For God’s Sake - STOP Changing This Game For Ball Groups in Cyrodiil

Skoomah

Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

Because why?

You refuse to add group caps.
You refuse to add target caps for healing.
You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.

So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.

LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Maybe we need to go back to Morrowind Dice Roll Combat.

BRCOURTN

I love turn based games!

Grandchamp1989

If we turn this game to a turn base game it could go on your cellphone and we could play ESO everwhere!

"You got phones right?"

Tandor

While I note that the tests will only be run in Cyrodiil, and there is an implication if not a clear indication that the results may be applied to other PvP contexts, can we please have a firm commitment from @ZOS_RichLambert that no changes relating to resolving performance issues in PvP will be applied to PvE? That would enable much of the heat to dissipate from the discussions about this announcement, and PvPers could be left to debate the ball group and other issues without PvEers feeling the need to join in.

VaranisArano

Er, the intention is to prevent ball groups from running around with "infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage." They can't address it through sets (they've tried), skills (they've tried), AOE target caps (tried that too), group busters like siege weapons and new weapon sets (turns out ball groups use those effectively too, who'da thunk it!), and now they've settled for fundamentally reworking AOEs to prevent spam through hard coding limits.

You and people like you have been whining for nerfs to ball groups and you finally got one...you just don't like what you got.

brianzim87

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Skoomah

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

You’re not making any sense. Have you actually stepped foot in cyrodiil lately?

karekiz

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree.

Did 8 man group crash the zone though?

Gedalya

Skoomah wrote: »

Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

Because why?

You refuse to add group caps.
You refuse to add target caps for healing.
You refuse to take away the god mode CP system in PVP.

So these ball groups just run around with infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage, blowing up the server, and then you rework entire fundamental combat systems to accommodate them.

LET ME ALSO ADD... IT TAKES NO SKILL TO RUN IN A BALL GROUP. IT’S THE MOST MIND NUMBING GAMEPLAY EVER.

It does take coordination; you have to be present in voice comms and be able to listen and respond to commands like "left" and "right". Ball groups also encourage roles; its like having a 12-person raid group plucked straight from a trial and dropped in Cyrodiil.

While we are on the subject; why do people feed the ball group? The same question gets asked for Volendrung; but seriously, I've seen groups take a keep then sit inside and feed the ball group passing from the top inner keep back down to the bottom.

Gorreck

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

Sm0ke

@VaranisArano
They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.

zaria

VaranisArano wrote: »

Er, the intention is to prevent ball groups from running around with "infinite sustain, infinite healing, infinite damage." They can't address it through sets (they've tried), skills (they've tried), AOE target caps (tried that too), group busters like siege weapons and new weapon sets (turns out ball groups use those effectively too, who'da thunk it!), and now they've settled for fundamentally reworking AOEs to prevent spam through hard coding limits.

You and people like you have been whining for nerfs to ball groups and you finally got one...you just don't like what you got.

In an PvP environment like real life war an good sized group of well trained and well coordinated group will kill an 10 times larger mob in an single engagement, larger if enemy is spread out so you defeat in detail.
Archetype is the roman legions.
This assumes pretty similar gear who is true in ESO. Its not like the ball groups has 10 battleship and 200 heavy bombers for support.
Its no way to solve this "problem" without an handicap system somehow. Yes you could cap group damage but then they just run 4-8 man groups with addons and discord to synchronize.

pauld1_ESO

brianzim87 wrote: »

Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Ummm.... for most of us it is to have fun. I choose to make a name for myself where it matters, in real life.

pauld1_ESO

Gorreck wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

Agreed, all it takes is coordination and discipline enough to work as a team. As long as you have people willing to train to play the game like a job and follow orders any tool can do this.

BRCOURTN

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Ummm.... for most of us it is to have fun. I choose to make a name for myself where it matters, in real life.

yeah I've heard of people who play a lot of pvp at stuff like, "I've played against this guy and he's really good!" It probably feels good to be recognized like that.

However unlike them or you, I prefer to not make s name for myself at all!

SmukkeHeks

The ballgroups are utterly destroying Cyrodiil.
And the main reason as to why, is because of the stability when they enter map.

It doesn't take any coordination skills, as the lag itself does the dirty work. The only thing a ballgroup has to be aware of, is moving in the same direction and keeping the routine.

I’m not sure the test will remove that.
I’m still not sure they’ve taken care of the cheating.
Still not sure what happened to the costume woopsie, simply because all of those “that’s weird” situations, where that costume could be the explanation.

Under these conditions, ballgroups take zero skills.

madman65

Ah finally, some groups whine and the Devs change. PVP should have a baseline to work from and that`s that, deal with it. If someone is cheating record it and turn it in or just turn the players name in. I rarely go to Cyrodiil or Imperial City because of the cheating and the changes. If it was me, sword or staff with skills and that`s that.

BlueRaven

I avoid PVP as much as I can, but I always viewed ball groups like an invading army. Conceptually, I love large groups fighting castles etc.

brianzim87

Gorreck wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

If it was so easy you'd see more and there'd be rivalries. I don't see it. I see like 1 or 2 MAX per faction and zergs just feeding the monster over and over again screaming WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. That and people saying ball groups are easy and no skill. smh.

brianzim87

Skoomah wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

You’re not making any sense. Have you actually stepped foot in cyrodiil lately?

I'm making plenty of sense. People who dont like ball groups get killed by ball groups with no skill. Its funny how people who coordinate and play fluidly have "no skill" but the leet casuals and zergs getting wipes are FULL of skill. On that note, yes cyro lags. Thats a game limitation, not because of ball groups. They need more/better server side resources. Not less players and more restriction.

Cronopoly

Skoomah wrote: »

Took away animation canceling, added numerous proc sets and free damage, now you’re going to turn this game into a turn based global cooldown everything, super slow game.

Because why?

"Raid Shadow Legends" turn based combat is where we are going to stabilize the architecture... J/K 😁😙

VaranisArano

SmokeHappiness wrote: »

@VaranisArano
They got the same nerf then ball group. No one has figured it out yet. Solo players will become even more helpless in front of ball groups. You will see that soon.

Of course they will be. Cyrodiil is designed for large groups, not for solo or small scale groups to win against coordinated groups of 8 to 24 players. And that's the real crux of this griping, isn't it? That Cyrodiil is designed to favor large groups all the way up to faction stacks, not solo or small groups.

brianzim87

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Ummm.... for most of us it is to have fun. I choose to make a name for myself where it matters, in real life.

Ah I figured I'd get this response. We can all agree that real life is what matters. That goes without mentioning here. You always see responses like this as if everyone playing isn't already aware that they have responsibilities outside of a video game. smh haha. However, when I play things, I enjoy being competitive. Winning is something I strive to do. There's an element of immersion that pvp creates. For example in DAOC, when Natives group was seen out in rvr and some kill spam. Everyone was like oooh man natives on. It created tension. It was super fun. Everyone wanted to beat Natives group. Some people like to find a sense of immersion in the games they play. Making a name for yourself in pvp is part of that. I don't see how you stepping up on your high horse showing everyone how much of a straight forward person you are with your worries IRL helps here. We are all aware that we have IRL stuff to do.

parpin

one thing gw2 does well is they balance skills in pvp and pve separately, for example one skill might get nerff or buff base on pvp only and it wont effect pve, and vice versa, issue in eso is the balance everything around one thin, some times they change stuff around pve and pvp players start complaining or they change skills around pvp and pve players complaining( for example in this case), they need to separate skills for pvp and pve.

runningtings

SmukkeHeks wrote: »

The ballgroups are utterly destroying Cyrodiil.
And the main reason as to why, is because of the stability when they enter map.

It doesn't take any coordination skills, as the lag itself does the dirty work. The only thing a ballgroup has to be aware of, is moving in the same direction and keeping the routine.

I’m not sure the test will remove that.
I’m still not sure they’ve taken care of the cheating.
Still not sure what happened to the costume woopsie, simply because all of those “that’s weird” situations, where that costume could be the explanation.

Under these conditions, ballgroups take zero skills.

Absolutely spot on. I play solo so don't go near the ballgroups but the general lag across zone affects everything, including my solo and smallscale fights.

gatekeeper13

I live for the day that this ball-group atrocity will vanish from Cyro. It literally requires zero skill, wrecks performance and make PVP a total nightmare. I really wonder why they are still allowing them to be there.


Remove cross-healing, lower group capacity, nerf AoE while in a group, dont know what but do sth.

Dusk_Coven

PvP -- all types -- needs a separate server running a separate ruleset so when the devs try to duct tape it yet again they don't have to mess with what's fun in PvE.

Gorreck

brianzim87 wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

If it was so easy you'd see more and there'd be rivalries. I don't see it. I see like 1 or 2 MAX per faction and zergs just feeding the monster over and over again screaming WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. That and people saying ball groups are easy and no skill. smh.

It requires a bit of organisation (about as much as could be done fairly easily with BOT software), but as I said nothing like in many other MMORPGs

In other MMORPGs large groups would move with precision, central tanks and DPS, flanking channelled AOE, healers carefully at the back-central, your superior organisation and positioning won the battle (it actually mattered if your formation was flanked, for example). Think ESO small scale only with raid size grouping - and yes there were massive rivialries.

Ball-groups in ESO don't really work like that there's very little positioning other than stacking and the use of terrain is also rudimentary (a bit of LOSing and turn & burn) because the whole premise is just stacking your DPS, snares and possibly stuns on a spot whilst overhealing and cleansing like mad and if you lag, so much the better as lag kills half your victims for you.

VaranisArano

pauld1_ESO wrote: »

Gorreck wrote: »

brianzim87 wrote: »

Coming from Dark Age of Camelot where 8mans (ball groups in daoc) were strong and could coordinate and wipe entire zergs if played right. I disagree. I think competitive group play is awesome. I think casually zerging can be fun. I think small scale fights are awesome. I enjoy every aspect of open world, realm/faction based combat. If running a ball group is so easy, just do it yourself and fight the enemy ball group. Why do people complain about having a dynamic pvp system where you can fight undermanned and win if you're better? I don't know. In dark age when the first 8 mans showed up.. you have people start their own 8mans.. rivalries ensued. TO THIS DAY on daoc servers, there are still 8mans running around on phoenix server. New players and vets alike. I think its amazing how people can coordinate, and sustain and wreck loads of players. Making a name for yourself is what pvp is about.

Tbh though ESO ball-groups are very low skill.

In plenty of MMORPGs in group PvP you have to worry about positioning, direction, channels and timings to be effective.

Where as most ball-groups in ESO could easily be played by BOTs.

Agreed, all it takes is coordination and discipline enough to work as a team. As long as you have people willing to train to play the game like a job and follow orders any tool can do this.

The trick is getting people who are willing to train, work together, and follow orders/lead the group...and have fun doing it. That playstyle doesn't appeal to everyone. I enjoy it because its hands-down the most effective way to do objective-based PVP and I enjoy teaming up with my guildmates. My SO doesn't care for it because they don't like the time commitment or following orders, so they don't play in a raid.

Coordination and group discipline are indeed the foundation of organized raids, and it turns out those qualities aren't that common.

Nemesis7884

I understand that they are at their wits end but ZOS realize this if you go trhough with this and basically change every class from top to bottom just to make them feasible for a 3 second cooldown in cyrodiil

so basically disrupt any class in pve and pvp completely just to serve a small tiny minority in cyrodiil - this will be the final straw that destroys this game