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If you are a fake tank ...
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Thoragaal✭✭✭✭✭... please don't die to the first attack of Selene ( shouldn't fake tanking dds have heard of dodge rolling?)
I'm so sick of fake tanks aka dds who claim " ... but tanks aren't needed in non-dlc vet dungeons ..."
If that's your opinion as a fake tank than at least prove that your capable of performing basic combat maneuvers.
There's a plethora of fake tanks out there. However, not everyone's intention is to deliberately be a "fake" tank.
Many times people are just inexperienced.
I've seen people with more than 1000cp that doesn't use more than a single skill to DPS.
I've seen people with around 400cp that play like they'd been doing it for years.
Some people are just plain bad. Others have a several years of gaming experience. Some people just don't care.
Did you try helping this "fake tank" to better understand the basics of tanking?
Don't be elusive: we all know what "fake tanks" are, we are not talking about bad or noob tanks.
How do you manage to assess that the guy was a fake tank based solely on the fact that he died "to the first attack of Selene"?
After he died to the first attack of Selene he got rezzed ... and during the rest of the very long fight Selene was mostly on me, there obviously was never a taunt on her and also no crowd control with the lots of adds. I was well occupied with keeping an eye on Selene to not get the bear attack, make some damage to the thousands of adds and somehow finish the fight.
Sounds like a "fun" experience
I've had the same thing happening to me several times. Like I said before, I've seen DDs with over 1000 CPs and only using one ability. I've had "tanks" that have the HP and CP, looking legit, but after talking to them I've been getting answers like "I mostly play solo, I thought I would try tanking" and many of those people don't even know how to taunt.
I just think it's important to distinguish between the high lvl DD that's only trying to get the dungeon done asap, and therefor queue as a tank without showing any kind of consideration for the rest of the group, and the (most of the time) clueless player.
My original point was more or less about me trying to make you change your perspective on what's happening. It's far less frustrating dealing with with someone that's just "clueless", than having to deal with someone that just doesn't care; one can learn, the other one won't
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
"I've always wanted to kick a duck up the arse" -Karl Pilkington, on the question what he'd do if it was the last day on earth.0 -
PieMaster1✭✭✭✭I queue as a tank for low wait times, in NonCp dungeons it’s really not that hard to “tank”/DPS, especially if you’re a healer or dragonknight0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Here's an arguably better rhetorical question - did you read the OP?
Yes, I did.
The dungeon works fine with a fake tank until you get to Selene. As long as everything's going alright, there's no reason to kick a fake anything.Edited by Varana on June 11, 2020 1:13PM0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭so you consider someone a "tank" because it can bypass mechanics with his health and resistances? some mechanics, like your Selene example, are not to be tanked. Many bosses and mechanics don't require a tank. That's one of the reasons i have hybrid (that's what i like to call them instead of fake) tanks. They are equipped with a taunt and enough mitigation to survive average encounters. Depending on the difficulty, i lower the dps output and mitigate damage. Even with medium armor and no shield equipped, i can solo Selene (and pretty much any non-dlc vet). People i encounter quite often wouldn't even be able to finish dungeons even with real tanks, or would stay 1 hour for some dungeons.
playing a hybrid tank dps helps me bypass queue, helps me finish dungeons faster, helps others finish the dungeon faster (or at all). But i know mechanics and how to survive. So don't blame "fake" tanks, blame the people that do this without knowing what they are doing.
You sound like one of the most frustrating kinds of fake tanks: the "kite" tank. You may think you're great because you "know the mechanics and how to survive", but you're really hurting the group overall because you're focusing on mechanics instead of doing DD-appropriate damage while also kiting bosses out of everyone's AoE (ultimately reducing overall group DPS).Edited by the1andonlyskwex on June 11, 2020 1:29PM17 -
Amksed1991✭✭✭I wish I had the option to queue with a 3rd DPS.
I can heal and tank on my MagSorc.0 -
Algorax✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »I've been suggesting special rewards for tanks to incentivate the role for quite some time but with no avail...
Fake tanks are already cheaters exploiting the queue. You want them to cheat and get the special reward too?
I think you underestimate the willingness of players to exploit whatever they can in this game.
I am not underestimating anything: [snip] the basic principle of supply and demand.
By encouraging the tank role more will join with such role. When a fake tank, which IS NOT necessarily a bad thing, proves to be unfitting for the situation you may just kick him but the difference will be that now you will have a wider variety, number of replacements, waiting to join to harvest the rewards, which will be granted once the whole run is completed.
Problem solved.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on June 11, 2020 6:50PM0 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭I find random Q interesting on my tank. When I do random Q on my DD or healer rarely do I see a tank. When I q on my tank I get 3 tanks. Yes I said 3 tanks. So instead of the player Qing as a tank whey they are using Sword & Shield they Qd as a healer or a DD. I'm like OMG why....This occurred in VET dungeons. I'm like nope, I'm out. I didn't have an hour or two to waste inside of Crypt of Hearts 1 because the damage these players were doing was worst than my tank and my tank doesn't do great damage to begin with.
3 -
Algorax✭✭✭✭... please don't die to the first attack of Selene ( shouldn't fake tanking dds have heard of dodge rolling?)
I'm so sick of fake tanks aka dds who claim " ... but tanks aren't needed in non-dlc vet dungeons ..."
If that's your opinion as a fake tank than at least prove that your capable of performing basic combat maneuvers.
There's a plethora of fake tanks out there. However, not everyone's intention is to deliberately be a "fake" tank.
Many times people are just inexperienced.
I've seen people with more than 1000cp that doesn't use more than a single skill to DPS.
I've seen people with around 400cp that play like they'd been doing it for years.
Some people are just plain bad. Others have a several years of gaming experience. Some people just don't care.
Did you try helping this "fake tank" to better understand the basics of tanking?
Don't be elusive: we all know what "fake tanks" are, we are not talking about bad or noob tanks.
How do you manage to assess that the guy was a fake tank based solely on the fact that he died "to the first attack of Selene"?
A bad tank is a player of a certain level who, despite the gear, has no mastery over his own art.
A noob tank is either someone with not enough time spent in game to be good or geared enough
a FAKE TANK is a player deliberately joining as tank while geared as DD. The difference between a GOOD FAKE TANK and a BAD FAKE TANK are:
1) aggro management
2) roll/dodge/parry use
3) build management
4) External factor such as relation to team comp
suceeding in those fields allows a dd to sucessfully perform as a "FAKE TANK".
This is the way to discern tanks from fake tanks and good ones from bad ones.2 -
AmoralOne✭✭✭✭To be fair to myself a known Fake Tank, I always always do it on my PvP Healer, and I slot the SnB Taunt, and I ONLY do Normal stuff when im fake tanking.PC NA - EP's Greatest Support0 -
Algorax✭✭✭✭gatekeeper13 wrote: »Fake tank = instant kick
No one asked for a fake tank in order to complete the dungeon faster.
If you want 3DD/1H run, form your own group and do it.
And the only reason fake tanks exist in group finder, is because some DDs don't want to wait in queue.
You must be new to the game: never heard of 3 DD vet runs?0 -
SolidusPrime✭✭✭✭He's kind of right - An actual tank isn't necessarily NEEDED, but it seems like most of the guys that try to replace tanking with damage fail miserably and then blame it on other people. I don't even mess around with it anymore unless I am with guild mates and know I won't need to carry them.1
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Rinthetharmo✭✭✭Fake tanking should be banable imo, its cheating ur way into something faster than u have a right to because u are greedy and selfish.12
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am not a fake tank, but I do love entering the queue and then after dungeon pops taking two steps and leaving. Does that make me a fake tank after all?0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It would not surprise me that fake tanks would die to Selene. Back when I would queue solo as a healer because I could easily out DPS DDs in random GF groups while still healing I found that the fake tanks were not very good DDs either in both their damage output and ability to deal with mechanics. I figured that is why they are queueing solo to begin with and experiences like this are why I only queue with guild groups now.2 -
Foefaller✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »I've been suggesting special rewards for tanks to incentivate the role for quite some time but with no avail...
Fake tanks are already cheaters exploiting the queue. You want them to cheat and get the special reward too?
I think you underestimate the willingness of players to exploit whatever they can in this game.
I think they mean, if there was incentive, more actual tanks would join to hopefully counter the fake tanks trying to join.
but yeah it wont stop fake tanks still trying.
I wonder how much work on the back end and thus how doable it would be to maybe scan the player for equptment and abilites and maybe cp? to then only allow them to select to join as tank?
You could probably condition unlocking the ability to queue as a tank for X difficult content by completing some minor quest that tests you, i.e. "survive X amount of time against this dude." Might not stop them from swaping in their DPS right after, but at least gets in their head the baseline they are expected to meet.
In fact, it seems really weird that there is no publicity available way to do any sort of dps/sustain/etc check on target dummies, only by getting a dummy yourself for your house (none of which, as far as I'm aware, being easy or cheap to get) or being in a guild with a hall that has one.
Another thing could be to bump Inner Fire to the top of the Undaunted skill tree, and make slotting it on one of your skillbars a hard req to queuing as a tank (snb and frost staff taunts wouldn't work without a gear check to make sure they actually have an snb or frost staff on them.) Again, doesn't ensure they're equipped for it, but at least makes sure they can fulfill their primary job.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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Because what often can happen when you indulge a fake tank till the end is you reach a boss who has a hard hitting move that will kill you unless you actually have some defense. And even if you kick them at that point - you'll end up waiting forever to get a replacement. Or when you finally do get a real tank to replace them... he or she is more likely to drop because they are trying to get their pledge done and would prefer to do the entire dungeon (not just the last boss). So it will end up being a failed run in the end regardless only with a lot more wasted time.
Edited by Jeremy on June 11, 2020 4:31PM7 -
AmoralOne✭✭✭✭Honestly if you dont like fake tanks... Become the tank. Your DPS doesnt matter. you DD, she DD, he DD. You all sit in the same pool of replaceable af. So again I say. Become the Tank.PC NA - EP's Greatest Support5
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CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Honestly if you dont like fake tanks... Become the tank. Your DPS doesnt matter. you DD, she DD, he DD. You all sit in the same pool of replaceable af. So again I say. Become the Tank.
Exactly what I did.
Literally immune to fake tanks now.In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!2 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My Stam-Warden is a tank/dps hybrid with heavy armor. Bow and SNB. I get accused of being squishy sometimes as he does take slightly more dmg than a full tank with tank glyphs etc, armor etc but my groups rarely wipe. I only run normals that I can't run solo with him and can taunt pretty darn good as my main is a dk tank fully decked out so I know most of the mechanics except the newer dungeons.
I actually like it better as when a group wipes because they dont know the mechanics I can pretty much save us all or just finish the boss myself by switching back and forth from bow to SnB. As stated in this post the biggest issue is that if a group kicks a fake tank they have to wait forever to get a replacement this needs to be solved, one of my other toons is a mag sorc pet with nice dps and id love to kick a few loud mouthed tanks just because they are jerks but nobody ever votes with me.Edited by Veinblood1965 on June 11, 2020 8:29PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The funny thing is that most of the time i am in a fake tank group, they never manage to do great dps.
At least you should do immense damage if you queue for something you are not, yet, 3 dd, still doing about 55% of the damage... I'm not seeing the great dps, just above average.Edited by JinMori on June 11, 2020 9:53PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is that most of the time i am in a fake tank group, they never manage to do great dps.
At least you should do immense damage if you queue for something you are not, yet, 3 dd, still doing about 55% of the damage... I'm not seeing the great dps, just above average.
And they tend to be bad with mechanics.
I do not know why fake tanks are still an issue. It is so easy to have an off-spec for tanking. Just kick the fake tank, use your off-speck, and get a DPS to fill the vacancy. The fake tank gets taught a lesson and the rest of the group gets to move on and clear the dungeon.2 -
Deloth_Vyrr✭✭✭If its not a Vet DLC I will take a "fake tank" any day of the week over a regular tank. Everything is just so much faster and I can get my pledges, or whatever it is I'm doing done so much faster. Not only are real tanks not needed for most things, but having a "fake tank" helps offset when you get new or bad DD who just slow everything down with their horrible dps.
I que as healer on my Magsorc DD (I do use the Twilight Matriarch to keep the group alive, more than enough healing for anything outside of Vet DLCs) and spend most of the time DPSing. I love it when I get a "fake tank" and we can just blast through a dungeon, most of the time it is much smoother and faster than a traditional 1T,1H,2DD setup ever could be.Edited by Deloth_Vyrr on June 11, 2020 11:59PM<Twin-Moons Covenant> PC NA
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
Voice of Reason
Shadow Breaker
Flawless Conqueror5 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The funny thing is that most of the time i am in a fake tank group, they never manage to do great dps.
At least you should do immense damage if you queue for something you are not, yet, 3 dd, still doing about 55% of the damage... I'm not seeing the great dps, just above average.
And they tend to be bad with mechanics.
I do not know why fake tanks are still an issue. It is so easy to have an off-spec for tanking. Just kick the fake tank, use your off-speck, and get a DPS to fill the vacancy. The fake tank gets taught a lesson and the rest of the group gets to move on and clear the dungeon.
I find it a bit disrespectful to be honest, if you are queuing as a tank but really are dps, you should do a lot of damage to fill the void of a lacking a tank.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is that most of the time i am in a fake tank group, they never manage to do great dps.
At least you should do immense damage if you queue for something you are not, yet, 3 dd, still doing about 55% of the damage... I'm not seeing the great dps, just above average.
And they tend to be bad with mechanics.
I do not know why fake tanks are still an issue. It is so easy to have an off-spec for tanking. Just kick the fake tank, use your off-speck, and get a DPS to fill the vacancy. The fake tank gets taught a lesson and the rest of the group gets to move on and clear the dungeon.
I find it a bit disrespectful to be honest, if you are queuing as a tank but really are dps, you should do a lot of damage to fill the void of a lacking a tank.
I do agree. It is selfish by design. However, being that the only true requirement for being a tank is to have a taunt there is not much Zos can really do without causing more problems. Last time they seemed to try to fix the situation they made it so we could only queue for one role. That is the only reason I can see for that change and it did nothing to benefit the GF.
Fortunately, I no longer queue solo. I run with guildmates. Granted, sometimes we queue with only 3 in the group to see what we get as we can carry most anyone through most dungeons. But that is the solution. Form your own group and the benefits go much farther than avoiding a fake tank.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The funny thing is that most of the time i am in a fake tank group, they never manage to do great dps.
At least you should do immense damage if you queue for something you are not, yet, 3 dd, still doing about 55% of the damage... I'm not seeing the great dps, just above average.
And they tend to be bad with mechanics.
I do not know why fake tanks are still an issue. It is so easy to have an off-spec for tanking. Just kick the fake tank, use your off-speck, and get a DPS to fill the vacancy. The fake tank gets taught a lesson and the rest of the group gets to move on and clear the dungeon.
I find it a bit disrespectful to be honest, if you are queuing as a tank but really are dps, you should do a lot of damage to fill the void of a lacking a tank.
I do agree. It is selfish by design. However, being that the only true requirement for being a tank is to have a taunt there is not much Zos can really do without causing more problems. Last time they seemed to try to fix the situation they made it so we could only queue for one role. That is the only reason I can see for that change and it did nothing to benefit the GF.
Fortunately, I no longer queue solo. I run with guildmates. Granted, sometimes we queue with only 3 in the group to see what we get as we can carry most anyone through most dungeons. But that is the solution. Form your own group and the benefits go much farther than avoiding a fake tank.
Yea i am not asking for zos to do anything, the solution is already at players discretion, whether they want to keep the fake tank or not, and get a new one, which could take a long time, but yea, the solution is already there, annoying but it's not out of your control, or, you could just leave, that's also an option. Or make your own group, that is also an option as you pointed out.Edited by JinMori on June 11, 2020 11:15PM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is that most of the time i am in a fake tank group, they never manage to do great dps.
At least you should do immense damage if you queue for something you are not, yet, 3 dd, still doing about 55% of the damage... I'm not seeing the great dps, just above average.
And they tend to be bad with mechanics.
I do not know why fake tanks are still an issue. It is so easy to have an off-spec for tanking. Just kick the fake tank, use your off-speck, and get a DPS to fill the vacancy. The fake tank gets taught a lesson and the rest of the group gets to move on and clear the dungeon.
I find it a bit disrespectful to be honest, if you are queuing as a tank but really are dps, you should do a lot of damage to fill the void of a lacking a tank.
I do agree. It is selfish by design. However, being that the only true requirement for being a tank is to have a taunt there is not much Zos can really do without causing more problems. Last time they seemed to try to fix the situation they made it so we could only queue for one role. That is the only reason I can see for that change and it did nothing to benefit the GF.
Fortunately, I no longer queue solo. I run with guildmates. Granted, sometimes we queue with only 3 in the group to see what we get as we can carry most anyone through most dungeons. But that is the solution. Form your own group and the benefits go much farther than avoiding a fake tank.
Yea i am not asking for zos to do anything, the solution is already at players discretion, whether they want to keep the fake tank or not, and get a new one, which could take a long time, but yea.
That is why having an alt role is so beneficial. I do not change my CP to tank on a CP. I just swap my gear and abilities.0 -
Lisutaris✭✭✭✭✭If they are just new players or try to tank and queued as tank... well, as long as we can finish why not.
Some look "fake" but have taunt equipped, just selfish tank sets and no idea about tanking at all... but they try to do it.
If they are "dd fakers" ... I like to carry and kick them before getting to final boss and thanking them for being a "faker" up until now and wish best luck next time. Sometimes I am nice and ask for taunt and orbs before doing that tho'... depends on them and responses in chat.
>> This only counts for (difficult) VET content ! I don't really care in norm daily runs .
Also generates a lot of nice whispers for my collection.
The salt just keeps going and so does my fun.
Basic rule. Don't lie to others, also not your grp members.
When I am waiting for ~30mins to get my grp as DD ! (real dd) I want to have some support from tank/heal... and do my job and enjoy my numbers. Not interested in 4 DD runs and queue-skipper, sry.
Edited by Lisutaris on June 11, 2020 11:46PM2 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »I've been suggesting special rewards for tanks to incentivate the role for quite some time but with no avail...
Fake tanks are already cheaters exploiting the queue. You want them to cheat and get the special reward too?
I think you underestimate the willingness of players to exploit whatever they can in this game.
I think they mean, if there was incentive, more actual tanks would join to hopefully counter the fake tanks trying to join.
but yeah it wont stop fake tanks still trying.
I wonder how much work on the back end and thus how doable it would be to maybe scan the player for equptment and abilites and maybe cp? to then only allow them to select to join as tank?
We could try a longer-term incentive to actually make a real tank / real healer and it wouldn't help dungeons per se. But it could help tanks and healers develop at least.
A possibility is to let real tanks and real healers who queue as such in a TRIAL get extra goodies, like a tank/healer specific bag of gear.
Sure, the Trial group might cheat and let someone fake the role just to get the goods, but it would be tank/healer specific, so it wouldn't do them good unless they also actually wanted to be a tank/healer. And the real tank/healer would have to agree to give up their bonus reward for the run -- so the faking/cheating is opt-in, not out of your control.
It would take some re-coding to enforce the 2/2/8 T/H/D role ratio to make it work though, since right now trial groups all do walk-in basically.Edited by Dusk_Coven on June 12, 2020 12:12AM0
This discussion has been closed.