Proc sets are very concerning

Ragnaroek93 · July 2020

I mean, they're already extremely strong on the live server and now most of them get buffed? I don't think that this is good game design, they are basically effortless AFK dmg and it doesn't feel satisfying compared to bursting down and opponent with a combo or just overwhelm the opponent with good timing on dots and pressure. Dieing to procs is also only frustrating and most of these proc sets lack proper counterplay (you can dodge and block most attacks but you can't do that with many proc sets unless you are a Nb and can cloak them or purge them). We had a proc meta years ago and most people didn't enjoy it. WoW has a proc meta too right now and PvP participation is at an all time low and everybody hates it. Learn from these mistakes. Maybe add a buff to Battlespirit to reduce proc dmg by 60% in PvP or something like that or don't allow Malacath ring to increase the damage from procs.

That said, some classes got pruned down so much that they don't work anymore without proc sets, like magden, magcro etc. Nb got buffed and looks quite powerful now but some other classes still need love and stam necro needs to be tuned down a bit, permanent uptime on major defile is just ridiculous, especially with proc sets.

Wing · July 2020

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

Ragnaroek93 · July 2020

Wing wrote: »

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

There are enough good players who abuse the heck out of every broken mechanic tbh (not all of them but quite a lot, at least on pc eu). I don't think that this nonsense will improve the experience of "noobs" at all.

Urzigurumash · July 2020

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

they're already extremely strong on the live server

For stam, are any of them on live stronger than NMA frontbar and 7th/CA/etc backbar? With the removal of percentile chance, most any proc set now can be as effectively single-barred as double-barred, which is nice. Do you suspect the new numbers on some of these proc sets indicate that they will outperform NMA + 7th/CA? If so, universally, or only among some players, or only on specific builds to which a specific proc set may be tailored?

VD, the only frequent proc set we see in our recaps in CP Cyrodiil, has also received a buff, unexpectedly, but this set of course does have counterplay, it's just preventative counterplay rather than reactionary. My above comment regarding flat damage versus proc has no intended pertinence to magicka builds, I only play stam.

Ragnaroek93 · July 2020

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

they're already extremely strong on the live server

For stam, are any of them on live stronger than NMA frontbar and 7th/CA/etc backbar? With the removal of percentile chance, most any proc set now can be as effectively single-barred as double-barred, which is nice. Do you suspect the new numbers on some of these proc sets indicate that they will outperform NMA + 7th/CA? If so, universally, or only among some players, or only on specific builds to which a specific proc set may be tailored?

VD, the only frequent proc set we see in our recaps in CP Cyrodiil, has also received a buff, unexpectedly, but this set of course does have counterplay, it's just preventative counterplay rather than reactionary. My above comment regarding flat damage versus proc has no intended pertinence to magicka builds, I only play stam.

Depends on the class, on stam tanks you kinda prefer raw stats because they also increase healing. On several mag classes and stamnb proc sets are incredible strong however (not blaming them, a lot of the classes who utilize them don't work without them right now but buffing proc sets isn't a good solution for that imo). Just look at venomous smite, it's incredible overpowered for example.

Kadoin · July 2020

It's worse than One Tamriel on live, and they are going to push the envelope even further. Proc sets are here to stay.

Sellistrix is the most OP proc set of them all though in PvP and PvE, IMO it either needs a damage reduction or longer cooldown for what it does. Don't tell ZOS though

MincVinyl · July 2020

Someone had a good idea in another thread, just add 50% proc mit in battle spirit. I suppose a Cp could be added aswell.

Imo there is no reason gear should be doing the job of playing the game for the player. Procs that give you stats are one thing, but damage procs have never been enjoyable in pvp combat.

LuxLunae · July 2020

I find it funny you talk about proc sets but forget to realize that BURSTING an opponent has to do EXACTLY WITH PROC SETS!!

Popping a potion to heal and get resources back using clevar alchemist with New Moons or Fury when your health goes down and hitting vigor+other heals to push your health back to almost 100% then bursting on a person is not really that strategic...

That is the epitome of carry set.

However, I don't disagree with you...clevar alchemist should be reduced to like 500 or maybe 450.

Fury was reduced... so no problem..

I know there are some other sets that should be tweaked as well that is not a helm proc but am too lazy to go look

I will leave you with this gem....What we DONT want proc to be ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UjSAPgW8I

Mayrael · July 2020

It will be funny: D Don't nerf them, abuse them lads

I will have no freaking regrets using all that broken stuff they introduce

I will switch to stam and go full possible cheese - I'm done with trying to stay competetive and healthy, time to get cancerous. If noobs will die to those proc sets lot enough, maybe they will tone them down.

Ragnaroek93 · July 2020

LuxLunae wrote: »

I find it funny you talk about proc sets but forget to realize that BURSTING an opponent has to do EXACTLY WITH PROC SETS!!

Popping a potion to heal and get resources back using clevar alchemist with New Moons or Fury when your health goes down and hitting vigor+other heals to push your health back to almost 100% then bursting on a person is not really that strategic...

That is the epitome of carry set.

However, I don't disagree with you...clevar alchemist should be reduced to like 500 or maybe 450.

Fury was reduced... so no problem..

I know there are some other sets that should be tweaked as well that is not a helm proc but am too lazy to go look

I will leave you with this gem....What we DONT want proc to be ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UjSAPgW8I

You don't need Alchemist to burst someone down. And Alchemist doesn't provide AFK damage. You still need to hit your abilities and most of them can be dodged and blocked. When looking at Venomous Smite on live server for example, you just deals insane AoE dmg by just proccing that set. I don't mind a high damage meta but not in form of damage procsets.

Firstmep · July 2020

Will be fun streaking into big groups to spread 4k per sec aoe bleed, stunning everyome and then using spinnto win to spread high execute scaling proc dots.
You guys think proc sorcs are cancerous now? Just you wait!
My magplar is also ready to rock malacath calurion combo, to delete people withing 2gcds, from 28 meters away xD.

fred4 · July 2020

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

they are basically effortless AFK dmg and it doesn't feel satisfying compared to bursting down and opponent with a combo

As a Caluurion and Zaan magblade I take offense. The only way that works is by running a skill combo as well. The former set only procs after a delay, whereas the latter only gradually ramps up. It's not all that strong, at least not in CP where I play, nor is magblade especially strong as a whole (currently). Players routinely mitigate my burst by being tanky, by having shields or by dodge rolling. Calling this AFK damage misrepresents proc sets, or at least my build, making the procs seem stronger than they are.

It will be possible to combine Caluurion with Malacath in future, which it's currently not, but it remains to be seen how strong this turns out in no CP. When you look at Caluurion and Zaan in particular, they are rather oxymoronic, as they grant you 3 lines of crit. That and your innate crit bonuses go to waste on a magblade putting on Malacath.

Basically I reject the argument that all proc sets and all proc builds are unbalanced, nor that they are unsatisfying. Most, if not all, have that 1 second activation time. Furthermore Caluurion seemed almost tailor-made to compensate for weakness of the magblade class. I'm not sure what to make of it's future non-crit activation, which broadens the appeal. It's not something I can readily judge.

I do find magblade easier to play with Caluurion and without Shadow Image and Merciless. It's not just that, though. Caluurion is something that requires no GCDs to maintain. This makes the build extremely fun and reactive to play, even though not atually that strong. My build has an almost zero buff rotation. Everything I do is situational and positional, not bogged down by keeping up buffs or by having to fit my combat around my class' needs, such as building Assassin's Will stacks or being in range and porting back to my Image, before it runs out. I might have been carried by procs as a beginner, but the reason I keep playing this setup is because of the fun playstyle it enables.

I'm sorry to be so specific. I do however think a general statement, such as "proc sets" are bad, is doomed to be proven wrong with counterexamples, of which this is one. Proc sets have been in the game so long. Most, if not all, have been adjusted with activation times that hamper them in PvP. I think the devil's in the details when it comes to what works in an actual build and what's satisfying and what's not. The latter, especially, is in the eye of the beholder. You feel that burst combos without procs make for satisfying gameplay. That, however, is not a good argument, because you can't legislate what other people find fun or satisfying. For me it's the challenge of going into melee range and bursting someone on an extremely squishy build, then getting out alive.

fred4 · July 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

My magplar is also ready to rock malacath calurion combo, to delete people withing 2gcds, from 28 meters away xD.

If you're serious, that just shows your lack of experience. You do not delete people like that. You might, if they're engaged in fighting someone else, but even then they tend to shrug it off and keep brawling, at least in CP. I would say a properly specced sniper is more dangerous.

You also have not seen a Caluurion projectile travel, have you? We're talking about far more than 2GCDs here. The patch notes mention a speedup, but we're starting from an extremely slow base value.

You have to be at melee range to make Caluurion work. Toppling Charge could work, but I don't see many templars playing this currently and the set is not changing that much. Now you're committed to a melee fight. Furthermore, breaking free, then dodge rolling is not an unreasonable response to a templar gap closing you. That makes Caluurion miss, due to the 1 second proc delay, and is the reason why I construct my magblade burst differently, fearing when Caluurion actually hits, not beforehand.

Firstmep · July 2020

fred4 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

My magplar is also ready to rock malacath calurion combo, to delete people withing 2gcds, from 28 meters away xD.

If you're serious, that just shows your lack of experience. You do not delete people like that. You might, if they're engaged in fighting someone else, but even then they tend to shrug it off and keep brawling, at least in CP. I would say a properly specced sniper is more dangerous.

You also have not seen a Caluurion projectile travel, have you? We're talking about far more than 2GCDs here. The patch notes mention a speedup, but we're starting from an extremely slow base value.

You have to be at melee range to make Caluurion work. Toppling Charge could work, but I don't see many templars playing this currently and the set is not changing that much. Now you're committed to a melee fight. Furthermore, breaking free, then dodge rolling is not an unreasonable response to a templar gap closing you. That makes Caluurion miss, due to the 1 second proc delay, and is the reason why I construct my magblade burst differently, fearing when Caluurion actually hits, not beforehand.

I mostly play in no cp, and even now 1 calu proc can easily deal upwards of 7k+ dmg in no cp, and next patch with malacath this is getting way higher.

Also check out Decimus on twitch, he plays ranged magplar and a very effective one at that.

Also i clearly didnt mean that i would delete everyone with this combo, but a lot of ppl are very squishy in no cp right now.

Javelin is a great ranged cc, you can time it with dark flare due to its cast/travel time for a decent burst and beacuse of how knockbacks work, calurion can also land, especially now on pts when you can just start off with for example vamps bane and by the time your javelin hits, calu will be on your target already.

So yes, i have plenty of experience with calu and with ppl using the set, its not meant for melee brawlers, why would you even bring up toppling charge.

If anything you thinking that you need to play melee to make calu work shows YOUR lack of experince.

Mayrael · July 2020

fred4 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

My magplar is also ready to rock malacath calurion combo, to delete people withing 2gcds, from 28 meters away xD.

If you're serious, that just shows your lack of experience. You do not delete people like that. You might, if they're engaged in fighting someone else, but even then they tend to shrug it off and keep brawling, at least in CP. I would say a properly specced sniper is more dangerous.

You also have not seen a Caluurion projectile travel, have you? We're talking about far more than 2GCDs here. The patch notes mention a speedup, but we're starting from an extremely slow base value.

You have to be at melee range to make Caluurion work. Toppling Charge could work, but I don't see many templars playing this currently and the set is not changing that much. Now you're committed to a melee fight. Furthermore, breaking free, then dodge rolling is not an unreasonable response to a templar gap closing you. That makes Caluurion miss, due to the 1 second proc delay, and is the reason why I construct my magblade burst differently, fearing when Caluurion actually hits, not beforehand.

When I see posts like Firstmeps this is what comes to my mind: people tend to think they will equip Caluurion and suddenly all will blow up on their own. GL with that, especially when you will meet some tanky player who will just shrug off 4-5k caluurion damage and then start to burst you with his 3-4k spamable. Caluurion is great in Cyrodiils chaos and as an opener, but as 1v1 tool its way overrated. But they will see

buttaface · July 2020

Funny to see how many people in the thread so far have formed and stated opinions without reading the patch notes. Maybe read ALL the sets buff carefully. There's no way many of the sets will make it to live nor should they.

"Hi there! You don't know me but I'm invisible now, and using Mechanical Acuity, a stage 4 vamp passive and toggle, I'm about to hit you with CC and then 100% crit + 900 WD/SD 3-4 LAs at range before you can even think about breaking free! Won't that be fun for you! Oh, forgot, I won't even spend any resources to do that other than on the initial CC ability! Don't worry, I can only do this once every 15 seconds from stealth, that's just an eternity. Oh, one other thing, there may be a 12k Fabricant proc somewhere in the mix or something similar."

"Oh btw, we are nerfing crit resistance too, TEEHEE!"

Mayrael · July 2020

buttaface wrote: »

Funny to see how many people in the thread so far have formed and stated opinions without reading the patch notes. Maybe read ALL the sets buff carefully. There's no way many of the sets will make it to live nor should they.

"Hi there! You don't know me but I'm invisible now, and using Mechanical Acuity, a stage 4 vamp passive and toggle, I'm about to hit you with CC and then 100% crit + 900 WD/SD 3-4 LAs at range before you can even think about breaking free! Won't that be fun for you! Oh, forgot, I won't even spend any resources to do that other than on the initial CC ability! Don't worry, I can only do this once every 15 seconds from stealth, that's just an eternity. Oh, one other thing, there may be a 12k Fabricant proc somewhere in the mix or something similar."

"Oh btw, we are nerfing crit resistance too, TEEHEE!"

Nerf of some proc sets is more than sure. But untill its confirmed (and eventually implemented to live) my plan is to cheese tf out those sets

When enough noobs will die and report, maybe ZOS will fix those sets

Naftal · July 2020

If there is no counterplay to "free damage" from procs, what is the counterplay to "free damage" from raw stats like new moon for example? They player doesn't need to do anything special to activate that huge damage boost. They just use their things normally and get free damage...

Ragnaroek93 · July 2020

Naftal wrote: »

If there is no counterplay to "free damage" from procs, what is the counterplay to "free damage" from raw stats like new moon for example? They player doesn't need to do anything special to activate that huge damage boost. They just use their things normally and get free damage...

They need to use their things normally which they wouldn't need to do with proc sets.

Ragnaroek93 · July 2020

fred4 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

they are basically effortless AFK dmg and it doesn't feel satisfying compared to bursting down and opponent with a combo

As a Caluurion and Zaan magblade I take offense. The only way that works is by running a skill combo as well. The former set only procs after a delay, whereas the latter only gradually ramps up. It's not all that strong, at least not in CP where I play, nor is magblade especially strong as a whole (currently). Players routinely mitigate my burst by being tanky, by having shields or by dodge rolling. Calling this AFK damage misrepresents proc sets, or at least my build, making the procs seem stronger than they are.

It will be possible to combine Caluurion with Malacath in future, which it's currently not, but it remains to be seen how strong this turns out in no CP. When you look at Caluurion and Zaan in particular, they are rather oxymoronic, as they grant you 3 lines of crit. That and your innate crit bonuses go to waste on a magblade putting on Malacath.

Basically I reject the argument that all proc sets and all proc builds are unbalanced, nor that they are unsatisfying. Most, if not all, have that 1 second activation time. Furthermore Caluurion seemed almost tailor-made to compensate for weakness of the magblade class. I'm not sure what to make of it's future non-crit activation, which broadens the appeal. It's not something I can readily judge.

I do find magblade easier to play with Caluurion and without Shadow Image and Merciless. It's not just that, though. Caluurion is something that requires no GCDs to maintain. This makes the build extremely fun and reactive to play, even though not atually that strong. My build has an almost zero buff rotation. Everything I do is situational and positional, not bogged down by keeping up buffs or by having to fit my combat around my class' needs, such as building Assassin's Will stacks or being in range and porting back to my Image, before it runs out. I might have been carried by procs as a beginner, but the reason I keep playing this setup is because of the fun playstyle it enables.

I'm sorry to be so specific. I do however think a general statement, such as "proc sets" are bad, is doomed to be proven wrong with counterexamples, of which this is one. Proc sets have been in the game so long. Most, if not all, have been adjusted with activation times that hamper them in PvP. I think the devil's in the details when it comes to what works in an actual build and what's satisfying and what's not. The latter, especially, is in the eye of the beholder. You feel that burst combos without procs make for satisfying gameplay. That, however, is not a good argument, because you can't legislate what other people find fun or satisfying. For me it's the challenge of going into melee range and bursting someone on an extremely squishy build, then getting out alive.

And in the end they'll nerf the class instead of the borrowed power from proc sets. I already see it coming...

fred4 · July 2020

Firstmep wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

My magplar is also ready to rock malacath calurion combo, to delete people withing 2gcds, from 28 meters away xD.

If you're serious, that just shows your lack of experience. You do not delete people like that. You might, if they're engaged in fighting someone else, but even then they tend to shrug it off and keep brawling, at least in CP. I would say a properly specced sniper is more dangerous.

You also have not seen a Caluurion projectile travel, have you? We're talking about far more than 2GCDs here. The patch notes mention a speedup, but we're starting from an extremely slow base value.

You have to be at melee range to make Caluurion work. Toppling Charge could work, but I don't see many templars playing this currently and the set is not changing that much. Now you're committed to a melee fight. Furthermore, breaking free, then dodge rolling is not an unreasonable response to a templar gap closing you. That makes Caluurion miss, due to the 1 second proc delay, and is the reason why I construct my magblade burst differently, fearing when Caluurion actually hits, not beforehand.

I mostly play in no cp, and even now 1 calu proc can easily deal upwards of 7k+ dmg in no cp, and next patch with malacath this is getting way higher.

Also check out Decimus on twitch, he plays ranged magplar and a very effective one at that.

Also i clearly didnt mean that i would delete everyone with this combo, but a lot of ppl are very squishy in no cp right now.

Javelin is a great ranged cc, you can time it with dark flare due to its cast/travel time for a decent burst and beacuse of how knockbacks work, calurion can also land, especially now on pts when you can just start off with for example vamps bane and by the time your javelin hits, calu will be on your target already.

So yes, i have plenty of experience with calu and with ppl using the set, its not meant for melee brawlers, why would you even bring up toppling charge.

If anything you thinking that you need to play melee to make calu work shows YOUR lack of experince.

Look, this is fair enough. You obviously know how to use Caluurion on a ranged templar. I will, however, say that 7K+ damage is not much for something that has a 10 second cooldown, which is my point in response to the original post. You give up stats and fellow nightblades that I talk to rightly point out they'd rather have a stronger Assassin's Will they can fire twice in that time. You don't delete people with the proc either. Not good players in a reasonably fair scenario. You may delete them with a combo that includes the proc, but you put on Malacath, you give up the two crit bonuses from Caluu and the class crit bonuses that nightblade and templar share. I won't be convinced until I actually play it and I agree with Mayrael, Caluurion is simply not strong in a duel, at least not currently on magblade.

In terms of how you play magblade, well, it plays differently. Cloaking up to someone and hitting them with a guaranteed Caluurion proc at close range is absolutely the thing to do. Nightblade is all about control. Incorporating Soul Harvest as well as using AOE Fear during the burst combines the maximum amount of damage I have yet found with the control to get out of melee range again. It's not the only thing I do. I also use it at range, but this is how I generate the most burst on magblade and how I gain most control over the set in terms of the guaranteed crit (currently), predictable delay / travel time and getting people to drop block with Fear.

lucky_Sage · July 2020

Proc sets are way to strong it so dumb that 1 dot proc set can deal more dmg than all my dks class dot put together

Firstmep · July 2020

Some testing on Unleashed Terror,

Dueled a random necro, he said he had around 20k resist, plus ghost, plus necro dot reduce passive.

This set was ticking on him for 1.6k a second, this is on a scuffed template setup, on a stamplar that has no passives that boost proc dmg.

Seems good to me.

Mortiis13 · July 2020

I think proc sets getting too powerfull. But that's maybe to carry bad players. Sadly those who have a better understanding of the game will abuse the sh... out of it.

FirmamentOfStars · July 2020

I agree with OP and wrote a rather long post here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537402/pvp-removal-of-skilled-gameplay#latest

The next update will bring free and in many cases unavoidable damage and it brings a lot of it. Applying proc sets' damage will be easier than every before, since most proc chances and conditions were taken off. I dont think this will be healthy at all for the PvP population.

rumple9 · July 2020

I love the changes hope they all make it to live

Rianai · July 2020

Gotta appeal to the [snip] crowd ...

[edited for baiting]

universal_wrath · July 2020

Wing wrote: »

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

Fury, bloodspawn, staunt and many other buff sets like that are proc sets, many skilled players use them. BGs right now are full of proc sets wither it is skilled players or noobs almost everyone uses some sort of proc set, atleast in EU server.

Rianai · July 2020

universal_wrath wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

Fury, bloodspawn, staunt and many other buff sets like that are proc sets, many skilled players use them. BGs right now are full of proc sets wither it is skilled players or noobs almost everyone uses some sort of proc set, atleast in EU server.

"Proc set" usually refers to dmg proc sets (deals X dmg when Y happens), not stat proc sets, since they work fundamentally different. And yes, many good players use (dmg) proc sets. Especially in nocp pvp.

Mayrael · July 2020

Rianai wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

Fury, bloodspawn, staunt and many other buff sets like that are proc sets, many skilled players use them. BGs right now are full of proc sets wither it is skilled players or noobs almost everyone uses some sort of proc set, atleast in EU server.

"Proc set" usually refers to dmg proc sets (deals X dmg when Y happens), not stat proc sets, since they work fundamentally different. And yes, many good players use (dmg) proc sets. Especially in nocp pvp.

Join the dark side

use them, fight fire with fire

stop resisting

idk · July 2020

Wing wrote: »

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

Skilled players tend to avoid proc sets because they can do more damage using other sets. Think about it, a skill player wants to perform at their best. Considering monster sets have been part of many BiS builds over the years top players are willing to use proc sets.

Granted, I do not like builds based on proc sets as it is a crutch, as you pointed out, but as long as they do not perform better than an average player can then I am fine with them being in the game.