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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
PvP - Removal of skilled Gameplay
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Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except abilities cost resources and a gcd to use and are still weaker for the most part.3 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I think they are more like free damage. You do not need to do anything other than left click to activate most of them. Skills cost resources proc sets don't. I would say something acquired at no cost is free damage. In the proposed patch notes they also do, double damage of most skills.
I actually think proc sets are fine and want PvP to be more accessible for new players. I don't think they should do more damage than skills, considering they are free.2 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted post was removed]
You dont even know who I am but ok...weird flex.
Well they are kind of free damage, since activating them is pretty much for free and does not require a lot of player input. On the other hand the player get lower stats as a tradeoff. In the case of an inexpirienced player this tradeoff is not really severe, since they can not use stats (which you would get more with a stat set) properly or to their full potential.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on July 19, 2020 5:18PM1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just love that the argument made by the title suggests pvp is full of skilled gameplay except for proc sets lol. Most fights are groups zerging down smaller numbers, which isn't skillfull unless you are the smaller group (usually). Or attacking someone without them knowing a fight is going on as you come out of stealth (alls fair in love and war and all that sure, but still not really skill) and then running away if you fail. Or using some other cheese build that "doesn't count" b/c it's not a proc, etc. Or just relying on fighting players that are new or even pvers there b/c of an event where it's like MJ playing 1v5 vs. a bunch of middle school kids. Or small groups of 4-5 guys all in group and comms not admitted to themselves that fighting another same size group of players not in group or comms is just 5v1 at a time as you go through the pugs. Or getting the hammer or emp so you can be overtuned and kill a bunch of stuff even easier, etc.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC4 -
Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭I agree with most of this,
In terms of the crit resists, i cant say it favored lower skilled players....but just opens the door for newer players to get into pvp easier without a gear window. Skill isnt really affected in anyway. If anything me having the ability to run a more efficient trait over the next guy helps me more.
Zos's view on healing comes from lack of pvp knowledge. Much like how they havent been able to figure out the server load issue.
1. Cross healing out of groups is an issue. (40+ players able to heal each other...cant imagine why the server has issues)
2. Utility sets going out of group are an issue (some sets are changing this patch to work only on groups....again cant imagine why the servers have issues).
3. Over time effects stacking are an issue (remember when a 50 man group couldnt stack 50 rapid regens on someone.....ugh a third time, cant imagine why the servers have issues)
4. Mass CC in available with little counterplay options (snare/root immunity could be doubled in duration, more sources)
5. Ap is too lucrative for mass pvdooring (could make incentives for guilds taking keeps to gain ap from campaign rewards based on what they contribute. Make resources worth exponentially more based on the amount of seige/counterseige on the keep. Remove destroyable bridges/gates and make transit lines between the outposts/towns and trikeeps instead of gates to edge keeps.
6. The community has been annoyed at procs since the old days.....pvp could easily have something added to battlespirit if zos didnt want to change sets. The same *** happens everytime we get into a proc/dot meta. People get pissed at dying to mechanics that dont require skill, dots/procs get nerfed....then we all of a sudden are in a "tank" meta where people cant kill anything. Tbh the "tank" meta complaints are just because 90% of the players now are terrible at burst. PvP has become pve rotations with maybe a small ult burst rotation. This is why you see people angry at the old magsorc players.....their damage comes from timing abilities together to get burst, and this is hard to digest for most people these days apparently.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PVP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc, and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy--as opposed to sets like New Moon Acolyte where all you have to do is equip them.SavageChain wrote: »During the last patches (months and even years) ZOS tried to make this game more and more casual friendly to please a big, but maybe also short living population of players. There were several tries to lower the ceiling and raise the floor for PvE to the state of really simple input of a player can result in decent performance (such as dps for example). Also PvP was hit with several changes, which mostly benefited the larger population of newer and less experienced players.
In greymoor we have seen changes to critical resistance, such as lower effects of the impenetrable trait (another change coming next patch) and a base critical resistance. Naturally this allows some bigger build diversity, since impenetrable is not the only single trait for PvP anymore, but also inexperienced players not having fundamental knowledge about this now have a natural critical resistance. Another change was the healing reduction of battle spirit from 50% to 60%, which in general is a 20% nerf to healing. A change hurting the solo individual outside of a group rather than the actual problem: cross healing between players and high stackable mitigation.
The PvP in this game has huge potential and everybody can (almost) play as they like. From solo PvP over small scale groups to ball groups or huge zergs, there is something for everybody, still there are differences of skill required to perform in these different kind of PvP content. Normally the smaller the group the more difficult the content gets. Still I would not call ball grouping unskilled. But in the end I want to talk about solo PvP or small scale PvP, which in my opinion requires the most or actual skill. Lots of people can agree, that this content got more and more difficult during the last years, since many changes hurt the solo PvPers more than the big groups.
A very big part playing into this too are damage proc sets (well not only damage proc sets, but coming to that later). Patches ago a good PvP build was about maximizing stats to make your skills as impactful as possible. But with the time more and more proc sets made it into the game, dealing damage or providing heals additionally to what you yourself actually did. The first sets mostly had dealing damage as a requirement to unleash their effect, they came with proc chances. Every patch we got more and more of these sets, meanwhile the proc conditions got a bit more tricky (well not really tricky, but more specific). Nowadays there are plenty of these sets around and building around them actually is more than viable. Even in cp builds including one or more proc sets are very oppressive and deal very good damage in PvP. Already one damage proc set can deal 10% to 20% of a players total dps in a 1v1 fight. Using multiple sets of this kind can contribute to more than 50% of your damage.
Especially in no cp PvP a lot of players let their proc sets deal the most part of their damage, zaan, grothdarr or maw of infernal are universally used on magicka and stamina builds as monster sets. Additionally, morkuldin, poisonous serpent and the new venomous smite are used very often. On the magicka site overwhelming surge, caluurion or ice furnace are seen frequently. The new mythic item malacaths band of brutality made the already high prevalence of damage proc sets even “worse” in no cp PvP. Not only no cp PvP is plagued by this, especially with malacaths band of brutality these proc sets are used more and more in cp PvP too.
The Patch v6.10 introduced another strong damage proc set and many old ones were reworked. A lot of these old sets’ damage was increased and many lost their proc chance. Following I listed some damage proc sets, which allow a base dps of 2000 damage more by almost zero player input (they may have a cooldown diminishing that value over a longer time, but many fights do no go on for a prolonged time):
Venomous Smite: 2241 damage per second for 10 seconds, 15 seconds cooldown
Red Mountain: 5918 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Unfathomable Darkness: 6020 damage every 3 seconds
Way of Fire: 4000 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Icy Conjuror: 21700 damage over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Pillar of Nirn: 4718 damage initially and 23590 over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Plague Slinger: 5095 damage every second for 5 seconds, 8 seconds cooldown
Poisonous Serpent: 3945 damage every 2 seconds (ok almost 2k dps)
Merciless Charge: 10032 damage over 5 seconds, no cooldown
and the new Unleashed Terror: 19728 damage over 5 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown.
Short example: Any stamina character can combine unleashed terror and merciless charge to apply a 29760 damage over 5 seconds to any enemy in stampedes AoE.
All those numbers by the way are the unbuffed numbers and even in no cp PvP are increased by damage done modifiers (like malacaths band of brutality or essence thief, etc).
All those sets alone deal quite oppressive damage on their own. Fighting somebody with only one of these sets can be frustrating and exhausting. If the enemy combines those sets with each other or with monster sets, it will get even worse. Now imagine fighting multiple opponents with those sets.
Well this all would not be that bad, if those sets had a difficult proc condition. On the current live server red mountain and way of fire have a rather small proc chance, therefore only builds using flurry for example can make the set work. But with the coming update many proc sets auto proc on any damage reapplying very easily without any further doing of the player. One player can use a 10 second dot together with the sets way of fire and red mountain and will get almost 10k additional damage on every second tick of this one dot. Merciless charge plus unleashed terror unleashes a 6k damage over time effect on everybody by using on skill. Especially this patch with the lower healing through battlespirit, where breath of life heals for 4-5k, matriarch for 5-6k, vigor ticks for 2k, these sets will deal obnoxious, in many cases unavoidable damage, by doing nothing.
This new update makes proccing powerful proc sets too easy resulting in massive free damage outside of the global cooldown. Many players are dissatisfied with this easiness to deal damage thanks to these changes. People are dissatisfied with those mechanics, they were dissatisfied during the last proc meta, they are dissatisfied in the current proc meta in no cp, they are dissatisfied in other games like WoW with the proc meta and will be dissatisfied in the next patch, if this goes through.
Well not only damage proc sets will be prevalent next patch, but also healing sets. Many sets like draugr’s heritage got their cooldown reduced, healing the player when falling low health, maybe saving their life, an easy survive mechanic with a new very short cooldown.
Many players feel bad about using proc sets, because in the end the sets do the job instead of yourself, they feel ashamed using them, because it is called cheese. It is unpleasant to fight against a proc set user, when you feel the enemies win is based on the sets and not his skill.
In conclusion:
The new update will reintroduce a proc set meta, since the proc conditions are mostly taken away from many sets. Applying the damage procs will be as easy as never before and will augment the damage output of inexperienced players a lot by zero player input. Same goes for healing, since many self heal sets will have a low cooldown saving lives again and again. These changes will motivate players to use these sets, allow lazy gameplay, inhibits players actually playing the game and letting their sets do the work. Skill will be meaningless in such a state of the game, since all you have to do is apply your sets damage. The more proc sets you have, the better you are, promoting people to not learn the game, to not improve. Meanwhile experienced players will be either overwhelmed by the incoming free damage or will go the same route abusing proc sets.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PvP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc--and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy. As opposed to sets that just buff your stats, where all you have to do is equip them.
Likewise, it takes more skill to counter a proc set. You have to identify the set/build the other player is using, know what action to take (Do you block? Dodgeroll? Adjust your distance or positioning? Use a heal/shield/clense? Something else?), and adjust your strategy accordingly in order to defend against them. Against someone wearing buff sets you just... fight however you normally would, and hope you come out on top.
Given all that, I've always found it strange that some PvPers are so vocal in complaining about proc sets. I guess it's just easier to claim the other guy's build is OP than admit you might have room to improve.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PvP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc--and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy. As opposed to sets that just buff your stats, where all you have to do is equip them.
Likewise, it takes more skill to counter a proc set. You have to identify the set/build the other player is using, know what action to take (Do you block? Dodgeroll? Adjust your distance or positioning? Use a heal/shield/clense? Something else?), and adjust your strategy accordingly in order to defend against them. Against someone wearing buff sets you just... fight however you normally would, and hope you come out on top.
Given all that, I've always found it strange that some PvPers are so vocal in complaining about proc sets. I guess it's just easier to claim the other guy's build is OP than admit you might have room to improve.
ZoS should have not have gotten rid of the LOL button.
When was the last time you read what Earthgore does? Since when does activating a proc when "dealing direct damage" take skill?
People are vocal about these sets because many of them perform powerful functions without any input or even much thought from the player using them. At the heart of these games, many players would prefer to be active participants in using their own abilities as part of a strategy to defeat their opponent(s). Powerful proc sets play the game for the players.
That being said, I'm afraid the train long since departed on the "skillful" gameplay that for a brief moment was ESO PvP. Any ability or distinctive mechanic players had from their classes that was remotely interesting have long been nerfed, homogenized, or outright removed from the game. Our sets are far more defining than our skills and players just blob around a few objectives in which players get a ridiculous amount of AP for, even if there is literally zero opposition.Edited by Joy_Division on July 17, 2020 11:03PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.7 -
MincVinyl✭✭✭✭✭I agree with most of this,
In terms of the crit resists, i cant say it favored lower skilled players....but just opens the door for newer players to get into pvp easier without a gear window. Skill isnt really affected in anyway. If anything me having the ability to run a more efficient trait over the next guy helps me more.
Zos's view on healing comes from lack of pvp knowledge. Much like how they havent been able to figure out the server load issue.
1. Cross healing out of groups is an issue. (40+ players able to heal each other...cant imagine why the server has issues)
2. Utility sets going out of group are an issue (some sets are changing this patch to work only on groups....again cant imagine why the servers have issues).
3. Over time effects stacking are an issue (remember when a 50 man group couldnt stack 50 rapid regens on someone.....ugh a third time, cant imagine why the servers have issues)
4. Mass CC in available with little counterplay options (snare/root immunity could be doubled in duration, more sources)
5. Ap is too lucrative for mass pvdooring (could make incentives for guilds taking keeps to gain ap from campaign rewards based on what they contribute. Make resources worth exponentially more based on the amount of seige/counterseige on the keep. Remove destroyable bridges/gates and make transit lines between the outposts/towns and trikeeps instead of gates to edge keeps.
6. The community has been annoyed at procs since the old days.....pvp could easily have something added to battlespirit if zos didnt want to change sets. The same *** happens everytime we get into a proc/dot meta. People get pissed at dying to mechanics that dont require skill, dots/procs get nerfed....then we all of a sudden are in a "tank" meta where people cant kill anything. Tbh the "tank" meta complaints are just because 90% of the players now are terrible at burst. PvP has become pve rotations with maybe a small ult burst rotation. This is why you see people angry at the old magsorc players.....their damage comes from timing abilities together to get burst, and this is hard to digest for most people these days apparently.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PVP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc, and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy--as opposed to sets like New Moon Acolyte where all you have to do is equip them.SavageChain wrote: »During the last patches (months and even years) ZOS tried to make this game more and more casual friendly to please a big, but maybe also short living population of players. There were several tries to lower the ceiling and raise the floor for PvE to the state of really simple input of a player can result in decent performance (such as dps for example). Also PvP was hit with several changes, which mostly benefited the larger population of newer and less experienced players.
In greymoor we have seen changes to critical resistance, such as lower effects of the impenetrable trait (another change coming next patch) and a base critical resistance. Naturally this allows some bigger build diversity, since impenetrable is not the only single trait for PvP anymore, but also inexperienced players not having fundamental knowledge about this now have a natural critical resistance. Another change was the healing reduction of battle spirit from 50% to 60%, which in general is a 20% nerf to healing. A change hurting the solo individual outside of a group rather than the actual problem: cross healing between players and high stackable mitigation.
The PvP in this game has huge potential and everybody can (almost) play as they like. From solo PvP over small scale groups to ball groups or huge zergs, there is something for everybody, still there are differences of skill required to perform in these different kind of PvP content. Normally the smaller the group the more difficult the content gets. Still I would not call ball grouping unskilled. But in the end I want to talk about solo PvP or small scale PvP, which in my opinion requires the most or actual skill. Lots of people can agree, that this content got more and more difficult during the last years, since many changes hurt the solo PvPers more than the big groups.
A very big part playing into this too are damage proc sets (well not only damage proc sets, but coming to that later). Patches ago a good PvP build was about maximizing stats to make your skills as impactful as possible. But with the time more and more proc sets made it into the game, dealing damage or providing heals additionally to what you yourself actually did. The first sets mostly had dealing damage as a requirement to unleash their effect, they came with proc chances. Every patch we got more and more of these sets, meanwhile the proc conditions got a bit more tricky (well not really tricky, but more specific). Nowadays there are plenty of these sets around and building around them actually is more than viable. Even in cp builds including one or more proc sets are very oppressive and deal very good damage in PvP. Already one damage proc set can deal 10% to 20% of a players total dps in a 1v1 fight. Using multiple sets of this kind can contribute to more than 50% of your damage.
Especially in no cp PvP a lot of players let their proc sets deal the most part of their damage, zaan, grothdarr or maw of infernal are universally used on magicka and stamina builds as monster sets. Additionally, morkuldin, poisonous serpent and the new venomous smite are used very often. On the magicka site overwhelming surge, caluurion or ice furnace are seen frequently. The new mythic item malacaths band of brutality made the already high prevalence of damage proc sets even “worse” in no cp PvP. Not only no cp PvP is plagued by this, especially with malacaths band of brutality these proc sets are used more and more in cp PvP too.
The Patch v6.10 introduced another strong damage proc set and many old ones were reworked. A lot of these old sets’ damage was increased and many lost their proc chance. Following I listed some damage proc sets, which allow a base dps of 2000 damage more by almost zero player input (they may have a cooldown diminishing that value over a longer time, but many fights do no go on for a prolonged time):
Venomous Smite: 2241 damage per second for 10 seconds, 15 seconds cooldown
Red Mountain: 5918 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Unfathomable Darkness: 6020 damage every 3 seconds
Way of Fire: 4000 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Icy Conjuror: 21700 damage over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Pillar of Nirn: 4718 damage initially and 23590 over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Plague Slinger: 5095 damage every second for 5 seconds, 8 seconds cooldown
Poisonous Serpent: 3945 damage every 2 seconds (ok almost 2k dps)
Merciless Charge: 10032 damage over 5 seconds, no cooldown
and the new Unleashed Terror: 19728 damage over 5 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown.
Short example: Any stamina character can combine unleashed terror and merciless charge to apply a 29760 damage over 5 seconds to any enemy in stampedes AoE.
All those numbers by the way are the unbuffed numbers and even in no cp PvP are increased by damage done modifiers (like malacaths band of brutality or essence thief, etc).
All those sets alone deal quite oppressive damage on their own. Fighting somebody with only one of these sets can be frustrating and exhausting. If the enemy combines those sets with each other or with monster sets, it will get even worse. Now imagine fighting multiple opponents with those sets.
Well this all would not be that bad, if those sets had a difficult proc condition. On the current live server red mountain and way of fire have a rather small proc chance, therefore only builds using flurry for example can make the set work. But with the coming update many proc sets auto proc on any damage reapplying very easily without any further doing of the player. One player can use a 10 second dot together with the sets way of fire and red mountain and will get almost 10k additional damage on every second tick of this one dot. Merciless charge plus unleashed terror unleashes a 6k damage over time effect on everybody by using on skill. Especially this patch with the lower healing through battlespirit, where breath of life heals for 4-5k, matriarch for 5-6k, vigor ticks for 2k, these sets will deal obnoxious, in many cases unavoidable damage, by doing nothing.
This new update makes proccing powerful proc sets too easy resulting in massive free damage outside of the global cooldown. Many players are dissatisfied with this easiness to deal damage thanks to these changes. People are dissatisfied with those mechanics, they were dissatisfied during the last proc meta, they are dissatisfied in the current proc meta in no cp, they are dissatisfied in other games like WoW with the proc meta and will be dissatisfied in the next patch, if this goes through.
Well not only damage proc sets will be prevalent next patch, but also healing sets. Many sets like draugr’s heritage got their cooldown reduced, healing the player when falling low health, maybe saving their life, an easy survive mechanic with a new very short cooldown.
Many players feel bad about using proc sets, because in the end the sets do the job instead of yourself, they feel ashamed using them, because it is called cheese. It is unpleasant to fight against a proc set user, when you feel the enemies win is based on the sets and not his skill.
In conclusion:
The new update will reintroduce a proc set meta, since the proc conditions are mostly taken away from many sets. Applying the damage procs will be as easy as never before and will augment the damage output of inexperienced players a lot by zero player input. Same goes for healing, since many self heal sets will have a low cooldown saving lives again and again. These changes will motivate players to use these sets, allow lazy gameplay, inhibits players actually playing the game and letting their sets do the work. Skill will be meaningless in such a state of the game, since all you have to do is apply your sets damage. The more proc sets you have, the better you are, promoting people to not learn the game, to not improve. Meanwhile experienced players will be either overwhelmed by the incoming free damage or will go the same route abusing proc sets.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PvP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc--and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy. As opposed to sets that just buff your stats, where all you have to do is equip them.
Likewise, it takes more skill to counter a proc set. You have to identify the set/build the other player is using, know what action to take (Do you block? Dodgeroll? Adjust your distance or positioning? Use a heal/shield/clense? Something else?), and adjust your strategy accordingly in order to defend against them. Against someone wearing buff sets you just... fight however you normally would, and hope you come out on top.
Given all that, I've always found it strange that some PvPers are so vocal in complaining about proc sets. I guess it's just easier to claim the other guy's build is OP than admit you might have room to improve.
You think it is really that hard to run sets that just proc off light/heavy attacks?3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Except abilities cost resources and a gcd to use and are still weaker for the most part.
At this point I wonder if it would be better to let those sets add a sixth skill to your bar (that has proc conditions to be used and/or a cooldown), including costs and working within the gcd.
E: or simpler : make them pop up like a synergy when conditions are met.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on July 18, 2020 7:34AM0 -
labambao✭✭✭✭Bombard with bow procs pillar of nirn.
Swap to mael 2h and stampede to fight, proc mael + terror.
Dawnbreaker?
Also you can have mala ring or monster, up to you.
This sets are already 55k tt by their own.
Lets quick math, not strict numbers, but about.
Pillar of nirn is ~1k/sec
Vma 2h ~ 1k/sec
Terror ~ 1.7k/sec
So it's ~ 3.5k/sec free damage without mala or monster mask, that you can fit.Edited by labambao on July 18, 2020 9:12AM0 -
Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with most of this,
In terms of the crit resists, i cant say it favored lower skilled players....but just opens the door for newer players to get into pvp easier without a gear window. Skill isnt really affected in anyway. If anything me having the ability to run a more efficient trait over the next guy helps me more.
Zos's view on healing comes from lack of pvp knowledge. Much like how they havent been able to figure out the server load issue.
1. Cross healing out of groups is an issue. (40+ players able to heal each other...cant imagine why the server has issues)
2. Utility sets going out of group are an issue (some sets are changing this patch to work only on groups....again cant imagine why the servers have issues).
3. Over time effects stacking are an issue (remember when a 50 man group couldnt stack 50 rapid regens on someone.....ugh a third time, cant imagine why the servers have issues)
4. Mass CC in available with little counterplay options (snare/root immunity could be doubled in duration, more sources)
5. Ap is too lucrative for mass pvdooring (could make incentives for guilds taking keeps to gain ap from campaign rewards based on what they contribute. Make resources worth exponentially more based on the amount of seige/counterseige on the keep. Remove destroyable bridges/gates and make transit lines between the outposts/towns and trikeeps instead of gates to edge keeps.
6. The community has been annoyed at procs since the old days.....pvp could easily have something added to battlespirit if zos didnt want to change sets. The same *** happens everytime we get into a proc/dot meta. People get pissed at dying to mechanics that dont require skill, dots/procs get nerfed....then we all of a sudden are in a "tank" meta where people cant kill anything. Tbh the "tank" meta complaints are just because 90% of the players now are terrible at burst. PvP has become pve rotations with maybe a small ult burst rotation. This is why you see people angry at the old magsorc players.....their damage comes from timing abilities together to get burst, and this is hard to digest for most people these days apparently.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PVP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc, and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy--as opposed to sets like New Moon Acolyte where all you have to do is equip them.SavageChain wrote: »During the last patches (months and even years) ZOS tried to make this game more and more casual friendly to please a big, but maybe also short living population of players. There were several tries to lower the ceiling and raise the floor for PvE to the state of really simple input of a player can result in decent performance (such as dps for example). Also PvP was hit with several changes, which mostly benefited the larger population of newer and less experienced players.
In greymoor we have seen changes to critical resistance, such as lower effects of the impenetrable trait (another change coming next patch) and a base critical resistance. Naturally this allows some bigger build diversity, since impenetrable is not the only single trait for PvP anymore, but also inexperienced players not having fundamental knowledge about this now have a natural critical resistance. Another change was the healing reduction of battle spirit from 50% to 60%, which in general is a 20% nerf to healing. A change hurting the solo individual outside of a group rather than the actual problem: cross healing between players and high stackable mitigation.
The PvP in this game has huge potential and everybody can (almost) play as they like. From solo PvP over small scale groups to ball groups or huge zergs, there is something for everybody, still there are differences of skill required to perform in these different kind of PvP content. Normally the smaller the group the more difficult the content gets. Still I would not call ball grouping unskilled. But in the end I want to talk about solo PvP or small scale PvP, which in my opinion requires the most or actual skill. Lots of people can agree, that this content got more and more difficult during the last years, since many changes hurt the solo PvPers more than the big groups.
A very big part playing into this too are damage proc sets (well not only damage proc sets, but coming to that later). Patches ago a good PvP build was about maximizing stats to make your skills as impactful as possible. But with the time more and more proc sets made it into the game, dealing damage or providing heals additionally to what you yourself actually did. The first sets mostly had dealing damage as a requirement to unleash their effect, they came with proc chances. Every patch we got more and more of these sets, meanwhile the proc conditions got a bit more tricky (well not really tricky, but more specific). Nowadays there are plenty of these sets around and building around them actually is more than viable. Even in cp builds including one or more proc sets are very oppressive and deal very good damage in PvP. Already one damage proc set can deal 10% to 20% of a players total dps in a 1v1 fight. Using multiple sets of this kind can contribute to more than 50% of your damage.
Especially in no cp PvP a lot of players let their proc sets deal the most part of their damage, zaan, grothdarr or maw of infernal are universally used on magicka and stamina builds as monster sets. Additionally, morkuldin, poisonous serpent and the new venomous smite are used very often. On the magicka site overwhelming surge, caluurion or ice furnace are seen frequently. The new mythic item malacaths band of brutality made the already high prevalence of damage proc sets even “worse” in no cp PvP. Not only no cp PvP is plagued by this, especially with malacaths band of brutality these proc sets are used more and more in cp PvP too.
The Patch v6.10 introduced another strong damage proc set and many old ones were reworked. A lot of these old sets’ damage was increased and many lost their proc chance. Following I listed some damage proc sets, which allow a base dps of 2000 damage more by almost zero player input (they may have a cooldown diminishing that value over a longer time, but many fights do no go on for a prolonged time):
Venomous Smite: 2241 damage per second for 10 seconds, 15 seconds cooldown
Red Mountain: 5918 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Unfathomable Darkness: 6020 damage every 3 seconds
Way of Fire: 4000 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Icy Conjuror: 21700 damage over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Pillar of Nirn: 4718 damage initially and 23590 over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Plague Slinger: 5095 damage every second for 5 seconds, 8 seconds cooldown
Poisonous Serpent: 3945 damage every 2 seconds (ok almost 2k dps)
Merciless Charge: 10032 damage over 5 seconds, no cooldown
and the new Unleashed Terror: 19728 damage over 5 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown.
Short example: Any stamina character can combine unleashed terror and merciless charge to apply a 29760 damage over 5 seconds to any enemy in stampedes AoE.
All those numbers by the way are the unbuffed numbers and even in no cp PvP are increased by damage done modifiers (like malacaths band of brutality or essence thief, etc).
All those sets alone deal quite oppressive damage on their own. Fighting somebody with only one of these sets can be frustrating and exhausting. If the enemy combines those sets with each other or with monster sets, it will get even worse. Now imagine fighting multiple opponents with those sets.
Well this all would not be that bad, if those sets had a difficult proc condition. On the current live server red mountain and way of fire have a rather small proc chance, therefore only builds using flurry for example can make the set work. But with the coming update many proc sets auto proc on any damage reapplying very easily without any further doing of the player. One player can use a 10 second dot together with the sets way of fire and red mountain and will get almost 10k additional damage on every second tick of this one dot. Merciless charge plus unleashed terror unleashes a 6k damage over time effect on everybody by using on skill. Especially this patch with the lower healing through battlespirit, where breath of life heals for 4-5k, matriarch for 5-6k, vigor ticks for 2k, these sets will deal obnoxious, in many cases unavoidable damage, by doing nothing.
This new update makes proccing powerful proc sets too easy resulting in massive free damage outside of the global cooldown. Many players are dissatisfied with this easiness to deal damage thanks to these changes. People are dissatisfied with those mechanics, they were dissatisfied during the last proc meta, they are dissatisfied in the current proc meta in no cp, they are dissatisfied in other games like WoW with the proc meta and will be dissatisfied in the next patch, if this goes through.
Well not only damage proc sets will be prevalent next patch, but also healing sets. Many sets like draugr’s heritage got their cooldown reduced, healing the player when falling low health, maybe saving their life, an easy survive mechanic with a new very short cooldown.
Many players feel bad about using proc sets, because in the end the sets do the job instead of yourself, they feel ashamed using them, because it is called cheese. It is unpleasant to fight against a proc set user, when you feel the enemies win is based on the sets and not his skill.
In conclusion:
The new update will reintroduce a proc set meta, since the proc conditions are mostly taken away from many sets. Applying the damage procs will be as easy as never before and will augment the damage output of inexperienced players a lot by zero player input. Same goes for healing, since many self heal sets will have a low cooldown saving lives again and again. These changes will motivate players to use these sets, allow lazy gameplay, inhibits players actually playing the game and letting their sets do the work. Skill will be meaningless in such a state of the game, since all you have to do is apply your sets damage. The more proc sets you have, the better you are, promoting people to not learn the game, to not improve. Meanwhile experienced players will be either overwhelmed by the incoming free damage or will go the same route abusing proc sets.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PvP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc--and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy. As opposed to sets that just buff your stats, where all you have to do is equip them.
Likewise, it takes more skill to counter a proc set. You have to identify the set/build the other player is using, know what action to take (Do you block? Dodgeroll? Adjust your distance or positioning? Use a heal/shield/clense? Something else?), and adjust your strategy accordingly in order to defend against them. Against someone wearing buff sets you just... fight however you normally would, and hope you come out on top.
Given all that, I've always found it strange that some PvPers are so vocal in complaining about proc sets. I guess it's just easier to claim the other guy's build is OP than admit you might have room to improve.
Nice TED Talk there, but if you think that proc sets require more skill than straight damage sets then I suspect you are one of the people that stands to benefit the most from ZOS raising the skill floor to meet the ceiling.4 -
slicksteezin✭✭✭✭And yet none of this matters because PVP performance in ESO is... yep, still unplayable.2
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Rhaegar75✭✭✭✭✭I really don't like proc sets and I'm not keen on using them. I think the game should be balanced and I fear the changes in this patch are definitely going to tip the balance towards proc sets mania.
Personally, from a PvP prospective, I tend to give little values to deaths caused by FoTM proc sets. Skilled PvP is something else: there are some players that can destroy anyone even wearing a random combo of crappy sets...they are the top dogs0 -
Malprave✭✭✭✭19k in five seconds? You nI just love that the argument made by the title suggests pvp is full of skilled gameplay except for proc sets lol. Most fights are groups zerging down smaller numbers, which isn't skillfull unless you are the smaller group (usually). Or attacking someone without them knowing a fight is going on as you come out of stealth (alls fair in love and war and all that sure, but still not really skill) and then running away if you fail. Or using some other cheese build that "doesn't count" b/c it's not a proc, etc. Or just relying on fighting players that are new or even pvers there b/c of an event where it's like MJ playing 1v5 vs. a bunch of middle school kids. Or small groups of 4-5 guys all in group and comms not admitted to themselves that fighting another same size group of players not in group or comms is just 5v1 at a time as you go through the pugs. Or getting the hammer or emp so you can be overtuned and kill a bunch of stuff even easier, etc.
Great post. Yeah I love the idea that these proc sets are not ok but these same good folks have no problem ganking poor noobs senseless as they attack from stealth and if they should come upon a real player that is able to turn the tables on them they simply cloak and reset the fight. They also don’t seem to have any problems with standing off and doing incredible damage from range and if somebody gets close and may have a chance of killing them they smash them flat with streak and slip away.
Lethal arrow? That’s not completely malignant or anything.
But I know the good people of these forums would never play like that so I agree with them, something should be done about these terrible proc sets!2 -
Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭@Joy_Division
Got anything to say that isn't a strawman? I never said proc sets take skill to activate, I said they take skill to use effectively. You went to the trouble of bolding that sentence so it's not like you missed it.
@MincVinyl
Same as above, though at least you didn't highlight my argument before misrepresenting it. Also, sorry for quoting you in my previous post. It was meant as a response to the OP, not you, but it looks like something screwed up and re-inserted a draft at the top of my post that I thought I had deleted.Nice TED Talk there, but if you think that proc sets require more skill than straight damage sets then I suspect you are one of the people that stands to benefit the most from ZOS raising the skill floor to meet the ceiling.
Doesn't everyone? Ivory tower game design is bad. Narrowing the gap between "BiS" gear and everything else provides more options to players and makes combat more dependent on individual skill than what they're wearing. As for "raising the floor to meet the ceiling", I'll assume that was just hyperbole.Edited by Mr_Wolfe on July 18, 2020 5:23PM1 -
xXMeowMeowXx✭✭✭✭✭
✭They lowered the ceiling till we are at the bottom of the ocean, smh.
I do find 1 v Xing should be included because it is progressing in PvP. It didn’t happen overnight and should be something to push towards, not given.0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭@Joy_Division
Got anything to say that isn't a strawman? I never said proc sets take skill to activate, I said they take skill to use effectively. You went to the trouble of bolding that sentence so it's not like you missed it.
@MincVinyl
Same as above, though at least you didn't highlight my argument before misrepresenting it. Also, sorry for quoting you in my previous post. It was meant as a response to the OP, not you, but it looks like something screwed up and re-inserted a draft at the top of my post that I thought I had deleted.Nice TED Talk there, but if you think that proc sets require more skill than straight damage sets then I suspect you are one of the people that stands to benefit the most from ZOS raising the skill floor to meet the ceiling.
Doesn't everyone? Ivory tower game design is bad. Narrowing the gap between "BiS" gear and everything else provides more options to players and makes combat more dependent on individual skill than what they're wearing. As for "raising the floor to meet the ceiling", I'll assume that was just hyperbole.
Well I wish it would need skill to use proc sets effectively, but that may actually only be true for one or two proc sets.
Most of the proc sets on live have a proc chance and their proc is not really controlled, therefore you can not play around the proc. A few exception might be proc sets with a specific requirement like applying a minor debuff (icy conjuror), a crit (caluurion) or several light attacks like kjalnaar. Those procs are somewhat controllable, but using them skillfully means making them hit by stunning the enemy at the right moment. The same applies to delayed burst abilities or heavy hitting abilities like frags or flame lash. The delayed ones mirror those proc sets in a way, since you can stun and deal damage at the same time. But that actually is a fundamental PvP mechanic and basic knowledge, not that skillful in the end. To some degrees a few (very few) proc sets can be used more effectively depending on the skiller. Still most of the sets do not proc in a controlled way and therefore deal uncontrolled, but constant damage. It doesnt tale skill to fire the sets nor does it take skill to land it, since you cant control when the proc happens.
The main problem here is, that many proc sets lose their proc chance or proc requirements. Therefore they fire constantly in a fight, being uncontrolled free damage. One of the sets actually being able to use effectively (caluurion), loses its crit requirement and will also proc on cooldown.
Therefore the next update brings 95% of proc sets into a state, where they deal damage without player‘s doing and without any efective usage. Thats pretty much what non-skilled gameplay is. It promotis lazy and skillles gameplay.
The original statement looks at that from the perspective of the user of the proc set. As opponent of a proc set user you may have a challenge to figure out the proc sets mechanic and to counter it. But after you know, its just a mechanic you play similar to a mechanic in PvE. Its a short term challenge for the opponent if the set actually is counterable, but many of the these proc sets do not even have a counter. In those cases its just frustrating.
Therefore you are right in a few specific cases with your statement that using proc sets requires skill. But in most cases you are just wrong.
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Mr_Wolfe✭✭✭SavageChain wrote: »Well I wish it would need skill to use proc sets effectively, but that may actually only be true for one or two proc sets.
Most of the proc sets on live have a proc chance and their proc is not really controlled, therefore you can not play around the proc. A few exception might be proc sets with a specific requirement like applying a minor debuff (icy conjuror), a crit (caluurion) or several light attacks like kjalnaar. Those procs are somewhat controllable, but using them skillfully means making them hit by stunning the enemy at the right moment. The same applies to delayed burst abilities or heavy hitting abilities like frags or flame lash. The delayed ones mirror those proc sets in a way, since you can stun and deal damage at the same time. But that actually is a fundamental PvP mechanic and basic knowledge, not that skillful in the end. To some degrees a few (very few) proc sets can be used more effectively depending on the skiller. Still most of the sets do not proc in a controlled way and therefore deal uncontrolled, but constant damage. It doesnt tale skill to fire the sets nor does it take skill to land it, since you cant control when the proc happens.
You're definitely right that the random proc chance makes them more difficult to use in a deliberate and skillful way. Fortunately one of the main changes ZOS is proposing is to remove the random proc chance and make these sets activate reliably whenever their triggering condition is met and they're off cooldown. This should increase the potential for skillful play in PvP, since both players using proc sets and players defending against them will be better able to predict when they will fire.SavageChain wrote: »The main problem here is, that many proc sets lose their proc chance or proc requirements. Therefore they fire constantly in a fight, being uncontrolled free damage. One of the sets actually being able to use effectively (caluurion), loses its crit requirement and will also proc on cooldown.
Therefore the next update brings 95% of proc sets into a state, where they deal damage without player‘s doing and without any efective usage. Thats pretty much what non-skilled gameplay is. It promotis lazy and skillles gameplay.
The original statement looks at that from the perspective of the user of the proc set. As opponent of a proc set user you may have a challenge to figure out the proc sets mechanic and to counter it. But after you know, its just a mechanic you play similar to a mechanic in PvE. Its a short term challenge for the opponent if the set actually is counterable, but many of the these proc sets do not even have a counter. In those cases its just frustrating.
Therefore you are right in a few specific cases with your statement that using proc sets requires skill. But in most cases you are just wrong.
Um...
So you just got done arguing that the random proc chance limits skilled play by making them unpredictable, resulting in "uncontrolled, but constant damage."
And now you're saying that getting rid of the random proc chance limits skilled play and results in "uncontrolled free damage."
Maybe you should work on having a consistent argument before weighing in and calling other people wrong.
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Langeston✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, not at all.Nice TED Talk there, but if you think that proc sets require more skill than straight damage sets then I suspect you are one of the people that stands to benefit the most from ZOS raising the skill floor to meet the ceiling.
Doesn't everyone? Ivory tower game design is bad. Narrowing the gap between "BiS" gear and everything else provides more options to players and makes combat more dependent on individual skill than what they're wearing. As for "raising the floor to meet the ceiling", I'll assume that was just hyperbole.
I came up with a stam build last night on the PTS that does a total of 121k damage (before Battle Spirit) from only TWO (easy to land) abilities — for the first 5 seconds you're getting hit by 18.35k per tick. (Higher actually, because some of the damage can crit, and I am not including crits in the tooltip.)
Please explain to me how this build requiring only 2 skills "makes combat more dependent on individual skill" when my magblade's convoluted 6 ability burst rotation does less damage and can be completely negated by a simple dodge roll.
[edit] And no, "raising the skill floor to meet the ceiling" was not hyperbole. That is clearly ZOS's goal here.Edited by Langeston on July 19, 2020 2:43AM0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭SavageChain wrote: »Well I wish it would need skill to use proc sets effectively, but that may actually only be true for one or two proc sets.
Most of the proc sets on live have a proc chance and their proc is not really controlled, therefore you can not play around the proc. A few exception might be proc sets with a specific requirement like applying a minor debuff (icy conjuror), a crit (caluurion) or several light attacks like kjalnaar. Those procs are somewhat controllable, but using them skillfully means making them hit by stunning the enemy at the right moment. The same applies to delayed burst abilities or heavy hitting abilities like frags or flame lash. The delayed ones mirror those proc sets in a way, since you can stun and deal damage at the same time. But that actually is a fundamental PvP mechanic and basic knowledge, not that skillful in the end. To some degrees a few (very few) proc sets can be used more effectively depending on the skiller. Still most of the sets do not proc in a controlled way and therefore deal uncontrolled, but constant damage. It doesnt tale skill to fire the sets nor does it take skill to land it, since you cant control when the proc happens.
You're definitely right that the random proc chance makes them more difficult to use in a deliberate and skillful way. Fortunately one of the main changes ZOS is proposing is to remove the random proc chance and make these sets activate reliably whenever their triggering condition is met and they're off cooldown. This should increase the potential for skillful play in PvP, since both players using proc sets and players defending against them will be better able to predict when they will fire.SavageChain wrote: »The main problem here is, that many proc sets lose their proc chance or proc requirements. Therefore they fire constantly in a fight, being uncontrolled free damage. One of the sets actually being able to use effectively (caluurion), loses its crit requirement and will also proc on cooldown.
Therefore the next update brings 95% of proc sets into a state, where they deal damage without player‘s doing and without any efective usage. Thats pretty much what non-skilled gameplay is. It promotis lazy and skillles gameplay.
The original statement looks at that from the perspective of the user of the proc set. As opponent of a proc set user you may have a challenge to figure out the proc sets mechanic and to counter it. But after you know, its just a mechanic you play similar to a mechanic in PvE. Its a short term challenge for the opponent if the set actually is counterable, but many of the these proc sets do not even have a counter. In those cases its just frustrating.
Therefore you are right in a few specific cases with your statement that using proc sets requires skill. But in most cases you are just wrong.
Um...
So you just got done arguing that the random proc chance limits skilled play by making them unpredictable, resulting in "uncontrolled, but constant damage."
And now you're saying that getting rid of the random proc chance limits skilled play and results in "uncontrolled free damage."
Maybe you should work on having a consistent argument before weighing in and calling other people wrong.
If one of those two options actually would be skillfull and controlled, then you would be right. But one of them being bad, uncontrolled and free doesnt mean the other is different. Therefore my argument is consistent, since both are the wrong mechanic to make proc sets skillfull to use.
Lets make an example for you to understand:
The old red mountain set had a proc chance of 10% when dealing damage with a weapon. The chance is so small, that you can not really make it proc really often nor controlled. Therefore the only way to use the set is to maximize the chance to proc it by using rapid strikes or force pulse. You just tried to make the proc happen as often as possible. Same with the set way of fire, you just made it proc as often as possible, but nothing of this is tied to being skilled. Also winterborn had a 8% proc chance on ice damage and was only viable with as many ice damage sources as possible, but there was no skill involved by trying to stack ice damage.
The new version of all three sets procs as soon as you deal (ice-) damage on cooldown. Apply one dot and the set will proc on cooldown. Every 2 seconds in the case of red mountain and way of fire, so its just a free other dots basically and cant be used skillfully.
Both ways, having a small proc chance and trying to maximaze this chance, but also getting the proc off cooldown, leads to making the procs happen as much as possible. It doesn require skill to maximize the chance nor to apply it ok cooldown by every damage you deal. To make proc sets require skill, they need a specific proc condition and a bigger time window without the proc. The proc needs to be predictable, so that you can combo it with a stun or burst. A few examples would be caluurion due to its slow projectile, controlled proc by nightblades cloak mechanic and burst potential, khalnaar due to its predictable way to proc it or doleymish due to its very strict proc condition. Mechanics as these three sets can make proc sets being used wisely and effective, if you pair the controlled proc with burst or stuns.
But ZOS removed proc chances and made proc sets proccing just on anything, even caluurion will proc just on cooldown. As said old and new way of proc sets are wrong and do not require skill to use. A third way of introducing strict proc mechanics would be perfect, so that both user and opponent can predict and react, pair the proc with stun and burst, or evade it with dodge and block.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree with most of this,
In terms of the crit resists, i cant say it favored lower skilled players....but just opens the door for newer players to get into pvp easier without a gear window. Skill isnt really affected in anyway. If anything me having the ability to run a more efficient trait over the next guy helps me more.
Zos's view on healing comes from lack of pvp knowledge. Much like how they havent been able to figure out the server load issue.
1. Cross healing out of groups is an issue. (40+ players able to heal each other...cant imagine why the server has issues)
2. Utility sets going out of group are an issue (some sets are changing this patch to work only on groups....again cant imagine why the servers have issues).
3. Over time effects stacking are an issue (remember when a 50 man group couldnt stack 50 rapid regens on someone.....ugh a third time, cant imagine why the servers have issues)
4. Mass CC in available with little counterplay options (snare/root immunity could be doubled in duration, more sources)
5. Ap is too lucrative for mass pvdooring (could make incentives for guilds taking keeps to gain ap from campaign rewards based on what they contribute. Make resources worth exponentially more based on the amount of seige/counterseige on the keep. Remove destroyable bridges/gates and make transit lines between the outposts/towns and trikeeps instead of gates to edge keeps.
6. The community has been annoyed at procs since the old days.....pvp could easily have something added to battlespirit if zos didnt want to change sets. The same *** happens everytime we get into a proc/dot meta. People get pissed at dying to mechanics that dont require skill, dots/procs get nerfed....then we all of a sudden are in a "tank" meta where people cant kill anything. Tbh the "tank" meta complaints are just because 90% of the players now are terrible at burst. PvP has become pve rotations with maybe a small ult burst rotation. This is why you see people angry at the old magsorc players.....their damage comes from timing abilities together to get burst, and this is hard to digest for most people these days apparently.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PVP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc, and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy--as opposed to sets like New Moon Acolyte where all you have to do is equip them.SavageChain wrote: »During the last patches (months and even years) ZOS tried to make this game more and more casual friendly to please a big, but maybe also short living population of players. There were several tries to lower the ceiling and raise the floor for PvE to the state of really simple input of a player can result in decent performance (such as dps for example). Also PvP was hit with several changes, which mostly benefited the larger population of newer and less experienced players.
In greymoor we have seen changes to critical resistance, such as lower effects of the impenetrable trait (another change coming next patch) and a base critical resistance. Naturally this allows some bigger build diversity, since impenetrable is not the only single trait for PvP anymore, but also inexperienced players not having fundamental knowledge about this now have a natural critical resistance. Another change was the healing reduction of battle spirit from 50% to 60%, which in general is a 20% nerf to healing. A change hurting the solo individual outside of a group rather than the actual problem: cross healing between players and high stackable mitigation.
The PvP in this game has huge potential and everybody can (almost) play as they like. From solo PvP over small scale groups to ball groups or huge zergs, there is something for everybody, still there are differences of skill required to perform in these different kind of PvP content. Normally the smaller the group the more difficult the content gets. Still I would not call ball grouping unskilled. But in the end I want to talk about solo PvP or small scale PvP, which in my opinion requires the most or actual skill. Lots of people can agree, that this content got more and more difficult during the last years, since many changes hurt the solo PvPers more than the big groups.
A very big part playing into this too are damage proc sets (well not only damage proc sets, but coming to that later). Patches ago a good PvP build was about maximizing stats to make your skills as impactful as possible. But with the time more and more proc sets made it into the game, dealing damage or providing heals additionally to what you yourself actually did. The first sets mostly had dealing damage as a requirement to unleash their effect, they came with proc chances. Every patch we got more and more of these sets, meanwhile the proc conditions got a bit more tricky (well not really tricky, but more specific). Nowadays there are plenty of these sets around and building around them actually is more than viable. Even in cp builds including one or more proc sets are very oppressive and deal very good damage in PvP. Already one damage proc set can deal 10% to 20% of a players total dps in a 1v1 fight. Using multiple sets of this kind can contribute to more than 50% of your damage.
Especially in no cp PvP a lot of players let their proc sets deal the most part of their damage, zaan, grothdarr or maw of infernal are universally used on magicka and stamina builds as monster sets. Additionally, morkuldin, poisonous serpent and the new venomous smite are used very often. On the magicka site overwhelming surge, caluurion or ice furnace are seen frequently. The new mythic item malacaths band of brutality made the already high prevalence of damage proc sets even “worse” in no cp PvP. Not only no cp PvP is plagued by this, especially with malacaths band of brutality these proc sets are used more and more in cp PvP too.
The Patch v6.10 introduced another strong damage proc set and many old ones were reworked. A lot of these old sets’ damage was increased and many lost their proc chance. Following I listed some damage proc sets, which allow a base dps of 2000 damage more by almost zero player input (they may have a cooldown diminishing that value over a longer time, but many fights do no go on for a prolonged time):
Venomous Smite: 2241 damage per second for 10 seconds, 15 seconds cooldown
Red Mountain: 5918 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Unfathomable Darkness: 6020 damage every 3 seconds
Way of Fire: 4000 damage instantly, 2 seconds cooldown
Icy Conjuror: 21700 damage over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Pillar of Nirn: 4718 damage initially and 23590 over 10 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown
Plague Slinger: 5095 damage every second for 5 seconds, 8 seconds cooldown
Poisonous Serpent: 3945 damage every 2 seconds (ok almost 2k dps)
Merciless Charge: 10032 damage over 5 seconds, no cooldown
and the new Unleashed Terror: 19728 damage over 5 seconds, 10 seconds cooldown.
Short example: Any stamina character can combine unleashed terror and merciless charge to apply a 29760 damage over 5 seconds to any enemy in stampedes AoE.
All those numbers by the way are the unbuffed numbers and even in no cp PvP are increased by damage done modifiers (like malacaths band of brutality or essence thief, etc).
All those sets alone deal quite oppressive damage on their own. Fighting somebody with only one of these sets can be frustrating and exhausting. If the enemy combines those sets with each other or with monster sets, it will get even worse. Now imagine fighting multiple opponents with those sets.
Well this all would not be that bad, if those sets had a difficult proc condition. On the current live server red mountain and way of fire have a rather small proc chance, therefore only builds using flurry for example can make the set work. But with the coming update many proc sets auto proc on any damage reapplying very easily without any further doing of the player. One player can use a 10 second dot together with the sets way of fire and red mountain and will get almost 10k additional damage on every second tick of this one dot. Merciless charge plus unleashed terror unleashes a 6k damage over time effect on everybody by using on skill. Especially this patch with the lower healing through battlespirit, where breath of life heals for 4-5k, matriarch for 5-6k, vigor ticks for 2k, these sets will deal obnoxious, in many cases unavoidable damage, by doing nothing.
This new update makes proccing powerful proc sets too easy resulting in massive free damage outside of the global cooldown. Many players are dissatisfied with this easiness to deal damage thanks to these changes. People are dissatisfied with those mechanics, they were dissatisfied during the last proc meta, they are dissatisfied in the current proc meta in no cp, they are dissatisfied in other games like WoW with the proc meta and will be dissatisfied in the next patch, if this goes through.
Well not only damage proc sets will be prevalent next patch, but also healing sets. Many sets like draugr’s heritage got their cooldown reduced, healing the player when falling low health, maybe saving their life, an easy survive mechanic with a new very short cooldown.
Many players feel bad about using proc sets, because in the end the sets do the job instead of yourself, they feel ashamed using them, because it is called cheese. It is unpleasant to fight against a proc set user, when you feel the enemies win is based on the sets and not his skill.
In conclusion:
The new update will reintroduce a proc set meta, since the proc conditions are mostly taken away from many sets. Applying the damage procs will be as easy as never before and will augment the damage output of inexperienced players a lot by zero player input. Same goes for healing, since many self heal sets will have a low cooldown saving lives again and again. These changes will motivate players to use these sets, allow lazy gameplay, inhibits players actually playing the game and letting their sets do the work. Skill will be meaningless in such a state of the game, since all you have to do is apply your sets damage. The more proc sets you have, the better you are, promoting people to not learn the game, to not improve. Meanwhile experienced players will be either overwhelmed by the incoming free damage or will go the same route abusing proc sets.
Nice TED Talk there, but you're mistaken if you think proc sets remove skill from PvP. They require skill to use effectively just like anything else. In fact, I'd argure they require more skill than sets that just give passive always-on stat boosts. You have to consider the proc conditions, timing, range, area, damage type or effect, etc--and actively work the proc into your combo/strategy. As opposed to sets that just buff your stats, where all you have to do is equip them.
Likewise, it takes more skill to counter a proc set. You have to identify the set/build the other player is using, know what action to take (Do you block? Dodgeroll? Adjust your distance or positioning? Use a heal/shield/clense? Something else?), and adjust your strategy accordingly in order to defend against them. Against someone wearing buff sets you just... fight however you normally would, and hope you come out on top.
Given all that, I've always found it strange that some PvPers are so vocal in complaining about proc sets. I guess it's just easier to claim the other guy's build is OP than admit you might have room to improve.
If "dealing damage" with a random ability or light attack requires skill for you then ur standards for what player skill means are incredibly low.3 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭what they have done with this patch is hand the ball groups more damageMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike1
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nckg84✭✭✭I think we can all agree that ZOS is taking this game in a direction that will have any competitive gameplay removed. With it all the competitive people will leave also. What will be left? A mediocre game with a mediocre player base.
ZOS has more then proven themselfs that they have no clue what there doing with regards to balancing. For example take streak on sorcs it's a stupid skill but change it and you completly obliterate a class in pvp and open up a whole box of problems they dont want or are cable of to adress.1 -
e-rwan✭✭If "dealing damage" with a random ability or light attack requires skill for you then ur standards for what player skill means are incredibly low.
Dealing damage is not what require skills and damage alone wont help.
You have to time your damage, keep your enemy in range, debuff, snare, stun, stay allive yourself. Damage proc set only procure damage and none of the latest.Edited by e-rwan on July 19, 2020 1:11PM1 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It's not just Streak, the same is true for pretty much every single "class defining ability" on any class.ZOS has more then proven themselfs that they have no clue what there doing with regards to balancing. For example take streak on sorcs it's a stupid skill but change it and you completly obliterate a class in pvp and open up a whole box of problems they dont want or are cable of to adress.
DK Wings are one of the more egregious examples that come to mind here.
The old version was clearly overperforming in some situations while underperforming in others, so they instead destroyed it completely and made it not worth using in PvP anymore.
This is the same end result of any ZOS attempts at "balancing". They don't know how (or can't be bothered) to balance things properly, so instead they just destroy things by nerfing them into Oblivion.
Or, as was the case with NB fear for example, they destroyed that part of class identity by giving everyone access to a better version of it.0 -
nckg84✭✭✭If "dealing damage" with a random ability or light attack requires skill for you then ur standards for what player skill means are incredibly low.
Dealing damage is not what require skills and damage alone wont help.
You have to time your damage, keep your enemy in range, debuff, snare, stun, stay allive yourself. Damage proc set only procure damage and none of the latest.
You are by far overestimating the pvp playerbase. There are only a handfull if none that use proc sets with actual logic and skill. A potato trash player should not be able to kill a skilled player. Currently they have that change if the skilled player makes a mistake.0 -
nckg84✭✭✭
It's not just Streak, the same is true for pretty much every single "class defining ability" on any class.ZOS has more then proven themselfs that they have no clue what there doing with regards to balancing. For example take streak on sorcs it's a stupid skill but change it and you completly obliterate a class in pvp and open up a whole box of problems they dont want or are cable of to adress.
DK Wings are one of the more egregious examples that come to mind here.
The old version was clearly overperforming in some situations while underperforming in others, so they instead destroyed it completely and made it not worth using in PvP anymore.
This is the same end result of any ZOS attempts at "balancing". They don't know how (or can't be bothered) to balance things properly, so instead they just destroy things by nerfing them into Oblivion.
Or, as was the case with NB fear for example, they destroyed that part of class identity by giving everyone access to a better version of it.
I've been playing since launch and i'm really starting to believe that they just don't have any good pvp oriented employees with talent. I'm believing that this is the cause of it all.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If "dealing damage" with a random ability or light attack requires skill for you then ur standards for what player skill means are incredibly low.
Dealing damage is not what require skills and damage alone wont help.
You have to time your damage, keep your enemy in range, debuff, snare, stun, stay allive yourself. Damage proc set only procure damage and none of the latest.
No you dont. What you explain is the best possible way to use them. That doesnt mean they are not effective if they are not used this way. Im sorry but u are not going to convince anyone that using ur gap closer to unleash a 30k+ unbuffed tooltip dot isnt effective or that it requires skill.0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭
It's not just Streak, the same is true for pretty much every single "class defining ability" on any class.ZOS has more then proven themselfs that they have no clue what there doing with regards to balancing. For example take streak on sorcs it's a stupid skill but change it and you completly obliterate a class in pvp and open up a whole box of problems they dont want or are cable of to adress.
DK Wings are one of the more egregious examples that come to mind here.
The old version was clearly overperforming in some situations while underperforming in others, so they instead destroyed it completely and made it not worth using in PvP anymore.
This is the same end result of any ZOS attempts at "balancing". They don't know how (or can't be bothered) to balance things properly, so instead they just destroy things by nerfing them into Oblivion.
Or, as was the case with NB fear for example, they destroyed that part of class identity by giving everyone access to a better version of it.
I've been playing since launch and i'm really starting to believe that they just don't have any good pvp oriented employees with talent. I'm believing that this is the cause of it all.
Well i remember some of them playing stamnightblades (lucky guy) or staminawardens. But Rich lambert is famous for being a stamplar main and he used dual wield/resto build at some point without major brutality.
I dont have much trust into the PvP experience of the devs themselves, but I hope the class reps mainly focussing on PvP give hard critics on these proc set changes.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SavageChain wrote: »
It's not just Streak, the same is true for pretty much every single "class defining ability" on any class.ZOS has more then proven themselfs that they have no clue what there doing with regards to balancing. For example take streak on sorcs it's a stupid skill but change it and you completly obliterate a class in pvp and open up a whole box of problems they dont want or are cable of to adress.
DK Wings are one of the more egregious examples that come to mind here.
The old version was clearly overperforming in some situations while underperforming in others, so they instead destroyed it completely and made it not worth using in PvP anymore.
This is the same end result of any ZOS attempts at "balancing". They don't know how (or can't be bothered) to balance things properly, so instead they just destroy things by nerfing them into Oblivion.
Or, as was the case with NB fear for example, they destroyed that part of class identity by giving everyone access to a better version of it.
I've been playing since launch and i'm really starting to believe that they just don't have any good pvp oriented employees with talent. I'm believing that this is the cause of it all.
Well i remember some of them playing stamnightblades (lucky guy) or staminawardens. But Rich lambert is famous for being a stamplar main and he used dual wield/resto build at some point without major brutality.
I dont have much trust into the PvP experience of the devs themselves, but I hope the class reps mainly focussing on PvP give hard critics on these proc set changes.
Does the class rep system even exist still? If it does; it really felt like they traded knowledgeable players for yes men. I certainly haven't noticed their presenceEdited by technohic on July 20, 2020 11:47AM1
