Proc sets are very concerning

FirmamentOfStars

idk wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

proc damage is idiot proof though.

thats the point, its the blue shell, the noob tube.

its something skilled players would never consider using because we know the mechanics of the game and how to use better options.
however with enough decent proc sets a potato should be able to occasionally light attack someone to death on accident.

i dont think malacath should affect it though, thats probably a glitch

Skilled players tend to avoid proc sets because they can do more damage using other sets. Think about it, a skill player wants to perform at their best. Considering monster sets have been part of many BiS builds over the years top players are willing to use proc sets.

Granted, I do not like builds based on proc sets as it is a crutch, as you pointed out, but as long as they do not perform better than an average player can then I am fine with them being in the game.

The problem is that even skilled players most likely will get more damage from using proc sets than stat sets. Their offense is better, but defense weaker. One proc set can increase your overall dps up to 20% depending on the set.

Overwhelming can deal like 10-15% of a players dps, but also adds sustain and more dps via minor vulnerability. Grothdarr is slightly above the dps category of overwhelming (without elfbane). Venomous smite contributes 20%+ of a players dpa and in the new patch there are more sets doing the same dps as this one.

I fought skilled players and they are mostly more oppressive when using proc sets, since its a dps win. 500 more weapon or spell damage wont increase your dps by the same amount a damage proc gives.

Also the malacaths band of brutality makes proc sets even more populat and stronger. Even skilled players go full ham on proc builds atm and it will get worse. There are some skilled players not using them, because they kind of want to keep their „honor“ of playing „properly“. They just feel bad about not doing their work themselves. But as said, even good players use them already, because they perform better with them.

Kadoin

Naftal wrote: »

If there is no counterplay to "free damage" from procs, what is the counterplay to "free damage" from raw stats like new moon for example? They player doesn't need to do anything special to activate that huge damage boost. They just use their things normally and get free damage...

Are you for reals? New moon is not free, it has a cost increase, despite it being too small

Anyway, exactly why should proc sets keep getting buffed, but actual players skills get nerfed every patch? If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't see these changes as a huge problem, but it is the case and it is a problem.

Stx

I think proc sets are fun and they usually dont change your rotation at all so I dont see how they really hurt anything.

I do see them as being a huge problem in pvp. I do not think malacath should increase the damage of proc sets... since they cant crit anyway.

When you can build a no cp malacath warden to deal 10k damage with sellestirx and 20k damage with doylemish theres a problem.

Ragnaroek93

So now we nerf New Moon set (a stat based set) while leaving proc sets untouched. This is just ridiculous. I don't care anymore, go ahead and copy the same mistakes which WoW did considering combat design. PvP will be just dead next patch.

Foto1

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

So now we nerf New Moon set (a stat based set) while leaving proc sets untouched. This is just ridiculous. I don't care anymore, go ahead and copy the same mistakes which WoW did considering combat design. PvP will be just dead next patch.

the meta changes in every patch. adapt or die )

Mettaricana

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I mean, they're already extremely strong on the live server and now most of them get buffed? I don't think that this is good game design, they are basically effortless AFK dmg and it doesn't feel satisfying compared to bursting down and opponent with a combo or just overwhelm the opponent with good timing on dots and pressure. Dieing to procs is also only frustrating and most of these proc sets lack proper counterplay (you can dodge and block most attacks but you can't do that with many proc sets unless you are a Nb and can cloak them or purge them). We had a proc meta years ago and most people didn't enjoy it. WoW has a proc meta too right now and PvP participation is at an all time low and everybody hates it. Learn from these mistakes. Maybe add a buff to Battlespirit to reduce proc dmg by 60% in PvP or something like that or don't allow Malacath ring to increase the damage from procs.

That said, some classes got pruned down so much that they don't work anymore without proc sets, like magden, magcro etc. Nb got buffed and looks quite powerful now but some other classes still need love and stam necro needs to be tuned down a bit, permanent uptime on major defile is just ridiculous, especially with proc sets.

This game always had a weird focus on sets more than skills... like we got executes spammables and light attack weaving etc but it all hits like a wet noodle compared to proc sets oh look at that sweet wrecking crit of 20k then x set triggers 28k.... why bother trying anymore may as well slot malacath and as many high damage proc sets..

ItsJustHashtag

Foto1 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

So now we nerf New Moon set (a stat based set) while leaving proc sets untouched. This is just ridiculous. I don't care anymore, go ahead and copy the same mistakes which WoW did considering combat design. PvP will be just dead next patch.

the meta changes in every patch. adapt or die )

That’s the thing though, metas shouldn’t change every 3 months because the devs.

Ragnaroek93

Foto1 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

So now we nerf New Moon set (a stat based set) while leaving proc sets untouched. This is just ridiculous. I don't care anymore, go ahead and copy the same mistakes which WoW did considering combat design. PvP will be just dead next patch.

the meta changes in every patch. adapt or die )

It's not about adapting, it's about preventing a horrible meta.

Dusk_Coven

Removing proc mechanics is about reducing server load. They basically said so. Twice. Once in the intro to the combat section and again in the sets section. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6859472/#Comment_6859472

Developer Comment: As part of the ongoing efforts to help improve performance, all item sets in the game have been updated to use better logic when attempting to determine their proc conditions with your actions, and will send significantly less messages to the server (ultimately being less taxing) when they fail to meet their conditions. We’ve also audited the vast majority of item sets in terms of their power, so make sure to check out the itemization section, and bring a snack!

In addition to item sets, many abilities have received backend improvements to their scripting to help reduce unnecessary effects, checks, and logic parsing, and will now more accurately follow their described behaviors, such as proc conditions.

Item Sets
Developer Comment: As mentioned in the intro, all item sets have been audited to reduce their implications on performance. Proc sets will no longer do additional range checks on events that already passed one (such as an event triggering off of a Light or Heavy Attack), will no longer send messages to the server when they fail or are on cooldown, and are properly labeled as a proc set to ensure they do not trigger other proc sets. During this audit, we have also brought almost every set in the game under our set bonus efficiency standard, which breaks down a set into its total worth of stats provided, plus modifiers such as how difficult or specific the set is to use/engage with! Due to the staggering size of this list, we’ve broken up the changes into more specific categories.

Additionally, we have adjusted all item sets that have radius checks for friendly targets to no longer target all allies, but instead target group members only. This will reduce the amount of parsing and messaging dealt by the server and reduce the staggering power many of these sets can enable in non-grouped content.

This in turn is about trying to rescue PvP because there really isn't any problem in PvE play.

Which is totally the wrong move because it is a radical move that affects far too much of the game, both PvE and PvP.
And as usual trying to duct tape PvP results in wrecking PvE.

What they should have done is completely disallow a lot of problematic sets and skills in PvP, especially those that have been responsible for a lot of complaints.
Complaints that led ZOS to make other questionable balancing decisions -- e.g., "unkillable" builds leading to ZOS adding another -10% to healing in Battle Spirit.

Then keep chopping out more and more sets and skills until performance isn't an issue. Or they discover that procs weren't responsible at all.

ZOS continues to try to save PvP but from the very start of even having PvP has made short-sighted and wrong-headed moves over and over.

Adenoma

The crazy thing with procs is that you can make your entire build survivability focused and it doesn’t take a crazy amount of damage inherently in the build to be able to lot someone with procs, then pop off an execute and an ult.

I’ve already come up with a build that hits you with initially 24k proc damage over 1 second in no-CP using just a S&B bar. At the same time it’s got access to absurd heals and high resists. Sure, my tool tips on non health-based heals like vigor aren’t amazing, but I can durdle around for the next 10s and LOS without issue and my sustain is great because I didn’t have to invest at all in damage.

Literally without doing anything besides Jewelry glyphs, no nirn weapons, you’ll end up with almost 4K weapon damage using medium proc sets.

Milli_Rabbit

Look, all you need to succeed in any group play is DK chains. It aggros players, scares the hell out of newbs, and gives your group a target when you pull someone out of the Zerg

katorga

buttaface wrote: »

Funny to see how many people in the thread so far have formed and stated opinions without reading the patch notes. Maybe read ALL the sets buff carefully. There's no way many of the sets will make it to live nor should they.

"Hi there! You don't know me but I'm invisible now, and using Mechanical Acuity, a stage 4 vamp passive and toggle, I'm about to hit you with CC and then 100% crit + 900 WD/SD 3-4 LAs at range before you can even think about breaking free! Won't that be fun for you! Oh, forgot, I won't even spend any resources to do that other than on the initial CC ability! Don't worry, I can only do this once every 15 seconds from stealth, that's just an eternity. Oh, one other thing, there may be a 12k Fabricant proc somewhere in the mix or something similar."

"Oh btw, we are nerfing crit resistance too, TEEHEE!"

Bingo. MA will be great, especially for NB who also got a ridiculous extra 10% crit damage/heal and 258 dmg from flank buff. If I read the description right, it will be 100% crit chance for heals too. I think NB will be top dog next patch. Proc sets have finite limits...their damage can only go so high, and you can only wear so many. A crit build can keep pushing well past the proc set limits.

Otherwise meh. The forums complain about every patch, ZOS nerfs, forums complain about the very result they demanded. Damage is too high, Players are too tanky, healing is over the top, procs are too strong....and so on, endlessly, for six years.

pma_pacifier

Pvp will become braindead consisting of low skilled, low apm players that find it too unsatisfying to climb in skill and abuse proc meta.

End result would be Xv1 zerging with proc sets bursting players that invest time and effort to git gud. I guess we'd want to encourage such behavior. Seems fun!!!

Kadoin

katorga wrote: »

Bingo. MA will be great, especially for NB who also got a ridiculous extra 10% crit damage/heal and 258 dmg from flank buff. If I read the description right, it will be 100% crit chance for heals too. I think NB will be top dog next patch. Proc sets have finite limits...their damage can only go so high, and you can only wear so many. A crit build can keep pushing well past the proc set limits.

I can verify this is a false statement on live, and will be even more false next patch.

You can push past the limits of proc sets only if you sacrifice everything a proc build gets to keep: damage, defense, sustain, passive healing, bar slots; giving them the innate mathematical advantage over you. Then, that's ignoring cost increase poisons and other sustain issues + things like defile.

It simply isn't a true statement in reality.

We've also seen how far proc sets pulled ahead of stat builds in pvp the last times they were overbuffed (One Tamriel, DoT Meta + Sloads, every tank meta, etc.). Even now on live server proc builds are better than any other build, esp. if the proc build has defile and their opponent doesn't.