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Problem with Infused Crusher on Tank
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karios525✭✭✭Well as I main both vet tanks and dps I can see both sides of the coin. Having to slot either a bow or a frost staff is ok in theory but that will mean losing resistances block mitigation and stats so for vet trials, time dps did their bit and use sharpened to make up for the loss of 800 odd pen from crusher.
I can see two fanged snake making a come back, and after I deconstructed all my tfs gold jewels and weapons as well xd.0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well as I main both vet tanks and dps I can see both sides of the coin. Having to slot either a bow or a frost staff is ok in theory but that will mean losing resistances block mitigation and stats so for vet trials, time dps did their bit and use sharpened to make up for the loss of 800 odd pen from crusher.
I can see two fanged snake making a come back, and after I deconstructed all my tfs gold jewels and weapons as well xd.
I don't want to be rude, but if you have not been slotting an ice staff (and in most cases even lightning staff) on your tank for about a year already - you were not maining a vet tank.2 -
karios525✭✭✭I have run vet craglorn trials and hof without issue, leader board nonsense I leave to players without a life. Never gonna get me running a staff as the damage shield is pathetic, would be viable if light attacks taunted but they don't. Not the fricking tanks job to concuss with a shock staff, that is the healers. Dps in most vet trial guilds are just bad players expecting the tank to debuff everything. Greedy for dps so yea I have done them with no real sustain issues, sounds like you run with another idiot trial guild period. Dont call me out when sounds more like you haven't run vets yourself as a tank. I don't run with meta like most sheep in this game and still get it all done, without issue.2
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karios525✭✭✭By the way my warden tank hits 15k hps to help support the healers, and again I rarely struggle for sustain. My sets I admit are non meta but everything gets minor maim within x amount of meters of me, support heals and buff the group.1
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Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have run vet craglorn trials and hof without issue, leader board nonsense I leave to players without a life. Never gonna get me running a staff as the damage shield is pathetic, would be viable if light attacks taunted but they don't. Not the fricking tanks job to concuss with a shock staff, that is the healers. Dps in most vet trial guilds are just bad players expecting the tank to debuff everything. Greedy for dps so yea I have done them with no real sustain issues, sounds like you run with another idiot trial guild period. Dont call me out when sounds more like you haven't run vets yourself as a tank. I don't run with meta like most sheep in this game and still get it all done, without issue.
Oh sorry, you are from the "tanks are special snowlfakes and DDs are all greedy a*sholes" brigade. Carry on.7 -
irswat✭✭✭✭I personally agree with the person who said that sword and board != dual wield and shouldn't be subjected to same enchant nerf.2
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soynegroyque✭✭✭WhyMustItBe wrote: »If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.
Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?
Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.
Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield
This can't be going live, can it?
That can't be a thing
It can, and it is...
As stupid as it sounds.
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satanio✭✭✭✭Well as I main both vet tanks and dps I can see both sides of the coin. Having to slot either a bow or a frost staff is ok in theory but that will mean losing resistances block mitigation and stats so for vet trials, time dps did their bit and use sharpened to make up for the loss of 800 odd pen from crusher.
I can see two fanged snake making a come back, and after I deconstructed all my tfs gold jewels and weapons as well xd.
I don't want to be rude, but if you have not been slotting an ice staff (and in most cases even lightning staff) on your tank for about a year already - you were not maining a vet tank.
That could easily be an incorrect assumption. Fact that most of the tanks recommended staves on back bar is something completely different and it doesn't invalidate other tank builds without them.
Stop defending "weird" tweaks plz.1 -
LioraValkyrie✭✭✭✭The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.
The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.
I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc
Founder of The Lollygaggers
Creator of the 1-bar vMA build
World first solo vFH
Unchained Altmer Sorc Tank
Visit me on YouTube! Mistress of Apocrypha ESO7 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.
The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.
I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.
^
Nailed it.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »LioraValkyrie wrote: »The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.
The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.
I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.
^
Nailed it.
But in practice when you sign up for trial as tank you "report" your sets to group leader, while on dps nobody cares what sets you are running, at maximum you'll be asked of parse screenshot from combat metrics.0 -
commdt✭✭✭✭WhyMustItBe wrote: »If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.
Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?
Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.
Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield
This can't be going live, can it?
That can't be a thing
It will. And it is a good thingRawr1 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭to be honest don't understand why Zenimax team can't just do like enchants penalty only for dual wield.
why it should also nerf enchants at sword and board...both in pve and pvp...it's a wrong way...seems someone there had a bad day with a heavy head when decided to go current way...Edited by JusticeSouldier on February 25, 2019 8:04AMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.0 -
Wolfahm✭✭✭MAKE KHAJIITS CRIT AGAIN!!!
|Wolf Ahm the Unchained|
- 4 Nightblades | 3 Stam/1 Mag -
- 2 Templars | Stam/Healer -
- 2 Sorc | Stam/Mag -
- 2 Wardens | Stam/Mag -
- 1 DK | Tank/Stam -
|| Aldmeri Dominion ||0 -
Itzmichi✭✭✭✭✭Sounds like a good presetting to introduce new runes imo. We shall see.
But i agree its a shame that they halved the potency of the glyphs on s&b.Here, have a chill pill 💊!0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »LioraValkyrie wrote: »The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.
The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.
I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.
^
Nailed it.
But in practice when you sign up for trial as tank you "report" your sets to group leader, while on dps nobody cares what sets you are running, at maximum you'll be asked of parse screenshot from combat metrics.
The trials I've attended where they don't care what my dps brings also don't care what the tank wears so long as they stay alive. If you're going for score pushes, there's a great deal less freedom than progression or even normals (which is what some 90% of the community is going to be doing anyway mind you).
Trust me, there's a list of acceptable sets and strategies allowed in higher end score raids (rip werewolf build, I hardly knew yee).Edited by DocFrost72 on February 25, 2019 3:20PM0 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why wouldn't they add a passive to the S&S skill line that takes 1 or 2 skill points to put the enchantment value up to par with 2 handers?
Fear is the Mindkiller0 -
paulychan✭✭✭✭soynegroyque wrote: »WhyMustItBe wrote: »If I'm not mistaken crusher from blockade can only proc on 1 enemy. ZOS really needs to rethink their approach to this.
Can someone explain to me how the 1h/s enchant changes impact playstyle? What is the downside of just leaving crusher on the main hand and putting something else on the back bar?
Is crusher on 1h now only half as strong? Because a shield isn't a weapon, so to treat it like dual wield seems like an oversight on ZOS' part.
Yes it will give only 1054 on 1H+shield
This can't be going live, can it?
That can't be a thing
It can, and it is...
As stupid as it sounds.
Yikes. I had crusher on all my backbar staves already so I guess I better rethink my rotation and get that uptime happening. At least the lower debuff does not overide the higher rebuff anymore...
Or am I wrong again?Edited by paulychan on February 25, 2019 5:12PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Here is why 1 hand weapons are nerfed and why it had to effect the SnB it would be op in pvp 2h size enchant on SnB plus an armor enchant on top of that. Now if shields didn’t have armor granting resistance plus an armor enchant maybe give shields unique enchants then maybe I could see 2h size enchant on SnB. Here is suggestion for one unique shield enchant while equipped with a weapon increase weapons enchant effect by 100%0 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭GallantGuardian wrote: »If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants
Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it
This.
I play tank. I love tank. But this game is absolutely insane in its 'optimization' and how support sets are dumped on healer and tank so dps can relax and parse like spoiled and preened hollywood actors.
Alkosh for example, its medium armor, it gives weapon crit, it was designed for dps. But we make tanks wear it cuz 'moar dps' so we can skip mechanics that are too hard to learn. We pile dps sets on tanks, lock them into using warhorn instead of the actual tank ultimates, then expect them to never die without any of the actual tank sets, hold all aggro all the time and be responsible for everyone and everything.
Then wonder why no one tanks in this game and dps queue is sooooooo long. How much would a raid really suffer if one dps used alkosh/war machine/morag tong/torags and infused crusher? Would allow a dps without perfect rotation to still be helpful and let tank breath and wear that lunar bastion set zos designed for them.
Omg I love every bit of this.1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well as I main both vet tanks and dps I can see both sides of the coin. Having to slot either a bow or a frost staff is ok in theory but that will mean losing resistances block mitigation and stats so for vet trials, time dps did their bit and use sharpened to make up for the loss of 800 odd pen from crusher.
I can see two fanged snake making a come back, and after I deconstructed all my tfs gold jewels and weapons as well xd.
I don't want to be rude, but if you have not been slotting an ice staff (and in most cases even lightning staff) on your tank for about a year already - you were not maining a vet tank.
I main a vet tank and I rarely use a destro staff back bar.
There's more than 1 way to play the game1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.
The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.
I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magicka glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.
And this too.
I run 0 meta builds. In fact, the quickest way to ensure I will never run something is to tell me "this is what you should be running"
If a trial leader asks me to "report" my sets for approval, I will leave the trial immediately.
And i will not be told what sets to wear by a DPS player who just doesn't want to do it himself (Alkosh?? Are you kidding me?? It's a medium armor damage set, it is NOT for tanks)
If all you're worried about is score pushing, then I dont want to play with you anyways.
Any difficulties I have with tanking can always 100% be traced back to learning mechanics, NOT from an "off-meta" build.
Once mechanics are understood, no amount of "optimization" is necessary to clear.
If you want me to run certain sets, then you can build your own tank to run those sets.
I'm playing my tank and I'll run my sets.1 -
Calypso589✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »Armor shredding has neve been a tank-relegated role. Can't say I saw too many tanks running around proccing sunder heavies and wearing NMG.
What a joke. My comment was that it IS the tank's role. Yours was that it "has never been" the tank role.
What are the facts?
1. It is the tank's role.
2. It has been the tank's role for quite a while.
I never claimed it was "always" the tank's role, just that it IS. And indeed, it still is.
But it still isn't as of now. The only tank capable of supplying every armor debuff is templar tank - which is dead as dirt anyways. Minor frac/breach is provided by other roles which are, incidentally, not tanks. Which means that there are other roles which provide armor debuffs other than tank.
Which means this statement:
It is the tank's job to strip armor, nobody else's.
Is simply untrue.
Kind of splitting hairs here. lol0 -
Calypso589✭✭✭I play tank. I love tank. But this game is absolutely insane in its 'optimization' and how support sets are dumped on healer and tank
Cuz healers and tanks are support roles.....?Alkosh for example, its medium armor, it gives weapon crit, it was designed for dps. But we make tanks wear it cuz 'moar dps' so we can skip mechanics that are too hard to learn.
Lemme tell you why tanks wear it.
Currently, Alkosh does two things.
1. Shreds 3010 armor
2. 12k bonus Physical damage
Who's in the front of the line to take synergies? The tank. So that 3010 armor shred is a no-brainer. But you're looking at constant streams of 12k physical damage and drooling, right?
Here's the problem.
Line-Breaker (the armor debuff) lasts 10 seconds. It does not stack. This means that while Line-Breaker is active, taking another synergy does not shred another 3010 armor. It's 3010 armor shredded for 10 seconds and then you take another synergy.
This means that that entire half of the proc is completely wasted by multiple players hitting a synergy during that 10 second duration.
But you might say, "Oh well that's a continuous stream of 12k physical damage over 10 seconds over and over again though."
And you'd be right.
But that bonus physical damage will never crit. Ever. Because it's a proc. That instantly makes it worse than sets with 5 piece bonuses that increase damage or crit damage or crit chance.
Compare Alkosh to Tooth of Lokkestiiz for example.
15 seconds of major slayer is a buff to everything you do and if you crit for 12k at least once during that time (and you will) then you've gotten more out of this set in a single second that you would have for Alkosh's entire proc duration. Not to mention repeatedly taking synergies doesn't make any aspect of the proc redundant, as it would with Alkosh.
So no........some of these sets aren't worn by tanks because endgame players can't be bothered to learn mechanics.
Tanks wear Alkosh because it's an incredibly important armor debuff and because your DPS will literally perform worse with it. Absolutely 100% worse. It's not about mechanic-skipping. It's not even about serious optimization.
It's just basic math and knowledge of some simple systems (i.e. proc sets can't crit).
We pile dps sets on tanks, lock them into using warhorn instead of the actual tank ultimates, then expect them to never die without any of the actual tank sets, hold all aggro all the time and be responsible for everyone and everything.
Define "tank ultimates" because there's a wide variety of ultimates that a tank might use depending on the content they're in and the group makeup.
But tanks typically use Aggressive Warhorn because, as a support role, they're supporting their DPS by enabling them to do more damage. Same reason a healer might use it.
Supports aren't there to do damage and other ultimates should be used only if truly needed.
It's honestly a L2P issue if you can't graduate out of using something like Magma Shell all the time.
Again, simple math. DPS lose damage if they slot an ultimate that doesn't do damage. /shrugHow much would a raid really suffer if one dps used alkosh/war machine/morag tong/torags and infused crusher? Would allow a dps without perfect rotation to still be helpful and let tank breath and wear that lunar bastion set zos designed for them.
It wouldn't suffer too terribly but there'd be zero reason why you'd put all that on a DPS. The fact that anyone would suffer at all is reason enough not to do that.
You're talking about being different for the sake of it and not because it makes any kind of sense.
Also......Lunar Bastion is terrible.
Maybe it was good back when it came out? I dunno.
Simple math and knowledge of how the game works is what leads to the optimization that you hate for some reason.
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deleted221106-002999✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I suppose the guys who started this discussion in Feb 2019 have been sitting around patiently waiting for 18 months for these recent comments.
LOL.5 -
Calypso589✭✭✭I suppose the guys who started this discussion in Feb 2019 have been sitting around patiently waiting for 18 months for these recent comments.
LOL.
Oh wow that's bizarre......I'm looking for the comment that would've made it appear on page 1 of this forum but can't find it.
Wouldn't have commented otherwise. LMFAO
EDIT: Nvm found the comment that necro'd it. GD it.Edited by Calypso589 on July 14, 2020 4:55AM0 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭GallantGuardian wrote: »ATreeGnome wrote: »GallantGuardian wrote: »If dps want crusher they can put it on their back bar... they don’t need both weapons to be damage enchants
Sorry but dps are allowed to do some of their own debuffin there is nothing wrong with it
Yeah, as long as you don't mind making fights take longer and be more difficult for everyone involved, there's nothing wrong with it.
Fights won’t take longer if dps replace one of their enchantments with crusher
They would because front bar is usually a damage enchant and back bar is usually the weapon/spell damage enchant. Thats true for almost all DPS builds as tehy can get an easy ~400 extra out of this.0 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »The irony is, many of the targets that need to die ASAP to prevent major problems for the group never get touched by these debuffs. Orbs in CR, Conduits on HoF, the hoards of ads in Blackrose, and many other such targets throughout the game will never see Major Fracture, much less crusher and Alkosh.
The tank meta is a score-runner's meta which I strongly believe almost never makes the difference between a successful clear or group wipe. A tank can provide group support by being tough enough and having enough resources to hold bosses and ads without a healer's constant attention, and by providing additional health, resistances and shields for the group.
I can actually think of more cases where having a restore stamina or magika glyph ticking on a frost staff could have prevented a wipe than having a crusher would have. If you want to run with score runners, you have to do things their way, but if you want to clear content and make progress, there are more than one way to skin the cat.
100% this.
And it's the same for healer.
To much people speak about meta and optimization w/o knowing the purpose of it.
Most player are not good enough to run these build and will do way better with less cheese comp.
I've seen so many player asking to healer/tank taking DPS set to make the run "faster" and dying so much because their was not good enough to deal with less sustain buff/heal.
Meanwhile, I've done most HM trial with "play as you like but do your job" Raid lead type.
If you don't do scoring, then you don't need to squeeze every bit of DPS scarifying sustain.
Way to much player in this game think their very good at the game and 90% of the time they'r just in the middle if not less.
As a healer I've always every set and build ready so raid-lead is happy, but when thing goes wrong, I just say "NO" and use set that are more useful for a progress group.
Also for crusher, healer can use it too since off-balance proc is not even 25% uptime, not a big lose, most end-game healer don't use it anymore anyway, I see a lot of them with Zerk, flame/poison (if z'en user) or weakening.
And as healer I've torug too, so if tank don't/can't use it, I can.
Also with the change on Alkosh, putting it in a DPS is not a bad idea, the debuff will be so much better that mean every DPS could remove penetration CP and put them elsewhere to get even more dps.Edited by Aznarb on July 14, 2020 10:17AM[ PC EU ]
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