PvP - Removal of skilled Gameplay

FirmamentOfStars

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Have you tried out PvP on the PTS? Battlegrounds, Cyro, dueling? How is the proc set meta in actuality, both to play OR to play against?

While you make a lot of potentially good points, there's also a lot of hypothetical doom-and-gloom while the PTS is currently open to test things out.

Yes I tested some of those in duels. Cyrodiil and bgs mostly are dead on the PTS, so duelling is pretty much the only way to actually test sets and changes in a PvP environement.

My numbers stated before are not just picked up like that, but ingame dps percentages. As stated before in cp most proc sets on the weaker end of sets contribute up to 10-15% of your dps against an enemy player. An example is overwhelming surge. Above mentioned sets almost have double the value of overwhelming, so their dps can reach more than 20% of a players total dps...one set alone and without malacaths band of brutality.

Krulzuk wrote: »

Using sets to your advantage can be quite a bit of fun. Example, I've had a blast putting Sentry on my bow ganker, for the purposes of hunting down other gankers and bombers. Lots of these new changes look like they'll inspire a ton of fun build ideas, especially in no-cp where good options as it is tend to be more limited. I'm excited!

It might be fun to use sets to counter some specific spec or playstyle, but most of the reworked sets just provide proc damage, healing or resources. Nothing to be excited about, since the sets provide afk or free damage/healing, which does not promote skill, just lazyness.

Zer0_CooL

@SavageChain @PeterUnlustig

Looking at new sets like unleashed terror, in combination with leap and 2h execute, seems like a total nobrainer with which even completely new players can get kills. Ofcorse people will die faster but thats on both sides. Overall i think it will even out the skill gap noticeably.

Though after all its just an impression by reading the patchnotes. Future will bring clarity.

The heal nerf was a failed aproach since the targeted issue -highly moveable, tanky, high burst damge builds- are mainly stamina, and the result overtuning heals scaling of weapon damage.

Aprocalypse..

FirmamentOfStars

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

@SavageChain @PeterUnlustig

Looking at new sets like unleashed terror, in combination with leap and 2h execute, seems like a total nobrainer with which even completely new players can get kills. Ofcorse people will die faster but thats on both sides. Overall i think it will even out the skill gap noticeably.

Though after all its just an impression by reading the patchnotes. Future will bring clarity.

The heal nerf was a failed aproach since the targeted issue -highly moveable, tanky, high burst damge builds- are mainly stamina, and the result overtuning heals scaling of weapon damage.

Aprocalypse..

Well i would say new players will have more damage thanks to these new and „old“ sets and therefore will have more impact on enemies. On the other hand they also will feel this proc set power on their own body and probably will die even faster as before. Meanwhile experienced players will have a harder time facing several enemies using these sets, since the „pros“ only can heal to a certain extent. 1vX will be harder and both sides can die faster, therefore its a power handed to new players to contribute more damage than usual. The exlerienced players will have almost same effort to kill the new players though. In the situation of a 1vX, the 1 will have more difficult time and the X has more power due to these sets, meanwhile in 1v1 the new player will be annihilated anyway. If both enemies though are on equal skill level, probably the amount of proc damage the builds have will decide the outcome.

Waffennacht

Hrm, seems pretty strong. Hopefully feedback gets listened to

Xologamer

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The new unleashed terror is insane, and its just ice conjuror all over again, nerfs incoming no doubt.

Blooddrinker, high wep damage, few other buffs, you could easily get that tooltip up to 40k+, approaching 10k every second. Funny but... yikes...

proc sets dont scale with weap dmg

FirmamentOfStars

Xologamer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The new unleashed terror is insane, and its just ice conjuror all over again, nerfs incoming no doubt.

Blooddrinker, high wep damage, few other buffs, you could easily get that tooltip up to 40k+, approaching 10k every second. Funny but... yikes...

proc sets dont scale with weap dmg

You are right, stats wont increase the tooltip, but damage done boni like malacath, essence thief, minor berserk and all cps do. A 40k tooltip might be possible.

relentless_turnip

I think if they reduce the proc sets doing 20k over 5 secs to 12-15k I would be ok with it. Probably more importantly malacath shouldn't effect proc sets. Just this change would be healthier.

I totally appreciate them trying to make PvP accessible to new players and I hope these buffs help simplify entry. At the moment I feel the proc sets are better than skills, this takes away build variety. That could otherwise be in a really good place.

To me this has a lot of the warning signs of scalebreaker. Where dots had similar tooltips over a greater time. there is no dot that matches the intense damage from these proc sets. There is 5 weeks of the PTS so I'm not worried... Yet...

Credit to the developers as balance wise this patch could be in a great place and they have got very good at listening to their players. I just hope they make a few more wise adjustments before this goes live. I was over the moon to see them looking at aoe damage and healing in regards to performance. This has always been obvious factor to us as the players for a long time. Now let's look at ball groups 😜

kathandira

This right here, will ruin anyone's day.

Unleashed Terror
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you cut your enemy, causing them to bleed for 5 seconds, dealing 19728 Physical Damage over the duration. This ability can occur once every 10 seconds per target.

Deadly Strike
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Increase the damage your Physical, Bleed, Poison, and Disease Damage over time and channeled abilities do by 20%.

Maelstrom Battleaxe (For more bleed)
(2 items) Dealing damage with Critical Charge causes enemies to bleed for 10032 Physical Damage over 5 seconds.

Malacath's Band of Brutality
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 25%. You cannot deal critical damage.

Just have to figure out how to make it all fit. I'm seeing that something would not be active on the back bar.

You may ask, why Deadly rather than Blood Drinker. It is simply a matter of crit. When using Malacath's Band, I find it best to minimize the amount of Weapon Critica set bonuses on the set.

technohic

The problem with proc sets is it doesnt JUST give free damage without needing skill. It's free damage without having to invest in it. My magplar, as an example; investing in 30k mag and 5k spell damage, I might get 1.5k-2k DPS from an active DOT. This new set is nearly 4k DPS and I can stack health, health recovery and armor, and just any of the perma tank stuff and keep the damage.

Actually; sounds like this 1 works on streak? Think I might go stam sorc, this set, full swift and steed, streak through people, negate and bombard away. Yeah, it wont be a killer but how fun is it to deal with? Make for great gameplay? Maybe duo with a bomb blade.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

I agree with most of the stuff you're saying for sure so I can support it.

On the other hand I think 1vX should be left out of the discussion for balance. Yes it takes skill to pull off but I'd argue that small scale/large scale is a more enjoyable, and relatable experience that can be balanced around.

SHOW

technohic wrote: »

The problem with proc sets is it doesnt JUST give free damage without needing skill. It's free damage without having to invest in it...

...This new set is nearly 4k DPS and I can stack health, health recovery and armor, and just any of the perma tank stuff and keep the damage

THIS is what people are missing with these changes.

Next patch will be the full TANK META plus the full PROC META at the SAME TIME.

This is shaping up to be the lowest IQ patch ever.

Might need to move on, and yes u can have my stuff lol

Daffen

kathandira wrote: »

This right here, will ruin anyone's day.

Unleashed Terror
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you cut your enemy, causing them to bleed for 5 seconds, dealing 19728 Physical Damage over the duration. This ability can occur once every 10 seconds per target.

Deadly Strike
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Increase the damage your Physical, Bleed, Poison, and Disease Damage over time and channeled abilities do by 20%.

Maelstrom Battleaxe (For more bleed)
(2 items) Dealing damage with Critical Charge causes enemies to bleed for 10032 Physical Damage over 5 seconds.

Malacath's Band of Brutality
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 25%. You cannot deal critical damage.

Just have to figure out how to make it all fit. I'm seeing that something would not be active on the back bar.

You may ask, why Deadly rather than Blood Drinker. It is simply a matter of crit. When using Malacath's Band, I find it best to minimize the amount of Weapon Critica set bonuses on the set.

I think if you use stampede morph, deadly on body, backbar unleashed terror, frontbar maelstrom 2h. You can charge backbar, wait untill you hit them to proc set, barswap and aoe from stampede will proc maelstrom.

kojou

They should just disable proc sets in PvP. Problem solved.

SHOW

kojou wrote: »

They should just disable proc sets in PvP. Problem solved.

I mean... maybe?

It is supposed to be PvP not PvSets...

At the very least, Malacath obviously shouldn't boost proc sets. There is supposed to be a "price for power" trade off (e.g. can't sprint in combat, take more damage etc).

Since proc sets can't crit anyway, they pay no price for Malacath, thus shouldn't get the benefit.

FirmamentOfStars

We can agree that there are several approaches to make the overall state of proc sets in PvP more enjoyable.

First point surely is malacaths banf not buffing it, but even without malacaths many sets still will deal too much damage. Therefore i would favor an additional debuff to damage proc sets included in battlespirit. Their damage will be already halfed as all damage in PvP, but i think an additional 25-35% reduction would be fair.

What do you guys think about that?

ecru

I honestly don't care too much about the proc sets, although I am annoyed with sets having more viable dots than class abilities. That's more of a problem with dots from abilities being pretty terrible in general though. That aside, it's the healing nerf that has made the biggest difference. Proc sets are whatever if healing is high enough to compensate but healing isn't high enough to compensate and a few people in a few sets will easily overwhelm good players because their healing just isn't enough to compensate for the free damage. There has to be some sort of balance and if it isn't balanced right now (healing, vigor in particular, is too weak IMO), it'll just be worse next patch.

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I think in short term it allows new people to get used to PvP without being frustrated 24/7. Therefore it might cause an increase in PvP population which is highly welcome.

Long term it seems to be boring to PvP with so much damage coming from proc sets. We already had a proc meta and the complaints were loud, very loud.

It's the same thing with the healing changes. It was meant to make it easier for new players to kill meta tanks.
But now the healing itself for new players is so low that just dotting newbies up is enough to kill them. I really don't think dying that easily is enjoyable, and it will only get worse with the new procalypse.

This is spot on. If I queue specifically for objective based BGs I usually get queued in against not so great players (random is always deathmatch with high mmr players for comparison), and I am absolutely destroying these players before they even have a chance to react. Their healing is just too weak to give them any sort of breathing room in the fight, they just melt and can't really do anything about it. Before the healing nerf these players had a decent change to stay alive for a bit longer because of bigger vigor ticks and such, but that just isn't the case now. Their 2k vigor isn't gonna save them, lol.

I would suggest bumping up individual self heals like Vigor and somehow keeping cross healing at current levels or reducing it. Cross healing was always the issue, not personal heals, although some individual class heals were definitely a bit much (necro, warden), and because of that, those classes are thriving while classes that can only rely on something like Vigor are suffering.

Mayrael

SavageChain wrote: »

We can agree that there are several approaches to make the overall state of proc sets in PvP more enjoyable.

First point surely is malacaths banf not buffing it, but even without malacaths many sets still will deal too much damage. Therefore i would favor an additional debuff to damage proc sets included in battlespirit. Their damage will be already halfed as all damage in PvP, but i think an additional 25-35% reduction would be fair.

What do you guys think about that?

I think that it would make some sets completly useless while those new proc sets would be still desired more for certain gameplay. I think numbers on those "reworked" proc sets should be lowered to reflect "no proc condition". ZOS used to balance sets based on their proc condition, what happened to this?

ecru

kathandira wrote: »

This right here, will ruin anyone's day.

Unleashed Terror
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) When you deal direct damage with a Charge, Leap, Teleport, or Pull ability, you cut your enemy, causing them to bleed for 5 seconds, dealing 19728 Physical Damage over the duration. This ability can occur once every 10 seconds per target.

Deadly Strike
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) Increase the damage your Physical, Bleed, Poison, and Disease Damage over time and channeled abilities do by 20%.

Maelstrom Battleaxe (For more bleed)
(2 items) Dealing damage with Critical Charge causes enemies to bleed for 10032 Physical Damage over 5 seconds.

Malacath's Band of Brutality
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 25%. You cannot deal critical damage.

Just have to figure out how to make it all fit. I'm seeing that something would not be active on the back bar.

You may ask, why Deadly rather than Blood Drinker. It is simply a matter of crit. When using Malacath's Band, I find it best to minimize the amount of Weapon Critica set bonuses on the set.

pillar of nirn is getting overlooked imo

Strider__Roshin

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The new unleashed terror is insane, and its just ice conjuror all over again, nerfs incoming no doubt.

Blooddrinker, high wep damage, few other buffs, you could easily get that tooltip up to 40k+, approaching 10k every second. Funny but... yikes...

Just looks like a Stam version of Caluurion. Not OP at all. Both sets should be deleted though.

UrbanMonk

You forgot Widowmaker.

Widowmaker: This set now deals 19728 damage over 5 seconds when it procs, rather than 7740 instantly.
Not hard at all to proc, and combined with the new set, poisons and crit rush, we are almost at 55k/5 sec without malacath or moster set.

As much as I love the build diversity, next patch will not be about that with these set changes, but who can stack proc better than the next guy.

FirmamentOfStars

Mayrael wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

We can agree that there are several approaches to make the overall state of proc sets in PvP more enjoyable.

First point surely is malacaths banf not buffing it, but even without malacaths many sets still will deal too much damage. Therefore i would favor an additional debuff to damage proc sets included in battlespirit. Their damage will be already halfed as all damage in PvP, but i think an additional 25-35% reduction would be fair.

What do you guys think about that?

I think that it would make some sets completly useless while those new proc sets would be still desired more for certain gameplay. I think numbers on those "reworked" proc sets should be lowered to reflect "no proc condition". ZOS used to balance sets based on their proc condition, what happened to this?

Well proc chances got removed from most of them. An example is red mountain, where both proc chance on weapon ability (damage from a weapon) was removed, but also damage reduced. Its a stronger version of way of the fire, but has counterplay with the delay of the volcano and being a projectile. On the other hand way of fire has no counterplay.

With the removal of proc conditions or proc chances, the actual player input was removed aswell. For some of these sets you actually had to build accordingly or use specific skills. Red mountain and way of fire both required pretty much rapid strikes as spammable, therefore a dual wield build. Winterborn required several sources of ice damage to make it proc frequently, now it procs everytime on cooldown. There is no building anymore to use a specific proc set, its just free damage handed to the player using the set.

e-rwan

Procs set are a not a bad thing if you have to build around to make them work, thinking of azureblight for exemple or even red mountain which dosent deals that much damage if you're not a DK and build skills around or a set like hunding will always be better.
as of unleashed terror, rather increase the cooldown than lower the damage, it's a potentially nice bomb/pressure set for stamina on large group.

pieratsos

SavageChain wrote: »

We can agree that there are several approaches to make the overall state of proc sets in PvP more enjoyable.

First point surely is malacaths banf not buffing it, but even without malacaths many sets still will deal too much damage. Therefore i would favor an additional debuff to damage proc sets included in battlespirit. Their damage will be already halfed as all damage in PvP, but i think an additional 25-35% reduction would be fair.

What do you guys think about that?

Yeah there is one easy way. Make them not proc at all in pvp. Problem solved.

robpr

technohic wrote: »

Actually; sounds like this 1 works on streak? Think I might go stam sorc, this set, full swift and steed, streak through people, negate and bombard away. Yeah, it wont be a killer but how fun is it to deal with? Make for great gameplay? Maybe duo with a bomb blade.

Streak is a "Blink" ability, not any of those because it dont require target. It doesn't trigger taunt on Tormentor.

Mayrael

SavageChain wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

We can agree that there are several approaches to make the overall state of proc sets in PvP more enjoyable.

First point surely is malacaths banf not buffing it, but even without malacaths many sets still will deal too much damage. Therefore i would favor an additional debuff to damage proc sets included in battlespirit. Their damage will be already halfed as all damage in PvP, but i think an additional 25-35% reduction would be fair.

What do you guys think about that?

I think that it would make some sets completly useless while those new proc sets would be still desired more for certain gameplay. I think numbers on those "reworked" proc sets should be lowered to reflect "no proc condition". ZOS used to balance sets based on their proc condition, what happened to this?

Well proc chances got removed from most of them. An example is red mountain, where both proc chance on weapon ability (damage from a weapon) was removed, but also damage reduced. Its a stronger version of way of the fire, but has counterplay with the delay of the volcano and being a projectile. On the other hand way of fire has no counterplay.

With the removal of proc conditions or proc chances, the actual player input was removed aswell. For some of these sets you actually had to build accordingly or use specific skills. Red mountain and way of fire both required pretty much rapid strikes as spammable, therefore a dual wield build. Winterborn required several sources of ice damage to make it proc frequently, now it procs everytime on cooldown. There is no building anymore to use a specific proc set, its just free damage handed to the player using the set.

Yes and they removed proc condition from pillar of nirn and increased it's damage more than twice... I mean WTF?! Is this how balancing should look like? Remember dots? Before they buffed them DKs had strongest dots, NBs had cripple, we all had two morphs of mages guild dot with major sorcery etc. etc. Now we have same boring dots, with same damage but different animations... And now they came up with THIS? Proc sets that have power of 2 dot skills? Like seriously? Aren't those tooltips of dots from the times back then?

technohic

robpr wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Actually; sounds like this 1 works on streak? Think I might go stam sorc, this set, full swift and steed, streak through people, negate and bombard away. Yeah, it wont be a killer but how fun is it to deal with? Make for great gameplay? Maybe duo with a bomb blade.

Streak is a "Blink" ability, not any of those because it dont require target. It doesn't trigger taunt on Tormentor.

It says it procs on teleports along with everything else. Feels like they mentioned it to be equally available to everyone, and I'm not sure they ever officially have termed it a blink ability

visionality

Well said, @SavageChain, and concerning PVP I totally agree. The most worrysome part of these changes is that proc sets now have a guaranteed proc as long as you are out of cooldown. Basically, at the beginning of a fight everything procs. This makes counterplay impossible and ganking even more skill-free than before.

Maybe adding a pre-cooldown to battlespirit would help, saying that you have to be in fight 3-5 seconds before your first procset can proc, and 3-5 seconds later your next.

ThePedge

Proc sets are free damage
Free damage lowers the skill gap
Low skill gap, bad game

lucky_Sage

technohic wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Actually; sounds like this 1 works on streak? Think I might go stam sorc, this set, full swift and steed, streak through people, negate and bombard away. Yeah, it wont be a killer but how fun is it to deal with? Make for great gameplay? Maybe duo with a bomb blade.

Streak is a "Blink" ability, not any of those because it dont require target. It doesn't trigger taunt on Tormentor.

It says it procs on teleports along with everything else. Feels like they mentioned it to be equally available to everyone, and I'm not sure they ever officially have termed it a blink ability

I would think it would only work if it’s targeted. Would be funny it it was bugged and would proc of wardens vine pull on allies

Rianai

Streak does proc Unleashed Terror.