a big impact on the server and changing just those that do will have a minimal impact on PVE/the combat system we love but a huge effect on PVP servers.
I think they already have this data, as he eludes to ballgroups in particular being an issue.
I imagine the tests show how much performance is improved via certain controls and reductions.
The first test will show how cyro runs with 66% less aoe casts and in particular those that are cast most.
Later tests show how effective certain controls reduce aoe. I am hoping it will result in a lot of skill reworks rather than cooldowns or cost increases.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I´m asking how they expect reliable test results when classes get partly or almost entirely disabled to the point where ppl won´t be able to play.
First, only magicka classes are disabled, which (arguably) already form a minority in PvP. Some people will leave, while some new will come for double AP. Some (like me) will respec several characters into stam for the event. I can bet 100k gold on PC NA with you that during peak hours CP Cyrodiil will be pop-locked, which is more than sufficient to get acceptable testing results population-wise. Deal?ZOS doesn´t have a history of making needed changes in a timely fashion
They don't have a history of making tests on live servers either, however we have this discussion today. There's a first time for everything.
Yeah but this is exactly the point tho. You said you will respec to stam as probably a lot of people will do cause the tests will render some classes unplayable. Well thats exactly why u will get flawed results.1 -
Melivar✭✭✭This is likely not going to be great fun in the various stages for many if not most classes or play styles but if we all just change how we are going to play to best suit our personal needs then I don't think they are going to get accurate data.
If there are far less people that normal or no AOE's used and the servers run perfectly then guess what the AOE's are for sure going to get changed and more than likely to the effect everyone is afraid of.
If we all play like we would normally and deal with the brief pain periods of each test condition and the servers don't change much under any circumstance then it will show that it's not the AOE's and more likely a hardware or simple numbers game then they can look in that route.
Someone joked about trying to crash the servers more or less but that is actually the point to a degree. Get as many people in there testing the conditions under the scenarios and then move forward. So if we all do our part then there is at least a slight chance that things will get fixed in a manner that benefits the majority and without sweeping changes that won't help in the long run.1 -
Neloth✭✭✭✭no AOE's used and the servers run perfectly then guess what the AOE's are for sure going to get changed and more than likely to the effect everyone is afraid of.
If people stop using AoEs, and the servers will start running flawlessly when pop-locked (80-200ms ping max for everyone during prime time), reworking AoEs is imho the best solution.
Yes, I also don't like cooldowns, and in my opinion the best solution will be to move AoE calculations back to the client side, however, if I have to choose between:
- playing with current lag
- playing without AoEs
I will choose the latter without hesitation, sorry, magplars/magdens/etc.
Edited by Neloth on August 5, 2020 8:01AM0 -
Neloth✭✭✭✭I´m asking how they expect reliable test results when classes get partly or almost entirely disabled to the point where ppl won´t be able to play.
First, only magicka classes are disabled, which (arguably) already form a minority in PvP. Some people will leave, while some new will come for double AP. Some (like me) will respec several characters into stam for the event. I can bet 100k gold on PC NA with you that during peak hours CP Cyrodiil will be pop-locked, which is more than sufficient to get acceptable testing results population-wise. Deal?ZOS doesn´t have a history of making needed changes in a timely fashion
They don't have a history of making tests on live servers either, however we have this discussion today. There's a first time for everything.
Yeah but this is exactly the point tho. You said you will respec to stam as probably a lot of people will do cause the tests will render some classes unplayable. Well thats exactly why u will get flawed results.
And what? We are testing here not how classes will operate with AoE changes (its clear many will need a complete rework), we are testing if Cyro will have day 1 performance during prime time when AoEs are partially disabled. RN its not clear if it will, that's why they make those tests.
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