Please do not swap rapids with vigor – QOL deterioration

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Hurbster · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

But what if you don't want to PVP ? Or have a mag build that does not need vigour ? I can just imagine the fun on a new character levelling psijiic on a slow horse with no raps. Painful to say the least.

Vigour is a heal, put it in support, leave raps as it is.

MaleAmazon · July 2020

I don't even want to think about how awful getting to assault five will be without rapids

Tip: Battlegrounds.

(Not being snarky, I really mean it. It sucks that you need to do PvP for some essential skills even if you have no interest in it, be it vigor or rapids. But random battlegrounds the way it works now at least gives you action and not *5 mins of automove, then instaganked*)

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

LightningWitch wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But Vigor is even more important.

You are the type of player ZoS is addressing with this change and it's insulting to the rest of us.

Vigor has been nerfed to pointlessness. [snip]

That's a fact, not an insult.

[snip]

Sorcs have Dark Exchange + Morphs. 8090 health instantly.

Vigor: 6669 health over 4 seconds.

The math is clear: sorcs don't need vigor. [snip]

For years, we've been asking the dev team to fix the stam line, and for 6 years we've been given nothing but excuses and nerfs.

There's no relatable skill in the stam line that restores health like Dark Conversion, and the real question should be "Why?".

Rather than fix the problem, ZoS is making Vigor a practical guarantee to get simply by stepping foot into a PvP zone.

It's stupid. It's stupid. And it's stupid.

ZoS devs should be fixing the stam skill line, not forcing them to chase skills that have nothing to do with Stam builds.

If this were the case, THEN ZOS SHOULD PUT THE DAMN SKILL IN THE STAM LINE AND REMOVE IT FROM PVP COMPLETELY.

Understand now? Stop advocating stupid changes, please.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

"The stam' line"?

Do you mean maybe Fighter's guild or Undaunted? Ironically both are a bigger grind than Alliance 5, and less rewarding. You'll have an extra six skill points once you make Assault 5. Skill points you literally cannot get unless you engage in PvP activities.

Also, what relevance does a Sorcerer skill have to do with the other five classes?

Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

Stahlor · July 2020

Vigor as first skill in fighters guild --> problem solved.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

A few points here.
Low level stamina players heals come from magic skills, for the most part so you often run of out magic (even with extra magic) cause you put all your point in stamina the pool you actually need. Warden and Necro have good class stamina heals. Again at low levels.

In PvP it’s super easy to get 98k. Yes even at level ten. I did it for an alt BEFORE they lowered the amount of AP needed to level. Don’t try to go toe to toe with high level players that’s a death trap. Port to a keep and sit on the wall with siege you will kill or tag players left, right and center.
Those you kill boom AP those you tag and are killed by others boom AP. If you hold the keep boom AP. If you lose the keep you still get your killing AP siege damage doesn’t scale so a max level 6 year vet is doing the same damage as a day one players with siege.

Horse speed DOES NOT MATTER.
If you’re a vet player you port to guild mates or friends and jump around much faster then you can on a new horse with rapids. If you’re a brand new players you don’t even know what a fast horse is. Let alone to go to PvP to make your horse faster.
Stop using new players as a shield no vet player unlocks wayshrines by horse back on a alt you port to guild mates. It’s not like you need every single shrine in the game just the main ones.

In PvP you can port to keeps and outpost would having the power to heal in PvP is more useful then a faster horse. It’s a PvP skill line being changed for PvP players. PvE mage builds get use from this that’s really awesome but it’s a PvP skill line first and foremost.

FierceSam · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

You know that 1105 heal you have there is the base value, right? As in a character wearing no gear at all.

It scales with stats.

FierceSam · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

You know that 1105 heal you have there is the base value, right? As in a character wearing no gear at all.

It scales with stats.

Still won’t keep you alive.

Still a bad idea to make Rapids more difficult to acquire.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

You know that 1105 heal you have there is the base value, right? As in a character wearing no gear at all.

It scales with stats.

Still won’t keep you alive.

Still a bad idea to make Rapids more difficult to acquire.

Won't keep you alive? Not solo, maybe. You need Resolving Vigor for that.

In a group? Yes. Yes it most certainly will. And a group is by far the quickest way to level the skill line, too.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Hurbster wrote: »

But what if you don't want to PVP ? Or have a mag build that does not need vigour ? I can just imagine the fun on a new character levelling psijiic on a slow horse with no raps. Painful to say the least.

Vigour is a heal, put it in support, leave raps as it is.

This is not a real point you don’t WANT to do PvP then you DON’T unlock PvP skills it’s not hard. If you don’t want to grind Psijic you don’t get Psijic if you have no desire to kill undead and demons you don’t get Dawnbreaker. You have to do a lot of content you may hate just for a skill you want this is no different. PvEer don’t have to like PvP but you don’t get to complain when you have to do a grind for a skill in PvP when PvPer who hate PvE do this all time.

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

Vigor is a powerful heal if you have stamina. 1105 heal over 5 second on what a low level mage?

Stamina max level unbuffed 14.4k
Magic max level unbuffed 3.2k
Stamina LEVEL 11 unbuffed 6.3k skill is not unlocked yet this character is level 11 and Assault 3 already.

[snip]

I don’t have a non max level mage right now

[Edit for bait.]

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

But what if you don't want to PVP ? Or have a mag build that does not need vigour ? I can just imagine the fun on a new character levelling psijiic on a slow horse with no raps. Painful to say the least.

Vigour is a heal, put it in support, leave raps as it is.

This is not a real point you don’t WANT to do PvP then you DON’T unlock PvP skills it’s not hard. If you don’t want to grind Psijic you don’t get Psijic if you have no desire to kill undead and demons you don’t get Dawnbreaker. You have to do a lot of content you may hate just for a skill you want this is no different. PvEer don’t have to like PvP but you don’t get to complain when you have to do a grind for a skill in PvP when PvPer who hate PvE do this all time.

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

Vigor is a powerful heal if you have stamina. 1105 heal over 5 second on what a low level mage?

Stamina max level unbuffed 14.4k
Magic max level unbuffed 3.2k
Stamina LEVEL 11 unbuffed 6.3k skill is not unlocked yet this character is level 11 and Assault 3 already.

[snip]

I don’t have a non max level mage right now

[Edit for bait.]

Thank you for detailing the numbers. You put it far better than I did.

Hurbster · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

But what if you don't want to PVP ? Or have a mag build that does not need vigour ? I can just imagine the fun on a new character levelling psijiic on a slow horse with no raps. Painful to say the least.

Vigour is a heal, put it in support, leave raps as it is.

This is not a real point you don’t WANT to do PvP then you DON’T unlock PvP skills it’s not hard. If you don’t want to grind Psijic you don’t get Psijic if you have no desire to kill undead and demons you don’t get Dawnbreaker. You have to do a lot of content you may hate just for a skill you want this is no different. PvEer don’t have to like PvP but you don’t get to complain when you have to do a grind for a skill in PvP when PvPer who hate PvE do this all time.

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

Vigor is a powerful heal if you have stamina. 1105 heal over 5 second on what a low level mage?

Stamina max level unbuffed 14.4k
Magic max level unbuffed 3.2k
Stamina LEVEL 11 unbuffed 6.3k skill is not unlocked yet this character is level 11 and Assault 3 already.

[snip]

I don’t have a non max level mage right now

[Edit for bait.]

Excuse me? I'll damn well complain about a stupid idea if I want to. I have already pushed my stam characters to get vigour in PVP, now I have to do the same for my mag ones? Oh, and characters that already have raps are going to lose it with not so much as a by-your-leave. So now all my characters will have to PVP if I want raps, whether magica or stamina. Well, that's just bloody great.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

But what if you don't want to PVP ? Or have a mag build that does not need vigour ? I can just imagine the fun on a new character levelling psijiic on a slow horse with no raps. Painful to say the least.

Vigour is a heal, put it in support, leave raps as it is.

This is not a real point you don’t WANT to do PvP then you DON’T unlock PvP skills it’s not hard. If you don’t want to grind Psijic you don’t get Psijic if you have no desire to kill undead and demons you don’t get Dawnbreaker. You have to do a lot of content you may hate just for a skill you want this is no different. PvEer don’t have to like PvP but you don’t get to complain when you have to do a grind for a skill in PvP when PvPer who hate PvE do this all time.

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

Vigor is a powerful heal if you have stamina. 1105 heal over 5 second on what a low level mage?

Stamina max level unbuffed 14.4k
Magic max level unbuffed 3.2k
Stamina LEVEL 11 unbuffed 6.3k skill is not unlocked yet this character is level 11 and Assault 3 already.

[snip]

I don’t have a non max level mage right now

[Edit for bait.]

Thank you for detailing the numbers. You put it far better than I did.

I work from home even before everything so I was able to jump in the game and pull some numbers. I have never seen a 1k vigor tool tip ever using base numbers to call the one of if not the most power stamina heal weak, not today.

LightningWitch · July 2020

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

"The stam' line"?

Due to the complexity of builds, I decided to keep this as "stam line" because a stamsorc can sustain health but a stamblade cannot. Easily, anyway.

Do you mean maybe Fighter's guild or Undaunted? Ironically both are a bigger grind than Alliance 5, and less rewarding. You'll have an extra six skill points once you make Assault 5. Skill points you literally cannot get unless you engage in PvP activities.

No, I mean stam skills in general. FG's only useful skill is Beast Trap, and Undaunted is only sought for Mettle.

For the past 2 years, ZoS has been pushing this narrative of "Play as you want, who you want", but this is not easy to do when new players are coming in and have no clue of the gap between mag and stam characters.

Also, what relevance does a Sorcerer skill have to do with the other five classes?

Because people are calling for easy access to vigor and I'm showing it's a lackluster skill when compared to the Sorc's dark conversion skill.

I'm sure some people still use it, but the last time I was in Cyro, I didn't see it used much.

This tells me it's more pushed toward a PvE skill than a PvP, and if this is the case, I'd say move it into the PvE skill tree instead.

I'm sure new NB's would kill for this early instead of having to go to PvP to get it.

Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

Why is it when people have a complaint about an issue, this idiotic defense mechanism kicks in? Can you explain it to me?
PvP is horrendous, and without proper skills and gear, it's a death sentence for most new players.

For me, having a faster mount is far, far more important than a nerfed spell that'll keep me alive for .300ms longer.

Also, BG is a cesspool of toxic behavior and I will never return to this garbage again. Making the situation even worse is ZoS took away our ability to enter it as a group.

No. BG is dead to me. I'd rather to IS and take my chances there. At least I won't have to listen to a spoiled child upset because they didn't take first place.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

LightningWitch wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

"The stam' line"?

Due to the complexity of builds, I decided to keep this as "stam line" because a stamsorc can sustain health but a stamblade cannot. Easily, anyway.

Do you mean maybe Fighter's guild or Undaunted? Ironically both are a bigger grind than Alliance 5, and less rewarding. You'll have an extra six skill points once you make Assault 5. Skill points you literally cannot get unless you engage in PvP activities.

No, I mean stam skills in general. FG's only useful skill is Beast Trap, and Undaunted is only sought for Mettle.

For the past 2 years, ZoS has been pushing this narrative of "Play as you want, who you want", but this is not easy to do when new players are coming in and have no clue of the gap between mag and stam characters.

Also, what relevance does a Sorcerer skill have to do with the other five classes?

Because people are calling for easy access to vigor and I'm showing it's a lackluster skill when compared to the Sorc's dark conversion skill.

I'm sure some people still use it, but the last time I was in Cyro, I didn't see it used much.

This tells me it's more pushed toward a PvE skill than a PvP, and if this is the case, I'd say move it into the PvE skill tree instead.

I'm sure new NB's would kill for this early instead of having to go to PvP to get it.

Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

Why is it when people have a complaint about an issue, this idiotic defense mechanism kicks in? Can you explain it to me?
PvP is horrendous, and without proper skills and gear, it's a death sentence for most new players.

For me, having a faster mount is far, far more important than a nerfed spell that'll keep me alive for .300ms longer.

Also, BG is a cesspool of toxic behavior and I will never return to this garbage again. Making the situation even worse is ZoS took away our ability to enter it as a group.

No. BG is dead to me. I'd rather to IS and take my chances there. At least I won't have to listen to a spoiled child upset because they didn't take first place.

I dare say that it's a PvP-orientated skill because you are not guaranteed a healer at any point in PvP.

Group PvE content on the other hand can't even start without a designated healer. (Yes I know this might be a fake-healer, that's missing the point I'm making here.)

Trials of course can be impossible without a healer.

As for BG? Honestly, just ignore the "spoiled children". Good players aren't the ones complaining about losses, even when it happens to them. Every loss is a lesson to learn from.

Kiralyn2000 · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Stop using new players as a shield no vet player unlocks wayshrines by horse back on a alt you port to guild mates.

I unlock wayshrines on alts by horse. But that's because I have no guilds.

But like I said - I've never had or used Rapid on any of my characters. I really don't get this "OMG, Rapid is essential for lowbies in PvE!"
This thread is honestly the first time in four years that I've heard people saying this. (as opposed to all the threads I've seen bemoaning the need to grind PvP for Vigor)

Is it annoying when I go from my veteran character with a fast mount, to a new alt with a slow mount? Sure - just like it is in every other game where you need to build up your abilities over time. But that's how games play. It's normal. /shrug
(but yeah, I don't understand why anyone ever buys Mount Training books, seems like a total waste of crowns)

LightningWitch wrote: »

Also, what relevance does a Sorcerer skill have to do with the other five classes?

Because people are calling for easy access to vigor and I'm showing it's a lackluster skill when compared to the Sorc's dark conversion skill.

And that's why a Stamsorc wouldn't want it. But compared to the Nothing that some other Stam classes have, it's not lackluster at all.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Hurbster wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

But what if you don't want to PVP ? Or have a mag build that does not need vigour ? I can just imagine the fun on a new character levelling psijiic on a slow horse with no raps. Painful to say the least.

Vigour is a heal, put it in support, leave raps as it is.

This is not a real point you don’t WANT to do PvP then you DON’T unlock PvP skills it’s not hard. If you don’t want to grind Psijic you don’t get Psijic if you have no desire to kill undead and demons you don’t get Dawnbreaker. You have to do a lot of content you may hate just for a skill you want this is no different. PvEer don’t have to like PvP but you don’t get to complain when you have to do a grind for a skill in PvP when PvPer who hate PvE do this all time.

FierceSam wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Although Rapids is pretty damn essential if you actually want to ride to the siege. And get those AP everyone says are so damn easy to get. If they’re so easy just get them and collect your Vigor.

1105 slow burn HOT over 5 seconds ain’t gonna save anyone’s arse. It’s literally useless. Whereas a 30% speed buff with major expedition and major gallop is bloody useful for anyone trying to get around Cyrodiil or the PvE world.

Although it’s a dumb argument as you should be able to get Vigor early on without f-ing everyone else by making it harder to get Rapids.

As for the notion that they’re going to remove it from EVERYONE who currently has it but hasn’t done enough PvP, that is the kind of mind boggling rudeness they applied to Maelstrom weapons.

Vigor is a powerful heal if you have stamina. 1105 heal over 5 second on what a low level mage?

Stamina max level unbuffed 14.4k
Magic max level unbuffed 3.2k
Stamina LEVEL 11 unbuffed 6.3k skill is not unlocked yet this character is level 11 and Assault 3 already.

[snip]

I don’t have a non max level mage right now

[Edit for bait.]

Excuse me? I'll damn well complain about a stupid idea if I want to. I have already pushed my stam characters to get vigour in PVP, now I have to do the same for my mag ones? Oh, and characters that already have raps are going to lose it with not so much as a by-your-leave. So now all my characters will have to PVP if I want raps, whether magica or stamina. Well, that's just bloody great.

If and when they reorder PvE skill lines. PvP players have had and will have to do the same grind up a skill tree they don't like all for a skill or passive who's order was changed. On that day the forum will tell PvP players the same thing they always have in the past suck in up and grind it out. A heal that uses your main pool is more important on a PvP character and the skill line is for PvP characters.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Stop using new players as a shield no vet player unlocks wayshrines by horse back on a alt you port to guild mates.

I unlock wayshrines on alts by horse. But that's because I have no guilds.

But like I said - I've never had or used Rapid on any of my characters. I really don't get this "OMG, Rapid is essential for lowbies in PvE!"
This thread is honestly the first time in four years that I've heard people saying this. (as opposed to all the threads I've seen bemoaning the need to grind PvP for Vigor)

Is it annoying when I go from my veteran character with a fast mount, to a new alt with a slow mount? Sure - just like it is in every other game where you need to build up your abilities over time. But that's how games play. It's normal. /shrug
(but yeah, I don't understand why anyone ever buys Mount Training books, seems like a total waste of crowns)

LightningWitch wrote: »

Also, what relevance does a Sorcerer skill have to do with the other five classes?

Because people are calling for easy access to vigor and I'm showing it's a lackluster skill when compared to the Sorc's dark conversion skill.

And that's why a Stamsorc wouldn't want it. But compared to the Nothing that some other Stam classes have, it's not lackluster at all.

If you are having fun have at it I can't ride to a new zone for the 18th time that charm is gone for me I port like like my life depended on it.

OrphanHelgen · July 2020

Other:

Personally , I went pvp at level 10 too to get rapid for the speed around while questing. I also believe vigor could be good too for more casual players that can die on mobs because they have no cp and want a heal, and they take their time anyway. So idk, personally I don't care, I think balancing this towards new players without cp is the best way to go compared to someone who need a 10th char.

LightningWitch · July 2020

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

I dare say that it's a PvP-orientated skill because you are not guaranteed a healer at any point in PvP.

That's true, but Vigor is a HoT, and pretty useless when going up against someone who can do more damage than the HoT can restore.

In PvE, it's helpful for those "Oh crap!" moments when health is about to get low, but you can't use a potion.
In PvP, I don't see it useful at all, which is why I probably don't see people using it much either.

That explosive growth of Necros? They don't need Vigor.

Group PvE content on the other hand can't even start without a designated healer. (Yes I know this might be a fake-healer, that's missing the point I'm making here.)

I don't agree with this, especially since I run with a 3 person team and we clear content all the time. We just worked with a 4 person, non-heal/non-tank group and grabbed Valkyn hel in Vet for someone in the group (gotta admit, I like this one).

Trials of course can be impossible without a healer.

Very true, but I also don't expect anyone else to be slotting Vigor. Let the healers do their job.

As for BG? Honestly, just ignore the "spoiled children". Good players aren't the ones complaining about losses, even when it happens to them. Every loss is a lesson to learn from.

Wish I could, honestly. When BG first started out, I had a blast with it. Chaosball is still my favorite.
Unfortunately, it has become too toxic to play. I'm not so much upset as I am disappointed the games have become a haven to farm Alliance points for some to acquire sets in the game.

AP should only be earned in Cyro, but that's just my opinion.

nemvar · July 2020

In PvP, I don't see it useful at all, which is why I probably don't see people using it much either.

In what world do you live?

HoTs are especially good in PVP because they allow you to be proactive rather than reactive.
Vigor is quite literally on every stamina build in pvp, unless you are going hard on restoration staff memes.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

LightningWitch wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

I dare say that it's a PvP-orientated skill because you are not guaranteed a healer at any point in PvP.

That's true, but Vigor is a HoT, and pretty useless when going up against someone who can do more damage than the HoT can restore.

In PvE, it's helpful for those "Oh crap!" moments when health is about to get low, but you can't use a potion.
In PvP, I don't see it useful at all, which is why I probably don't see people using it much either.

That explosive growth of Necros? They don't need Vigor.

Group PvE content on the other hand can't even start without a designated healer. (Yes I know this might be a fake-healer, that's missing the point I'm making here.)

I don't agree with this, especially since I run with a 3 person team and we clear content all the time. We just worked with a 4 person, non-heal/non-tank group and grabbed Valkyn hel in Vet for someone in the group (gotta admit, I like this one).

Trials of course can be impossible without a healer.

Very true, but I also don't expect anyone else to be slotting Vigor. Let the healers do their job.

As for BG? Honestly, just ignore the "spoiled children". Good players aren't the ones complaining about losses, even when it happens to them. Every loss is a lesson to learn from.

Wish I could, honestly. When BG first started out, I had a blast with it. Chaosball is still my favorite.
Unfortunately, it has become too toxic to play. I'm not so much upset as I am disappointed the games have become a haven to farm Alliance points for some to acquire sets in the game.

AP should only be earned in Cyro, but that's just my opinion.

You don't PvP, do you?

Gythral · July 2020

Other:

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

...
Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

No, it is far far worse, with a rewrite of the battleground 'queue' or a "wake up and do some work" hamster needed at a bare minimum to get people to grind for a skill they arleady have! (until this nerf goes live) ..

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Gythral wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

...
Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

No, it is far far worse, with a rewrite of the battleground 'queue' or a "wake up and do some work" hamster needed at a bare minimum to get people to grind for a skill they arleady have! (until this nerf goes live) ..

Disgaree but okay.

Gythral · July 2020

Other:

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

...
Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

No, it is far far worse, with a rewrite of the battleground 'queue' or a "wake up and do some work" hamster needed at a bare minimum to get people to grind for a skill they arleady have! (until this nerf goes live) ..

Disgaree but okay.

so the battleground queue isnt wait indefinitly - get a group of 2 with3 or 4 in each of the other 2 - wait 15mins, rinse, repeat 14x
& cyrodil isnt move 2m <loading screen> start agn, move 2m <loading screen> finally arrive just after the 'win' tick, locate where zerg has moved to , rinse, repeat!

{ok it's not 'quite' that bad all of the time}

CMDR_Un1k0rn · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

Gythral wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

...
Honestly, PvP is not that bad. You needn't even go to Cyrodiil. Battlegrounds will do plenty and at most it's 14 matches. Almost certainly less.

No, it is far far worse, with a rewrite of the battleground 'queue' or a "wake up and do some work" hamster needed at a bare minimum to get people to grind for a skill they arleady have! (until this nerf goes live) ..

Disgaree but okay.

so the battleground queue isnt wait indefinitly - get a group of 2 with3 or 4 in each of the other 2 - wait 15mins, rinse, repeat 14x
& cyrodil isnt move 2m <loading screen> start agn, move 2m <loading screen> finally arrive just after the 'win' tick, locate where zerg has moved to , rinse, repeat!

{ok it's not 'quite' that bad all of the time}

Not quite that bad most of the time, TBH. I can't remember when I last lost out on a win tick due to loading screens.

tmbrinks · July 2020

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

There are a number of people here saying "it's OK, because it's ver easy to rank up and earn the whole skill line".

OK. So why change the order of progression then? As has been stated here already, loads of people, especially when levelling the blasted horsey speed, use rapids. Many of those have zero desire to ever step foot inside Cyrodiil or a Battleground.

Maybe the right thing to do here is to simply move rapids to the World skill line. Best of both worlds.

People quit PvP because there's no Stam' heal right away. Rapids is worse than useless when you're in a siege. Why the hell do you need Major Gallop when you're shooting ballistae off a castle wall?

Vigor on the other hand is essential. It may even give you what you need to turn a fight around.

As said before, play smart and you'll do just fine for the first couple hours without Rapids. After that you'll have Rapids, plus a few skill points extra.

Keep only talking about PvP (and end-game PVP) at that. PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT JUST PVP!!!!

Maybe 30% of characters created in this game use Vigor (those are are stam (50%), minus several stam classes have their own source of heals) Stam players doing dungeons/trials don't use Vigor (in most cases)... you have a healer!

100% of characters can take advantage of Rapids (in PVE AND PVP!!!)

Yeah, you don't use Rapids when doing dungeons/trials..

But you do use it in overland questing, doing event dailies, getting to Harrowstorms/Dolmens/Dragons.

I don't want to PVP on my characters that are built to do writs.

So, at level 10, I go into cyrodiil, and do the bare minimum I had to do to unlock rapids (the intro quest, and you can skip "training")

Now, I have to do some pvp to level up a skill I've already unlocked (also, in the past when ZoS has re-ordered skills in a skill line, if you unlocked it... it stayed unlocked... why the change? Probably to sell the Alliance Skill Line in the crown store)

If, I had known, I would have actually done the tutorial, since it gives quite a bit more AP than skipping it, but I won't have the option to do that now... will I?

FierceSam · July 2020

Keep it as it is now

Weird thing is I don’t know anyone who goes to Cyrodiil who doesn’t slot Rapids. It’s essential to get around.

I know a ton of them who don’t bother with Vigor, simply because there are better heals out there.

Should Vigor be easier to get? Yup.

Should this be at the expense of Rapids? Absolutely not.

ZOS could easily sort this by making Rapids a World skill or by giving all classes better stam options. But this would require more work than lazily changing some icons and numbers around and casually f-ing everyone who has Rapids now but has successfully avoided the [snip] that is PvP.

[Edit for censor bypass.]

VoxAdActa · July 2020

Switch rapids with vigor

How are people not getting this?

Vigor is the only heal available for non-warden Stam characters.

Rapids is purely cosmetic.

"Oh, I'm not getting to my compass point fast enough! Literally unplayable!" Really?