Speaking of Overtuned skills: Leap

Langeston · July 2020

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

Heyzert · July 2020

The major problem of this ult is the buggy implementation. I mean there is an immobilize before being stunned....

Hope all the buggy skills will be patched with the performance update...

Joy_Division · July 2020

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

I think you mean "avoidable" CC.

Considering all the problems with ESO, DK Leap doesn't even come close to most of them and is hardly controversial in my opinion.

Dracane · July 2020

All these comments about just blocking Dragon Jump. Are you folks machines or AI's? Is your reaction really that quick? I doubt it. I can actively block it when they do it from max range, when there is actual time to get your block up. But in melee range? Please, certainly not unless you already held block because you suspected something to happen. I do not find it a sufficient argument to say something is blockable basically only when you already held block before it happened, at which time the DK is to be blamed for dragon jumping a blocking target. Good DKs wait until you dodgeroll and then it's over.

That's like Toppling Charge. For the love of Auri-El, I can not block it when it's already ongoing. Once they start charging, I will be denied any block. I am basically subdued before it even connects. It is only when I know it is coming (which is literally always the case once they see you and put power of light on you.)

MincVinyl · July 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

I think you mean "avoidable" CC.

Considering all the problems with ESO, DK Leap doesn't even come close to most of them and is hardly controversial in my opinion.

Ever fight 10-15 people and have 3 people leap you in a row through root/snare immunity while the game still charges you for your roll dodges while still taking incoming damage and not moving from your original location? The fact that leap still abides by the rules of the old gap closers, which for years people complained about that being a horrible mechanic, I would say it is controversial.

I also believe that the dw hidden dagger gap closer also still abides by the old rules, but nobody uses it other than to exploit the root/snare through immunity.

ZarkingFrued · July 2020

Leap is fine. Based on the Stam DK tool kit they need a strong Ulti

ZarkingFrued · July 2020

Apox wrote: »

it is absolutely blockable and dodgeable. you can even snipe a flying dk out of the air with magnum shot or any other form of knockback and entirely avoid its damage.

Definitely a L2p issue imo. It's not to strong, and there is plenty of counterplay. If every time someone dies to a skill it gets nerfed then this game could get quite boring.

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

I think you mean "avoidable" CC.

Considering all the problems with ESO, DK Leap doesn't even come close to most of them and is hardly controversial in my opinion.

Yes avoidable. Thank you for correction.

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2020

Langeston wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

If you can block it to avoid the CC it is soft. If you block and can’t avoid it and you still get CCd it is hard. Been known since Beta. Idk why people are trying to change this terminology. Of course I could just be institutionalized with this way of thinking. A snare is known as a snare. By your logic then talons is a soft cc yes? I say talons is a snare. But again. I may just be Institutionalized from all this.

MincVinyl · July 2020

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

If you can block it to avoid the CC it is soft. If you block and can’t avoid it and you still get CCd it is hard. Been known since Beta. Idk why people are trying to change this terminology. Of course I could just be institutionalized with this way of thinking. A snare is known as a snare. By your logic then talons is a soft cc yes? I say talons is a snare. But again. I may just be Institutionalized from all this.

Hard cc is something that removes all form of control over your character until it is broken (stuns/knockups/knockbacks/knockdowns) Anything that requires you to use interrupt to cc break for example.

Soft cc is anything that hinders you in some way, but you still have control over some of your character (snares/roots) anything that would be removed from forward momentum/shuffle for example.

Talons is a root since, you know, it roots you in place (in eso it also does not allow you to turn your character model's orientation)
Snares are movement slows

Issue with leap right now is that it abides by old gapcloser rules where the target player gets a root/snare applied to them regardless of any form of counterplay or immunity. This also pulls you out of dodge roll before and even if you have immunity to the incoming hard cc knockup.

How this can be exploited is by using a root>stun>leap to chain lock a player in place. So for instance most players will roll dodge after cc breaking a petrify so if you talons they will roll out of the root>you fossilize>they cc break and might roll dodge>you leap which pulls them out of the roll dodge (they still pay for it) locking them in place even though they have both root and hard cc immunity......Even if the enemy player made all the correct counterplay options, there is no counterplay available for this old mechanic. This was the reason it was removed from 95% of the gap closers in the game. Remember the days where nightblades would spam lotus fan over and over since it permanently locked you in place for others to kill you, leap still uses that mechanic.

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2020

Do you know. How long I have thought it was different than that hahahahaha hahahahaha wow 😳

Well thank you all for the schoolin

MincVinyl · July 2020

What people usually dont understand is why the guards can seem to hard cc you over and over and over. This is because they are using an old removed mechanics most people refer to as a mez or mesmerize. It is a hard cc that you can break, but the thing is if you ever receive damage you snap out of the cc.

So what happens when at a resource is one guard mez's you. then another hits you snapping you out of it. Then another mez's you again.....and so on until they run out of mez's. Much like how a guard will negate you so you run out of the negate to just get negated again. The thing is unless you use the interrupt to break free from the mez before another guard hits you, you will just keep getting chain mez'ed

Dracane · July 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

What people usually dont understand is why the guards can seem to hard cc you over and over and over. This is because they are using an old removed mechanics most people refer to as a mez or mesmerize. It is a hard cc that you can break, but the thing is if you ever receive damage you snap out of the cc.

So what happens when at a resource is one guard mez's you. then another hits you snapping you out of it. Then another mez's you again.....and so on until they run out of mez's. Much like how a guard will negate you so you run out of the negate to just get negated again. The thing is unless you use the interrupt to break free from the mez before another guard hits you, you will just keep getting chain mez'ed

It is actually called 'disorient' in ESO. It's not really an old mechanic as some things still apply that in game, for example Honor Guards. It has merely been removed from player abilities in any shape or form.

Streak and Petrify for example used to Disorient rather than stun. Which is a stun that breaks upon taking damage without granting CC immunity if not actively broken free from.

As far as NPC's go, no NPC in the game has a real stun. All NPC "stuns" are semi-disorients that do not grant you CC immunity unless you break from them and that for some exceptions like the Honor Guard cage, also do not break just by taking damage. Something that I always complained about, because it creates certain confusion and imbalance. In PvP you get rewarded for staying in a stun. You get free immunity afterwards. Something that would certainly confuse inexperienced players a bit.

MincVinyl · July 2020

Dracane wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

What people usually dont understand is why the guards can seem to hard cc you over and over and over. This is because they are using an old removed mechanics most people refer to as a mez or mesmerize. It is a hard cc that you can break, but the thing is if you ever receive damage you snap out of the cc.

So what happens when at a resource is one guard mez's you. then another hits you snapping you out of it. Then another mez's you again.....and so on until they run out of mez's. Much like how a guard will negate you so you run out of the negate to just get negated again. The thing is unless you use the interrupt to break free from the mez before another guard hits you, you will just keep getting chain mez'ed

It is actually called 'disorient' in ESO. It's not really an old mechanic as some things still apply that in game, for example Honor Guards. It has merely been removed from player abilities in any shape or form.

Streak and Petrify for example used to Disorient rather than stun. Which is a stun that breaks upon taking damage without granting CC immunity if not actively broken free from.

As far as NPC's go, no NPC in the game has a real stun. All NPC "stuns" are semi-disorients that do not grant you CC immunity unless you break from them and that for some exceptions like the Honor Guard cage, also do not break just by taking damage. Something that I always complained about, because it creates certain confusion and imbalance. In PvP you get rewarded for staying in a stun. You get free immunity afterwards. Something that would certainly confuse inexperienced players a bit.

A bunch of random mobs in earlier zones in the world also have these, tbh i wish zos could revisit the cyrodil mobs a bit.....although i suppose they are more of a challenge in a way how they work currently.

Somewhere · July 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. L2P and stop trying to have a class that has been nerfd into the ground nerfd more because you cant counter correctly.

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

If you can block it to avoid the CC it is soft. If you block and can’t avoid it and you still get CCd it is hard. Been known since Beta. Idk why people are trying to change this terminology. Of course I could just be institutionalized with this way of thinking. A snare is known as a snare. By your logic then talons is a soft cc yes? I say talons is a snare. But again. I may just be Institutionalized from all this.

Hard cc is something that removes all form of control over your character until it is broken (stuns/knockups/knockbacks/knockdowns) Anything that requires you to use interrupt to cc break for example.

Soft cc is anything that hinders you in some way, but you still have control over some of your character (snares/roots) anything that would be removed from forward momentum/shuffle for example.

Talons is a root since, you know, it roots you in place (in eso it also does not allow you to turn your character model's orientation)
Snares are movement slows
Issue with leap right now is that it abides by old gapcloser rules where the target player gets a root/snare applied to them regardless of any form of counterplay or immunity. This also pulls you out of dodge roll before and even if you have immunity to the incoming hard cc knockup.

How this can be exploited is by using a root>stun>leap to chain lock a player in place. So for instance most players will roll dodge after cc breaking a petrify so if you talons they will roll out of the root>you fossilize>they cc break and might roll dodge>you leap which pulls them out of the roll dodge (they still pay for it) locking them in place even though they have both root and hard cc immunity......Even if the enemy player made all the correct counterplay options, there is no counterplay available for this old mechanic. This was the reason it was removed from 95% of the gap closers in the game. Remember the days where nightblades would spam lotus fan over and over since it permanently locked you in place for others to kill you, leap still uses that mechanic.

The snare on dragon leap has been intentionally placed on it. Back in 2.7.5 dragon leap was made to be undodgable on virtue that it deals area damage and and it being an ultimate. The developer comment said that the snare could stay on the skill simply because it can't be spammed.

In 5.0.5 they made the area of effect larger from 6.5m to 8m and increased the intensity of the snare. This was because characters with very high move speed could outrun and dodge out of the ultimate, which goes against what the standard for the skill was: undodgable area damage.

It is no oversight or accident dragon leap is the way it is. It's by design.

Dev comment from 2.7.5

As part of a consistency pass to define abilities as dodgable or undodgable, Dragon Leap has been made undodgable. Area of Effect attacks should not be dodgable since they blanket an entire area with harmful effects, and should still damage enemies trying to Roll Dodge through it. Since this is an Ultimate ability, we want its activation to be more reliable compared to other charge or leap abilities. Because of this, Dragon Leap can now be used while you are rooted, and makes you immune to such effects mid-leap.

5.0.5 comment about gap closers and dragon leap:

Made several changes to “Gap Closer” abilities:
Removed the snare applied from all abilities that deal with character charges, leaps, teleports, or other movements.
Removed all minimum ranges from these abilities.
Drastically increased the speed of all of these abilities, and increased their auxiliary effects’ (damage, debuffs, etc.) range to ensure they always apply to their target.
Note: Dragon Leap and its morphs are an exclusion to some of these changes. They will continue to fire a snare, which has new visual effectcs introduced to it. This is due to the fact it cannot be used in quick succession compared to other instant cast abilities. Dragon Leap has had its speed increased as well, but not as drastically, to ensure the visual fidelity remains.

ecru · July 2020

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

They took the CC from the Warden's Ultimate, because it was too strong, but left it on the DK. Makes perfect sense.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

They took the CC from the Warden's Ultimate, because it was too strong, but left it on the DK. Makes perfect sense.

Ah yes because leap snares and maims enemies for 812 seconds while giving nearby allies major protection. Totally unreasonable that those poor wardens are treated like that. Wow I feel really bad for you guys, having to deal with such a bad hand. Must be horrible that your support class with all the tools to carry a team to victory doesn't come with DK's 1v1 potential. Completely unreasonable.

Edit: Its actually 12 seconds lmao

not to mention how fast wardens generate ult compared to a dk.

Ragnarock41 · July 2020

Langeston wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

Hard to find good information these days. Everyone who has internet access is an ''expert'' at any topic. How does any of this hold any significance in this topic I have absolutely no clue. All the DK haters are gathered here screaming for nerfs however not even a single soul has a good suggestion that takes DK players into account. This ultimate ALWAYS had that stun there. It always had a relatively hard hitting tooltip cause the skill doesn't come with any fancy passives or any sort of side-benefit.

In a game where we complain from tank meta and people playing it as safe as possible, leap is an ultimate that puts emphasis on pure agression. If the snare on it is too much then say it, but all these nerf demands are just getting on my nerves. Corrosive armor already took a great nerf to its penetration, nerfing leap would push DK even further into the ''useless meat shield'' niche. Or as others around me like to call it, the glorified ''[snip]*. I don't want that to happen.

''Nerf it cause I don't like it'', mentality needs to stop being listened to, maybe its partially my fault too for giving it attention.

[Minor Edit for Censor Bypass]

Drdeath20 · July 2020

I disagree that leap is OP but i will agree that NBs need some smart changes to their toolkit. Might have to give some stuff to get some stuff though...

Langeston · July 2020

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

Hard to find good information these days. Everyone who has internet access is an ''expert'' at any topic. How does any of this hold any significance in this topic I have absolutely no clue. All the DK haters are gathered here screaming for nerfs however not even a single soul has a good suggestion that takes DK players into account. This ultimate ALWAYS had that stun there. It always had a relatively hard hitting tooltip cause the skill doesn't come with any fancy passives or any sort of side-benefit.

In a game where we complain from tank meta and people playing it as safe as possible, leap is an ultimate that puts emphasis on pure agression. If the snare on it is too much then say it, but all these nerf demands are just getting on my nerves. Corrosive armor already took a great nerf to its penetration, nerfing leap would push DK even further into the ''useless meat shield'' niche. Or as others around me like to call it, the glorified ''[snip]*. I don't want that to happen.

''Nerf it cause I don't like it'', mentality needs to stop being listened to, maybe its partially my fault too for giving it attention.

[Minor Edit for Censor Bypass]

You seem to be directing this comment towards me, but I don't understand why — all I did was correctly define a couple of terms. Nowhere in my post did I even comment on the skill itself, let alone call for it to be nerfed.

I'm not sure I agree that "leap is an ultimate that puts emphasis on pure agression" though, considering the fact that most of the DK combos I run into seem to be nothing more than block>block>block>block>block>leap>execute (while hoping one of their proc sets fires at some point.)

Juhasow · July 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

The only problem with leap is de-sync he causes.

Did you just assume Leap's gender?

SORRY! plz don't ban me

Btw, about that 30k tooltip:
(1 - 10%) hardy *
(1 - 20%) ironclad *
(1 - 25%) major evasion *
(1 - 50%) block *
(1 - 8%) minor protection *
(1 - 10%+) from resistances *
(1 - 15%) from undeath....
= 0.19...

oops forgot battle spirit another 50%.... so yeah, 3k - that is damage which that leap will do if it blocked and 6k if unblocked. Those are realistic numbers which I saw against me on variety of builds. Sometimes it can crit for something like 8k, but DK should be real glass cannon.
So if you blocked it that leap will cause no damage. It causes damage when your screen freezes for 4 seconds and then you see dizzy-leap-execute-execute while on your screen nothing was happening.

That is not excatly how math for mitigation works.

Nord_Raseri · July 2020

Stuns and stun immunity is broken due to performance issues and whatnot. Stamblade ult double stuns and is unblockable. Most skills in the game that stun right now are almost impossible to immediately break free from, and in the event you do it charges you for three and then you immediately get stunned again. Compared to a lot of stuns in game right now, leap is fine. The damage is easily mitigated.

MincVinyl · July 2020

Somewhere wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. L2P and stop trying to have a class that has been nerfd into the ground nerfd more because you cant counter correctly.

Incorrect. Hard CC means that you completely lose all control of your character, while soft CC means you only partially lose control. Whether or not it is blockable is irrelevant.

Snares and immobilizations are soft CCs. A CC that requires you to break free before you can perform any other action (such as the stun from Leap) is a hard CC.

If you can block it to avoid the CC it is soft. If you block and can’t avoid it and you still get CCd it is hard. Been known since Beta. Idk why people are trying to change this terminology. Of course I could just be institutionalized with this way of thinking. A snare is known as a snare. By your logic then talons is a soft cc yes? I say talons is a snare. But again. I may just be Institutionalized from all this.

Hard cc is something that removes all form of control over your character until it is broken (stuns/knockups/knockbacks/knockdowns) Anything that requires you to use interrupt to cc break for example.

Soft cc is anything that hinders you in some way, but you still have control over some of your character (snares/roots) anything that would be removed from forward momentum/shuffle for example.

Talons is a root since, you know, it roots you in place (in eso it also does not allow you to turn your character model's orientation)
Snares are movement slows
Issue with leap right now is that it abides by old gapcloser rules where the target player gets a root/snare applied to them regardless of any form of counterplay or immunity. This also pulls you out of dodge roll before and even if you have immunity to the incoming hard cc knockup.

How this can be exploited is by using a root>stun>leap to chain lock a player in place. So for instance most players will roll dodge after cc breaking a petrify so if you talons they will roll out of the root>you fossilize>they cc break and might roll dodge>you leap which pulls them out of the roll dodge (they still pay for it) locking them in place even though they have both root and hard cc immunity......Even if the enemy player made all the correct counterplay options, there is no counterplay available for this old mechanic. This was the reason it was removed from 95% of the gap closers in the game. Remember the days where nightblades would spam lotus fan over and over since it permanently locked you in place for others to kill you, leap still uses that mechanic.

The snare on dragon leap has been intentionally placed on it. Back in 2.7.5 dragon leap was made to be undodgable on virtue that it deals area damage and and it being an ultimate. The developer comment said that the snare could stay on the skill simply because it can't be spammed.

In 5.0.5 they made the area of effect larger from 6.5m to 8m and increased the intensity of the snare. This was because characters with very high move speed could outrun and dodge out of the ultimate, which goes against what the standard for the skill was: undodgable area damage.

It is no oversight or accident dragon leap is the way it is. It's by design.

Dev comment from 2.7.5
As part of a consistency pass to define abilities as dodgable or undodgable, Dragon Leap has been made undodgable. Area of Effect attacks should not be dodgable since they blanket an entire area with harmful effects, and should still damage enemies trying to Roll Dodge through it. Since this is an Ultimate ability, we want its activation to be more reliable compared to other charge or leap abilities. Because of this, Dragon Leap can now be used while you are rooted, and makes you immune to such effects mid-leap.

5.0.5 comment about gap closers and dragon leap:
Made several changes to “Gap Closer” abilities:
Removed the snare applied from all abilities that deal with character charges, leaps, teleports, or other movements.
Removed all minimum ranges from these abilities.
Drastically increased the speed of all of these abilities, and increased their auxiliary effects’ (damage, debuffs, etc.) range to ensure they always apply to their target.
Note: Dragon Leap and its morphs are an exclusion to some of these changes. They will continue to fire a snare, which has new visual effectcs introduced to it. This is due to the fact it cannot be used in quick succession compared to other instant cast abilities. Dragon Leap has had its speed increased as well, but not as drastically, to ensure the visual fidelity remains.

By no means does the devs wanting it to work like this make it a healthy game design decision to have no counterplay and actually bypass counterplay skilled players are using and punishing those players for making the right decisions. It is just laziness on their part for not being able to make the ability work, mainly due to server lag.

They could have probs fixed the ability a long time ago if they made leap a ground placed ability like caltrops where you would point at an area to just jump to and hit whatever is there. But players would rather have a "Guaranteed" simple point and click. This was brought up before, but people are scared of skill shot type of mechanics where you might miss if you dont aim.

EDIT: I mean this is coming from the devs that removed a unique ultimate from the game and thought to replace onslaught with a massive single target hit, plus a bonus aoe for some reason, plus what 45s of perfect pen on all damage.......them saying anything is not grounds for good game design or to say it was the right choice.

Beffagorn · July 2020

Dracane wrote: »

All these comments about just blocking Dragon Jump. Are you folks machines or AI's? Is your reaction really that quick? I doubt it. I can actively block it when they do it from max range, when there is actual time to get your block up. But in melee range? Please, certainly not unless you already held block because you suspected something to happen. I do not find it a sufficient argument to say something is blockable basically only when you already held block before it happened, at which time the DK is to be blamed for dragon jumping a blocking target. Good DKs wait until you dodgeroll and then it's over.

That's like Toppling Charge. For the love of Auri-El, I can not block it when it's already ongoing. Once they start charging, I will be denied any block. I am basically subdued before it even connects. It is only when I know it is coming (which is literally always the case once they see you and put power of light on you.)

It's not about reaction times, it's about knowing a DK's rotation and predicting the moment you're about to get ult'd on, which is incredibly easy to do. As you've said yourself they wait to punish dodge rolls, so what's stopping you from adapting to it?

The vast majority of Mag Leaps happen after you break free from Fossilize and you're roll dodging out of the root so that you're defenseless. That's their one and only win condition. Hold block instead of roll dodging out of the first fossilize and you'll block their leap 95% of the time since most won't expect it.

Stam Leaps usually happen at the second Dizzy Swing-stun combo so that Venomous Claw has time to tick down and deal more damage and have an easier time to secure the kill while in execute range (Even better if they can also punish a dodgeroll) . If it's against cleanse classes, it's more likely the stamdk will save it to punish a dodge roll, for example to dodge a dizzy-stun combo. Either that, or if they use fossilize it's the same like with MagDKs. Not that stamdks can realistically use Fossilize anymore with the 4050 magicka cost.

Easiest counterplay against Dks is to block more often instead of rolling and save your dodge rolls for when you absolutely need them or when their leap isn't ready. The class has no delayed burst equivalent, you counter their ultimate game and their win condition is dead and buried.

Sorry man but if you can't predict leap that's on you, it's not the ability that is overperforming.

Inb4 "B-But lag/delay/can't break free" well then, why not nerf frags and snipe since getting desync killed by those two skills is a common occurrence during prime time at this point.

Joy_Division · July 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

I think you mean "avoidable" CC.

Considering all the problems with ESO, DK Leap doesn't even come close to most of them and is hardly controversial in my opinion.

Ever fight 10-15 people and have 3 people leap you in a row through root/snare immunity while the game still charges you for your roll dodges while still taking incoming damage and not moving from your original location? The fact that leap still abides by the rules of the old gap closers, which for years people complained about that being a horrible mechanic, I would say it is controversial.

I also believe that the dw hidden dagger gap closer also still abides by the old rules, but nobody uses it other than to exploit the root/snare through immunity.

Yes, I have fought 10-15 people. If I'm not getting leaped by mutliple DKs, I'm getting sniped, Jesus Beamed, meteored, ambushed, and Endless Fury spammed such that a DK leap is akin to adding a few pages to War and Peace.

As far as ZOS's mechanics about gap closers, which they have gone back and forth so many times I can only guess by "old rules" that means auto-snare (which, from what I remember, they reintroduced into the game for all gap-closers, but again they change so much I lost track), that is a ZOS has stupid gap-closer mechanics problem, not a reason to nerf DK Leap.

MincVinyl · July 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Seeing people post inaccurate information is really getting unnerving.

For the last time! LEAP is a SOFT CC! you can hold block and not get CC'd. You can pop an immovable pot and not get cc'd, you can cast immovable skill and not get CC'd. [Snip]
[Edited for bait]

I think you mean "avoidable" CC.

Considering all the problems with ESO, DK Leap doesn't even come close to most of them and is hardly controversial in my opinion.

Ever fight 10-15 people and have 3 people leap you in a row through root/snare immunity while the game still charges you for your roll dodges while still taking incoming damage and not moving from your original location? The fact that leap still abides by the rules of the old gap closers, which for years people complained about that being a horrible mechanic, I would say it is controversial.

I also believe that the dw hidden dagger gap closer also still abides by the old rules, but nobody uses it other than to exploit the root/snare through immunity.

Yes, I have fought 10-15 people. If I'm not getting leaped by mutliple DKs, I'm getting sniped, Jesus Beamed, meteored, ambushed, and Endless Fury spammed such that a DK leap is akin to adding a few pages to War and Peace.

As far as ZOS's mechanics about gap closers, which they have gone back and forth so many times I can only guess by "old rules" that means auto-snare (which, from what I remember, they reintroduced into the game for all gap-closers, but again they change so much I lost track), that is a ZOS has stupid gap-closer mechanics problem, not a reason to nerf DK Leap.

I'm not asking for leap to be nerfed by any means, i am merely pointing out how inconsistent zos is with their game design. Having these one off rule breakers causes many issues down the line later, has happened many times before in the game in other aspects.

Dracane · July 2020

Beffagorn wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

All these comments about just blocking Dragon Jump. Are you folks machines or AI's? Is your reaction really that quick? I doubt it. I can actively block it when they do it from max range, when there is actual time to get your block up. But in melee range? Please, certainly not unless you already held block because you suspected something to happen. I do not find it a sufficient argument to say something is blockable basically only when you already held block before it happened, at which time the DK is to be blamed for dragon jumping a blocking target. Good DKs wait until you dodgeroll and then it's over.

That's like Toppling Charge. For the love of Auri-El, I can not block it when it's already ongoing. Once they start charging, I will be denied any block. I am basically subdued before it even connects. It is only when I know it is coming (which is literally always the case once they see you and put power of light on you.)

It's not about reaction times, it's about knowing a DK's rotation and predicting the moment you're about to get ult'd on, which is incredibly easy to do. As you've said yourself they wait to punish dodge rolls, so what's stopping you from adapting to it?

The vast majority of Mag Leaps happen after you break free from Fossilize and you're roll dodging out of the root so that you're defenseless. That's their one and only win condition. Hold block instead of roll dodging out of the first fossilize and you'll block their leap 95% of the time since most won't expect it.

Stam Leaps usually happen at the second Dizzy Swing-stun combo so that Venomous Claw has time to tick down and deal more damage and have an easier time to secure the kill while in execute range (Even better if they can also punish a dodgeroll) . If it's against cleanse classes, it's more likely the stamdk will save it to punish a dodge roll, for example to dodge a dizzy-stun combo. Either that, or if they use fossilize it's the same like with MagDKs. Not that stamdks can realistically use Fossilize anymore with the 4050 magicka cost.

Easiest counterplay against Dks is to block more often instead of rolling and save your dodge rolls for when you absolutely need them or when their leap isn't ready. The class has no delayed burst equivalent, you counter their ultimate game and their win condition is dead and buried.

Sorry man but if you can't predict leap that's on you, it's not the ability that is overperforming.

Inb4 "B-But lag/delay/can't break free" well then, why not nerf frags and snipe since getting desync killed by those two skills is a common occurrence during prime time at this point.

Never once have I used lags as an argument, since they do not affect me at all.
But I know that not everyone uses predictable rythms like this. I dare say only the trash and already harmless ones do.
Good ones will not use Jump when you predict it. What you say exists exclusively in theory and with DKs who even with jump would be unable to kill anyone.

Out there, it's certainly not quite like this.

JayKwellen · July 2020

Drdeath20 wrote: »

I disagree that leap is OP but i will agree that NBs need some smart changes to their toolkit. Might have to give some stuff to get some stuff though...

@Drdeath20 What do nightblades even have to give at this point? Particularly magblades?

We gonna give up the heal on swallow soul so we can go from having crap healing to almost non-existant healing?

Give up damage on the spectral bow, the easiest to anticipate, sometimes tricky to charge, and easiest to dodge ability in the game which punishes us for using it and is outclassed by other on demand burst abilities like blastbones and shalks?

Give up...something...on soul harvest? It already doesn't hit terribly hard, is only single target, and is also absurdly easy to dodge. For comparison my wardens sub assault has a higher tool tip, is AoE, gives fracture, and can be reliably cast every 3 seconds.

Cloak, which is easily broken by almost everything, totally negated by detect pots, magelight, camo hunter, sentry, AoE's, light attacks, pets, blastbones, etc., or dark cloak which is already only a 700-800 tick heal?

Seriously, nightblades have already given up so much there's nothing more left to give. We're at the bottom already and you're asking us to get a shovel and dig deeper.

HalvarIronfist · July 2020

Ezorus wrote: »

- Cheap as heck
- Gap closer
- Stun
- Same range as ranged attacks (not inline with other gap closers)
- AOE
- Undogeable
- Crazy damage
-Instant cast
- Animation is visible enough to block
- Kills before the animation most of the time cause the servers are not good enough

As i recall the was a big purge of overtuned skills a year ago, some made useless *cough* Incap *cough*
And "just block" is not a reply, there's no obvious cast animation, and the servers can't keep up so you DIE BEFORE THE LEAP LANDS

If you build for leap, it serves you well. As a DK, you don't have burst. We have good Dots, which is fair. But as a stamdk, you use leap as your burst combo. Think about that for a moment. Other classes can hit a burst combo WITHOUT ulting. (Warden for an example. In my experience)

Cheap? Incap is cheaper.

Gap closer? Play a nord DK and tell me how much speed you have if you build even off meta without wild hunt.

stun- DB, Incap, ETC.

Same Range? It's an ult, it isn't defined as a gap closer.

AOE- DB, Permafrost/Northern Storm, ETC Other ults are AOE.

Undodgeable- Try blocking. Trust me, it annoys stamdks when they leap and someone blocks.

Crazy damage. For not having a dot, it's on par with DB IMO, much less you have to BUILD for that damage. You won't get a 10k crit leap out of a heavy armor DK ( if so, very very very very rarely.)

Instant cast- Tell that to the Gray Host campaign, where it might fire now or 2 minutes later. Ults shouldn't have a cast time IMO.

Animation is visible enough to block, good point.

Kills before server plays animation is the servers fault, not the skills.

Is leap a good skill, and possibly the best stamina ult (for stamdk) IMO? Hell yes. Does that mean it needs to be nerfed into the ground? No. I main stamdk and my leap is never what kills, often. Only people who die to the leap alone tend to be squishy or low HP already

Vanagrand · July 2020

Sure, after they nerf the speed of the sorcerers and the stealth and jumps of the nightblade.

fred4 · July 2020

MincVinyl wrote: »

What people usually dont understand is why the guards can seem to hard cc you over and over and over. This is because they are using an old removed mechanics most people refer to as a mez or mesmerize. It is a hard cc that you can break, but the thing is if you ever receive damage you snap out of the cc.

So what happens when at a resource is one guard mez's you. then another hits you snapping you out of it. Then another mez's you again.....and so on until they run out of mez's. Much like how a guard will negate you so you run out of the negate to just get negated again. The thing is unless you use the interrupt to break free from the mez before another guard hits you, you will just keep getting chain mez'ed

Thanks for explaining this extremely annoying mechanic. It's interesting to at least know how and why it happens.