If you are a fake tank ...

Varana

I am currently not quite sure what I find more annoying:

Fake tanks, when I'm not a tank.
Bad DDs, when I'm a tank.
Wannabe speedrunners who don't care for the rest of the team.

Probably #3.

Dusk_Coven

deLioncourt wrote: »

A tank wearing Yol and Alkosh is increasing dps of a GOOD player by nearly 10-15k. True story. A garbage dps is still gonna pull garbage dps even if the Tank is in Yol and Alkosh. I can pull 75-80k on my stamdk. With extra synergies coming at me on the Iron Atro, ive hit 90k on my Stamdk.

While your tank is providing 129 wpn dmg and some extra pene from Alkosh and Yol..to garbage dps..that doesn't amount to anything extra. 129 wpn dmg and some extra pene means nothing when the dps you're buffing is only light attack spamming.

Just be happy that the hour-long Fungal Grotto 1 you just entered is only going to take 9 minutes. Yep. That was my fast solo time for FG1 VetHM SOLO. 9 Minutes.

Zone in, run straight to the first boss, kill everything, jump off the waterfall, kill the crabs that inevitably aggro, trigger HM..defeat boss. I've solo'd the final boss of FG1 on HM in 50 seconds.

I just don't have the time left in my life to spend an hour doing something with 4 people that takes less than 10 minutes to do solo.

Sure, you can leave the group if you want, but then you get the 15 minute wait til you can use the queue again..and in that 15 minute wait..you could've just completed the dungeon and moved on.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler This is just another reason why all animation cancellation exploits should have been stopped when they were first identified. The content was never balanced for it and it has attracted and bred a demographic that is intensely arrogant and selfish. They don't just take pride in exploiting every other mechanic they can -- shortcutting dungeons and cheating the Group Finder for faster rewards in this case -- but they actually feel they are justified and entitled to exploit.

@ZOS_Finn This post and others like it show that we are overdue for Solo Modes for all dungeons. Admit that there is a sizable demographic of selfish people willing to cheat and exploit even the Group Finder to get extra rewards and they are more than willing to ruin the experience for other people. There are many, many, other benefits of Solo Mode dungeons. Continuing to force players into Group dungeons is an outdated concept. And ESO has attracted a sizable player base, with reasons either legitimate or otherwise -- that is simply not interested in being forced to Group.

Rahar

If you don't like fake tanks, kick them. It's not rocket science, and getting yourself worked up over something the game does nothing to stop is pissing in a headwind.

LashanW

Sergykid wrote: »

on my mag tank, bahraha grothdarr bsw. I keep alive by healing and blocking, and if i dodge through the boss he doesn't move from its place. On my stam tank i use VO selene agility and frost vma (to block with mag) and heal with vigor, also dodge like already mentioned. Health 25k is enough, and i can do 30k dps with this nearly half a tank setup that also keeps me alive in any vet non-dlc. In dlc vets i just equip a spell that gives me more mitigation, like undaunted bone shield or the such.

I see. So you're basically a medicore dd who taunts. (no debuffing or stacking?) It's not this "mitigation" that is desirable from an actual tank.

A proper tank would increase group dps similar to any "fake" tank's solo dps. A proper tank will stack the enemies nicely and debuff bosses by a big margin. Infused crusher + Alkosh + major fracture/breach (and tremorscale now) will increase dps of a single dd by about 15%+ on boss fights. A proper tank will also provide more warhorn uptimes and other debuffs (stone giant if DK tank, and it's so easy to keep up 3 stagger stacks in vet non dlc dungeons). Then there is off balance uptimes. My Dk main tank run livewire + alkosh. Livewire is basically aoe off balance + aoe minor vulnerability to everything around you. This is a big increase to group dps, especially in stacked trash fights.

At the end of the day, difference of group dps between a group with a proper tank and a group with a fake tank is marginal. Main difference is that the dungeon run will be less messy with a proper tank.

The most common argument from fake tanks is that they "increase group dps by a lot / finish dungeon quicker". Which is true if both other dds are bad at dps. But if both other dds are competent, fake tanks will only make the dungeon run more messier and unpleasant especially if no one is taunting.

I generally don't care if someone is fake tanking as long as they maintain a taunt and don't die always. But failing that, people have every right to kick these fakers who cannot bother to spend time in dungeon finder, and waste the time of 3 other players that do wait.

Twilanthe

I don't mind "fake tanks" so long as they don't cause the group to wipe. If a DPS wants to queue as a tank, go for it, but you better be able to fill the tank role if one is actually needed for mechanics. Use a few extra points, grab inner fire and some kind of shield spell/mitigation, use potions, and hold aggro when it's necessary.

As a healer I am kind of a hybrid healer/DPS because in 90% of dungeons I only need to throw down some AOE heals, have my spirit mender up, and occasionally cast a quick reactive heal. Otherwise I'm focusing DPS, and in all trash and most boss fights, I don't need to do any more than have combat prayer down and spirit mender up. But I AM the healer, so I don't mind shifting to focus on healing instead if I need to. And I don't mind doing a dungeon here or there where I need to focus 50/50 heal/dps or even 90/10 heal/dps because we've got a squishy DPS "tank" I need to keep alive.

The only time having a fake tank bothers me is when that "tank" is a glass cannon, can't survive any mechanics that do more than 10-15k damage, and can't hold aggro on one of the very few boss encounters that really require it. But honestly even then, I just don't rez them (out of spite), toss up my spell armor, throw inner fire on my bar, and take over tanking AND healing.

Thechuckage

Varana wrote: »

I am currently not quite sure what I find more annoying:

Fake tanks, when I'm not a tank.
Bad DDs, when I'm a tank.
Wannabe speedrunners who don't care for the rest of the team.

Probably #3.

Definitely #3, followed by #1. If I'm dps and the boss is on me because you didnt want to slot a taunt, guess who's running the boss is a big ole circle until it dies?
And if someone is doing that to you when you weren't holding aggro, you have zero room to complain.

Grandchamp1989

I've been playing with "fake tanks" who melted everything in sight and were an unstoppable force.
And I've been with "fake tanks" who ran around like a headless chicken trying not to die from the enemy looking in their direction.


The way I see it is like when I'm tanking.

If a DPS want to run ahead of me to pull a buttload of adds in every direction to create plays he better be able to back it up with some proper damage.
If he creates situations he can't handle so the Tank and healer has to work double to keep the situation under control it is not acceptable.

If the fake tank can back it up with damage.. sure be my guest. If he creates problems for everyone, que up as your role, please.

People should know their limits.

Tessitura

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I was once accused of being a fake - tank...
... only because some one had an addon or something and I was doing same dps as our dps (7K or something like that)

On the other hand I once was kicked because I was the only one who did not died... you know... it was apparently huge injustice that dps died, healer died, but tank did not...

I am not going to lie you were probably kicked for eating up time. I am not big on rushing dungeons, but it can be annoying when the group essentially wipes and there is the one guy that refuses to die so everyone else has to watched for 10 minutes as this guy tries to solo a boss they could have been done with 8 minutes ago if he just let it reset. Show boating is generally not appreciated unless the boss is almost dead.

I know when I am the last one up and the boss has more then 20% health left and I can't res anyone, I just reset. Even if I could solo from there.

Sergykid

LashanW wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

on my mag tank, bahraha grothdarr bsw. I keep alive by healing and blocking, and if i dodge through the boss he doesn't move from its place. On my stam tank i use VO selene agility and frost vma (to block with mag) and heal with vigor, also dodge like already mentioned. Health 25k is enough, and i can do 30k dps with this nearly half a tank setup that also keeps me alive in any vet non-dlc. In dlc vets i just equip a spell that gives me more mitigation, like undaunted bone shield or the such.

I see. So you're basically a medicore dd who taunts. (no debuffing or stacking?) It's not this "mitigation" that is desirable from an actual tank.

A proper tank would increase group dps similar to any "fake" tank's solo dps. A proper tank will stack the enemies nicely and debuff bosses by a big margin. Infused crusher + Alkosh + major fracture/breach (and tremorscale now) will increase dps of a single dd by about 15%+ on boss fights. A proper tank will also provide more warhorn uptimes and other debuffs (stone giant if DK tank, and it's so easy to keep up 3 stagger stacks in vet non dlc dungeons). Then there is off balance uptimes. My Dk main tank run livewire + alkosh. Livewire is basically aoe off balance + aoe minor vulnerability to everything around you. This is a big increase to group dps, especially in stacked trash fights.

At the end of the day, difference of group dps between a group with a proper tank and a group with a fake tank is marginal. Main difference is that the dungeon run will be less messy with a proper tank.

The most common argument from fake tanks is that they "increase group dps by a lot / finish dungeon quicker". Which is true if both other dds are bad at dps. But if both other dds are competent, fake tanks will only make the dungeon run more messier and unpleasant especially if no one is taunting.

I generally don't care if someone is fake tanking as long as they maintain a taunt and don't die always. But failing that, people have every right to kick these fakers who cannot bother to spend time in dungeon finder, and waste the time of 3 other players that do wait.

who said i don't debuff? i use abilities that apply major fracture and breach, and i use crusher infused. I also give synergies.
You say that being full supp tank adds 15% dps to the group. If the dps does 30k dps then it will reach 35k dps. That's from 60k up to 70k, but me going from 15k dps to 30k dps it's better. Also, i very rarely find dps in my group that reaches even 30k altogether from all members combined. I tried using sets like olorime, spc, powerful assault, and the such. The difference of me being dps instead of supporting the group dps is very big, i rather take the wheels. There's only one dungeon in five where i encounter a good enough group where i could easily be an afk tank. And those hybrid role characters are designed for dungeons, in trials i bring a dedicated character.

LashanW

Sergykid wrote: »

who said i don't debuff? i use abilities that apply major fracture and breach, and i use crusher infused. I also give synergies.
You say that being full supp tank adds 15% dps to the group. If the dps does 30k dps then it will reach 35k dps. That's from 60k up to 70k, but me going from 15k dps to 30k dps it's better. Also, i very rarely find dps in my group that reaches even 30k altogether from all members combined. I tried using sets like olorime, spc, powerful assault, and the such. The difference of me being dps instead of supporting the group dps is very big, i rather take the wheels. There's only one dungeon in five where i encounter a good enough group where i could easily be an afk tank. And those hybrid role characters are designed for dungeons, in trials i bring a dedicated character.

You still don't stack adds. So it's less group dps there. Your way is ~10k more dps on single target. That is true. So your way is saving about 6-7 seconds at most in each boss fight (assumming boss health is 6m). But your way will waste more time in trash fights.

But, I understand your reasoning with pugs, the average dd is rather disappointing dps wise. My reasoning is assuming the dds are good. Which is not the case from my pugging experience recently. That is why I only tank with dds who are fellow guildies or friends now. I only pug as a dd myself as that is the only way I can guarantee group dps in not terrible. ZoS new taskbar icon notification for queue popping is really great

Btw, you sound like you know how to do pretty high dps as a dps character. Why don't you queue as dd then? Or join a dungeon guild and tank with them? There's plenty of active dungeon guilds out there with good dps players (atleast on EU server). I'm just saying my experience as an experienced tank who does not want to use the dungeon finder anymore, because I can easily find good dds without the uncertainty of dungeon finder.

deLioncourt

Varana wrote: »

I am currently not quite sure what I find more annoying:

Fake tanks, when I'm not a tank.
Bad DDs, when I'm a tank.
Wannabe speedrunners who don't care for the rest of the team.

Probably #3.

Im curious about your use of the phrase "wannabe speedrunners." If they actually successfully speedrun a dungeon ..are they still wannabes, or are they legit speedrunners?

Grandchamp1989

Varana wrote: »

I am currently not quite sure what I find more annoying:

Fake tanks, when I'm not a tank.
Bad DDs, when I'm a tank.
Wannabe speedrunners who don't care for the rest of the team.

Probably #3.

True, the speedrunners who pull 50 adds while the team wipe trying to keep up with the selfish one is... not fun.

Feizao

If DD's couldnt load points into the red CP tree then im sure real tanks would be in demand. same for healers. i suggest a change to the CP system itself to function like our attributes to uniformly distribute points. a true glass cannon will have no defense and an unkillable tank will have poor dps. Hybrid would be possible but not to those extremes

robo26

Sarannah wrote: »

Fake tanks/healers should get an accountwide ban from dungeon finder for a week, in my opinion. Really wish ZOS-staff would sometimes run dungeons, and inflict disciplinary actions against those cheaters.

Also, fake tanks do NOT increase the dps over a debuffing/buffing tank! Most of the time they are terrible DD's as well, despite what they themselves think. They also lower DPS by not holding aggro, basically disabling other DD's from doing dps/high dps. So even if your DPS meter shows you are the best dps'er as a fake tank, you are not!

Absolutely spot on, a real tank makes a huge difference in a dungeon. Really wish there was a way to stop the fake tank plague, but I guess it won't whilst the community accepts it

newtinmpls

deLioncourt wrote: »

Im curious about your use of the phrase "wannabe speedrunners." If they actually successfully speedrun a dungeon ..are they still wannabes, or are they legit speedrunners?

Depends on how you define successfully speedrunning.

IF the person is good enough/fast enough to load into a dungeon ALONE and speedrun it - then yes, successful.

If what they are actually doing is:
1-Load in with PUG group through dungeonfinder
2-Don't communicate, just run ahead
3-Aggro mobs for the rest of the group to kill
4-Solo kill bosses, thus disabling boss drops for the rest of the group
5-Continue on

They they are not legit, they are jerks.

Once a "speedrunner" gets to the first boss without "the rest of us" I initiate a vote to kick. Or someone does.

zvavi

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

A possibility is to let real tanks and real healers

Basic roles forced tutorials. With tons of xp for first completion. That's the only way. But it is "elitist".

zaria

newtinmpls wrote: »

deLioncourt wrote: »

Im curious about your use of the phrase "wannabe speedrunners." If they actually successfully speedrun a dungeon ..are they still wannabes, or are they legit speedrunners?

Depends on how you define successfully speedrunning.

IF the person is good enough/fast enough to load into a dungeon ALONE and speedrun it - then yes, successful.

If what they are actually doing is:
1-Load in with PUG group through dungeonfinder
2-Don't communicate, just run ahead
3-Aggro mobs for the rest of the group to kill
4-Solo kill bosses, thus disabling boss drops for the rest of the group
5-Continue on

They they are not legit, they are jerks.

Once a "speedrunner" gets to the first boss without "the rest of us" I initiate a vote to kick. Or someone does.

Yes that is the correct action,
Why even group, its not like anybody will share drops with you?
Now pulling all trash behind corners before bosses is the sensible way.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Joxer61 wrote: »

I would tank more......I love the role, was always a tank in other games...WOW, GW2, the lot...but....ESO DD's don't allow for a "new" tank to learn the dungeons and just want to run ahead and zerg everything. So, I said f it.....cant be ass'd if people aren't going to have any patience and allow someone to learn mechanics and such.
You want a speed run...grab some friends. Not everyone is in a hurry.

As a real tank, this is why I avoid the queue: DDs are so used to fake tanks they just run ahead. Look, I don't care if you can solo a vet dungeon, when you're in a group you wait. I don't have any stamina regen, so I'm not about to run through to keep up with you, and tanks get inferior loot anyway. So have the decency to queue as your proper role, and play as a group.

But also, as a real tank, there are very few pugs I've had to abandom because they just couldn't handle a dungeon, and most of those were because players absolutely refused to do the mechanics at all. Even after being told multiple times, and after 10 or so wipes.

Kurat

If you don't like fake tanks queue for vet instead norm. It's very rare to see fake tank in base vet and I've NEVER seen fakes in dlc vets, just bad ones sometimes.
I don't get why ppl queue for normals and then complain here. Lmao
Normals = overland basically, roles don't matter there.

the1andonlyskwex

Kurat wrote: »

If you don't like fake tanks queue for vet instead norm. It's very rare to see fake tank in base vet and I've NEVER seen fakes in dlc vets, just bad ones sometimes.
I don't get why ppl queue for normals and then complain here. Lmao
Normals = overland basically, roles don't matter there.

I see plenty of fake tanks in vet dungeons, and I mean obvious fakes (the most recent one I saw had 13k HP), not just people that are bad.

ZaroktheImmortal

I think too many see tanking as just someone to stand and draw enemies when really tanks are also about buffs for team, debuffs of enemies and also work on drawing enemy mobs into one neat pile for the DPS to clean up. If the dps are doing their job right you don't need another dps really. It's the same as healer not only do I heal I can buff the team increase their damage output debuff enemies set them off balance and keep the teams stamina and magika up. People often forget that support roles do more for them and you can clean up a dungeon pretty quickly if you work together properly as a team plus it's good practice for when you actually do the harder content.

ZaroktheImmortal

Varana wrote: »

I am currently not quite sure what I find more annoying:

Fake tanks, when I'm not a tank.
Bad DDs, when I'm a tank.
Wannabe speedrunners who don't care for the rest of the team.

Probably #3.

Ah yes, I've had far too many just run ahead of the time I've had times I spawned into a dungeon and they'd already be ahead of me and left entire mobs of enemies behind that I had to weave around just to get to where they were. I usually just stand back and clap at this point they want to do the entire dungeon themselves I let them then they usually whine that I'm not doing anything. I remember one running ahead who died then all the mobs that killed him ran back to the rest of him. I feel ESO is too full of the LEROY JENKINS types.

Banana

I do it all. By myself

Sporvan

I vote kick fake tanks out of principle. It's a gross sense of entitlement that some people have that they are better than others and don't need to wait their turn in the regular queue. That sort of behaviour should not be rewarded.

I have been flabbergasted though that some people actually willingly stick up for the fake tank at times [snip] sigh.

I'd rather vote kick and take double time time with a 3man comp to get through the dungeon than endure some CP 300 fake tank chancer with sub par dps leeching off everyone.

[edited for baiting]

abigfishy

I often queue as a tank (real) but when after the first few pulls I notice that I am doing about 40% of the damage with basically all tanking gear and abilities I start to worry about the fake DPS...

Athan1

I tried tanking but some players were very abusive and impatient. We gotta help each other out, not be selfish abominations.

Hapexamendios

As long as the person tanking can keep agro and has good survivability, I'm fine with it.

robo26

Kurat wrote: »

If you don't like fake tanks queue for vet instead norm. It's very rare to see fake tank in base vet and I've NEVER seen fakes in dlc vets, just bad ones sometimes.
I don't get why ppl queue for normals and then complain here. Lmao
Normals = overland basically, roles don't matter there.

I would agree with you that normals are easy. However, this is where I totally disagree with your argument. Normals are where thanks, healers and dd's learn mechanics. This doesn't/cannot happen if you have one person blazing a trail to the boss. This leaves the rest of the "team" to deal with trash while the dd on speed gets to the boss and kills it. (This happens so many times in delves it is silly - rush to the boss before other ppl get to it, such effort as the boss respawns quickly in delves!).

If you want to blaze through a dungeon, solo it! You will get bragging rights and leave dungeons alone for new players to learn the mechanics before moving on to vet dungeons.

robo26

abigfishy wrote: »

I often queue as a tank (real) but when after the first few pulls I notice that I am doing about 40% of the damage with basically all tanking gear and abilities I start to worry about the fake DPS...

In all fairness, when I take my healer through, I notice the same. I hit with heavy attacks to get magicka back between heals and often pull 40% or more of the damage!

robo26

Hapexamendios wrote: »

As long as the person tanking can keep agro and has good survivability, I'm fine with it.

The key to what you say is "If they can keep aggro" not many fake tanks can and leave the rest of the group having to run around like headless chickens firefighting all the time.