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Problem with Infused Crusher on Tank

irswat
irswat
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If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.
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  • SammyFable
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    Well, that is true for any enchant.
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  • irswat
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    I misunderstood how enchant worked. Yea but with sword and board you can pick with add is getting the crusher, but with blockade you cant
    The Lord Jesus Christ saved me from sin and darkness. His love has transformed me so that I am a new creature in Him. May you find Him too, and experience His richness and goodness!
  • redspecter23
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    You don't necessarily need to proc the crusher with the wall. You can use a light attack, but it will obviously get messy if you're using wall in your rotation as the crusher will eventually fall onto an add if they are around. In boss fights with multiple adds, what will be the best course of action?
  • GallantGuardian
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    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it
  • ATreeGnome
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    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    Yeah, as long as you don't mind making fights take longer and be more difficult for everyone involved, there's nothing wrong with it.
  • DaveMoeDee
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    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    As a tank, I don't care who does it. I just want stuff dying fast. Especially when doing pledges where I'm running a dungeon I've run too many times already.
  • GallantGuardian
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    ATreeGnome wrote: »
    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    Yeah, as long as you don't mind making fights take longer and be more difficult for everyone involved, there's nothing wrong with it.

    Fights won’t take longer if dps replace one of their enchantments with crusher
  • irswat
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    You obviously dont do end game. No respectable end game raid leader would accept a tank who refuses to run infused crusher torugs
    The Lord Jesus Christ saved me from sin and darkness. His love has transformed me so that I am a new creature in Him. May you find Him too, and experience His richness and goodness!
  • John_Falstaff
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    ATreeGnome wrote: »
    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    Yeah, as long as you don't mind making fights take longer and be more difficult for everyone involved, there's nothing wrong with it.

    Fights won’t take longer if dps replace one of their enchantments with crusher

    They will. Simply because that DD will not be doing extra damage with a damage-dealing enchant that was supposed to be there. It's a no-brainer.

    @irswat , issue with blockade is that you can't control precisely which target the enchantment will proc on, it will choose target during the cast (the closest one), and will keep proccing on that target until blockade is recast or target dies.
  • irswat
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    It does in fact proc on closest target? Shouldnt be an issue then. I was thinking of situations like stone atro, zmaja, mage, ozara, etc where there are other adds that you wouldnt want crusher to proc on stealing the proc
    The Lord Jesus Christ saved me from sin and darkness. His love has transformed me so that I am a new creature in Him. May you find Him too, and experience His richness and goodness!
  • John_Falstaff
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    @irswat , it's not official, but yes, from how it seems, it will proc on the closest one - and will keep proccing on it even if you move around. I think it might make an issue when adds are close (the distance calculation algorithm seems to be finicky, never know which target it will think to be the closest one), more so if you've just chained in and rooted the adds. So you can control it to a degree, but probably will be a bit more tricky and less reliable than with one-handed.
  • irswat
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    Thanks. Would still love to run infused crusher on s+b. Hope zos changes this an altmer sustain nerf before release
    The Lord Jesus Christ saved me from sin and darkness. His love has transformed me so that I am a new creature in Him. May you find Him too, and experience His richness and goodness!
  • Excelsus
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    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    This.

    I play tank. I love tank. But this game is absolutely insane in its 'optimization' and how support sets are dumped on healer and tank so dps can relax and parse like spoiled and preened hollywood actors.

    Alkosh for example, its medium armor, it gives weapon crit, it was designed for dps. But we make tanks wear it cuz 'moar dps' so we can skip mechanics that are too hard to learn. We pile dps sets on tanks, lock them into using warhorn instead of the actual tank ultimates, then expect them to never die without any of the actual tank sets, hold all aggro all the time and be responsible for everyone and everything.

    Then wonder why no one tanks in this game and dps queue is sooooooo long. How much would a raid really suffer if one dps used alkosh/war machine/morag tong/torags and infused crusher? Would allow a dps without perfect rotation to still be helpful and let tank breath and wear that lunar bastion set zos designed for them.
  • ATomiX96
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    irswat wrote: »
    I misunderstood how enchant worked. Yea but with sword and board you can pick with add is getting the crusher, but with blockade you cant

    you can, blockade enchant procs on the closest enemy to the initial point of the blockade.
  • Vermethys
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    Weaving usually fixes the problem of Crusher being applied to a low-priority mob during a boss fight. I always weave light attacks, so when it's time to reapply my Blockade, I fire a light attack at the boss then drop my blockade -- the light attack would guarantee applying the Crusher enchantment on the boss. If mobs remain around the boss, I swap to my ice staff and light attack the boss every ~4 seconds.
    Edited by Vermethys on February 21, 2019 10:27PM
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  • Bladerunner1
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    Excelsus wrote: »
    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    This.

    I play tank. I love tank. But this game is absolutely insane in its 'optimization' and how support sets are dumped on healer and tank so dps can relax and parse like spoiled and preened hollywood actors.

    Alkosh for example, its medium armor, it gives weapon crit, it was designed for dps. But we make tanks wear it cuz 'moar dps' so we can skip mechanics that are too hard to learn. We pile dps sets on tanks, lock them into using warhorn instead of the actual tank ultimates, then expect them to never die without any of the actual tank sets, hold all aggro all the time and be responsible for everyone and everything.

    Then wonder why no one tanks in this game and dps queue is sooooooo long. How much would a raid really suffer if one dps used alkosh/war machine/morag tong/torags and infused crusher? Would allow a dps without perfect rotation to still be helpful and let tank breath and wear that lunar bastion set zos designed for them.

    So a Stam player slots Crusher, they trade around 4.5k group buffed dps by not slotting berserker. So you could say that a tank is adding 4.5kdps to a trial parse by wearing crusher instead of a DPS wearing crusher.

    If a DPS slots Alkosh instead of Yokeda it's around 5.5kdps tradeoff

    Morag Tong wouldn't look as bad since it doesn't duplicate a minor slayer buff like Alkosh, Torugs would be pretty bad since it only offers one stat buff.

    People can say what they want about it, but the buff from a tank wearing crusher instead of one DPS applying crusher by casting endless hail directly over the center of the boss isn't a single percent of the total trial damage. Yet that less than 1% DPS somehow shapes the entire tanking meta build into slotting weird weapons and casting strange skills.
    Edited by Bladerunner1 on February 22, 2019 5:26PM
  • DoobZ69
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    This is a problem because this game was supposedly designed without tank/dps/heal normal design so tanks aren't really tanks and healers aren't really healers and the only thing that counts is DPS. So taunt-spamming-DPS-boosting-monkeys we are. And we do it for free.
  • commdt
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    If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants

    Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it

    The main question is "what for"? Do you have any better idea of an enchantment tank can put on his weapons to make a group more effective?
    If so, then I might agree, but it will make things very complicated for DPS. 2 crushers dont stack and you can always run dungeoons with another group where DPS can have or don't have Crusher, so basically you force all DDs to carry 2 weapons for each setup: one with crusher and another without, or re-enchant their weapon every time. Of course no one in PUG party will do this, so you'll end up with complete mess
    Rawr
  • WhyMustItBe
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    irswat wrote: »
    If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.

    Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?

    Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.
  • commdt
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    irswat wrote: »
    If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.

    Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?

    Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.

    Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield
    Rawr
  • Gnortranermara
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    It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. Don't trust anyone who tells you otherwise. Unless you run with an oddball group where everyone chooses to optimize differently, any tank who fails to strip armor is gimping the entire raid and very likely has no idea what he's doing. It is not the DPS' job to provide this debuff, because they don't stack, and which DPS to run it would have to be decided before each raid, and people would have to swap enchants all the time and would never know in advance how much penetration to expect in the raid. That's why tanks do it as a near-universally accepted norm, and DPS allocate their CP around this expected norm. After Puncture, the second-most important penetration debuff raiders expect from every PvE tank is Infused crusher. Optionally, add Torug's or Alkosh, depending on circumstances and personal choice and raid needs.

    In the current PTS, if you run it on your sword, you'll lose half the power, so it's better to run it on Destro if you have one. Blockade might proc it on the wrong target, but that's just the way things are right now. In your rotation, when you go to your backbar, try to squeeze in a light attack (to proc the debuff) on the intended target before dropping blockade. If your group has decent DPS, the adds won't stay around to soak up your Crushers for very long, anyway, so don't worry too much about that. As soon as they're gone it'll go back to the boss.
  • paulychan
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    commdt wrote: »
    irswat wrote: »
    If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.

    Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?

    Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.

    Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield

    This can't be going live, can it?
    That can't be a thing
  • usmcjdking
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    It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. Don't trust anyone who tells you otherwise. Unless you run with an oddball group where everyone chooses to optimize differently, any tank who fails to strip armor is gimping the entire raid and very likely has no idea what he's doing. It is not the DPS' job to provide this debuff, because they don't stack, and which DPS to run it would have to be decided before each raid, and people would have to swap enchants all the time and would never know in advance how much penetration to expect in the raid. That's why tanks do it as a near-universally accepted norm, and DPS allocate their CP around this expected norm. After Puncture, the second-most important penetration debuff raiders expect from every PvE tank is Infused crusher. Optionally, add Torug's or Alkosh, depending on circumstances and personal choice and raid needs.

    In the current PTS, if you run it on your sword, you'll lose half the power, so it's better to run it on Destro if you have one. Blockade might proc it on the wrong target, but that's just the way things are right now. In your rotation, when you go to your backbar, try to squeeze in a light attack (to proc the debuff) on the intended target before dropping blockade. If your group has decent DPS, the adds won't stay around to soak up your Crushers for very long, anyway, so don't worry too much about that. As soon as they're gone it'll go back to the boss.

    Errrrrrrrrrrr; this statement is false.

    Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.
    0331
    0602
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. Don't trust anyone who tells you otherwise. Unless you run with an oddball group where everyone chooses to optimize differently, any tank who fails to strip armor is gimping the entire raid and very likely has no idea what he's doing. It is not the DPS' job to provide this debuff, because they don't stack, and which DPS to run it would have to be decided before each raid, and people would have to swap enchants all the time and would never know in advance how much penetration to expect in the raid. That's why tanks do it as a near-universally accepted norm, and DPS allocate their CP around this expected norm. After Puncture, the second-most important penetration debuff raiders expect from every PvE tank is Infused crusher. Optionally, add Torug's or Alkosh, depending on circumstances and personal choice and raid needs.

    In the current PTS, if you run it on your sword, you'll lose half the power, so it's better to run it on Destro if you have one. Blockade might proc it on the wrong target, but that's just the way things are right now. In your rotation, when you go to your backbar, try to squeeze in a light attack (to proc the debuff) on the intended target before dropping blockade. If your group has decent DPS, the adds won't stay around to soak up your Crushers for very long, anyway, so don't worry too much about that. As soon as they're gone it'll go back to the boss.

    Errrrrrrrrrrr; this statement is false.

    Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.

    We can start at Pierce Armor (you know, THE taunt) having stripping armor both in its name and function, keep on going through tank meta sets like Alkosh and Torug's and end up on NMG actually being BiS set for tanks for some specific situations (like score runs in vDSA) before it was made irrelevant for majority of the game.
  • usmcjdking
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    Royaji wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. Don't trust anyone who tells you otherwise. Unless you run with an oddball group where everyone chooses to optimize differently, any tank who fails to strip armor is gimping the entire raid and very likely has no idea what he's doing. It is not the DPS' job to provide this debuff, because they don't stack, and which DPS to run it would have to be decided before each raid, and people would have to swap enchants all the time and would never know in advance how much penetration to expect in the raid. That's why tanks do it as a near-universally accepted norm, and DPS allocate their CP around this expected norm. After Puncture, the second-most important penetration debuff raiders expect from every PvE tank is Infused crusher. Optionally, add Torug's or Alkosh, depending on circumstances and personal choice and raid needs.

    In the current PTS, if you run it on your sword, you'll lose half the power, so it's better to run it on Destro if you have one. Blockade might proc it on the wrong target, but that's just the way things are right now. In your rotation, when you go to your backbar, try to squeeze in a light attack (to proc the debuff) on the intended target before dropping blockade. If your group has decent DPS, the adds won't stay around to soak up your Crushers for very long, anyway, so don't worry too much about that. As soon as they're gone it'll go back to the boss.

    Errrrrrrrrrrr; this statement is false.

    Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.

    We can start at Pierce Armor (you know, THE taunt) having stripping armor both in its name and function, keep on going through tank meta sets like Alkosh and Torug's and end up on NMG actually being BiS set for tanks for some specific situations (like score runs in vDSA) before it was made irrelevant for majority of the game.

    Sure.

    Doesn't change the fact that the statement clearly said It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. This is simply untrue for the majority of this game's life.
    0331
    0602
  • idk
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    SammyFable wrote: »
    Well, that is true for any enchant.

    This and we do not need to add more to things that proc.

    Basically if crusher could proc on multiple enemies that means every single enchant can proc on multiple enemies which puts more of our damage into procs. Zos already had to tone back enchants procing.
  • Royaji
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. Don't trust anyone who tells you otherwise. Unless you run with an oddball group where everyone chooses to optimize differently, any tank who fails to strip armor is gimping the entire raid and very likely has no idea what he's doing. It is not the DPS' job to provide this debuff, because they don't stack, and which DPS to run it would have to be decided before each raid, and people would have to swap enchants all the time and would never know in advance how much penetration to expect in the raid. That's why tanks do it as a near-universally accepted norm, and DPS allocate their CP around this expected norm. After Puncture, the second-most important penetration debuff raiders expect from every PvE tank is Infused crusher. Optionally, add Torug's or Alkosh, depending on circumstances and personal choice and raid needs.

    In the current PTS, if you run it on your sword, you'll lose half the power, so it's better to run it on Destro if you have one. Blockade might proc it on the wrong target, but that's just the way things are right now. In your rotation, when you go to your backbar, try to squeeze in a light attack (to proc the debuff) on the intended target before dropping blockade. If your group has decent DPS, the adds won't stay around to soak up your Crushers for very long, anyway, so don't worry too much about that. As soon as they're gone it'll go back to the boss.

    Errrrrrrrrrrr; this statement is false.

    Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.

    We can start at Pierce Armor (you know, THE taunt) having stripping armor both in its name and function, keep on going through tank meta sets like Alkosh and Torug's and end up on NMG actually being BiS set for tanks for some specific situations (like score runs in vDSA) before it was made irrelevant for majority of the game.

    Sure.

    Doesn't change the fact that the statement clearly said It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's. This is simply untrue for the majority of this game's life.

    Since Morrowind and changes to NMG and Sunderflame the only source of armor reduction that is not done by tanks is PotL that is usually relagated to a stamplar since Minor debuffs are hard to come by.
  • Gnortranermara
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.

    What a joke. My comment was that it IS the tank's role. Yours was that it "has never been" the tank role.

    What are the facts?

    1. It is the tank's role.
    2. It has been the tank's role for quite a while.

    I never claimed it was "always" the tank's role, just that it IS. And indeed, it still is.
  • usmcjdking
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.

    What a joke. My comment was that it IS the tank's role. Yours was that it "has never been" the tank role.

    What are the facts?

    1. It is the tank's role.
    2. It has been the tank's role for quite a while.

    I never claimed it was "always" the tank's role, just that it IS. And indeed, it still is.

    But it still isn't as of now. The only tank capable of supplying every armor debuff is templar tank - which is dead as dirt anyways. Minor frac/breach is provided by other roles which are, incidentally, not tanks. Which means that there are other roles which provide armor debuffs other than tank.

    Which means this statement:

    It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's.

    Is simply untrue.
    Edited by usmcjdking on February 24, 2019 12:59AM
    0331
    0602
  • Gnortranermara
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    Don't play dumb. Context-dropping is a form of deception. The context of that statement is a discussion about Infused Crusher where some people claimed that DPS should slot the enchant. In this game, where unique debuffs do not stack, it is the long-established and wide-spread norm for the tank, not the DPS, to slot the Infused Crusher. That does not mean that there are no other armor debuffs in the game that other people might use, and your strained misinterpretation is all in your own head.
    Edited by Gnortranermara on February 24, 2019 1:09AM
This discussion has been closed.