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For God’s Sake - STOP Changing This Game For Ball Groups in Cyrodiil

  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    I think the main issue with ball groups is inside captured keeps. The concept of, "Don't feed the ball groups," is fine up to a point. But you cannot leave 30 enemy players running in circles inside your home keep and go do other things. It takes very little effort for them to flip the keep from the inside and it starts all over again. Ball groups at resources? Sure. Ball groups in middle of contested keep fights? Sure. Ball groups at choke points like gates and bridges? Sure. But once a faction takes a keep, any enemy players still inside need to be severely debuffed or insta-killed after a certain amount of time or something.
  • Kalik_Gold
    Kalik_Gold
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    Agree with everything except taking away CP in PvP....

    such a shame this is desired by many. CP is the only endgame and then they strip it from battlegrounds weakening a a character that you have balanced which works in Overland, Imperial City, Cyrodiil and dugeons (basically everywhere) except BG's.

    But hey... people will say it makes the 810 superb and godly compared to a 161.... eventually that 161 will be 810 and want to use the CP system also.

    If they remove it from PvP (Cyro/Imp City to match BGs) remove it from PvE as well and just have Level 50 flat be the end of leveling.
    Main: (PvP & PvE)
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP:
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: (Specialty)
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade (Bomber)
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight (Tank)
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight (Damage)
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar (Healer)
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden (One-Bar)
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade (Thief)

    Leveling...
    Two-Big-Horns an Argonian Arcanist
    Styx of Akatosh a Goblin* Arcanist
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    ======
    Passives of another race used. (RP)
    *Breton
    **Imperial




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
    Returning player - 2017-2022, back in 25'
  • brianzim87
    brianzim87
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    Gorreck wrote: »
    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Gorreck wrote: »
    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

    Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

    In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

    Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

    If it was so easy you'd see more and there'd be rivalries. I don't see it. I see like 1 or 2 MAX per faction and zergs just feeding the monster over and over again screaming WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. That and people saying ball groups are easy and no skill. smh.



    It requires a bit of organisation (about as much as could be done fairly easily with BOT software), but as I said nothing like in many other MMORPGs

    In other MMORPGs large groups would move with precision, central tanks and DPS, flanking channelled AOE, healers carefully at the back-central, your superior organisation and positioning won the battle (it actually mattered if your formation was flanked, for example). Think ESO small scale only with raid size grouping - and yes there were massive rivialries.

    Ball-groups in ESO don't really work like that there's very little positioning other than stacking and the use of terrain is also rudimentary (a bit of LOSing and turn & burn) because the whole premise is just stacking your DPS, snares and possibly stuns on a spot whilst overhealing and cleansing like mad and if you lag, so much the better as lag kills half your victims for you.

    Then I think thats just eso pvp in a nut shell regardless of ball group or no ball group. Its not a difficult execution with only 8-10 abilites. All you can really do to change your scenario is awareness/los. "bots can coordinate" of course they can. Theres no room for human error. Its scripted use of abilities. I think a bot ball group would eliminate like 90% of the players in cyro lol. ESO is a lower skill mmo IMO. Doesn't mean ball groups are a problem. Its players doing the best they can within the toolkits and limitations the game provides. Everyone here demonizing players for trying to be the best they can be is a bit ridiculous.
  • nk125x
    nk125x
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    I just shake my head every time ZO$ suggest fundamental changes, like the last one changing LA/HA around. I guess they were hopping we would all HA to slow things down. Instead everybody realized LA weaving would give you infinite resources so you could change all your glyphs to Weapon or spell damage - Now this change, just means you will rotate your aoe's in a ball group between damage/heal and purge, abuse the new proc meta and cause so much more lag!!!!
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    I wouldnt mind if combat was slower. I dont like hack'n'slash games.
    CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • ZarkingFrued
    ZarkingFrued
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

    Because why?

    You refuse to add group caps.
    You refuse to add target caps for healing.
    You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.

    So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.

    LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.

    This is exactly the issue. Nerf group healing targets and group size and you will see a significant change in performance. I will not be playing this game if there are cooldowns
  • Nyladreas
    Nyladreas
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

    Because why?

    You refuse to add group caps.
    You refuse to add target caps for healing.
    You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.

    So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.

    LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.

    They removed animation canceling? Lol what... Is this person speaking the truth?
  • TheMightyRevan
    TheMightyRevan
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

    Because why?

    You refuse to add group caps.
    You refuse to add target caps for healing.
    You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.

    So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.

    LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.

    i love how ppl, that never played in an organised raid, say that its super easy, braindead and takes no skill. you just have no idea how the game works
  • mneimneh_ESO
    mneimneh_ESO
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    If we turn this game to a turn base game it could go on your cellphone and we could play ESO everwhere!

    "You got phones right?"

    I play ESO on 4G on my Android, it works fine. Please don't change it for us little people.
    I like playing ESO.

    Member since September 7th, 2013.

    PS4 CP1015
    Redguard Necromancer (PVE Stamcro)
    Argonian Templar (PVE Heals)
    Dark Elf Nightblade (PVE Magblade)
    Breton Sorcerer (PVE Petsorc)
    Nord Dragonknight (PVE Tank)
    Dark Elf Dragonknight (PVE MagDK)
    Argonian Templar (PVP Heals)
    Nord Warden (PVP Magden)
    Redguard Nightblade (PVP Stamblade)


    Stadia/PC CP340
    Argonian Templar (PVE Heals)
    Imperial Dragonknight (PVE Tank)
    Breton Nightblade (PVE Magblade)
    Orc Templar (PVE Stamplar)
  • Dusk_Coven
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    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Skoomah wrote: »
    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

    You’re not making any sense. Have you actually stepped foot in cyrodiil lately?

    I'm making plenty of sense. People who dont like ball groups get killed by ball groups with no skill. Its funny how people who coordinate and play fluidly have "no skill" but the leet casuals and zergs getting wipes are FULL of skill. On that note, yes cyro lags. Thats a game limitation, not because of ball groups. They need more/better server side resources. Not less players and more restriction.

    People just like to pat themselves on the back and say they are the ones with skill.
    But really, ball groups are playing smart, not hard. How is that inferior? And clearly, it works. Isn't that the measure of success in PvP? Whatever works, no matter how they do it?
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    Gorreck wrote: »
    In other MMORPGs large groups would move with precision, central tanks and DPS, flanking channelled AOE, healers carefully at the back-central, your superior organisation and positioning won the battle (it actually mattered if your formation was flanked, for example).

    But the game design doesn't support this. Just look at how things are in PvE even -- tanks and healers are so deprecated a lot of people run dungeons as full do-it-all solo-capable vMA-capable dps.

    And people can put together builds that are both tanky and do damage and heal themselves. That's part of the problem too -- the game design allows builds so extreme it's like cheating. But you can't "fix" that without taking away what's fun for everyone who isn't trying to make extreme builds.

    ZOS needs to small-scale PvP instead of making massive changes that hurt everyone not involved.
    Focus on BG where they can control the numbers and thereby control performance stress. Then in that focussed environment, examine how people are playing and decide if they want to make change to support what really the game design wasn't intended to support.
  • Dusk_Coven
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    I think the main issue with ball groups is inside captured keeps. The concept of, "Don't feed the ball groups," is fine up to a point. But you cannot leave 30 enemy players running in circles inside your home keep and go do other things. It takes very little effort for them to flip the keep from the inside and it starts all over again. Ball groups at resources? Sure. Ball groups in middle of contested keep fights? Sure. Ball groups at choke points like gates and bridges? Sure. But once a faction takes a keep, any enemy players still inside need to be severely debuffed or insta-killed after a certain amount of time or something.

    Maybe when people die everything should go dark? So they can't just lay there and keep looking around to see if it's time to get a rez? Or tell others it's finally safe to come in and rez them? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/494705/when-you-are-dead-everything-should-go-dark
    Or force-release all dead bodies after a resource/keep is secured after a countdown.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on July 31, 2020 12:49AM
  • volkeswagon
    volkeswagon
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    infinite sustain? How can I do that. I always run out of stamina
  • Anyron
    Anyron
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    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Skoomah wrote: »
    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

    You’re not making any sense. Have you actually stepped foot in cyrodiil lately?

    I'm making plenty of sense. People who dont like ball groups get killed by ball groups with no skill. Its funny how people who coordinate and play fluidly have "no skill" but the leet casuals and zergs getting wipes are FULL of skill. On that note, yes cyro lags. Thats a game limitation, not because of ball groups. They need more/better server side resources. Not less players and more restriction.

    Im playing solo or with one friend on discord. Before we used to put sieges on ballgroups atleast but now we just leave the area. fighting with ball is sooo annoying these days.. Just endless lag and high ping. If you enjoy mashing one button good, but I dont
    If healing and especially purge is limited to 4 person max this still opens space for smallscale 5-8 players..
    You cannot even negate them with 2 negates because of high speed movement and stamina vigor spam healing

    But I see problem in PURGE, not healing
  • jecks33
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    Tandor wrote: »
    can we please have a firm commitment from @ZOS_RichLambert that no changes relating to resolving performance issues in PvP will be applied to PvE?


    no, it is obvious that any change to the skills impact pvp AND pve because the skills are the same ones
    PC-EU
  • Kadoin
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    infinite sustain? How can I do that. I always run out of stamina

    ZOS making poor balance decisions and ignoring PTS input on things like mythics and new sets is how...
  • Spartabunny08
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    Er, the intention is to prevent ball groups from running around with "infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage." They can't address it through sets (they've tried), skills (they've tried), AOE target caps (tried that too), group busters like siege weapons and new weapon sets (turns out ball groups use those effectively too, who'da thunk it!), and now they've settled for fundamentally reworking AOEs to prevent spam through hard coding limits.

    You and people like you have been whining for nerfs to ball groups and you finally got one...you just don't like what you got.

    careful what you ask for right...
  • Spartabunny08
    Spartabunny08
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    Just wait and see what happens before we get out the pitchforks and torches...lol
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    @VaranisArano
    They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.

    Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.

    I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.

    The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).
  • craybest
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    Never seen one of those ball zergs in cyrodill people talk about ( I don't really pvp) but I can't help to imagine them as a rat king, that thing made up of several days tied by their tails xD
  • Luckylancer
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    So you say there are no 12 man group non-cp ball groups that spam radiating?

    Reduced group, non cp, target capped heal...

    OP, you shall not open rage treats. You do not qualify.
  • Hurbster
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    100% a problem of Zenimax's own creation. They created, designed, tested, and curated these skills. The same goes for the CP system.
    So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.
  • BNOC
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    Kalik_Gold wrote: »
    Agree with everything except taking away CP in PvP....

    such a shame this is desired by many. CP is the only endgame and then they strip it from battlegrounds weakening a a character that you have balanced which works in Overland, Imperial City, Cyrodiil and dugeons (basically everywhere) except BG's.

    But hey... people will say it makes the 810 superb and godly compared to a 161.... eventually that 161 will be 810 and want to use the CP system also.

    If they remove it from PvP (Cyro/Imp City to match BGs) remove it from PvE as well and just have Level 50 flat be the end of leveling.

    Except, I'd hope you're not using the same build across overland/IC/Cyro/PvE - If you are, as many are, that would typically explain the push back against no-CP, because you're not about adaptation.

    You will actually find that if you run a flat stat build (think shackle breaker, BTB, spriggans etc) then you'll actually be able to swap between all PvP environments without any issue (you just won't have it all) - As opposed to those who have it all that are only viable because of CP - I've said it 100 times, but the amount of these players that step into noCP and can't keep up anymore is a joke and it's often because they youtubed their build and simply can't think for themselves.

    So many people desire it because at it's base, you are responsible for what you have or don't - The choices are yours. Want tankiness? Go for it but you have no damage. Damage? Maybe you lose tankiness or sustain and so on.
    CP allows you to have it all and turns fights into 15 minute sustain battle yawnfests where 1 player is often pummelling the other the entire fight but it's just a stalemate of attack vs defence.

    Also, you mentioned weaker characters in BGs, I'd argue that your character is arguably stronger in BGS for the same reasons as above due to the fact others have to make choices on tankiness/healing/damage/sustain/mobility etc.

    You said it makes an 810 godly compared to a 160, which it does, but only one that knows what they're doing. I've seen many 160's beat 810s with ease, especially when it comes to BGs - Whilst that's a testament to their ability and mechanical understanding, I do think the game has become increasingly easy, requiring less build changes, less understanding and is more forgiving of mistakes. Any 160 can run whatever is the current 3 button meta burst class and drop people.

    Cp removal would need to be met with significant changes across many sets and abilities.

    The only saving grace for Cp pvp is that 90% are sheep that don't have a clue what they're doing and don't optimize as they could - If everyone ran those all round builds, Cyrodil would without question be a dead zone.
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    @VaranisArano
    They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.

    Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.

    I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.

    The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).

    Cyrodiil was originally intended for groups of 8 to 24 players, eventually 2 to 24. The majority of the zone's objectives require large groups, even faction stacks, to accomplish (when they aren't PvDoor).

    There's lots of room in Cyrodiil for small scale and solo players. There always has been. But that's not who the major objectives were designed for.

    And I'm agreeing with their point. These are the sort of changes that a good, large group can mitigate more than anyone else, leaving every smaller or less organized group much weaker in comparison. Thing is, that's been the case with every single group nerf ZOS brings to Cyrodiil. Why? Because the zone, fundamentally, is designed to favor large, organized groups. And its certainly not balanced to favor solo or small scale groups in fights against coordinated large groups.
  • NocturnalSonata
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    You dont need to see a ball group to feel the lag increase 10X...

    I dont know what the solution is, but reworking skills, timers and the such will not eliminate ball grps.They are a coordinated grp, so, for example, even if you made grouping impossible, they would just run together anyway... nothing changes. The same would apply for almost every change, as the group would just adapt.

    what needs to change is the felt effect they have. their mere presence ruins it for everyone.
  • spartaxoxo
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    @VaranisArano
    They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.

    Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.

    I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.

    The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).

    What are these changes you guys are talking about?
  • ItsJustHashtag
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    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Gorreck wrote: »
    brianzim87 wrote: »
    Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

    Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

    In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

    Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

    If it was so easy you'd see more and there'd be rivalries. I don't see it. I see like 1 or 2 MAX per faction and zergs just feeding the monster over and over again screaming WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. That and people saying ball groups are easy and no skill. smh.

    It used to have a lot more but a lot of players have quit so their groups have died. They quit because performance and poor development decisions
  • VaranisArano
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    You dont need to see a ball group to feel the lag increase 10X...

    I dont know what the solution is, but reworking skills, timers and the such will not eliminate ball grps.They are a coordinated grp, so, for example, even if you made grouping impossible, they would just run together anyway... nothing changes. The same would apply for almost every change, as the group would just adapt.

    what needs to change is the felt effect they have. their mere presence ruins it for everyone.

    Which, I think, is what ZOS is trying to do. That "felt effect", ZOS says, is the server trying and failing to handle constant AOE spam that's only possible in a properly built, tightly coordinated group.

    Thing is, every nerf they've thrown at ball groups has made it even more important for those groups to spam heals and damage, and with the lag and the zergs those groups fight, AOEs are always the best option. Hence ZOS looking at hard coding limits on AOE spam.
    Edited by VaranisArano on July 31, 2020 1:23PM
  • Daviiid_ESO
    Daviiid_ESO
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    You dont need to see a ball group to feel the lag increase 10X...

    I dont know what the solution is, but reworking skills, timers and the such will not eliminate ball grps.They are a coordinated grp, so, for example, even if you made grouping impossible, they would just run together anyway... nothing changes. The same would apply for almost every change, as the group would just adapt.

    what needs to change is the felt effect they have. their mere presence ruins it for everyone.

    There have been many many many times where no ball group was playing and the lag was just as bad. It's the faction blob causing the lag
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    @VaranisArano
    They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.

    Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.

    I see this statement waaayyyy to often and idk why people use this excuse when it's simply not true. Cyrodil is created for solo/small scale as much as for large battles.

    The point of Smokehappiness comment is that they good ballgroups won't care about these AoE changes, however, anyone who isn't a part of a larger group might as well not bother with Cyrodil if any of ZOS 4 suggested changes goes through (unless you're a stamblade I guess).

    What are these changes you guys are talking about?

    ZOS is running 4 tests in Cyrodiil to determine the impact of AOEs on performance. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests

    Its aimed at nerfing the ability of well built, large groups to spam AOEs, but it's going to impact everyone in pretty crippling ways. You can see the skills impacted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539584/i-tested-many-abilities-on-the-pts-to-see-what-they-restricted-here-are-my-results
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