brianzim87 wrote: »brianzim87 wrote: »Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.
Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.
In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.
Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.
If it was so easy you'd see more and there'd be rivalries. I don't see it. I see like 1 or 2 MAX per faction and zergs just feeding the monster over and over again screaming WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. That and people saying ball groups are easy and no skill. smh.
It requires a bit of organisation (about as much as could be done fairly easily with BOT software), but as I said nothing like in many other MMORPGs
In other MMORPGs large groups would move with precision, central tanks and DPS, flanking channelled AOE, healers carefully at the back-central, your superior organisation and positioning won the battle (it actually mattered if your formation was flanked, for example). Think ESO small scale only with raid size grouping - and yes there were massive rivialries.
Ball-groups in ESO don't really work like that there's very little positioning other than stacking and the use of terrain is also rudimentary (a bit of LOSing and turn & burn) because the whole premise is just stacking your DPS, snares and possibly stuns on a spot whilst overhealing and cleansing like mad and if you lag, so much the better as lag kills half your victims for you.
Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.
Because why?
You refuse to add group caps.
You refuse to add target caps for healing.
You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.
So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.
LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.
Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.
Because why?
You refuse to add group caps.
You refuse to add target caps for healing.
You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.
So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.
LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.
Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.
Because why?
You refuse to add group caps.
You refuse to add target caps for healing.
You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.
So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.
LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.
Grandchamp1989 wrote: »If we turn this game to a turn base game it could go on your cellphone and we could play ESO everwhere!
"You got phones right?"
brianzim87 wrote: »brianzim87 wrote: »Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.
You’re not making any sense. Have you actually stepped foot in cyrodiil lately?
I'm making plenty of sense. People who dont like ball groups get killed by ball groups with no skill. Its funny how people who coordinate and play fluidly have "no skill" but the leet casuals and zergs getting wipes are FULL of skill. On that note, yes cyro lags. Thats a game limitation, not because of ball groups. They need more/better server side resources. Not less players and more restriction.
In other MMORPGs large groups would move with precision, central tanks and DPS, flanking channelled AOE, healers carefully at the back-central, your superior organisation and positioning won the battle (it actually mattered if your formation was flanked, for example).
Dagoth_Rac wrote: »I think the main issue with ball groups is inside captured keeps. The concept of, "Don't feed the ball groups," is fine up to a point. But you cannot leave 30 enemy players running in circles inside your home keep and go do other things. It takes very little effort for them to flip the keep from the inside and it starts all over again. Ball groups at resources? Sure. Ball groups in middle of contested keep fights? Sure. Ball groups at choke points like gates and bridges? Sure. But once a faction takes a keep, any enemy players still inside need to be severely debuffed or insta-killed after a certain amount of time or something.
brianzim87 wrote: »brianzim87 wrote: »Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.
You’re not making any sense. Have you actually stepped foot in cyrodiil lately?
I'm making plenty of sense. People who dont like ball groups get killed by ball groups with no skill. Its funny how people who coordinate and play fluidly have "no skill" but the leet casuals and zergs getting wipes are FULL of skill. On that note, yes cyro lags. Thats a game limitation, not because of ball groups. They need more/better server side resources. Not less players and more restriction.
can we please have a firm commitment from @ZOS_RichLambert that no changes relating to resolving performance issues in PvP will be applied to PvE?
volkeswagon wrote: »infinite sustain? How can I do that. I always run out of stamina
VaranisArano wrote: »Er, the intention is to prevent ball groups from running around with "infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage." They can't address it through sets (they've tried), skills (they've tried), AOE target caps (tried that too), group busters like siege weapons and new weapon sets (turns out ball groups use those effectively too, who'da thunk it!), and now they've settled for fundamentally reworking AOEs to prevent spam through hard coding limits.
You and people like you have been whining for nerfs to ball groups and you finally got one...you just don't like what you got.
VaranisArano wrote: »SmokeHappiness wrote: »@VaranisArano
They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.
Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.
Kalik_Gold wrote: »Agree with everything except taking away CP in PvP....
such a shame this is desired by many. CP is the only endgame and then they strip it from battlegrounds weakening a a character that you have balanced which works in Overland, Imperial City, Cyrodiil and dugeons (basically everywhere) except BG's.
But hey... people will say it makes the 810 superb and godly compared to a 161.... eventually that 161 will be 810 and want to use the CP system also.
If they remove it from PvP (Cyro/Imp City to match BGs) remove it from PvE as well and just have Level 50 flat be the end of leveling.
VaranisArano wrote: »SmokeHappiness wrote: »@VaranisArano
They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.
Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.
I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.
The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).
VaranisArano wrote: »SmokeHappiness wrote: »@VaranisArano
They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.
Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.
I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.
The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).
brianzim87 wrote: »brianzim87 wrote: »Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.
Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.
In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.
Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.
If it was so easy you'd see more and there'd be rivalries. I don't see it. I see like 1 or 2 MAX per faction and zergs just feeding the monster over and over again screaming WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. That and people saying ball groups are easy and no skill. smh.
NocturnalSonata wrote: »You dont need to see a ball group to feel the lag increase 10X...
I dont know what the solution is, but reworking skills, timers and the such will not eliminate ball grps.They are a coordinated grp, so, for example, even if you made grouping impossible, they would just run together anyway... nothing changes. The same would apply for almost every change, as the group would just adapt.
what needs to change is the felt effect they have. their mere presence ruins it for everyone.
NocturnalSonata wrote: »You dont need to see a ball group to feel the lag increase 10X...
I dont know what the solution is, but reworking skills, timers and the such will not eliminate ball grps.They are a coordinated grp, so, for example, even if you made grouping impossible, they would just run together anyway... nothing changes. The same would apply for almost every change, as the group would just adapt.
what needs to change is the felt effect they have. their mere presence ruins it for everyone.
spartaxoxo wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »SmokeHappiness wrote: »@VaranisArano
They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.
Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.
I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.
The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).
What are these changes you guys are talking about?