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Explain to me please:

Derra
Derra
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How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?

This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:

bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
italic= class spammable affected
striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected


Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected

Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected

Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected

Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.


Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.

Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.

In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?
Edited by Derra on July 28, 2020 8:26AM
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.

Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • artal
    artal
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    Well this test will be positive result for them. It will show that less skills you cast less lagg there is.
    Not to mention high number of people that wont bother to log into cyrodiil.

    Btw not sure how exactly this will work but dk might also get screwed with this. Lets say you cast volatile armor, and cant hit noxious or leap after that. or mag dk, use volatile, and cant cast root, breath, inhale, ult...

    dw setups to, you go to execute guy, hit him with one spin2win and what than, cant execute again for 3 sec?

    nb is the only class that wont have any issues, except bomblade.

    Luckily its summertime so i can go to the beach some more
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    Yeh, they haven't thought this through at all.

    You sound surprised by that OP.

    Not suprised - just curious behind the though process on this because i can´t come up with a logical explanation myself and i don´t want to accuse them of not thinking about this at all.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • drakthir
    drakthir
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    They are probably aware of what abilities are marked as aoe, you guys are just assuming they have no idea.
    Did any of you actually read the whole post?

    'After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.'

    The 3 seconds is not something thats set in stone. Yes changes to abilities will happen, they always happen and tbh im still waiting for that fabled class identity patch...


  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    Everyone sees the problem in Cyrodill but such changes to AOE’s would kill the flow of combat in ESO. If we are binging honest it’s the combat makes most people stay. Or at least me personally. Sure, I love ESO and everything in it but kill combat and you kill the reason I stay.

    Dungeon DLC’s take a day to do and that’s being very generous. Fourth quarter DLC’s can be done in 2-3 days of generally playing the game and chapter’s a week at most. 10 days of content per year. Crafting, Housing and outfits not make the other 355 days of the year. Combat is what makes the game. ZOS needs to be very very careful here.

    Another thought comes to mind did they not just get done with standards for skills and now doing the same for item sets. By changing all the skills will this not just break the standards they just setup. Looks like a lot of wasted time and effort.
  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
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    Derra wrote: »
    How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?

    This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:

    bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
    italic= class spammable affected
    striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected


    Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
    Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected

    Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected

    Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected

    Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
    Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.


    Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.

    Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.

    In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?

    They probably expect players to adjust for the sake of testing. As a Warden main I can think about ways to be viable even with the restrictions. Not sure I will invest time in getting the gear needed though.
  • Azurya
    Azurya
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    We have thess issues around Dragonclaw, at times where nobody is around.
    Okay maybe that when many players are on one spot, Aleswel, Chalman, Ash, alessia to name a few that the correlation is high, but as said it happens also on low pop version of Cyrodil, it even happens when you are doing Mealstrom Arena on your own.
    So imho the solution has nothing to do with global Cooldowns on AoE, that cannot be the solution.
    And for that wrecking all and everything, is most certainly not the solution.

    So @ZOS, initiate the brain, and start searching like Inspector Vale would do.
    Fear not, for I am watchful. You have been chosen.
    Azura, the Daedric Prince of Moonshadow, Mother of the Rose, and Queen of the Night Sky


    Hail to Sithis, blood's drop on blade's edge.
    Before you, nothing. Behind you, the Void.
    Catalyst, agitator, many-fanged maw.
    Whisper your need to the Scales.
    — Inscription found on an Argonian blade
  • drakthir
    drakthir
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    Derra wrote: »
    drakthir wrote: »
    They are probably aware of what abilities are marked as aoe, you guys are just assuming they have no idea.
    Did any of you actually read the whole post?

    'After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.'

    The 3 seconds is not something thats set in stone. Yes changes to abilities will happen, they always happen and tbh im still waiting for that fabled class identity patch...


    It´s like you didn´t read my post. I´ve bolded the important part.

    I´m asking how they expect reliable test results when classes get partly or almost entirely disabled to the point where ppl won´t be able to play.
    As in: The implication on gameplay are so enormous that i question the accuracy or relevance of the tests results.

    If people can´t use 70% their abilities normally ofc the game will run better. With key abilities being disabled most people won´t even show up - which will also make the game run better.


    Not even going into the argument adressing the rest of the unbolded dev statement - that the needed adjustments to skills to compensate classes would be MASSIVE and ZOS doesn´t have a history of making needed changes in a timely fashion.
    If sth remotely resembling any of the suggested mechanics would go live and the needed balance changes would come in the usual 3 6 or 9 months ZOS timeframe delay the games open pvp would be dead by the time things get adjusted.


    You are just assuming they don't know about what abilities are listed as aoe and you think they are going to release it without making any changes prior. They might, who knows, you don't that's for sure.
  • likecats
    likecats
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?

    This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:

    bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
    italic= class spammable affected
    striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected


    Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
    Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected

    Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected

    Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected

    Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
    Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.


    Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.

    Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.

    In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?

    They probably expect players to adjust for the sake of testing. As a Warden main I can think about ways to be viable even with the restrictions. Not sure I will invest time in getting the gear needed though.

    But thats bring question of testing result again. Obviously people will try to slot single target skills but then what results test suppose to show when those who use aoe will gut themselves and stop use it - obviously perfomance increase but only for reason that people will stop even trying to use aoe, not coz treatment improved aoe.

    No... it will give them insight of if the performance will improve if they audit all classes and give them more single target abilities instead. They are not trying to improve AOE's, they are trying to confirm their hypothesis if AOE is the cause of massive lag, and which of the 4 testing strategies works best.
  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?

    This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:

    bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
    italic= class spammable affected
    striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected


    Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
    Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected

    Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected

    Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected

    Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
    Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.


    Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.

    Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.

    In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?

    They probably expect players to adjust for the sake of testing. As a Warden main I can think about ways to be viable even with the restrictions. Not sure I will invest time in getting the gear needed though.

    But thats bring question of testing result again. Obviously people will try to slot single target skills but then what results test suppose to show when those who use aoe will gut themselves and stop use it - obviously perfomance increase but only for reason that people will stop even trying to use aoe, not coz treatment improved aoe.

    It limits the use of AOE's use. Doesn't matter if you slot all AOE skills and cast one every 3 , or spam single target skills only. Result is less AOE skills. This will give a bench mark of best case scenario in terms of service performance(due to the most harsh limitation). If for example they will see only 5% improvement, they can scrap the AOE thesis altogether. If the results will be crazy good, they will probably check with the additional tests ways to modify the restriction to make it not as harsh.

    However, I'm not sure how they will handle AOE proc sets for this test. AOE proc sets(both healing and damage) are the best sets in the game in a world with no AOE skills, for any kind of group play. If all players will just go with AOE proc sets, it could mess the data(I assume).
  • drakthir
    drakthir
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    Derra wrote: »
    drakthir wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    drakthir wrote: »
    They are probably aware of what abilities are marked as aoe, you guys are just assuming they have no idea.
    Did any of you actually read the whole post?

    'After we complete the above tests, we may try other combinations of cooldown, cost, and regen values on AOE abilities. However, we need to run these tests first and then assess the data. We will then let everyone know what we found and how we will move forward. We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.'

    The 3 seconds is not something thats set in stone. Yes changes to abilities will happen, they always happen and tbh im still waiting for that fabled class identity patch...


    It´s like you didn´t read my post. I´ve bolded the important part.

    I´m asking how they expect reliable test results when classes get partly or almost entirely disabled to the point where ppl won´t be able to play.
    As in: The implication on gameplay are so enormous that i question the accuracy or relevance of the tests results.

    If people can´t use 70% their abilities normally ofc the game will run better. With key abilities being disabled most people won´t even show up - which will also make the game run better.


    Not even going into the argument adressing the rest of the unbolded dev statement - that the needed adjustments to skills to compensate classes would be MASSIVE and ZOS doesn´t have a history of making needed changes in a timely fashion.
    If sth remotely resembling any of the suggested mechanics would go live and the needed balance changes would come in the usual 3 6 or 9 months ZOS timeframe delay the games open pvp would be dead by the time things get adjusted.


    You are just assuming they don't know about what abilities are listed as aoe and you think they are going to release it without making any changes prior. They might, who knows, you don't that's for sure.

    Except they said themselves they will not make those adjustments prior to the tests in the very paragraph you quoted yourself.

    I´ll highlight it again for you:

    "if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary."

    Pretty easy to understand - no? If hypothesis is confirmed THEN changes will be made.

    Let me know if you need any more help :)


    Meanwhile i´ll continue questioning if doing a test in a flawed environment they know needs adjustment has any value to confirm a hypothesis in the first place.

    'The code for these changes will be going into today’s PTS patch, and we will be running some basic tests throughout the day on Tuesday in Cyrodiil to ensure we’re able to make the above changes without requiring any maintenance or downtime.'

    This right here, you know this means there may very well be changes before the tests right.
    The problem i have is with your 'flawed' environment, you assumed it would be done as is because you didn't fully read or comprehend what was going on.
    There will be a lot of people in cyro during the test phases, much more than you would ever get on PTS so its best done on live.
    Edited by drakthir on July 28, 2020 10:41PM
  • catnamedwill
    catnamedwill
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    The only really playable class in the test weeks will be stamblade. Good luck getting any unbiased info when only the single target class plays.
  • JayKwellen
    JayKwellen
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    @catnamedwill will they though?

    As far as I know even cloak has an aoe component too in that it does an area check when used, does it not? If this test doesn't just factor in active AoE abilities but also includes all abilities which have any area effects at all, that's huge. Even single target abilities like rapid regen and healing ward still have an area component in that the abiliy scans everyone in the area before the server decides where the ability should go. Cloak itself checks the surrounding area for all players sending incoming damage so it knows what projectiles need to be mitigated. These aren't AoEs in the traditional sense everyone thinks of, but they're still abilities that interact with the players in the area around them.

    If in fact these changes include every ability which has any area effect, nightblades won't be safe either. Magblades won't be able to reliably use cloak or heal, so you might as well just delete them from the game. Stamblades, while they would fare better, would still be very negatively effected by this too if they use cloak.
    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    Aldmeri Dominion
    Magblade main -- Yes, I do hate myself that much actually, thanks.
  • M_Volsung
    M_Volsung
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    Hold up... DK has class skills?
    In The Deep Halls, Far From Man
    Forsaken Red Mountain, Twisted Kin
    Hail The Mind, Hail The Stone
    Dwarven Pride, Stronger Than Bone
  • catnamedwill
    catnamedwill
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    @catnamedwill will they though?

    As far as I know even cloak has an aoe component too in that it does an area check when used, does it not? If this test doesn't just factor in active AoE abilities but also includes all abilities which have any area effects at all, that's huge. Even single target abilities like rapid regen and healing ward still have an area component in that the abiliy scans everyone in the area before the server decides where the ability should go. Cloak itself checks the surrounding area for all players sending incoming damage so it knows what projectiles need to be mitigated. These aren't AoEs in the traditional sense everyone thinks of, but they're still abilities that interact with the players in the area around them.

    If in fact these changes include every ability which has any area effect, nightblades won't be safe either. Magblades won't be able to reliably use cloak or heal, so you might as well just delete them from the game. Stamblades, while they would fare better, would still be very negatively effected by this too if they use cloak.

    @JayKwellen Cloak has no AoE compotent and it does no Area check. It is actually the opposite, AoE abilities check for invisible units when active. The list is out already. Not a single stamblade ability has any AoE check. It is ironically also the reason they are the weakest class in group PvP.

    Check here for list.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QSEAlqv5mNVK9AWPhHUO_w-s9Pixa0qMRO4lWTjVpbE/edit#gid=0
  • JayKwellen
    JayKwellen
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    @catnamedwill You are correct, I saw the definitive list after I made that post. I was concerned that cloaks avoidance methods might somehow qualify under the AoE rules, but I'm glad to hear I was wrong.

    Unfortunately healing ward and rapid regen were on that list, so this magblade would still be screwed by any of these changes. I've been curious about rolling a stamblade, if this happens it might be the time. Me and everyone else I suppose lol
    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    Aldmeri Dominion
    Magblade main -- Yes, I do hate myself that much actually, thanks.
  • Thannazzar
    Thannazzar
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    To draw an analogy with the new star wars movies and quote Mark Hamill in reference to the movie business:

    'what you have to understand is it doesn't need to be any good, it just needs to make money!'

    As a business changing the way the game works is less impact on profit than boosting server resources. In the light of this ZOS are attempting to solve the server lag issues by radically changing established playstyles.

    If they can pull it off and create engaging class mechanics while reducing the server lag as a result then all credit to them. If it also solves the abilities failing to fire and desyncs that are plaguing the game so much the better.

    However given the recent design and aesthetic choices of the vampire revamp frankly my hopes aren't high.
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Derra wrote: »
    How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?

    A fair point. Most people are programmed to do skills in a rhythm and the cooldown will mess that up. A lot of people probably won't be able to adjust over the span of the test. They would probably get the same results if they just turned off AoE for the duration of the test.

    I actually don't think they need to do the cool down tests. In the end, I doubt that they will do that. If they are going to go to all the work to balance all the classes and skills to make sure there are viable builds, then they might as well back the train up and do it the right way, from the start. That would not be slapping a long cool down on things and then trying to fix the game. That would be removing some AoE skills, eliminating any AoE that is not a direct cast skill (no passives, procs, pets, etc), reducing resource recovery across the board, and making the AoE cost more. People need to run out of Stamina and Magicka. All the time. Every significant combat.

    I don't like to run out of resources. It makes me feel like an old man in combat, huffing and puffing, but then again, ESO was designed so that we would run out of resources, and that would be how the game limits use of skills. They should just go back to that, with an emphasis on making AoE something has much less bang for the resource expended.
    @Elsonso on PC North America
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/ElsonsoJannus

    I collect free, unopened, virgin Crown Crates! 505, as of August 1, 2020!

    The Elder Scrolls Online: Waiting on previous request.
  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    All I know is if this test goes past testing pvp is dead this won’t stop zergs. It will stop all but small scale 1vx other than NB.
    It will help performance because people will stop playing
    DC PC NA
    Magdk - main
    Stamcro - alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

  • Kittytravel
    Kittytravel
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    Derra wrote: »
    How do you Guys at ZOS expect reliable test results from the AOE changes when the majority of class skills will be affected by the current ruleset?

    This is only from magica perspective not counting ultimates:

    bolded = burst defense mechanic affected
    italic= class spammable affected
    striked = 50% or more of offensive toolkit affected


    Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
    Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected

    Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected

    Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected

    Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
    Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.


    Imo any class that is bolded will be flatout unplayable as their main defense skill(s) gets partly disabled - which can´t be substituted for in any way as EVERY restoration staff skill will also match aoe criteria.

    Then you´re left with DK and NB - of which one still is impaired offensively quite a bit depending on skill choices.

    In the end you´re left with one class being remotely playable. How to you expect a test with reliable results when 5 out of 6 magica classes flatout won´t work and most likely people will not play as a result?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539584/i-tested-many-abilities-on-the-pts-to-see-what-they-restricted-here-are-my-results/p1
    Possibly read this and then edit your post as not all morphs of every ability react the same to the changes... You put 4 out of 15 for NB but in reality more and less is affected for example Strife isn't affected nor is Swallow Soul while Funnel Health is affected.

    That post has (almost) everything tested so there isn't a reason you should utilize it to prove your point with morphs considered and not just base abilities as it's disingenuous. Everyone knows morphs exist and that not all morphs obey the base abilities rules.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    I think people are jumping to conclusions way to much.

    This aoe change seems temporary and extreme to see if it effects performance.

    Similar to turning off the ac in a car on a very hot day, to see if the engine still sounds labored. It’s not sustainable, but it helps pinpoint where the problem is.

    This appears to be an experiment to see if the server issues are from aoes. If that is the issue, then they will go from there. If not, then there is nothing to worry about.

    Let them see if this is the cause of lag, then debate what the solution should be.
    Edited by BlueRaven on July 30, 2020 8:12PM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Derra wrote: »
    Necromancer: 13 out of 15 class skills affected
    Templar: 11 out of 15 class skills affected

    Sorcerer: 10 out of 15 class skills affected

    Dragonknight: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Warden: 8 out of 15 class skills affected
    Nightblade: 4 out of 15 class skills affected

    Restoration staff: 5 out of 5 skills affected.
    Destruction staff: 2 ouf of 5 skills affected.

    Nightblades are were designed with "assassin" archetype in mind. So it makes perfect sense for them to have a lot of single target abilities.

    But I agree... imagine this test and 90% of population in Cyro are NBs... where is everybody ? :D:joy:
  • Colinr1968
    Colinr1968
    ✭✭
    For putting home truths have had a warning lol,proves to show it hurts
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