Well as I main both vet tanks and dps I can see both sides of the coin. Having to slot either a bow or a frost staff is ok in theory but that will mean losing resistances block mitigation and stats so for vet trials, time dps did their bit and use sharpened to make up for the loss of 800 odd pen from crusher.

I can see two fanged snake making a come back, and after I deconstructed all my tfs gold jewels and weapons as well xd.

I have run vet craglorn trials and hof without issue, leader board nonsense I leave to players without a life. Never gonna get me running a staff as the damage shield is pathetic, would be viable if light attacks taunted but they don't. Not the fricking tanks job to concuss with a shock staff, that is the healers. Dps in most vet trial guilds are just bad players expecting the tank to debuff everything. Greedy for dps so yea I have done them with no real sustain issues, sounds like you run with another idiot trial guild period. Dont call me out when sounds more like you haven't run vets yourself as a tank. I don't run with meta like most sheep in this game and still get it all done, without issue.

paulychan wrote: »

commdt wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.

Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?

Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.

Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield

This can't be going live, can it?
That can't be a thing

It can, and it is...

As stupid as it sounds.

Maybe people will run ice staff on frontbar, lightning staff as backbar.........

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.

The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.

I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.

^

Nailed it.

paulychan wrote: »

commdt wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.

Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?

Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.

Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield

This can't be going live, can it?
That can't be a thing

It will. And it is a good thing

@irswat Did you try using Bone Shield over infused crusher?

may the Night Mother guide your steps.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.

The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.

I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.

^

Nailed it.

But in practice when you sign up for trial as tank you "report" your sets to group leader, while on dps nobody cares what sets you are running, at maximum you'll be asked of parse screenshot from combat metrics.

The trials I've attended where they don't care what my dps brings also don't care what the tank wears so long as they stay alive. If you're going for score pushes, there's a great deal less freedom than progression or even normals (which is what some 90% of the community is going to be doing anyway mind you).

Trust me, there's a list of acceptable sets and strategies allowed in higher end score raids (rip werewolf build, I hardly knew yee).

soynegroyque wrote: »

paulychan wrote: »

commdt wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.

Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?

Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.

Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield

This can't be going live, can it?
That can't be a thing

It can, and it is...

As stupid as it sounds.

Yikes. I had crusher on all my backbar staves already so I guess I better rethink my rotation and get that uptime happening. At least the lower debuff does not overide the higher rebuff anymore...
Or am I wrong again?

Excelsus wrote: »

I play tank. I love tank. But this game is absolutely insane in its 'optimization' and how support sets are dumped on healer and tank

Cuz healers and tanks are support roles.....?

Alkosh for example, its medium armor, it gives weapon crit, it was designed for dps. But we make tanks wear it cuz 'moar dps' so we can skip mechanics that are too hard to learn.

Lemme tell you why tanks wear it.

Currently, Alkosh does two things.

1. Shreds 3010 armor
2. 12k bonus Physical damage

Who's in the front of the line to take synergies? The tank. So that 3010 armor shred is a no-brainer. But you're looking at constant streams of 12k physical damage and drooling, right?

Here's the problem.

Line-Breaker (the armor debuff) lasts 10 seconds. It does not stack. This means that while Line-Breaker is active, taking another synergy does not shred another 3010 armor. It's 3010 armor shredded for 10 seconds and then you take another synergy.

This means that that entire half of the proc is completely wasted by multiple players hitting a synergy during that 10 second duration.

But you might say, "Oh well that's a continuous stream of 12k physical damage over 10 seconds over and over again though."

And you'd be right.

But that bonus physical damage will never crit. Ever. Because it's a proc. That instantly makes it worse than sets with 5 piece bonuses that increase damage or crit damage or crit chance.

Compare Alkosh to Tooth of Lokkestiiz for example.

15 seconds of major slayer is a buff to everything you do and if you crit for 12k at least once during that time (and you will) then you've gotten more out of this set in a single second that you would have for Alkosh's entire proc duration. Not to mention repeatedly taking synergies doesn't make any aspect of the proc redundant, as it would with Alkosh.

So no........some of these sets aren't worn by tanks because endgame players can't be bothered to learn mechanics.

Tanks wear Alkosh because it's an incredibly important armor debuff and because your DPS will literally perform worse with it. Absolutely 100% worse. It's not about mechanic-skipping. It's not even about serious optimization.

It's just basic math and knowledge of some simple systems (i.e. proc sets can't crit).


We pile dps sets on tanks, lock them into using warhorn instead of the actual tank ultimates, then expect them to never die without any of the actual tank sets, hold all aggro all the time and be responsible for everyone and everything.


Define "tank ultimates" because there's a wide variety of ultimates that a tank might use depending on the content they're in and the group makeup.

But tanks typically use Aggressive Warhorn because, as a support role, they're supporting their DPS by enabling them to do more damage. Same reason a healer might use it.

Supports aren't there to do damage and other ultimates should be used only if truly needed.

It's honestly a L2P issue if you can't graduate out of using something like Magma Shell all the time.

Again, simple math. DPS lose damage if they slot an ultimate that doesn't do damage. /shrug

How much would a raid really suffer if one dps used alkosh/war machine/morag tong/torags and infused crusher? Would allow a dps without perfect rotation to still be helpful and let tank breath and wear that lunar bastion set zos designed for them.

It wouldn't suffer too terribly but there'd be zero reason why you'd put all that on a DPS. The fact that anyone would suffer at all is reason enough not to do that.

You're talking about being different for the sake of it and not because it makes any kind of sense.

Also......Lunar Bastion is terrible.

Maybe it was good back when it came out? I dunno.

Simple math and knowledge of how the game works is what leads to the optimization that you hate for some reason.

Weird double post from me up there somehow.

Would delete if I could. lol

GallantGuardian wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

Yeah, as long as you don't mind making fights take longer and be more difficult for everyone involved, there's nothing wrong with it.

Fights won’t take longer if dps replace one of their enchantments with crusher

They would because front bar is usually a damage enchant and back bar is usually the weapon/spell damage enchant. Thats true for almost all DPS builds as tehy can get an easy ~400 extra out of this.