I hate PVP with an unmeasurable amount of angst. To be forced to get to rank 5 in a skill line I despise and don't use just have have rapid maneuver. I don't want to earn back what I had already, it's stupid. On the first page I saw a post that showed how much you AP you need to have. So that's fine if you want to make the change give me a token for 98,000 AP for any of my chars with the riding skill. Then I won't care. Because I won't PVP unless I am forced to do so for an event and I will still have rapid maneuver that I use all the time.

I can survive just fine without vigor I do not go around dying all the time but I do ride around and use rapid maneuver. In addition to that it's not even that great of a self heal. If it's truly meant for the leveling experience and to keep you from dying then make it cpst 2K stamina. On my level 19 Templar it will cost 6885 Stamina.

There is the other suggestion to move it to a different skill like. I wouldn't mind that either. To a skill like where I don't have to PVP or do trials or something I never do in order to earn it. Move it to world or the support skill line.

All of my chars have whatever kind of self heal move I can get from whichever skill line. It's sufficient.

I chose Other because I believe the change will go ahead anyway.

Even though it looks like a small change to some people it has a large impact on my 2 accounts and 36 chars will mean to get Rapids active on all again I will need to level up 21 chars in PVP.

It is just extra and unwanted character activity to be done when I already have a busy time managing the selection of chars I play.

However I guess the effect is similar to ZOS changing a popular gear set so it becomes almost useless so players need to go and spend time farming for a replacement set. This and similar changes just adds a time penalty on the player base.

So my final thought is maybe it is now time to look at getting all my chars levelled in PVP so Alliance skills are both at 10.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If Vigor becomes the 1st Assault skill, then Rapids should be the 2nd.

Everyone saying "AP is easy to make in Cyrodiil" is missing that it's a lot harder to make AP on a new character with a slow mount when you keep missing fights because it takes forever to get places.

This is so true. Almost the first thing I do when levelling a new toon is hit Cyrodiil. With a noob horse, my group's rapids is only available to me for the first cast. By the time 20sec (or however long it lasts) rolls around, I am far behind and need to cast it myself. I prefer being the underdog in the campaign, because there is more action, trying to claw ground back, but this results in looooong gallops. Without rapids, I have to anticipate the fights and just shortcut straight to the next objective because I will only reach every second place before it's taken. Obviously everyone will be affected differently, depending on their priority skill but for me ,this will be a crummy change. Like with everything else they do, I will just grind my teeth and bear it because no amount of complaining seems to change their mind.

SshadowSscale wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CombatPrayer wrote: »

Czeri wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I have a lot of stam characters, and when I'm levelling them, having a slow horse is worse than not having vigour. Besides on a lowbie I put attributes on both stam and mag, since most skills start as mag, and there's always a mag self heal available. I still grind vigour/caltrops as soon as I can enter Cyro, it's not a lot of AP, but I think rapids are more useful to my lowbies.

That's not true. Nightblades don't have a self-heal. Trying to play a stamblade with a resto staff doesn't work.

That is something that ZOS should fix then. It's always been a *** design that it doesn't have a self heal. Perhaps they should address that issue rather than screwing with a whole line that is only available through PVP.

Actually, NBs do have self heals. That person is probably speaking only to stamina based which I cannot think of a class heal that is stamina based in any of the original four classes. Off the top of my head, the class-based heals among the original classes scale off magicka, damage done (but still magicka), or missing health. I might be missing something.

Aight go make a stamblade and tell me how great of a self heal strive is when you realize it ticks for less than your health recovery...... But oh no stamina nb heal is op no need for stamina nightblades to get vigor because stamina nightblade has best heal... While you are at it grind out bgs on said stamblade and tell me how much rapids helped you with that compared to how much vigor would have helped.... And yes bgs are the quickest and easiest way ti grind out the skill line

it absolutely sucks for the nightblades. i say that as a stamblade main who actualy quit the game for a while, cause I struggled so much on her.

however.

the proper fix is NOT to make it worse for everyone else.

the fix is to give STAMBLADES AN APPROPRIATE CLASS HEAL.

Keep it as is. If theyre really adamant on the change they can put both skills unlocked at level 1 in the assault tree. Rapids is most useful to new players, getting from keep to keep with 1% mount speed is a ball ache.

Fine, make a magika morph for vigor then. It should be usable by both mag and stam toons as it is tied to a generic "for everyone" skill line.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Lets be clear.

Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill for all new chars or low level alts (level 10 upwards).

Still seems so strange to read stuff like this. I've got 8 characters (5 of them fully leveled) and have never even thought of getting/having Rapids.

Vigor, I've lusted after every time I played my Stamblade. (not enough to ever PvP, though. I did dream of eventually getting it via login bonus AP rewards, until I realized it would take like 3+ years with the amount of AP that they usually give.)

PapaWeeb wrote: »

The only reason I see for moving such an essential skill to the 5th slot is to get people to buy mount speed for crowns.

Of course, I'm also constantly surprised to see people talk about actually buying those Crown books. They seem like the stupidest "what do you mean they actually sell?!?!" wasteful purchase in the whole store. Burning your money with a match seems less wasteful than those things - at least you get some light & heat from that.

PapaWeeb wrote: »

Make vigor #1, make rapids #2. Why is that so difficult? The only reason I see for moving such an essential skill to the 5th slot is to get people to buy mount speed for crowns.

They are moving it to the second slot, which requires Rank 5 to unlock.

My experience has been the following:

Turns out all my characters PvPd enough that only one of them was not rank 5 (he was rank 4 and is now rank 5), so this change doesn't affect me.

However, I have offered to my guildies that don't PvP and use rapids a lot that I would go to Cyrodiil with them and help them get each of their alts to rank 5.

A couple of them have taken me up on it, and one in particular, who uses rapids on each of her characters, but only 2 already have rank 5.

So we went to Cyrodiil a couple of evenings on a semi-busy campaign, looking for fights, getting resources when we could, dying when we encountered the enemy, and it's taken on average 2.5-3 hours to get her characters from rank 3 to rank 5, because she doesn't have a lot of experience in PvP and isn't as fast at doing stuff that we do automatically (spreading AoEs, setting up siege, having repair kits slotted and ready) and I seem to be earning about twice as much AP as she is while we are playing together.

All the while, I feel like she's really not having fun. And I feel terrible for her, because we still have 6 or so characters to go through, and that's going to be at least 20 hours of an activity she doesn't care for and is not enjoying. (I'm hoping this will go faster once we are doing EP characters because that's my PvP alliance and we can group with my PvP guild)

And before you say battlegrounds will be faster, there is no way she's going to go into a completely new game mode without being able to group with her guild. It's not happening. And if it did, it would be even less enjoyable for her than PvP in Cyrodiil.

So yeah, each week I look at the PTS patch notes in hope that ZOS has come to their senses and come up with an alternate solution that keeps Rapids for those who already have it, while making vigor more accessible to players who think they need it.

PS: Vigor really hasn't saved my stamblade in these incursions into Cyrodiil, so YMMV.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Lets be clear.

Rapids is an essential Quality of Life skill for all new chars or low level alts (level 10 upwards).

Still seems so strange to read stuff like this. I've got 8 characters (5 of them fully leveled) and have never even thought of getting/having Rapids.

Vigor, I've lusted after every time I played my Stamblade. (not enough to ever PvP, though. I did dream of eventually getting it via login bonus AP rewards, until I realized it would take like 3+ years with the amount of AP that they usually give.)

I think that's the main thing here. You're looking at this strictly from your own experience, where X thing appears more useful to you than Y thing, and aren't really taking in the number of people who are saying Y is more of a QoL thing because it can be used by all characters, not just Stam chars who don't use DW or 2H. YOU personally might not use Rapids or think about it, but it should be clear here that many, many, MANY people do.

That's the big problem a lot of people have with this proposed change. Rapids can be used by anyone for just about any content, getting around faster makes things less tedious and it allows you to get to various time-sensitive things. It isn't just about getting from point A to B faster, it's about actually being able to get to various things before they end. Vigor is a skill only Stam chars without a Class/Weapon line heal use, and even then not all builds use it. I wouldn't say it's a niche skill, though I feel it's certainly used less since it got changed than it did in the past, but it's less useful to a lot of players than Rapids is. Also as others have mentioned, lower-level chars don't really need access to Vigor that quickly because of battle leveling, aka you can use Magicka heals for a while because you have a bigger Magicka pool than a Stam char at max level does.

I see both sides. Not getting rapids immediately is going to suck for newer players/lowbie alts who don’t want to travel at a snail’s pace. It’s especially going to be felt in Cyro, trying to get to an objective before the fight’s over is going to be tricky.
But not having vigor sooner can hit certain classes particularly hard, especially in Cyro. Heck, even for new characters with no/low CP. I’ve seen plenty of them die during dolmens and stuff like that, so saying that even overland is easy enough to not use it clearly doesn’t take all players into account.
I do think that skills that help survivability, even if we’re just talking about stam classes without their own heals, should be prioritized over being able to ride a mount faster.
Since it’s so detrimental to be super slow in Cyrodiil, which honestly I thing is more important to consider than being able to go somewhere faster in PVE, it is an Alliance War skill after all, I like the aforementioned suggestion to move Vigor to the first support skill. If not that then begrudgingly I say go with the change, because, again, survivability should be prioritized over perks like going faster.

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Fine, make a magika morph for vigor then. It should be usable by both mag and stam toons as it is tied to a generic "for everyone" skill line.

Yes because the game barely has any mag healing class skills 🙄