Do some of you favor any change?

FlopsyPrince · June 2020

I find it quite humorous that several people here will respond to any thread requesting a change that it is "fine just as it is".

Can anyone explain why this is? Do you never expect any changes to a game you play?

This is not an insult, I am looking for insight. I doubt I will agree with the reasoning, but I would like to know it.

Feric51 · June 2020

I’m one that’s usually up for considering any constructive change but dislike change just for change’s sake.

Now as for the people that just respond with “it’s fine as it is” for any suggested change they could be coming from a couple different points of view. Maybe they’re the “get off my lawn” type who just likes things to stay stagnant and familiar and don’t want to have to adapt to anything they feel may impact their way of playing.

Or possibly they’ve seen ZOS try to make changes “for the better” only for it to backfire and completely break it, or break something else and rather not take a chance that it will happen with the suggested changes.

I think a game that’s 6+ years needs to adapt, so changes will be inevitable, what I don’t like is negative changes (nerfs) on things when they should be implementing positive changes (buffs) to bring the underperforming stuff in line with what they deem is overused.

Edit: A word.

VaranisArano · June 2020

What types of changes are you talking about?

Most "balance" posts are thinly veiled pleas to "buff me and nerf everyone else".

As for gameplay or "QOL" changes...

I tend to look at it from the perspective that no change will happen unless it benefits ZOS above and beyond the status quo. Thus, anyone who is suggesting a change needs to articulate exactly how the proposed change is going to tangibly benefit ZOS if they hope to make that change happen. That's especially true if ZOS has previously explained why we have the current status quo, announced their intent, or repeatedly does the opposite of the suggested change.

So for me, it's often less "things are fine" and more like "Things are working exactly how ZOS intends, in ways that tangibly benefits them. Does your suggestion tangibly benefit them over and above the status quo?"

Usually, the answer is effectively "No, it doesn't, but I want it anyway."
Which is fine, in one sense. We want what we want. Its not wrong to want something that ZOS isn't likely to do.
On the other hand, as a pessimist, I prefer to be clear-eyed about my chances of getting Crown Crates removed from the game. I hate 'em and don't buy 'em, but they are here to stay because they are working precisely as ZOS intends.

Nestor · June 2020

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

idk · June 2020

This game is in a state of constant change. It should be clear those that stick around do deal with change.

As for suggestions made in the forum, just because people do not agree with the suggestion does not mean they are against change. It means they have a different opinion.

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And Nestor has summed it up very appropriately.

Taleof2Cities · June 2020

Awesome stuff ... all the posts above are really good replies.

I don’t have anything to add that’s already been said.

And I usually have something to say ...

tmbrinks · June 2020

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And even some of those good ideas cannot be implemented for a variety of reasons.

idk · June 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And even some of those good ideas cannot be implemented for a variety of reasons.

This is another good point.

redspecter23 · June 2020

Just because someone doesn't like a proposed change, it doesn't mean they don't want any changes. It's perfectly acceptable to like something the way it is. Not everyone will want the same sort of changes.

FlopsyPrince · June 2020

I was more thinking of Crafting-related changes, which is why I picked this forum.

I am not talking about those who find pros and cons to different recommendations. I just find (perhaps I am not seeing clearly) that some never like a proposed change, especially those related to quality of life.

That is what I was asking about.

Thanks for all the replies.

FlopsyPrince · June 2020

idk wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And even some of those good ideas cannot be implemented for a variety of reasons.

This is another good point.

I would ask how both of you know this. Have you had a change you supported before it happened or was promised?

Tommy_The_Gun · June 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most "balance" posts are thinly veiled pleas to "buff me and nerf everyone else".

I partially agree on that. Partialy, because if you start comparing classes / races and what they bring to the table it is clear that there are some that are underperforming by a lot.
Sure there are some ridiculous ideas here and there to buff most OP thing in the game, but mostly I see totally valid reasons with skill comparesments (with cost vs efectivness for example) and it is clear that some things were either missed or ESO has double standards.

Gilvoth · June 2020

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

this ^
well said.

tmbrinks · June 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And even some of those good ideas cannot be implemented for a variety of reasons.

This is another good point.

I would ask how both of you know this. Have you had a change you supported before it happened or was promised?

I was speaking in general terms.

The human mind will always be far ahead of technology and the physical ability to create the items.

Examples include the idea of wireless communicators that were introduced in the original Star Trek, the technology didn't exist then to do that, it eventually came around. (Great idea, impossible to implement at the time)

Somethings are plausible in the future with more computing power, more advancements.

Others never happen. The warp drive also from Star Trek is also theoretically possible, but the energy required is so extreme that you'd literally have to destroy the universe (convert it all to energy) to take a single trip across said universe. (Great idea, impossible/impractical to implement ever)

An example from in-game (and I have to trust ZoS' word on this, I'm not a computer programmer), is the housing item limits. They have said that having more items would make it so that lower-end machines and consoles *could* crash if people stacked the items all close because of the n-body problem and the interaction of the items (as the interactions go up exponentially of the number of items) (great idea, to increase housing limits. Technical limitations prohibit the changes)

ZoS' "solution" to it, was to introduce items that are more complete. Shelves with books on them, more detailed assets, since they only count as 1 "item" in that case.

colossalvoids · June 2020

Well it's more about "will it bring something new and exciting without hurting half the playerbase?" Or just a change for sake of change/being in opposition to some group of people ("meta", evil conspiracy etc.), might be because someone is unwilling to participate in some activity but want to reap the rewards, or wants to participate but lacks certain skills to do so.

idk · June 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And even some of those good ideas cannot be implemented for a variety of reasons.

This is another good point.

I would ask how both of you know this. Have you had a change you supported before it happened or was promised?

Beyond that, Matt Firor has stated they have to weigh the costs/challenges of implementing an idea against the benefit it will bring. This is a thought I would expect from the president of a company. It is good common business sense.

Edit: I saw no reason to go into details beyond this as tmbrinks has provided a worthy reply.

VaranisArano · June 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

idk wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Some change is good. Some change is bad. Some change is misunderstood at first.

Some things that are asked to be changed are dumb ideas. Some are good ideas.

And even some of those good ideas cannot be implemented for a variety of reasons.

This is another good point.

I would ask how both of you know this. Have you had a change you supported before it happened or was promised?

The most recent example is Alliance Change tokens.

Back before Elsweyr, ZOS said there were technical issues for faction change tokens. Now, they've clearly overcome them. Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465498/eso-zos-q-a-information-london-elsweyr-press-event-info/p1

All changes require some level of technical or time investment from ZOS. I'd dearly love for a number of addons to become base game features, such as Combat Metrics or the Lazy Writ Crafter. On the other hand, we've seen relatively few added functionalities, mainly Multicraft and a number of Housing tools (IIRC, they hired the guy who was making the housing addon in the first place?)

So it might be that adding those functionalities as fully supported parts of the base game requires a substantial technical or time investment that ZOS hasn't gotten to yet.
Or it might be that those additions don't fit their vision for the base game, even though I think they'd be great QOL additions.
Unless ZOS says outright, as they did with Alliance Change tokens, we don't really know.

tmbrinks · June 2020

Just to post this as well (to see how far we've come) and changes I've supported in the game.

OneTamriel - allowing players to play with their friends at any level
Transmutation - reduced the "grind" of the game by a factor of 9
Master Writs added into game - gave something more for crafters to do.
Furnishing envelopes purchasable with writ vouchers - reduced grind for plans, drastically reduced cost
Attunable crafting stations - don't have to go overland to do master writs
Bound gear tradeable with group members for 2 hours - reduced grind further
Daily Writs returning max level materials - reduced grind for materials (lowered prices by 80% on PC/NA for those mats too)
Multicraft - significantly reduced time spent refining materials
Jewelry Crafting - Increased set flexibility, new traits to make better builds, more profit for crafters

etc...

FlopsyPrince · June 2020

I am still looking for things that would be supported ahead of time before ZoS announced it. Posts so far would indicate only things ZoS has already done or announced would be approved.

It is made by ZoS , but do only they have any good ideas?

idk · June 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I am still looking for things that would be supported ahead of time before ZoS announced it. Posts so far would indicate only things ZoS has already done or announced would be approved.

It is made by ZoS , but do only they have any good ideas?

The posts indicate ideas that have been presented in the forums and Zos has like them and acted on them. That is the best you will get because we cannot judge the technical difficulty or truly weight the benefit of the game, just the benefit to ourselves and the people we know.

Players have suggested all these ideas that have been implemented. They did not come from Zos.

In the end, some good ideas that are reasonably workable are presented in the forums. However, most ideas are not well thought out our it only considers a limited playstyle or interest in the game.

Let us not forget that Zos added buff/debuff tracking and multi-crafting to the base game due to player suggestions.

Edit: One thing I think is important to bring up. I think some players that present suggestions take it a little personal when critics to the idea are presented. It is likely not personal because we really do not know each other. It is often bringing up negative impacts the idea would bring to some playstyles or other opinions on the matter.

VaranisArano · June 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I am still looking for things that would be supported ahead of time before ZoS announced it. Posts so far would indicate only things ZoS has already done or announced would be approved.

It is made by ZoS , but do only they have any good ideas?

I'm not sure what you mean.

The forums have asked for a number of things that ZOS eventually implemented, though usually years after they were first requested. Adding functions to ESO seems to take a long time even when the Devs are interested in them. Moreover, merely asking for it is no guarantee - ZOS may have a different vision or implement it in their own way that you may hate.

There's no way to say "This is something ZOS will change" ahead of time until they say they are going to change it (or not). Likewise, there's no way to be 100% sure ZOS will never do something.

Are you asking "Would I approve of changes before ZOS says they are doing them?"

Well, sure. I've got a laundry list of things I want. But I'm also very aware of whether or not they are likely to happen.

Take the Lazy Writ Crafter, for example. I use it, and it would be a massive QOL improvement for Console players if ZOS were to make it base game.

But will it happen?
Maybe?
On the one hand, ZOS did add Multicraft, which was formerly only available to PC players. So there's precedent.
On the other, they might not want to fundamentally embrace the way Lazy Writ Crafter changes the gameplay of daily writs. They might want to keep that as an option only.
Maybe they don't want to make the technical and time investment to support it as part of the base game right now because they have other priorities.
Maybe they can't. I dunno. I don't know the coding side of ESO at all.

Realistically, I don't get my hopes up for any change until ZOS announces it. Until they do, I tend to pay attention to the likely reasons ZOS won't do it.

FlopsyPrince · July 2020

I understand the comments, but I still have not see anyone who normally opposes things say what they support (or supported) before it was granted.

Saying that many ideas are bad or not well thought out or whatever is not what I am asking.

It does look like those who oppose new ideas (in general here especially) always do so. I was wanting something showing I was wrong in this view, but all I see here is reasoning why things can't be done, which fits with not liking any suggestions.

Note that this is not concerning whether changes will ever happen nor is it about other things. Only about whether those who say "no" do so in general. It seems that is true, unfortunately.

katanagirl1 · July 2020

I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion based on all the comments above

VaranisArano · July 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I understand the comments, but I still have not see anyone who normally opposes things say what they support (or supported) before it was granted.

Saying that many ideas are bad or not well thought out or whatever is not what I am asking.

It does look like those who oppose new ideas (in general here especially) always do so. I was wanting something showing I was wrong in this view, but all I see here is reasoning why things can't be done, which fits with not liking any suggestions.

Note that this is not concerning whether changes will ever happen nor is it about other things. Only about whether those who say "no" do so in general. It seems that is true, unfortunately.

Okay, now I think I understand what you meant. You want receipts. You want us to justify to you whether or not we've ever advocated for a change that ZOS eventually implemented.

Seriously? We're not generally contrarian for the sake of putting down new ideas or upholding the status quo. Most of us put serious thought into how those suggestions impact the game.

But since you want proof...
Let's look at ZOS' most recent addition of Alliance Change Token, which I have explained to you on this thread that ZOS themselves said it was technically difficult to do.

Turns out I've been supporting that idea for quite some time!

Probably my favorite comment of mine in support of faction change tokens is this one from October 2018:

VaranisArano wrote: »

I would like an Alliance Chage token. I only play EP in PVP, but I made an AD and DC character before One Tamriel. I do have the Any Race, Any Alliance upgrade, so that wouldnt be a problem.

My Vestige and 8 other characters yell "Blood for the Pact!"

*awkward silence from my AD hero and DC Silencer*

"Blood for the, uhm, Green Pact?"

"Blood for the Night Mother. The sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5562252#Comment_5562252

There are also examples of things I'm currently asking for that haven't happened yet, like fixing doors in Cyrodiil and IC so questers won't get killed in loading screens: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524204/midyear-mayhem-v6-0-1-problems

So I hate to burst your bubble, but if I'm detailing the potential problems I see with your suggestion, or explaining why ZOS might not want to make your suggested changes, its because I genuinely think there are issues with the idea from either my perspective as a player or ZOS' likely viewpoint as Devs/a business. Its NOT because I'm reflexively opposed to all change.

Bucky_13 · July 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I was more thinking of Crafting-related changes, which is why I picked this forum.

I am not talking about those who find pros and cons to different recommendations. I just find (perhaps I am not seeing clearly) that some never like a proposed change, especially those related to quality of life.

That is what I was asking about.

Thanks for all the replies.

As far as crafting goes, it one of the things that ESO does way better than any other MMO I've played. It's worth the time investment and I find it enjoyable.

While minor tweaks and improvements are welcome, like the mass crafting/deconstructed recently added. It's an area where I don't see the need for major changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix kind of.

That said, being able to filet stacks of fish would be nice. That's about it for what I wanna change.

VaranisArano · July 2020

Bucky_13 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I was more thinking of Crafting-related changes, which is why I picked this forum.

I am not talking about those who find pros and cons to different recommendations. I just find (perhaps I am not seeing clearly) that some never like a proposed change, especially those related to quality of life.

That is what I was asking about.

Thanks for all the replies.

As far as crafting goes, it one of the things that ESO does way better than any other MMO I've played. It's worth the time investment and I find it enjoyable.

While minor tweaks and improvements are welcome, like the mass crafting/deconstructed recently added. It's an area where I don't see the need for major changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix kind of.

That said, being able to filet stacks of fish would be nice. That's about it for what I wanna change.

I'm not sure why filleting wasn't added to Multicraft, even though it would be a great addition! Maybe its because its a different RNG set? I dunno, but it would be lovely to not stand there for ten minutes cutting up my fish.

tmbrinks · July 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I hate to burst your bubble, but if I'm detailing the potential problems I see with your suggestion, or explaining why ZOS might not want to make your suggested changes, its because I genuinely think there are issues with the idea from either my perspective as a player or ZOS' likely viewpoint as Devs/a business. Its NOT because I'm reflexively opposed to all change.

This. I think it was stated earlier, but a disagreement with an idea should not be seen as a personal slight, and I feel like the OP has taken them as such in their other threads advocating for some changes.

They also seemingly want us to
1. Come up with a "new" out-of-the-box idea
2. Have ZoS implement it
3. Prove to them that we did so and post that proof.

I don't know if the OP has ever been in a "brainstorming" session where there are hundreds of people. There are hundreds, if not thousands of ideas. It's impossible for most of them to even see the light of day. There is no obligation for ZoS to tell us what they've considered, what their internal discussions are. I'm fairly certain that they have had internal discussions for many of the topics that have come up (many of them probably well before we brought them up) and have then decided that it
1. Didn't fit their vision of the game
2. Wasn't an option
3. Wasn't possible
4. Etc...

(And since I know much of this is directed towards myself (as well as some others) for my comments in another thread)
Here are a few suggestions that I've made over the years on the forums:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/515544/suggestion-alchemy-surveys
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/525727/storage-space-increase-request-probably-again
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496379/deconstruction-material-return-suggestion
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442719/future-updates-suggestions-for-q1

These are just threads I've started... not even counting comments in other threads.

Sadly, I can't provide you with a receipt, because ZoS hasn't used any of my ideas.

tmbrinks · July 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bucky_13 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I was more thinking of Crafting-related changes, which is why I picked this forum.

I am not talking about those who find pros and cons to different recommendations. I just find (perhaps I am not seeing clearly) that some never like a proposed change, especially those related to quality of life.

That is what I was asking about.

Thanks for all the replies.

As far as crafting goes, it one of the things that ESO does way better than any other MMO I've played. It's worth the time investment and I find it enjoyable.

While minor tweaks and improvements are welcome, like the mass crafting/deconstructed recently added. It's an area where I don't see the need for major changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix kind of.

That said, being able to filet stacks of fish would be nice. That's about it for what I wanna change.

I'm not sure why filleting wasn't added to Multicraft, even though it would be a great addition! Maybe its because its a different RNG set? I dunno, but it would be lovely to not stand there for ten minutes cutting up my fish.

I'm sure I've said this as well somewhere myself. Easy, simple QOL addition that has precedence in the game already (multicraft)

FlopsyPrince · July 2020

You seem to be having fun patting each other on the back, but I wasn't asking for your support of any idea I have advocated. I was just asking if people like you (VaranisArano and tmbrinks here) ever advocated a proposed change before ZoS had already approved it.

I suppose multi-filet for fish would be the first I have seen, though even that was not directly advocated.

I am not asking if you support my ideas. Perhaps they are really are all bad. (I doubt that, including because I have significant development experience and thus understand some of that aspect as well.) But that was not the question, though it seems to be one thing you keep answering.

I am looking for evidence those like yourselves ever support anything rather than always being against things.

This is important because you can never really discuss ideas if many who participate only put down whatever idea is presented. That is why I asked the question.

Any given idea may of course be bad, but that does not mean all ideas or suggestions are bad, but that is the idea that gets put forth in the discussions on improvements I have seen, especially in the Crafting area where this was posted.

(I am not addressing the "nerf this" and "buff that" discussions. Those will always happen in MMOs.)

I am not sure if this will make the point clear, but I am not sure how to make it clearer.

tmbrinks · July 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You seem to be having fun patting each other on the back, but I wasn't asking for your support of any idea I have advocated. I was just asking if people like you (VaranisArano and tmbrinks here) ever advocated a proposed change before ZoS had already approved it.

I suppose multi-filet for fish would be the first I have seen, though even that was not directly advocated.

I am not asking if you support my ideas. Perhaps they are really are all bad. (I doubt that, including because I have significant development experience and thus understand some of that aspect as well.) But that was not the question, though it seems to be one thing you keep answering.

I am looking for evidence those like yourselves ever support anything rather than always being against things.

This is important because you can never really discuss ideas if many who participate only put down whatever idea is presented. That is why I asked the question.

Any given idea may of course be bad, but that does not mean all ideas or suggestions are bad, but that is the idea that gets put forth in the discussions on improvements I have seen, especially in the Crafting area where this was posted.

(I am not addressing the "nerf this" and "buff that" discussions. Those will always happen in MMOs.)

I am not sure if this will make the point clear, but I am not sure how to make it clearer.

Dude, we've both given examples of us proposing changes. What more do you want?

Just because they haven't been accepted by ZoS...

I honestly don't get what you are arguing/advocating/proposing/etc...

The very nature of us proposing ideas is "evidence those like yourselves ever support anything"

Disturbed_One · July 2020

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

You seem to be having fun patting each other on the back, but I wasn't asking for your support of any idea I have advocated. I was just asking if people like you (VaranisArano and tmbrinks here) ever advocated a proposed change before ZoS had already approved it.

I suppose multi-filet for fish would be the first I have seen, though even that was not directly advocated.

I am not asking if you support my ideas. Perhaps they are really are all bad. (I doubt that, including because I have significant development experience and thus understand some of that aspect as well.) But that was not the question, though it seems to be one thing you keep answering.

I am looking for evidence those like yourselves ever support anything rather than always being against things.

This is important because you can never really discuss ideas if many who participate only put down whatever idea is presented. That is why I asked the question.

Any given idea may of course be bad, but that does not mean all ideas or suggestions are bad, but that is the idea that gets put forth in the discussions on improvements I have seen, especially in the Crafting area where this was posted.

(I am not addressing the "nerf this" and "buff that" discussions. Those will always happen in MMOs.)

I am not sure if this will make the point clear, but I am not sure how to make it clearer.

You can't be serious right now? (can you?)

Both @tmbrinks and @VaranisArano as well as others in this thread have given multiple examples of them advocating for changes.

[snip]
[edited to remove baiting comments]