When Difficult Is Fun - Challenging vs. Punishing Games

Deyirn

PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO BEFORE YOU READ THE REST AND REPLY
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs
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PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO BEFORE YOU READ THE REST AND REPLY

When I first tried the Beta of ESO back in 2014, I got excited at the prospect of playing the game, because there was a certain amount of challenge in even fighting the first mobs you see outside of where you spawn into the world for the first time.

When I bought ESO in 2015 after the switch from subscription to B2P, I was also having fun playing and being challenged by the regular mobs in the world. I would act foolishly and attack a group of mobs without assessing their power, or I would incidentally attract another mob and I would get killed. I tried fighting off a Dark Anchor all by myself and on the second wave the mobs killed me. That's what was fun for me about the game - the challenge in the world where you have to be careful of what you do and use the abilities you were given to their fullest extend to beat the challenge presented.

When I took a break and came back to play in 2018, I was greeted by a completely different game - everywhere I went, every mob I fought was leagues below me. I was near immortal - I had to intentionally attract too many mobs for my own good in order to even create a risk of being killed. That's not fun at all. What is the point of having enemies that present zero challenge and what is the point of fighting them if I can't even complete one of my rotations on a single mob before it dies?

What I mean to say is I like the leveling aspect in MMORPGs - where I explore the world, get quests from NPCs, learn the lore and get immersed into this world and excited to face its challenges. Except the current ESO has zero challenges in the overworld. I can crate a brand new character on a brand new account with zero CP to invest or empower me passively and I will still face no challenge while questing.

I don't know what was the reason that lead to this drastic drop in the game's difficulty, but it has completely ruined the experience for me and the game is outright unplayable. I tried playing on a few occasions, but after killing 1-2 mobs, I just remember why I quit playing the last time and uninstall the game and all those hours wasted downloading were for nothing. I've seen a lot of other threads about people discussing the difficulty of the current game and there are people on both sides - one say that the game is too easy and boring and the other say it's just fine as it is.

I wanted to post this video to shed some light on this matter, because I think many people who believe the difficulty is fine as it is most likely have some subconscious fear that if the difficulty is increased, the game will become as described in the video - punishing, or in other words unplayable. I've also seen other people suggesting the inclusion of a Hardcore mode and I want to elaborate on that once more.

Since the inclusion of level scaling a few years back, came the opportunity for low level players to play side-by-side with high level players, which is good, it also allowed for people to go and play in whatever zone they want without worrying that the mobs there will be way too strong for them. I think that the level scaling is still not properly utilized. A better utilization would be to have Hardcore more - where upon character creation you can check a box if you want your character to be Hardcore, which means that either their stats will be lowered by a certain percentage (30-50%.. just an example) or the stats of the enemies they fight will be increased by a similar value... maybe even removal of costumes and requiring people to use Sneak again... I believe that the level scaling system will be perfect for this, because it will allow the players who feel that the overworld leveling experience is not challenging enough to get the excitement from the challenge back without anyone who feels the difficulty is fine as it is being affected in any ways whatsoever.

Without making this post extremely long, I want to say that I think this is crucial to the game. I for one quit because of this - I found myself fighting mobs and doing quests without even thinking - just mindlessly mashing 1, 2, 3 and the mobs would die and I would be at full health. At the end before I quit I even spent more time trying to climb on hard to reach places rather than playing the game, because I found it more fun - that was the only challenging thing I could see in the game, but even that became boring and I just quit. I think there are other players like me who are holding off on playing again, because they don't find any enjoyment in how easy the game is and it's safe to say that it will be better for ZOS/Bethesda if those players are given an incentive to come back, a.k.a. something like a Hardcore mode. I don't even care about the story, there are many starting zones which I haven't played and I don't even have the desire to play them due to how easy and boring the content is. I also have no interest to play anymore or purchase anymore content for the game, but if I was given the reason to WANT to come back and play for as much as I have time each day, I would also run out of content will eventually want to purchase more.

ZOS should think about this and how many players they are excluding due to how easy they have made the game, and also how their revenue will get a boost when those players come back (if they were given a reason). What's more the news that ESO now has a Hardcore mode will spread everywhere on the internet and even new players will be interested to start playing.

This may look like a rant, but it's more of my message to ZOS (if they even read this) and to players on both camps to see that it's possible for each of them to play and enjoy the game together, if ZOS ever decides that this is a viable feature and enough players ask for it. The game already has enough content and I think they can release some small patch that adds this into the game without affecting the development of any future content.

Thanks if you had the patience to read this far, I will gladly read whatever replies there are and discuss them if I have an opinion on them.

MartiniDaniels

Hi!
Many on this forum will fully agree with you and many will fully disagree. We just had several discussions on the same matter, so I am not sure if anybody has mental power to continue
I highly recommend adding word "Optional" to first line of original post, because there are a lot % of players (~50%) who are ok with easy overland because they use it to farm or to walk around and listen to quests.

Still, it is nice to see another well detailed post about this issue, and maybe ZOS will finally understand that locking 40-50% of game content from substantial part of population is not a clever move.

I personally didn't pre-ordered Greymoor because I don't see much worth to buy another zone, which I won't be able to play other then for 1 trial instance. Maybe I buy it later when it will be discounted, but certainly not now.

Rave the Histborn

Great, another thread with the same topic. I wonder if this one will be any different 🙄🙄🙄

If you want a punishing extremly difficult game then go buy one, tons of them exist. This isn't a single player game and adding difficulty modes on noninstanced combat will not work.

I really do think the players that think the "old" ESO pre one Tamriel have a case of false memory. It's always the same story, I played in beta, left and have a significant play gap, they return and feel like the game is easier when the difficulty has maintained.

ZOS also isn't excluding people, it's the opposite. They keep the game open to as many players as possible and no one is going to suddenly join ESO for a hardcore mode that wasn't already interested in the TES series. Sure, you'd get a tiny fraction of players back but is that potential tiny fraction enough to make it worth completely revamping overland content and changing it completely? Most likely not.

I want to point out one part in the video. "For something to be enjoyably difficult rather than punishing it has to allow the player an outlet to approach problems in new ways." Will we get new ways to approach things and defeat them? Will there be new mechanics involved with enemies that we can use to defeat them or are we just going to get things with more HP because longer doesn't = harder

Knightpanther

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Luckylancer

These day I play Enderal (huge skyrim mod). What I do is mostly exploring and quests. I never do these on ESO. Actually I hate these at ESO.

In Enderal with master diffuculty I am constantly engaged in combat. I have to think for solutions. When I go to low level zone I just activate cheats and kill easy mobs that way.

I use cheats to clean up easy mobs and I dont use any cheats in hard content. Why? Because easy stuff is just a chore. All ESO overland content is chore. I have to endure boredom untill enemies run out of HP. This is why I never quest and explore in ESO.

I wont wear low level items with 0 CP idiot while a new player next to me kills mobs faster than me. It will make feel like idiot. I occasional log in and do some non-cp PvP.

I want to add I hate vMA too. It is just a torture. Level of difficulty I like is a bit harder than vet base game dungeons.

Sharee

Oh Doshia, how we miss thee...

The problem i see with hardcore mode is that it would have to be a separate server. Otherwise you are mixing hardcore and normal players which is impossible because they are fighting the same mob:

1, you can't make the mob harder for the hardcore player, because then it would be harder for everyone.
2, you can't make the hardcore player weaker because "LF tank veteran dungeons! Hi! Oh, you're hardcore? ... LF tank veteran dungeons!"

And creating a separate hardcore server splits the playerbase, which isn't ideal either. But, ESO population seems large enough so... maybe. I certainly would give it a try.

Sharee

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Great, another thread witb the same topic. I wonder if this one will be any different 🙄🙄🙄

If you want a punishing extremly difficult game then go buy one, tons of them exist.

Easy to tell who didn't watch the video, isn't it.

Scratch that. But i think the video made it pretty clear that the OP does NOT want "punishingly difficult".

Sharee

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Sure! ESO as it was on release...

Everest_Lionheart

For the OP what made you leave ESO the first time? If you’ve already left a game for some reason or another than coming back could trigger that all over again. If you already found things easy or we’re bored with content than a few years in between doesn’t necessarily change how you feel about the game.

As someone who plays games and moves on a lot I usually judge the quality of a game by how many hours of engaging content, but for sure when I am done with the game than I am done with it. Like I put 400 hours into FO4 but I’m done with it. 150 into AC Odyssey and I’m done with that too. I’m at 400 here in ESO and feel like I am just getting started. The difficulty doesn’t even bother me here. I look at most of it as easy exp and free gold much in the same mold if nearly every other RPG I played growing up grinding the same zone over and over again to level up to the point where I could 1 shot my way to the final boss. That was the point in those games to get as powerful as you could. ESO isn’t much different but the super power comes a bit too fast.

There is more than enough engaging content to keep you occupied otherwise though, unless you are here for the fights alone than you’ve basically got PvP against other live humans. That’s most games in general these days though. The only challenge is in PVP because in all the games I have played with difficulty sliders once you get used to the mechanics the AI becomes predictable and easy enough to beat no matter how many HP or DMG you give it.

cheemers

Sharee wrote: »

Oh Doshia, how we miss thee...

The problem i see with hardcore mode is that it would have to be a separate server. Otherwise you are mixing hardcore and normal players which is impossible because they are fighting the same mob:

1, you can't make the mob harder for the hardcore player, because then it would be harder for everyone.
2, you can't make the hardcore player weaker because "LF tank veteran dungeons! Hi! Oh, you're hardcore? ... LF tank veteran dungeons!"

And creating a separate hardcore server splits the playerbase, which isn't ideal either. But, ESO population seems large enough so... maybe. I certainly would give it a try.

The hardcore mode just needs to be a debuff on players rather than a buff on mobs. Just as there is a " Battle Spirit" for PvP, have a "Challenge Spirit" as an opt-in for overland. It could even be a 2-hour scroll or something.

Something like -50% wep/spell DMG, -50% max stat, -50% recovery and -50% armour. Then have some interesting incentive to play this way, e.g. higher chance of getting purple set pieces in chests, increased gold from enemies, increased drop chance from mobs etc and there you go - retention and interest solved.

Rave the Histborn

Luckylancer wrote: »

These day I play Enderal (huge skyrim mod). What I do is mostly exploring and quests. I never do these on ESO. Actually I hate these at ESO.

In Enderal with master diffuculty I am constantly engaged in combat. I have to think for solutions. When I go to low level zone I just activate cheats and kill easy mobs that way.

I use cheats to clean up easy mobs and I dont use any cheats in hard content. Why? Because easy stuff is just a chore. All ESO overland content is chore. I have to endure boredom untill enemies run out of HP. This is why I never quest and explore in ESO.

I wont wear low level items with 0 CP idiot while a new player next to me kills mobs faster than me. It will make feel like idiot. I occasional log in and do some non-cp PvP.

I want to add I hate vMA too. It is just a torture. Level of difficulty I like is a bit harder than vet base game dungeons.

I'm confused so you don't like easy content and you use cheats to clear them but you don't seem to enjoy harder content and you call it torture.

Knightpanther

Sharee wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Sure! ESO as it was on release...

LOL no it wasn't, i was here since day one.

I'm talking Everquest style hard mode.

What i am getting at is that the majority of folks do not want hard mode overland and developers want quantity over quality, that's what pays the bills.

Sure lots of folks can come on here wanting to boost their credibility by saying 'god this is boringly easy' but how many actually played a hardcore MMO?
Having spent my early years of gaming in Everquest from when it started to flagging SSRA and then Time i really doubt the current player base would want to negotiate that sort of difficulty level, i for one would not go through that again.

A successful MMO has balance, overland content should be relaxing with the odd challenge thrown in (go solo public dungeons) but you get your difficulty from dungeon or PvP experience, in my opinion ESO does this very well.

I still play Everquest after 20+ years but i gets a bit stale sitting in one place pulling mobs to gain minor increases in exp and AA because you get seriously *** in most zones if your not careful.
Is this the sort of experience the OP wants? because that's fine if your up for a challenge but after a hard days work i prefer to relax.

Try questing with limited time when it takes 2 hours to get to a mob let alone kill it.

ESO whilst it has its faults (im PVP so you understand what i mean) its the best game ive ever played for freedom of choice.

Be Safe

Noxavian

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

World Of Warcraft's overland is quite tough until you get high level gear. Same for FFXIV.


I would argue those two being ESO's direct competitors says something then?

knightblaster

Sharee wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Sure! ESO as it was on release...

Sounds like a good case for an "ESO Classic" server, with Craglorn, old style advancement and the works.

Rave the Histborn

Sharee wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Great, another thread witb the same topic. I wonder if this one will be any different 🙄🙄🙄

If you want a punishing extremly difficult game then go buy one, tons of them exist.

Easy to tell who didn't watch the video, isn't it.

Scratch that. But i think the video made it pretty clear that the OP does NOT want "punishingly difficult".

No, he just wants fights in overland to take longer

Knightpanther

Noxavian wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

World Of Warcraft's overland is quite tough until you get high level gear. Same for FFXIV.


I would argue those two being ESO's direct competitors says something then?

I still sadly play WOW occasionally (its like saying you play piano in a *** house), Classic is sometimes tough i will give you that but even in starting gear mobs in the normal WOW version virtually gather around you and commit suicide.

Be Safe

TropicsDelight

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

EQ1 did. Granted it was the first game of it's (and ESO's) kind. EQ1 had an open world where players could fight at any level of difficulty/content they desired. There were classes that flat out barely could kill a green mob quite a few levels below them (warriors, rogues, any non-pet class who could not heal, kite, or root and nuke). When you got agro from a mob you could not kill you were agro unless you zoned out, so that was a long run, not to mention most classes did not have SOW and you could not sprint so you often got caught and killed. And then there was the exp loss death penalty and naked corpse recovery from your bind point.

EQ1 also made mob movement in the open world far more elaborate. Spawns were not tethered to a single location in packs like most are in ESO. They wandered, and as such fighting in the open world you could get adds far easier and had to be more aware of your surroundings and what the mobs around you were doing. This was especially important as most people in EQ1 fought mobs about as tough as they could handle for the exp benefits of doing so and as such a second mob often meant a required escape or death.

I do not think ESO should be 100% like EQ1, but I think both games have some pieces they do better than the other and a hybrid of the two systems would be preferable. I would like to see more wandering for open world mobs. I would like to see more powerful mobs interspersed into a lot of the areas/zones that wander large areas so that players need to keep their eyes out for them, and larger groups of more powerful players can actually actively look for them and kill them when they are found.

Sharee

Knightpanther wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Sure! ESO as it was on release...

LOL no it wasn't, i was here since day one.

I'm talking Everquest style hard mode.

I don't think anyone here is asking for everquest-style hard mode tho.

Linaleah

Sharee wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Great, another thread witb the same topic. I wonder if this one will be any different 🙄🙄🙄

If you want a punishing extremly difficult game then go buy one, tons of them exist.

Easy to tell who didn't watch the video, isn't it.

Scratch that. But i think the video made it pretty clear that the OP does NOT want "punishingly difficult".

the problem with punishingly difficult is that its very relative. individual. what's brain dead easy for one person could be just right for another and punishingly difficult for a third. the same exact difficulty. that's why most single player games have a minimum of 3 difficulties to chose from and many give you twice or 3 times as many difficulty options.

I do think that having optional veteran zones or at least quest instances could be a good idea.

key words being

OPTIONAL
and
INSTANCED (no I don't mean 4 man dungeons by that, I mean we already have zone sharding - its only a small step to the side - to make at least one of those shards veteran and allow people to pick the shards they play in - manualy. swtor is designed on hero engine as well. not the same exact version as ESO, but still - hero engine. and that's kinda how swtor does it (though for zones its pvp vs pve shards, but the idea is similar)

anyways, implementation aside, mainly I'm just pointing out that everyone has their own threshold of where challenging becomes punishing and when normal becomes too easy. it can be rough enough to balance in single player games. balancing it in MMO's... especially ESo with its obsenely gigantic power creep and skill gap thanks to the style of combat we have here... OOF.

Linaleah

Noxavian wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

World Of Warcraft's overland is quite tough until you get high level gear. Same for FFXIV.


I would argue those two being ESO's direct competitors says something then?

no idea about final fantasy as i got bored of it too quickly to get anywhere far, but as far as WoW goes - its only tough if you don't understand how to play it, or play one of the more newbie unfriendly classes. otherwise - its very. VERY. easy. even before you gear up. in fact, I have to laugh whenever people bring up wow as example of challenge. the whole reason WoW became as popular as it did, was because in a sea of punishing MMO's that required that you group up to do just about anything, they were the first one to offer primarily solo and EASY casual playing experience.

Rave the Histborn

Linaleah wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

World Of Warcraft's overland is quite tough until you get high level gear. Same for FFXIV.


I would argue those two being ESO's direct competitors says something then?

no idea about final fantasy as i got bored of it too quickly to get anywhere far, but as far as WoW goes - its only tough if you don't understand how to play it, or play one of the more newbie unfriendly classes. otherwise - its very. VERY. easy. even before you gear up. in fact, I have to laugh whenever people bring up wow as example of challenge. the whole reason WoW became as popular as it did, was because in a sea of punishing MMO's that required that you group up to do just about anything, they were the first one to offer primarily solo and EASY casual playing experience.

Pretty much this, WoW was only hard if you didn't know what you were doing

peacenote

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

I want to point out one part in the video. "For something to be enjoyably difficult rather than punishing it has to allow the player an outlet to approach problems in new ways." Will we get new ways to approach things and defeat them? Will there be new mechanics involved with enemies that we can use to defeat them or are we just going to get things with more HP because longer doesn't = harder

This actually jumped out at me, too. I think the video was interesting to watch but imo doesn't actually apply to the challenge we have in ESO wrt overland. People asking for difficulty sliders and whatnot might not be as happy as they think they will be, because at its core the content will still have its same attacks, configuration, etc., that it has now.

The thing with ESO is that there is difficult content, easy content, and content in between. HOWEVER it's not all in overland. Overland isn't its own game. That difficult content is now in dungeons and trials. Back when ESO started, working through overland and the main story was the majority of the content, before more options (CP system, better sets, etc.) were introduced into the game to make our characters more powerful and give them development. It's not that overland was made easier so much as it's more new content was added to be a challenge for players that have their CP and BIS gear, as opposed to going back and re-doing all of the content those players already had done to make it a challenge. And the ramp to reach that end game level so you can jump into raids can be quick if you know what you're doing.

Additionally the issue is that the floor and ceiling for DPS roles is so high (added somewhere in there is the scaling with CP and whatnot). Throw on some purples as a DPS and overland is easy, but going through overland by yourself on a tank is painful. Going through overland on, say, a hybrid tank with some DPS abilities (or a solo build) feels more like overland used to be.

I would not mind a small buff to overland mobs across the board so story villains don't fall over after two hits when I'm working through a new area on my main, but the thing to realize about ESO is that there are a LOT of people who are here for the story and it has kind of evolved so that it's almost impossible to fail to when questing, because in reality if you're questing, you're probably there for the story, not to challenge your character. There are so many requests for dungeon story modes even though we have a normal dungeon mode that in most cases is not very difficult. And that's because people want to go through the story and feel engaged but not have to be rushed or frustrated or hit roadblocks to knowing what's going to happen. (By the way I have concerns about a story mode, since I worry people then won't run normals, or be toxic to folks who go through the story quest in regular dungeon mode, but my point is the requests are out there.)

Also we're now talking about a game that has six years of story content to work through if you're a new player. The reality is that ZOS probably doesn't want it to take 25 years for folks to struggle through it, because they need their community to want to buy new content, but in many cases WE don't really want it to take 25 years either. I can say this after leveling about eight alts. I go through the stories and grab my skill points if I need them or to have a relaxing time, but if the stories were extremely difficult to solo and mastering them took hours to work through I would be incredibly frustrated because... it's content I've done already. It's fun to do again, but if I want a challenge and I'm not doing current, real end-game content (like vet trials) I will do things like try to solo a world boss or duo a dungeon with a friend.

I am not strongly against an option if people really wanted it, so that overland would "feel harder" but I'm not sure it will be as wonderful as people are envisioning or get much use. It would need to be a toggle (maybe a mundus stone?) as opposed to locked in on character creation so that folks could easily switch back to group play and content as needed. And frankly I'm not sure why this is needed when folks could go out and wear white gear, easily crafted, with the wrong traits and probably have the same experience.

Actually, I think I'm on to something here. Instead of having them re-work the divines trait, they should create a corrupted mundus that gives you a debuff. People could experiment with levels of difficulty by adding or removing pieces with divines traits.

Anyway, my point is a blanket slight increase to overland would be fine in my book, and if people want to gimp their characters as they run around the world, go ahead, but I don't think there's a way to make overland more difficult universally that would also cause it to be addicting and satisfying in the way the video is describing because it wouldn't introduce new options for defeating the enemies. It would just be a more punishing overland, I think, and only satisfy a niche number of players who don't want to do end game and specifically want to experience the open world at an extremely slow pace. Since it's not really in ZOS's best interest for new players to work through old content that slowly, we're unlikely to ever see it come out as an option.

I think it might be better to add some roaming difficult world bosses, roaming mobs, or bolster those mobs that fall from the sky, so that the story mode quests are still accessible but there is scary overland content you might encounter but can avoid if you're trying to go through it quickly. I know due to the fund-raising event they were a bit over-farmed and therefore now some folks are just "over it", but I really liked how ZOS handled the dragons in Elsweyr as a way to implement a decent overland challenge.

zvavi

I felt like it's gonna be extra credits video. But ye, eso difficulty curve is non existent, the jump between overland and normal, normal to vet, then from vet to vet dlc, are all horribly made.

And most of all, even difficult games are punishing games when the server is trolling you. So ye. And since it doesn't seem like they gonna give it as much support, and it doesn't hurt easy content because even if your skills don't fire you can't fail anything (or if a mechanic is ignored/bugs out you will still live), I am actually against adding more difficulty.

I am for fixing the f***ing game. We can talk about making the game more fun later. (The corrupted mundus was a nice idea)

Bryath

peacenote wrote: »

Anyway, my point is a blanket slight increase to overland would be fine in my book, and if people want to gimp their characters as they run around the world, go ahead, but I don't think there's a way to make overland more difficult universally that would also cause it to be addicting and satisfying in the way the video is describing because it wouldn't introduce new options for defeating the enemies. It would just be a more punishing overland, I think, and only satisfy a niche number of players who don't want to do end game and specifically want to experience the open world at an extremely slow pace. Since it's not really in ZOS's best interest for new players to work through old content that slowly, we're unlikely to ever see it come out as an option.

I think it might be better to add some roaming difficult world bosses, roaming mobs, or bolster those mobs that fall from the sky, so that the story mode quests are still accessible but there is scary overland content you might encounter but can avoid if you're trying to go through it quickly. I know due to the fund-raising event they were a bit over-farmed and therefore now some folks are just "over it", but I really liked how ZOS handled the dragons in Elsweyr as a way to implement a decent overland challenge.

Great post, peacenote. I'm pretty sure they could blanket increase mob HP and damage by 10-20% without making the quests/delves feel like a slog, and even the light attack spammers would be ok (and perhaps have some incentive to 'L2P'). Add to that some roaming/random encounters with difficulty ranging from 'public dungeon boss' to 'world boss' (that people can just run past if they wish) and overland just might be interesting enough for me to play again.

I also feel that they should add a small chance of a random motif page or blue+ furnishing plan from 'named' mobs and/or quest rewards. Give people some incentive to play the game rather than just do a bunch of daily quests.

Knightpanther

TropicsDelight wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

EQ1 did. Granted it was the first game of it's (and ESO's) kind. EQ1 had an open world where players could fight at any level of difficulty/content they desired. There were classes that flat out barely could kill a green mob quite a few levels below them (warriors, rogues, any non-pet class who could not heal, kite, or root and nuke). When you got agro from a mob you could not kill you were agro unless you zoned out, so that was a long run, not to mention most classes did not have SOW and you could not sprint so you often got caught and killed. And then there was the exp loss death penalty and naked corpse recovery from your bind point.

EQ1 also made mob movement in the open world far more elaborate. Spawns were not tethered to a single location in packs like most are in ESO. They wandered, and as such fighting in the open world you could get adds far easier and had to be more aware of your surroundings and what the mobs around you were doing. This was especially important as most people in EQ1 fought mobs about as tough as they could handle for the exp benefits of doing so and as such a second mob often meant a required escape or death.

I do not think ESO should be 100% like EQ1, but I think both games have some pieces they do better than the other and a hybrid of the two systems would be preferable. I would like to see more wandering for open world mobs. I would like to see more powerful mobs interspersed into a lot of the areas/zones that wander large areas so that players need to keep their eyes out for them, and larger groups of more powerful players can actually actively look for them and kill them when they are found.

Yep i could see your idea on the harder mobs something like EQ2 has in each zone, my only concern is that they would end up camped like boss mobs in delves unless they did not drop anything special, in which case im not sure of their worth.

maybe beefed up Ogres

Be Safe

newtinmpls

Sharee wrote: »

i think the video made it pretty clear that the OP does NOT want "punishingly difficult".

In the same way that not everyone has trouble with the same kinds of things, there are plenty of people who look at OPs preference and don't see it as "challenging" but rather as "too much for me, thanks very much".

spartaxoxo

[snip]

Making tutorial content (and that is what overland content essentially is) difficult is extremely punishing to casuals and newbies. And it's the absolute worst way to sustain a game.

If you want harder content, [snip] Learn to PVP. Learn to Vet Trial. Learn to play DLC dungeons so well that you can skin them. Almost all of the content in this game is catered to people who enjoy challenge, you don't need the little that isn't too.

[Edited to remove Baiting and Rude Comments]

Glurin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. You know, something they can actually engage with instead of just being something you click a mouse button on.

Kiralyn2000

Linaleah wrote: »

the problem with punishingly difficult is that its very relative. individual. what's brain dead easy for one person could be just right for another and punishingly difficult for a third. the same exact difficulty.

Yep.

peacenote wrote: »

This actually jumped out at me, too. I think the video was interesting to watch but imo doesn't actually apply to the challenge we have in ESO wrt overland. People asking for difficulty sliders and whatnot might not be as happy as they think they will be, because at its core the content will still have its same attacks, configuration, etc., that it has now.

This. The people who do group content, or vet content, or who solo dungeons - they're already doing content with Moar HP and Moar Damage, but it also has Moar Mechanics! Just increasing the HP & damage (or reducing the player's Damage and Defense) won't add any challenge because it'll still be the same mob spawn patterns and the same basic gameplay. Just longer. You'd need to re-do the zones and the mobs in them to actually increase the challenge.

Casterial

Game is routed toward casuals now, even PVP is headed that direction. They make the money, and we'll laugh. When Elder Scrolls VI releases Elder Scrolls Online community will dip so bad because they catered toward those players who are just waiting for ES6, they didn't cater toward the MMO playerbase.

Luckylancer

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

These day I play Enderal (huge skyrim mod). What I do is mostly exploring and quests. I never do these on ESO. Actually I hate these at ESO.

In Enderal with master diffuculty I am constantly engaged in combat. I have to think for solutions. When I go to low level zone I just activate cheats and kill easy mobs that way.

I use cheats to clean up easy mobs and I dont use any cheats in hard content. Why? Because easy stuff is just a chore. All ESO overland content is chore. I have to endure boredom untill enemies run out of HP. This is why I never quest and explore in ESO.

I wont wear low level items with 0 CP idiot while a new player next to me kills mobs faster than me. It will make feel like idiot. I occasional log in and do some non-cp PvP.

I want to add I hate vMA too. It is just a torture. Level of difficulty I like is a bit harder than vet base game dungeons.

I'm confused so you don't like easy content and you use cheats to clear them but you don't seem to enjoy harder content and you call it torture.

Too easy is too easy, too hard is too hard. What I like is something between vet base game dungeons and vet dlc dungeons. This will change depending on player. Overland content is as hard as a normal dungeon.