eKsDee wrote: »

The exact opposite is what actually happens, though. These players are only dealing 2k DPS, or aren't properly blocking and healing, because of how easy overland is. Overland never really requires you to do these things, outside of a few cases, and it actively harms the personal knowledge and skill growth of players who primarily do overland content.

A player who primarily quests and explores is never really taught how to properly deal damage, protect themselves from damage, manage their resources, or even how to properly build their character. The tutorial may cover a fraction of this -- Elsweyr actually does a decent job at showing players these things, to be fair -- but it pretty much goes in one ear and out the other, because they're immediately thrown into content that really doesn't require any of that.

So of course when this player starts delving into group content, and naturally underperforms because they're playing an Altmer heavy armour wearing stamDK DPS, who uses a sword and shield for their weapons, while only light attacking -- because overland has allowed them to -- of course other players are going to respond with harsh and honestly fair criticism. Group content has a certain expectation, that unfortunately doesn't line up at all with anything overland offers, and this player completely failed to meet that expectation.

There are two problems with this, I think.
First, the assumption that players will adapt and get better if you introduce harder content.
No they won't, they just won't play that stuff. Or team up so they can burn through it by just light-attacking anyway.

And second, that normal dungeons require more than an Altmer stamDK in heavy armour light-attacking with sword'n'shield.
No they don't. That is a perfectly viable character for learning harder mechanics in a normal dungeon. The only ones who make it seem not viable are the other players who don't have the patience to have their dungeon take a minute longer. Or the completely overtuned trial players who for some weird reason still zap through random normals without looking left and right.
Normal base-game dungeons are that content that is supposed to provide the next level of challenge after overland.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Deyirn wrote: »

ZOS should think about this and how many players they are excluding due to how easy they have made the game, and also how their revenue will get a boost when those players come back (if they were given a reason). What's more the news that ESO now has a Hardcore mode will spread everywhere on the internet and even new players will be interested to start playing.

On the contrary, they're making more revenue from casual players, and that's why they have been increasingly catering to them. Case in point, the new antiquity system.

This is true and those free play days they had last month, for sure that gained them a ton more casual players. Then free ESO+ for a week likely resulted in more paid subs. That’s the nature of the business though. You have to grow the base to have a successful game.

Knightpanther wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. You know, something they can actually engage with instead of just being something you click a mouse button on.

I think your overlooking the fact that most of us are sitting on 1200+ CP, full Gold gear, maxed skills/abilitys inc guild/alliance war skills/passives, try it as a new person with starting gear and only a few skills.

Be Safe

Not overlooking it at all. FYI, I already did that:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6764233#Comment_6764233

Theirs no plans to make the overland harder. I imagine not even a discussion at zos. They said they are going to make some changes to the cp system, however thats an internal idea being tested and may not even see the light of day on live. Though it could possibly make content harder, not just overland.

That was an interesting video, OP. I think it's true that difficulty should be challenging rather than punishing.

However, the video doesn't cover the fact that engaging content doesn't have to be difficult.

I do quests to chill and enjoy the story. If I'm on my nightblade main, I mostly just cloak through mobs because they are not an interesting aspect of questing.

I think as others have said, the skill gap is what makes overland easy for skilled players. If you didn't have animation cancelling and didn't have to memorize a notation, you would play like many casual players do: attack a mob, see how it reacts and then counter-act with their skills, rather than completely ignoring what the mob is doing and melting it.

And I think people underestimate the mechanic progression in dungeons. They tend to put DLCs in a separate category, but if you started doing all the zone 1 dungeons (FG I, SC I and BC I) and then went up the zones, and then went through the II dungeons in the same order and then got the DLCs, you'll see there is a clear progression in difficulty.

But it feels like people are either doing FG I or a DLC, so they miss all that learning curve in the middle. I'm not sure how to fix that without removing some of the freedom ESO brings, because most people don't start doing dungeons at level 10, so by the time they get around to it, they can get to any of the dungeons and don't know to do them in order. If they are looking up a build, they know they need to go to dungeon X for their gear set and to Scalecaller for Zaan (good luck!).

Another thing that prevents new players from learning gameplay mechanics is that, if they start running dungeons, if they pug with a high-level player who just wants to finish their daily random ASAP, they will not learn any mechanics in the dungeon, nor will they improve their capacity to block, interrupt or step out of red that's being telegraphed. I learned a lot in the old vet dungeons when we died over and over again to a boss until you got the muscle memory to react to the mechanics in time. Now in normal dungeons, you hardly need to do that. Just sit through it and be healed. And then get your butt handed to you in vet.

Anyway, that's my dungeon ramble.

But as others have pointed out, there are issues with your proposal: 1. If you set a character to "Hardcore" and you are the one being nerfed, unless all "Hardcore" players are in the same shard, you run the risk of a non-Hardcore player just steamrolling over the mobs you are struggling with.
2. If "Hardcore" makes the mobs harder, you again need to have a separate instance so you don't negatively affect the people who are NOT playing hardcore.

So this could only work in places that are instanced, like some of the Carglorn delves and daily instances, not in the actual open world.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personally, I find that most of the people who want hard overland content are selfish
<snip>
They
<snip>
want to steal away the content meant for casuals and newbies.

Glurin wrote: »

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. .

Speaking as someone who has minimal experience with MMOs, and is "here" for "Morrowind with friends" (playing since a month post PC launch) and does NOT BiS, nor super-twich-battle, there are places in overland content that I cannot do alone and that threaten and kill me plenty. Starting with Bittergreen the Guar (is that his name - that crazy, dangerous mofo).

Most recently trying to run the thieves and assassins guild quests on a character who is NOT a nightblade.

Just because it's super easy for you, doesn't mean it's super easy for everyone

And since you inherently claim you aren't a "casual" or a "newbie" then please stop the disingenuous "help" which is not wanted.

newtinmpls wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personally, I find that most of the people who want hard overland content are selfish
<snip>
They
<snip>
want to steal away the content meant for casuals and newbies.

Glurin wrote: »

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. .

Speaking as someone who has minimal experience with MMOs, and is "here" for "Morrowind with friends" (playing since a month post PC launch) and does NOT BiS, nor super-twich-battle, there are places in overland content that I cannot do alone and that threaten and kill me plenty. Starting with Bittergreen the Guar (is that his name - that crazy, dangerous mofo).

Most recently trying to run the thieves and assassins guild quests on a character who is NOT a nightblade.

Just because it's super easy for you, doesn't mean it's super easy for everyone

And since you inherently claim you aren't a "casual" or a "newbie" then please stop the disingenuous "help" which is not wanted.

Bittergreen the Wild is a world boss. He's supposed to be enough of a threat that you can't solo him without being high level and well equipped. That's not the sort of danger I'm talking about. In fact I think world bosses themselves are fine right where they are.