When Difficult Is Fun - Challenging vs. Punishing Games

barney2525

Yet another one of these posts. I liked the part about 'without making this post extremely long'. That was funny.

Why do so many people actually believe that Their view is the one shared by ALL others? It's Not. Everything you said is Your personal view. It's Your personal preference. And yet for some reason you really believe that this game must change to what you, and you only, prefer.

Here's the Facts. No game, Not this one and not any other, is customized to a specific person and what They prefer. A game is created and developed and then placed out for public use AS IS. If you like it - Fine. If you don't like it - Fine. You are welcome to do something else. It's a free world.

I like the way it is. My view is that overland is supposed to be a Nuisance and Not a Challenge. The challenges should be the bigger, more important quests and bosses etc. IMHO overland is the flavor. It is Not the main emphasis of the game. And I know this is just my opinion. And the devs could change the game in such a way that I would not enjoy it anymore. At which point I might post something, I might not. If it was bad enough for me to decide the game was not worth playing, I would Not post anything. I would move on.

What I would Not do is insist that the Devs change the game to exactly what I want it to be.

IMHO

Fingolfinn01

Great post. Thats why single player rpg are in some ways better than mmorpg. The quest stories are just better with impending doom, rather than just 1 or 2 shoot the last boss. Quests usually are remembered for the tough fights. This seems lost on the developers or just to difficult to implement. Having a difficult instance for quests will also solve another problem of other players killing the boss who are on the same quest line.

Arunei

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

Fingolfinn01

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

I would also say VMA go there if you want a tough fight. But it has no juice, its just a grind. Stories however have meaning, and what better way to end them with a well punctuated fight.

Oliviander

I never did that,
but questing without armor should be a valid option

Daemons_Bane

Glurin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personally, I find that most of the people who want hard overland content are selfish scrubs. They don't want to put in any effort or teamwork to engage in the tons of challenging content we do have, and instead want to steal away the content meant for casuals and newbies.

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. You know, something they can actually engage with instead of just being something you click a mouse button on.

Who says that everyone wants it more challenging.? I engage in the game my way, and I enjoy it like that ty.. I don't mind the move as they are.. So don't make choives/demands/wishes for me

andreasv

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

So you don't see the connection between players that face roll overland content and then go into a group dungeon and expect to do the same there?

Maybe the game should have presented them with a challenge so they have to use available skills to survive instead of going through a 2 second boss fight again and again.

Glurin

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

First of all, a lot of those whiners are exaggerating and would (and quite often do) make the same claim regardless of how much DPS people are actually putting out.

Second, aside from world bosses, you can still bulldoze overland with 2k DPS.

Everest_Lionheart

Glurin wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

First of all, a lot of those whiners are exaggerating and would (and quite often do) make the same claim regardless of how much DPS people are actually putting out.

Second, aside from world bosses, you can still bulldoze overland with 2k DPS.

I wouldn’t say you “bulldoze” it with 2K DPS but at that point nothing is really killing you. You will win most of your fights easily. Delve bosses and a few overland elites take some work though.

I think people that want harder overland want it to be more like that. The problem is their 40K DPS is just way too OP for anything overland has to offer. World bosses included.

Glurin

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

First of all, a lot of those whiners are exaggerating and would (and quite often do) make the same claim regardless of how much DPS people are actually putting out.

Second, aside from world bosses, you can still bulldoze overland with 2k DPS.

I wouldn’t say you “bulldoze” it with 2K DPS but at that point nothing is really killing you. You will win most of your fights easily. Delve bosses and a few overland elites take some work though.

I think people that want harder overland want it to be more like that. The problem is their 40K DPS is just way too OP for anything overland has to offer. World bosses included.

Kinda like that, yeah. It's not so much about making things difficult as it is just making things have a presence. I certainly wouldn't say overland should be balanced around 40k DPS. I think it was another of these threads where I mentioned I've got no problem at all with people handily soloing world bosses on decently built characters. But everything else could use a little adjustment so they're not just blades of grass waiting to be mowed down like they aren't even there.

Plus, there's a catch that I think a lot of people might be missing here. One Tamriel. In theory, the game should be roughly the same difficulty from level 1 to level CP160. So it wouldn't actually need a dramatic shift in difficulty to satisfy most of the desire for more challenge in the general overland enviroment. Or in this case, any challenge at all no matter how superficial.

Thannazzar

Interesting video, made me think.. I've always considered one shot mechanics punishing lazy coding. I'd be happy with tougher overland, as long as the same challenging not punishing rules applied throughout the game.

eKsDee

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

The exact opposite is what actually happens, though. These players are only dealing 2k DPS, or aren't properly blocking and healing, because of how easy overland is. Overland never really requires you to do these things, outside of a few cases, and it actively harms the personal knowledge and skill growth of players who primarily do overland content.

A player who primarily quests and explores is never really taught how to properly deal damage, protect themselves from damage, manage their resources, or even how to properly build their character. The tutorial may cover a fraction of this -- Elsweyr actually does a decent job at showing players these things, to be fair -- but it pretty much goes in one ear and out the other, because they're immediately thrown into content that really doesn't require any of that.

So of course when this player starts delving into group content, and naturally underperforms because they're playing an Altmer heavy armour wearing stamDK DPS, who uses a sword and shield for their weapons, while only light attacking -- because overland has allowed them to -- of course other players are going to respond with harsh and honestly fair criticism. Group content has a certain expectation, that unfortunately doesn't line up at all with anything overland offers, and this player completely failed to meet that expectation.

Overland difficulty I feel is a part of a much larger problem, that directly ties into why the perceived skill gap is as large as it is, despite Zenimax repeatedly introducing tools for newer players to use to improve their gameplay, and meet said expectations. Put simply, the game is coddling newer players far too much (between overland, nerfing of harder content, constant catering to unskilled and pure numbers-carried gameplay in PvP, etc), and it's actively harming how newer players are playing ESO, and driving a wedge between the newer players and what should be their idols/mentors.

As I've said in other threads, for this current problem, I'll always support an optional player-sided debuff, so I can have my fun in overland without affecting other players. But I can't just ignore this other massive problem that's linked to this current problem, and it's one that really has to be solved if the entire ESO community wants to collectively move forward.

Deyirn

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Vanilla/Classic WoW. Not the most deep combat, but at least it requires you to learn your class well in order to utilize it to its fullest and know what you can and cannot handle. The numbers speak for themselves.

Deyirn

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

For the OP what made you leave ESO the first time? If you’ve already left a game for some reason or another than coming back could trigger that all over again. If you already found things easy or we’re bored with content than a few years in between doesn’t necessarily change how you feel about the game.

As someone who plays games and moves on a lot I usually judge the quality of a game by how many hours of engaging content, but for sure when I am done with the game than I am done with it. Like I put 400 hours into FO4 but I’m done with it. 150 into AC Odyssey and I’m done with that too. I’m at 400 here in ESO and feel like I am just getting started. The difficulty doesn’t even bother me here. I look at most of it as easy exp and free gold much in the same mold if nearly every other RPG I played growing up grinding the same zone over and over again to level up to the point where I could 1 shot my way to the final boss. That was the point in those games to get as powerful as you could. ESO isn’t much different but the super power comes a bit too fast.

There is more than enough engaging content to keep you occupied otherwise though, unless you are here for the fights alone than you’ve basically got PvP against other live humans. That’s most games in general these days though. The only challenge is in PVP because in all the games I have played with difficulty sliders once you get used to the mechanics the AI becomes predictable and easy enough to beat no matter how many HP or DMG you give it.

I left, because right after I bought the game as B2P, I didn't expect so soon for them to start releasing DLCs with more content. At the time I was low budget and couldn't afford to keep pouring money into the game and that disappointed me as I thought I wouldn't be able to keep up with the pace of buying new content so often, now that's not an issue for me, but the game doesn't give me motivation to play, even though I have some Chapters and DLCs bought.

Deyirn

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

Making tutorial content (and that is what overland content essentially is) difficult is extremely punishing to casuals and newbies. And it's the absolute worst way to sustain a game.

If you want harder content, [snip] Learn to PVP. Learn to Vet Trial. Learn to play DLC dungeons so well that you can skin them. Almost all of the content in this game is catered to people who enjoy challenge, you don't need the little that isn't too.

[snip] I clearly said that it's optional - when you create your character, you can make it a Hardcore character, therefore the experience is hard for you, but remains the same for everybody else. Giving an incentive like more rewards on Hardcore character will also make people question if they want to give it a try too and get better rewards.

Another thing I don't agree with you about is that you're telling me if I want hard content I should do Trials and PvP. Well, if you play ESO and I imagine you do, you know that level 15-50 PvP is one thing, then you can't do PvP unless you gear up, because you get destroyed, so all the content you tell me to play is locked behind all the boring and easy leveling I must go through. And also I enjoy open areas, where I can see the sky, I can't just spend my whole time of playing Trials and PvP, [snip]

I don't have more desire to discuss with you [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting and Rude comments]

Deyirn

Casterial wrote: »

Game is routed toward casuals now, even PVP is headed that direction. They make the money, and we'll laugh. When Elder Scrolls VI releases Elder Scrolls Online community will dip so bad because they catered toward those players who are just waiting for ES6, they didn't cater toward the MMO playerbase.

Considering how easy Skyrim was compared to Oblivion and Morrowind, then Fallout 4 compared to New Vegas, I'm inclined to believe that TES6 will be even easier and catered towards casual players who are there just for the story. Then people will have to resort to mods to up the difficulty, but even that won't be enough as the fundamentals of the game will be so dumbed-down that all the focus went into the story and hardware-heavy graphics that push to buy new hardware and keep the hardware industry going. Not that I have an issue with nice graphics, I explicitly bought a gaming PC so I can be able to run all of the new games that pique my interest.

But I don't think TES6 will be a step up in terms of difficulty or deep mechanics, I seriously doubt it.

Deyirn

barney2525 wrote: »

Yet another one of these posts. I liked the part about 'without making this post extremely long'. That was funny.

Why do so many people actually believe that Their view is the one shared by ALL others? It's Not. Everything you said is Your personal view. It's Your personal preference. And yet for some reason you really believe that this game must change to what you, and you only, prefer.

Here's the Facts. No game, Not this one and not any other, is customized to a specific person and what They prefer. A game is created and developed and then placed out for public use AS IS. If you like it - Fine. If you don't like it - Fine. You are welcome to do something else. It's a free world.

I like the way it is. My view is that overland is supposed to be a Nuisance and Not a Challenge. The challenges should be the bigger, more important quests and bosses etc. IMHO overland is the flavor. It is Not the main emphasis of the game. And I know this is just my opinion. And the devs could change the game in such a way that I would not enjoy it anymore. At which point I might post something, I might not. If it was bad enough for me to decide the game was not worth playing, I would Not post anything. I would move on.

What I would Not do is insist that the Devs change the game to exactly what I want it to be.

IMHO

Have you even read my post or only the title and started assuming?

Because if you read it, you would have known that I kept saying how there are two types of people - those who like the game as it is and those who think it's too easy, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Knightpanther

Glurin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personally, I find that most of the people who want hard overland content are selfish scrubs. They don't want to put in any effort or teamwork to engage in the tons of challenging content we do have, and instead want to steal away the content meant for casuals and newbies.

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. You know, something they can actually engage with instead of just being something you click a mouse button on.

I think your overlooking the fact that most of us are sitting on 1200+ CP, full Gold gear, maxed skills/abilitys inc guild/alliance war skills/passives, try it as a new person with starting gear and only a few skills.

Be Safe

Deyirn

Fingolfinn01 wrote: »

Great post. Thats why single player rpg are in some ways better than mmorpg. The quest stories are just better with impending doom, rather than just 1 or 2 shoot the last boss. Quests usually are remembered for the tough fights. This seems lost on the developers or just to difficult to implement. Having a difficult instance for quests will also solve another problem of other players killing the boss who are on the same quest line.

I agree - my most memorable games like this were Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time and Warrior Within. I remember the adrenaline-inducing combat, the tough bosses and how good it felt after I beat them after the 2nd, 3rd or 4th try... It's something great in older games that is now completely lost in an effort to cater to a larger audience, except they are forgetting that the first audience now feels left out.

I play games for the adventure, and for me adventure starts when I first log into the world with my character, with my first quest and so on. I really try to understand this mindset of people that think the easy overland content is fine, and I accept it, but cannot comprehend it - it's like explaining the concept of the 4th dimension to your dog.

I really can't understand how those people are fine with just mindlessly rushing through content just so they can reach the end game where they will again mindlessly grind. I don't see any adventure in that, it's like me and those people play the games for completely different reasons. I can understand they want to see the story with their first character and not face difficulty, but I want to ask something:

How do they enjoy experiencing the same story with a different character if they already know the story? And also, how do they experience the story in dungeons when your whole party is rushing through the dungeon and you can't even hear what NPCs have to say - you just hear random ramblings of bosses and that's it. I have played every dungeon in ESO and because of that I don't even know the story about each of them. I figured the only way is to join with friends and they wait for me to read/hear everything before we move on, sadly I didn't find such patient people. Everyone just wants to rush through content like the game is some sort of a rat race where the only goal is to reach the end...

I thought TES games were about story and the adventure of being right here in the moment, not just mindlessly destroying cannon fodder enemies just to move on to the next quest and repeat the procedure... I honestly don't understand why those people even play like this and how they find this to be enjoyable...

Deyirn

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

That's because there are obviously many players who have no experience in MMOs, who knows that their demographics are? Kids aged 7-8, some just retired elder who has too much time on their hands and just gets into gaming... Parents playing with their kids? Who knows...

I don't believe that the people who complain that the game is hard or that there is so much to learn. The mechanics of the game are simple enough to learn for a week and then it becomes a mindless drivel - you know when to parry, block, roll, it's just that those people don't have experience with MMOs. Not that the game is hard, because believing it's hard is asinine.

Deyirn

Oliviander wrote: »

I never did that,
but questing without armor should be a valid option

No, but what would be a valid option if there is a new Crown Shop item just for you called "Elixir of the Gods" that boosts your stats by 500% for 30 days so you can feels safe and really good.

Deyirn

eKsDee wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I said this in one of these other threads, I'll say it again here: it strikes me as odd that we have people claiming the game is too easy, yet how many droves of threads do we see about people pugging for even normal dungeons and complaining that at least one person in the group doesn't know how to play because "they only do 2k DPS" or "they don't know how to hold block" or "they don't know how to use healing spells right" and so on? If the game was really this easy it seems to me that there'd be a lot fewer people saying their fellow players are bad or suck or otherwise aren't holding up to their standards, especially in terms of DPS.

The exact opposite is what actually happens, though. These players are only dealing 2k DPS, or aren't properly blocking and healing, because of how easy overland is. Overland never really requires you to do these things, outside of a few cases, and it actively harms the personal knowledge and skill growth of players who primarily do overland content.

A player who primarily quests and explores is never really taught how to properly deal damage, protect themselves from damage, manage their resources, or even how to properly build their character. The tutorial may cover a fraction of this -- Elsweyr actually does a decent job at showing players these things, to be fair -- but it pretty much goes in one ear and out the other, because they're immediately thrown into content that really doesn't require any of that.

So of course when this player starts delving into group content, and naturally underperforms because they're playing an Altmer heavy armour wearing stamDK DPS, who uses a sword and shield for their weapons, while only light attacking -- because overland has allowed them to -- of course other players are going to respond with harsh and honestly fair criticism. Group content has a certain expectation, that unfortunately doesn't line up at all with anything overland offers, and this player completely failed to meet that expectation.

Overland difficulty I feel is a part of a much larger problem, that directly ties into why the perceived skill gap is as large as it is, despite Zenimax repeatedly introducing tools for newer players to use to improve their gameplay, and meet said expectations. Put simply, the game is coddling newer players far too much (between overland, nerfing of harder content, constant catering to unskilled and pure numbers-carried gameplay in PvP, etc), and it's actively harming how newer players are playing ESO, and driving a wedge between the newer players and what should be their idols/mentors.

As I've said in other threads, for this current problem, I'll always support an optional player-sided debuff, so I can have my fun in overland without affecting other players. But I can't just ignore this other massive problem that's linked to this current problem, and it's one that really has to be solved if the entire ESO community wants to collectively move forward.

That's a very good idea for the Hardocore mode I talked about. A player-only debuff, except it's constant, at least in the overworld, and when you enter dungeons, trials, PvP, it goes away. This is actually a fantastic idea and solution to the whole problem.

I'm amazed how explicitly state that this does not interfere with players who like the difficulty as it is and yet come those people who read 3 words and their mind boggles down and they get tired from reading due to short attention spam and then jump into the comments to preach how I should play with no armor or go play Trials.. Gee, I wonder how can I play trials at level 1 or go to Alliance war at level 1 with no gear? Maybe they can't think far ahead?

I also agree with the notion that easy overland content leads many players to never learn how to play their character the best way possible and become useless baggage in dungeons and other more challenging content. I never really thought about that, but actually the easy overworld content is teaching new players bad habits.

Again, from reading this discussion, all the constructive and all the asinine replies, I gathered, that there isn't much hope for this game to become better, maybe I should just call it a day and go back to SWG and Vanilla WoW. It's clear that ZOS only cares about people buying the new story content and cosmetics from the Crown Store and what easier way than to make the game as easy as possible... It's kinda sad that this game went downhill like this. I can only imagine installing it after another 5 years to see what happens and I create a brand new character that is automatically equipped in purple legendary gear and has an aura where when he gets close to mobs, it starts dealing them DOTs.

Deyirn

Knightpanther wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. You know, something they can actually engage with instead of just being something you click a mouse button on.

I think your overlooking the fact that most of us are sitting on 1200+ CP, full Gold gear, maxed skills/abilitys inc guild/alliance war skills/passives, try it as a new person with starting gear and only a few skills.

Be Safe

I tried it. I deleted all my characters and started from scratch - it's just that easy. I went with a level 5 character to Elsweyr and I was easily kiting special mobs, normal mobs died almost instantly. It's not that having a new character with no gear and no CP that's the problem. It's when you know how to play the game, it's just too easy and dumb. Like, the more I played and the more mobs I killed with 1-2 hits, the more I wanted to uninstall it and so I did...

That's why the game's vertical progression and power creep is another issue, which I prefer not to delve into.

Linaleah

Fingolfinn01 wrote: »

Great post. Thats why single player rpg are in some ways better than mmorpg. The quest stories are just better with impending doom, rather than just 1 or 2 shoot the last boss. Quests usually are remembered for the tough fights. This seems lost on the developers or just to difficult to implement. Having a difficult instance for quests will also solve another problem of other players killing the boss who are on the same quest line.

"usually". not for me

I rarely remember quests for tough fights and then - only because those fights annoyed or frustrated me in some way. what i remember about quests is their story. a twist in a plot, a particularly well written character, an ending that makes me emotional in some way. or jokes.
the only exception to the boss rule is if that boss fight is integrated into an actual narrative in some way, and then i remember it not for how tough it was, but in which way it framed the narrative or was framed by it.

as much as I'd like to believe that i'm a super special unique snowflake, I'm pretty sure that my take is rather common.

Linaleah

Deyirn wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Just interested, can you tell me one successful MMO that has a difficult overland experience?
Something you wish ESO would be more like?

Be Safe

Vanilla/Classic WoW. Not the most deep combat, but at least it requires you to learn your class well in order to utilize it to its fullest and know what you can and cannot handle. The numbers speak for themselves.

sigh. it requires you to understand the bare basics of the game. a lot fewer of them than ESO, because the combat is slower, stat distribution is shallower and abilities are fewer.

the who reason original WoW became this popular because it was the first EASY mmo on a market of MMO's that required near full time commitment and constant grouping to be able to do anything in. the little fact that WoW has AUTO ATTACK alone should tell you how much more accessible that game was meant to be.

wow overland is NOT difficult once you figure out that you are not meant to make AoE pulls and that you should be sticking to yellow or green quests and mobs. in many ways its easier then ESO. it certainly doesn't have as twitchy of a combat, so rotations are far FAR easier.

Wifeaggro13

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Great, another thread with the same topic. I wonder if this one will be any different 🙄🙄🙄

If you want a punishing extremly difficult game then go buy one, tons of them exist. This isn't a single player game and adding difficulty modes on noninstanced combat will not work.

I really do think the players that think the "old" ESO pre one Tamriel have a case of false memory. It's always the same story, I played in beta, left and have a significant play gap, they return and feel like the game is easier when the difficulty has maintained.

ZOS also isn't excluding people, it's the opposite. They keep the game open to as many players as possible and no one is going to suddenly join ESO for a hardcore mode that wasn't already interested in the TES series. Sure, you'd get a tiny fraction of players back but is that potential tiny fraction enough to make it worth completely revamping overland content and changing it completely? Most likely not.

I want to point out one part in the video. "For something to be enjoyably difficult rather than punishing it has to allow the player an outlet to approach problems in new ways." Will we get new ways to approach things and defeat them? Will there be new mechanics involved with enemies that we can use to defeat them or are we just going to get things with more HP because longer doesn't = harder

After two weeks a new player will be max . Learned nothing on how to play the game .they enter the late game progression completely clueless. Then they will make a hundred threads chastising elitists and say the game is way to hard and quit. There is no permanent community here and a big reason for it is the extremely poor implementation of Tam one. Though it solved a glaring flaw in the game it destroyed longevity. Hell they cant even fix the BS champion point system to something interesting and progressive . What people are asking for is to make the game fun again now it's just not.

Kiralyn2000

Glurin wrote: »

Or we just want the overland content to be something that could actually pose a teeny tiny little bit of a threat to said casuals and newbies. You know, something they can actually engage with instead of just being something you click a mouse button on.

So how does that explain the 'newbies' we hear in general chat talking about how they're getting wrecked by overland mobs?

(and yes, I've seen that. Like when I started a Morrowind character the month before Summerset's launch. i.e, in the primary 'start zone' for new players, but long after the chapter release when the zone was full of long-time players)

Knightpanther wrote: »

I think your overlooking the fact that most of us are sitting on 1200+ CP, full Gold gear, maxed skills/abilitys inc guild/alliance war skills/passives, try it as a new person with starting gear and only a few skills.

Long-time & skilled players also have plenty of knowledge of the game mechanics (weaving, rotations, proper skill combos, minor & major buffs, etc). Which is why the various "turn off your CP / wear crap gear" suggestions don't work for providing challenge for them.

A trial player, with a brand new account & white gear, can do vastly more than a new player with white gear. Just because they know how the game works inside-and-out.

Rave the Histborn

Deyirn wrote: »

I don't believe that the people who complain that the game is hard or that there is so much to learn. The mechanics of the game are simple enough to learn for a week and then it becomes a mindless drivel - you know when to parry, block, roll, it's just that those people don't have experience with MMOs. Not that the game is hard, because believing it's hard is asinine.

Sure, because you're intentionally lying to yourself to make your wrong opinion sound valid. You can apply the same complaint to every game out there. In Dark Souls you know when to parry, block, roll. It's not that hard a game. Believing everyone isn't to your skill level is more asinine though. Yes, this game is hard to people. [snip]

Deyirn wrote: »

That's a very good idea for the Hardocore mode I talked about. A player-only debuff, except it's constant, at least in the overworld, and when you enter dungeons, trials, PvP, it goes away. This is actually a fantastic idea and solution to the whole problem.

I'm amazed how explicitly state that this does not interfere with players who like the difficulty as it is and yet come those people who read 3 words and their mind boggles down and they get tired from reading due to short attention spam and then jump into the comments to preach how I should play with no armor or go play Trials.. Gee, I wonder how can I play trials at level 1 or go to Alliance war at level 1 with no gear? Maybe they can't think far ahead?

It's a very poor idea, it's been brought up multiple times and there's no way to implement a zone wide debuff like that without making zones instanced. Just because you say it'll be implemented with no interference, doesn't mean it won't interfere with the game. It's like reading the thoughts of someone who's never played anything but single player games and doesn't understand the difficulties of an MMO experience. It's amazing how people can keep bringing up the same idea, get told the truth about how it can't be implemented like that and then just repeat the same idea over and over and over and over again.

Yes, you get told to play with no armor or go into trials because you're saying the game is too easy in the easiest content available. What else did you expect? Do you play with children's toys and the complain that they're too easy to match and that we need to make them harder so adults can play too? Playing with no armor is also the solution to all your problems

Less Damage (check)
Less Stats (check)
More Enemy Damage (check)
Longer fights (check)

It's weird that all of the things you want out of a debuffed overland hardmode can already be accomplished but the problem is you need ZOS to implement a debuff because you refuse to do it. It kinda makes you wonder where the real problem is. Is it the game or your experience. It sounds like it's you.

Deyirn wrote: »

So of course when this player starts delving into group content, and naturally underperforms because they're playing an Altmer heavy armour wearing stamDK DPS, who uses a sword and shield for their weapons, while only light attacking -- because overland has allowed them to -- of course other players are going to respond with harsh and honestly fair criticism. Group content has a certain expectation, that unfortunately doesn't line up at all with anything overland offers, and this player completely failed to meet that expectation.

What about all the people in vet dungeon pugs that only spam one ability/light attack/ or heavy attack? By your own admission these people should at this point be challenged and should know everything about the game. They should be so good at the game, overland is a joke and they've progressed through normal dungeons that taught them the importance of mechanics, parsing, etc. right!? No, completely, 100% utterly wrong and 100% opposite of what actually happens.

There's also nothing wrong with an sDK Altmer in heavy armor. That's part of how ZOS designed the game, they want you to be able to play like that and not feel limitations. I mean you can beat vet content with only light attacks, it's not really a valid criticism. It doesn't matter how much overland "allows" you to do, it's what you're willing to learn.

Deyirn wrote: »

Overland difficulty I feel is a part of a much larger problem, that directly ties into why the perceived skill gap is as large as it is, despite Zenimax repeatedly introducing tools for newer players to use to improve their gameplay, and meet said expectations. Put simply, the game is coddling newer players far too much (between overland, nerfing of harder content, constant catering to unskilled and pure numbers-carried gameplay in PvP, etc), and it's actively harming how newer players are playing ESO, and driving a wedge between the newer players and what should be their idols/mentors.

The the skill gap is because of animation cancelling not because of overland difficulty. You can call it coddling but the reality of the situation is our DPS system is a system that can not be taught in game. That's the most common hurdle I see for people new to the game and getting into more endgame content have to learn. Overland all the way up to vet DLCs dungeons never teach or require you to animation cancel and if you took it out it would force everyone to player better right? It would reduce stuff like the skill gap, you wouldn't need to coddle newer players, you could give tutorials in game on how to do damage, etc. It would also prevent vets like yourself from pushing out these crazy DPS numbers making the game more difficult overall for them. I think getting rid of animation canceling would help you out more than a debuff

Deyirn wrote: »

Again, from reading this discussion, all the constructive and all the asinine replies, I gathered, that there isn't much hope for this game to become better, maybe I should just call it a day and go back to SWG and Vanilla WoW. It's clear that ZOS only cares about people buying the new story content and cosmetics from the Crown Store and what easier way than to make the game as easy as possible... It's kinda sad that this game went downhill like this. I can only imagine installing it after another 5 years to see what happens and I create a brand new character that is automatically equipped in purple legendary gear and has an aura where when he gets close to mobs, it starts dealing them DOTs.

I think it's funny you think ESO will become so laughably easy but you willingly play a game that sells you max level characters so you don't have to take the time leveling in their easy and painfully boring overland. The quests boil down to 2 or 3 generic quest types, gear is absolutely meaningless, and enemies lack any sort of real danger or teeth to them. The reason I quit WoW is because there is no real progression, you progress but everything lacks the sense of accomplishment and everything I had worked to by the time I was and endgame raider they were giving away equal or better versions.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

SebDeTyra

I agree, overland feels like a Korean grinder now, just collect the whole map and aoe them down. The game is way too easy. I like the feeling of danger whilst exploring but this game doesn't have it. Also they can't use the excuse that kids could be playing as the game is rated 18.

Everest_Lionheart

For what it’s worth as a new player starting out there is so much to learn and explore in ESO that without that initial power surge a person might get discouraged and give up on the game. My early experiences vs my experience now is night and day.

When I started I was having issues myself. Woke up in Elsweyr, got my training sword, smashed those first few skellies in the first room then went outside and proceeded to die a least 6 times before I sounded the dragon horn to clear that first quest. Once out in the overland with a few levels under my belt I side several times to a alits, ran like hell from that ogre near star haven adeptorium and made it to Riverhold where I struggled through a few other quests when I had to fight outside of town. In those days I avoided dragons and world bosses like the plague. I do remember at some point I was proud to have killed a Minotaur in overland, then proceeded to die on the next one. Delves even felt daunting. Eventually I picked up enough levels and confidence to not get myself killed anymore and to not take 20-25 minutes per delve. I had zero knowledge of builds, wasn’t doing PvP and still just trying to understand crafting. It was a lot to learn.

Fast forward some 400 game hours later. That character has an identity, 2x 5pc sets, gold weapons, all crafting skills at 50, proposer skills slotted, proper rotation, decent DPS and is soloing 4 man content. It’s a walk in the park but at CP310 I expect it to be, though to be fair it’s been mostly a walk in the park since around lv40 when I discovered that you can build any character and style you want but you should probably do some research and follow some sort of guide.

Now contrast that to my second character which I have only just started. My knowledge of the game from playing experience, reading guides and watch videos is vast. I rerolled this new character in Elsweyr also. I was fighting dragons by level 5 on this one because I knew the mechanics although there are 2 mechanics that still kill me but that’s because my character is under equipped and way too squishy. Mechanics I can power through with a few more levels under my belt though. I’ve killed all the world bosses with between 1-3 other players usually mid to high CP but I don’t die on them because I know the mechanics. I’m PvPing because I know how important the skill lines are to my build as I intend for this to be my real endgame build.

But if course overland and delves are a live of cake. At level 5 I had to manage rss and fight smartly a bit but by the time I got my second bar nothing in the regular world was really hurting me anymore. Now at level 25 I am pushing 7K DPS with a rotation on a single bar that I don’t even practice in equipment that has dropped in the content, without a mundus, not using food basically spamming LA/skill and weaving some heavy attacks for sustain. It’s like EZ mode now. Doesn’t hurt that I managed a 5pc crafty alfiq on a newbie magicka character either so I have that set bonus but new players won’t understand the importance of these things because they will be so busy dying they will look for anything that boosts HP.

So you see the progression in game is the real difference here. It’s really does feel daunting to a new player but with a ton of experience nothing is really that hard anymore. The same is true of any game though. ESO seems to put you on the Power surge a bit faster than other games but even that is debatable. Other games have starter zones that are even simpler than here and when you get to the main game the content jumps up slightly but never really gets any harder with the exception of a boss or two but even the first few bosses aren’t that hard. What those games do however is use those opportunities to teach mechanics that you’ll need for the endgame. That’s someone ESO does lack. The jump to endgame is severe and there is not middle ground to get you there. That’s the biggest flaw I can see with the game.