Ok enough is enough, unkilable players is getting worse.

NocturnalSonata · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

Sure lets have everyone use the same build, the more skillful wins (some luck always involved). This would be the very definition of a balanced fight. It is the only way (over time) you can figure out skill divorced from build in a specific scenario.

I dont know why people go on about skill vs sets. Its a moot point, as the answer is obvious. - Skill trumps sets. But that is not the point.

the point = builds should not exist that sustain for days, have huge amounts of resists, health, and dps. no loss, no real disadvantage. Rest assured many an average pvp'er is being hard carried by them.

Not that balance can be achieved in lag anyway, so i guess its all moot.

Tell you what. You put on what I use (bloodspawn NMA fury) and I’ll put on a beginner setup (bloodspawn hundings shacklebreaker) and let’s see just how relative the builds are compared to skill in a 1v1.

I run very little sustain because I know how to weave in heavy attacks. That’s one of the most important ways to separate good players from bad. No good 1vXer runs a sustain 5pc.

I know you aren’t trying to disagree with me but I find your fundamental premise to be wrong. I don’t run sustain sets and the only defense set I have is bloodspawn (I’m an orc in medium armor). My defense AND my sustain come from skills (weaving heavies, kiting, knowing when to block, knowing when to dodge, etc) that most mediocre players haven’t bothered to learn.

So that’s why I disagree with your main point... it’s just flat out wrong. But I do appreciate the civility with which you made it and I respect the clarity of your logic. It makes sense, it’s just an argument built on a flawed premise.

The issue i have, is that you are classifying things in terms of the top end. I have no reason to doubt your claims of your ability so will assume it as such. But that top-end level would always perform well no matter what, even if there were 0 sets, and homogenized bar skills.

Lets examine a real life example (supposed) a nice large razor sharp sword is better than an boat oar right? given that both are gonna have similar range, the sword is objectively better in every scenario, except in the hands of musashi, the oar proved to be better. people use that example to demonstrate tactics, however, there is no reason to presume that musashi would not have won using a similar sword (probably much easier - although most of hist tactics were mental anyway). Point being you cannot equate skill vs equipment at the top-end, any attempt fails to actually identify the real factor.

Now back on topic. At the top end, your description and challenge is probably correct. At mid tier, it most certainly is not, and at bottom tier its not worth even getting into.

Using my example. My hypothesis is: two mid-tier fighters one using the sword, the other the oar... if you think the outcome si the oar. Then i am not sure how to reply

- that si the only point i am making. Certain builds provide too much with next to no loss - no such builds should exist.

Thogard · May 2020

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

Sure lets have everyone use the same build, the more skillful wins (some luck always involved). This would be the very definition of a balanced fight. It is the only way (over time) you can figure out skill divorced from build in a specific scenario.

I dont know why people go on about skill vs sets. Its a moot point, as the answer is obvious. - Skill trumps sets. But that is not the point.

the point = builds should not exist that sustain for days, have huge amounts of resists, health, and dps. no loss, no real disadvantage. Rest assured many an average pvp'er is being hard carried by them.

Not that balance can be achieved in lag anyway, so i guess its all moot.

Tell you what. You put on what I use (bloodspawn NMA fury) and I’ll put on a beginner setup (bloodspawn hundings shacklebreaker) and let’s see just how relative the builds are compared to skill in a 1v1.

I run very little sustain because I know how to weave in heavy attacks. That’s one of the most important ways to separate good players from bad. No good 1vXer runs a sustain 5pc.

I know you aren’t trying to disagree with me but I find your fundamental premise to be wrong. I don’t run sustain sets and the only defense set I have is bloodspawn (I’m an orc in medium armor). My defense AND my sustain come from skills (weaving heavies, kiting, knowing when to block, knowing when to dodge, etc) that most mediocre players haven’t bothered to learn.

So that’s why I disagree with your main point... it’s just flat out wrong. But I do appreciate the civility with which you made it and I respect the clarity of your logic. It makes sense, it’s just an argument built on a flawed premise.

The issue i have, is that you are classifying things in terms of the top end. I have no reason to doubt your claims of your ability so will assume it as such. But that top-end level would always perform well no matter what, even if there were 0 sets, and homogenized bar skills.

Lets examine a real life example (supposed) a nice large razor sharp sword is better than an boat oar right? given that both are gonna have similar range, the sword is objectively better in every scenario, except in the hands of musashi, the oar proved to be better. people use that example to demonstrate tactics, however, there is no reason to presume that musashi would not have won using a similar sword (probably much easier - although most of hist tactics were mental anyway). Point being you cannot equate skill vs equipment at the top-end, any attempt fails to actually identify the real factor.

Now back on topic. At the top end, your description and challenge is probably correct. At mid tier, it most certainly is not, and at bottom tier its not worth even getting into.

Using my example. My hypothesis is: two mid-tier fighters one using the sword, the other the oar... if you think the outcome si the oar. Then i am not sure how to reply - that si the only point i am making. Certain builds provide too much with next to no loss - no such builds should exist.

So what is an example of a set like this?

VaranisArano · May 2020

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

the point = builds should not exist that sustain for days, have huge amounts of resists, health, and dps. no loss, no real disadvantage. Rest assured many an average pvp'er is being hard carried by them.

Not that balance can be achieved in lag anyway, so i guess its all moot.

Part of where I struggle with this is knowing who is describing these builds that "seem" OP.

Because new or inexperienced players are measuring their opponents by a skewed metric. They often don't really know how to use their builds to full potential, they don't often know/use the full range of damage mitigation possible, and they often use their skills ineffectively, draining their resources and doing little damage.

At least...that's how I was as a new player.

I see a lot of the same issues when new/inexperienced players bravely come to the forums for advice.

Coming from that situation, its really easy for an inexperienced player to look at an experienced player and think "Wow, this guy has sustain for days while I'm dry, he's so tanky I can barely put a dent in him, and he turned around and slaughtered me!"

The experienced player isn't doing anything more than good PVP tactics, but it's easy to completely outclass people who are still learning. And that's what happens in a lot of successful 1vX.

There's another type: the player who's pretty good at 1v1 but doesn't like to lose or admit they've got room for improvement. These are common on the forums and like to start threads that sound like "I have a problem with X Class/Skill/Build, therefore so does everyone else, and ZOS should nerf it to the ground!" Rather than evaluate their own performance in the 1vX skirmish, this player complains about it, even though in all likelihood they could improve their tactics - sticking with their group, being aware of their surroundings - and do just fine in future engagements.

Now, when experienced players and organized groups start complaining, okay, something's probably up. ZOS doesn't like builds that can withstand organized groups of players, as evidenced by the cold, dead remains of the pre-Morrowind Blazeplar. Nuke it with an across-the-board nerf to sustain, Captain, its the only way to be sure!

VaranisArano · May 2020

Lady_Linux wrote: »

Clearly there need to be sets that only work in pvp and sets that only work in pve... All sets everywhere all the time isnt working. If you go into a pvp situation with a set that is earmarked for pve,it is removed and wont allow you to put it back on until you leave pvp, and vice-versa. NOW sorting that out could be a hassle, esp with all the craftable sets out there BUT it really needs to happen.

Why clearly?
Everyone in PVP has access to the same sets.

ultimnib16_ESO wrote: »

It is hilarious to read how everything is SKILL and how exceptionally SKILLED the poster is himself and how incredibly UNSKILLED the "zerglings" are
There is nothing or at least not much about any skill in ESO PvP.

Just look at what you need.
- 2 bars with 6 skills each
- a few potions
- some food
- an add on which will tell you the timers, display all effects and warnings
- then hit a key among 6 when the add on tells you to do so or a combination of them (always the same) to get a burst
- oh yes and do not to forget the supreme SKILL which is to click a mouse button preferrably (but not necessarily) in less than 1 second

Ok, there is a learning curve to learn what these 12 buttons do but this is nothing that, say a monkey, couldn't learn.
You don't need a PhD to do that.
It is quite carricatural to separate the 1vX situations systematically in 1 trained monkey and X untrained monkeys

The point being, and here I join the OP, that in a well balanced PvP there should never appear a situation where 1 guy could live for 5 minutes against 5 or more guys of comparable level, gear, add on and button clicking.
I don't know if some guys I met cheat but if they don't, then there are builds which are not well balanced.

Most of the "unskilled" we're talking about on the part of the X is in their decision-making process.

Things like:
"This guy is a solo hanging out at a resource, probably trolling for random players like me. Do I really want to fight him?"
"This guy wants me to chase him. Is it wise to follow him into that choke point or is he baiting me?"
"I've got a group of randoms with me. Do I do enough damage to take this guy down on my own or should I stick with the group and we'll work together?"
"Shoot, he just two-shot me! What did I do wrong that I was so vulnerable?"

Some of its a matter of actual PVP skill, like not running yourself out of resources chasing, how to effectively mitigate damage, or knowing how/when to do burst damage.

Most of it is just common sense and situational awareness, which takes time to acquire. It also means being honest with oneself about where you messed up and what you can improve on. The advice I'm giving about "stick together and don't go into choke points" is, well, learned from personal experience why I should do that.

And some players never really get comfortable with recognizing "This fight is probably unwinnable for me at my skill level right now, maybe I just shouldn't engage or, if I do, treat it as a learning experience."

High_Solar · May 2020

It's the freaking servers. In the early hours all my stats and damage work fine, rest of the day game just flips the table by giving me desyncs in all aspects. Damage doesn't work neither my heals and stats. I get one shot by everything while doing my rotation that does no damage. It's the freaking servers i tell you, this is why PVP sucks.

Sange13 · May 2020

ultimnib16_ESO wrote: »

The point being, and here I join the OP, that in a well balanced PvP there should never appear a situation where 1 guy could live for 5 minutes against 5 or more guys of comparable level, gear, add on and button clicking.
I don't know if some guys I met cheat but if they don't, then there are builds which are not well balanced.

It's this part. You state and miss the point at the same time. Those other X are not on the same level. It's not comparable. They make mistakes in their build, in the micro, in the coordination, and in their judgment. The 1vX guy is simply just playing better.

rk1101320 · May 2020

yeah im agree too many players with snb and heavy armor make the game too much unhealthy just ignore them

LadyNalcarya · May 2020

Sange13 wrote: »

ultimnib16_ESO wrote: »

The point being, and here I join the OP, that in a well balanced PvP there should never appear a situation where 1 guy could live for 5 minutes against 5 or more guys of comparable level, gear, add on and button clicking.
I don't know if some guys I met cheat but if they don't, then there are builds which are not well balanced.

It's this part. You state and miss the point at the same time. Those other X are not on the same level. It's not comparable. They make mistakes in their build, in the micro, in the coordination, and in their judgment. The 1vX guy is simply just playing better.

This.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone 1vXing against people who know what they're doing. There's just this category of players who find joy in crushing opponents by outnumbering them. But people are not pve mobs, if you're not playing smart, some of your opponents will try to use it against you (and this is the case in any pvp game, not just eso).
It's kinda ridiculous how people take an obvious bait (such as tower farm trick) and then complain. If you don't fall to 1vXers tricks, there's nothing he can do to you. There's no point in chasing a single person for 10 minutes anyway, even if you manage to kill them in the end.

Salvas_Aren · May 2020

I've seen cheaters for sure, those are those who show their toxicity in other ways too, since they often push their poor self esteem by cheat-killing others.

However, most unkillable players are just very skilled and theorycraft their own builds, thinking out of the box, they use creativity, experience, good movement, in some cases group play, and ofc weird stacking of (broken) effects, buffs etc.

Accusations of cheating are severe and should be used thoughtfully.

Orchish · May 2020

loosely_human wrote: »

Heavy armor meta must die.

It's not heavy armour, it's the fact sustain is easy to manage and decent players always use LoS to their advantage combined with how easy it is to heal through damage. You can be just as survivable in medium if not more since evading and rolling is better than simply tanking damage.

MEBengalsFan2001 · May 2020

The big issue I have is that PVP allows the use of gear sets that do some really high damage over a short time. Add those effects with light attacks, abilities, and other damage over time effects what felt like a one shot was 3-5 good strong hits even though you might have only seen one or two things happen.

Because some gears are setup this way it makes PVP feel like instance death against other players running them; even if you group up the group can die as a team against a single player. This may seem unfair but it does happen and it is all from players taking time to design their PVP build.

IMO PVP should have specific gear sets that can be only used in PVP and the remaining gear should be for PVE. This would help improve PVP but at the same time players would get upset because of the time invested in designing their PVP builds and grinding out to get said gear just to play the way they want to in PVP.

I'm sure a change is eventually going to come and it will impact various builds to both PVE and PVP. Yeah nerfs!

Sange13 · May 2020

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The big issue I have is that PVP allows the use of gear sets that do some really high damage over a short time. Add those effects with light attacks, abilities, and other damage over time effects what felt like a one shot was 3-5 good strong hits even though you might have only seen one or two things happen.

Because some gears are setup this way it makes PVP feel like instance death against other players running them; even if you group up the group can die as a team against a single player. This may seem unfair but it does happen and it is all from players taking time to design their PVP build.

IMO PVP should have specific gear sets that can be only used in PVP and the remaining gear should be for PVE. This would help improve PVP but at the same time players would get upset because of the time invested in designing their PVP builds and grinding out to get said gear just to play the way they want to in PVP.

I'm sure a change is eventually going to come and it will impact various builds to both PVE and PVP. Yeah nerfs!

This is just the nature of PvP balance, though. Nearly every PvP game has this happen if it also allows for strong mitigation and healing in PvP. MMOs in particular tend to be this way, but you see it in MOBAs as well.

Nord_Raseri · May 2020

Some people won't be happy until we're all lined up 1700's warfare style and throwing rocks at each other.

Moose_Scout · May 2020

BNOC wrote: »

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Moose_Scout wrote: »

1) 3) Balance so there isn't such an obnoxious play-to-win meta (Build stamcro or stamden and line-of-sight enemies...what great pvp!! *sarcasm)

I remain confused about how anyone expects ZOS to balance "line of sight" tactics. I mean, unless you want ZOS to remove every rock, tree, resource tower, etc. what is ZOS really going to do about someone's ability to hide behind obstacles? Plus, the more you nerf defenses from other sources, the more important it becomes to mitigate damage through movement.

If you just want a guaranteed stand-up fight, no LOS, I suggest dueling folks by the Undaunted tents.

Good advice as always, however you're wasting it in this thread. The egos need to hear that it's the game's/cheater's/universe's fault, that they're not good enough to kill the Tower farmer. Heaven forbid we suggest they just walk away from the battle and win the war instead.

When you forget about LOS (because that's not actually the underlying problem), the 'egos' are right, some of these builds are far beyond where they should be, especially by comparison.

It's undeniable that stam can build to hit 35k+ burst in a second, on any of the classes that have basic burst setups (stamden, stamdk, stamcro), there's next to no setup involved like a magdk, a magplar or a sorc, it's just press dizzy, press ult, press execute.

It must be mind numbing doing that combo over and over on PvE players in Cyro and using BRP & staminas universally superior mobility to bounce when you're in trouble, maybe a few roll dodges on the way that cost absolutely nothing.

I'm probably one of the most recognised Templars on XboxEu, 5 years I've played that. I have never done as much burst damage in the entire time I've played, that I am doing on a 1 week old Tyro Stamcro that's not even close to finished. Oh and my survivability, although not as easy as mist forming 4 years ago with major mending etc, is very close and if I couple in LOS etc, I do not die.

Anyone who thinks you can't build in clever ways that are damaging to the game is insane and I welcome you to come see me in game

This guy gets it. I have a pimped out Stamblade which I have played for years. I use EVERY skill and playing is like sending morse code sequences...rapid and perfectly timed, yet still sucks.

On my stamcro, I blastbones, dizzy, ultimate, execute. Dead...unless I am playing another stamcro...then we just look at each other as we instantly full heal. It would be fun... but now that pvp variety is dead, its not so fun anymore.

svartorn · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

If you think that it is bug or a cheaters, video with examples of those unkillable players will help.

Sounds like a good way to get banned.

[Snip]

[Edited for discussing disciplinary action]

huntgod_ESO · May 2020

There are some cheaters out there...this doesn't sound like them though.

There are some small groups that run, you can usually identify them because they will have names that make it difficult to report, like l1l1l1l1l1lO0O0O or some equally messed up garbage...if you engage them you will also get locked into combat and be unable to mount until one of you dies.

StarOfElyon · May 2020

The issue might be that it's too easy for Stam toons to sustain and deal high damage. You won't see many magicka toons able to break free and sprint endlessly and then turn around and smack players with a three-hit death combo.

Iskiab · May 2020

JayKwellen wrote: »

I too used to think there were "unkillable" players. I would watch in awe as they would tank whole groups, string them around a tower and cut them down one by one. I thought it was OP and ridiculous.

I tried to emulate what I thought they were doing - so I stacked tons of resistances, up to and beyond the cap. That must be it right?

Then I finally learned about passive mitigations and how to rotate HoTs, anticipate ultis/stuns/interrupts, how to LoS both offensively and defensively, and a new appreciation for resource recovery (I used to think it was useless, "why worry about that when you can just kill someone quickly and recover later?"). Now I run around in 5 pieces of light armor but have a higher % mitigation than if I was wearing all heavy. At any given time I can have up to 4 HoTs + 2 smaller intermittent heals going at simultaneously, and can take a tremendous beating before going down. I also maintain about 2000 unbuffed mag recovery at the cost of some spell damage, and about 1100 health and 900 Stam recovery. Sure, Im not gonna gank you, but unless you can sustain like me I'm gonna go for a loooong time. Eventually you'll slip and forget a buff or get too low, and that'll be the window I'm waiting for.

It's seriously just an issue of "the Indian not the arrow", i.e. learning how to play. And not just mechanics or builds or whatever, but it's just as important to learn your own playstyle too. What are you good at and what are you not? Don't just straight up copy one of Dottz or Kristopher builds, use them for inspiration sure, but build your character in a way that works for pvp but also in a way that works for you.

I'm kind of a good example myself, as I've only been playing ESO for about 6 months. My perspective and playstyle is so incredibly different than when I first started, to the point that almost literally everything I first thought was right was actually wrong. ESO tends to do that a lot I've noticed, something may "seem" correct on the surface, but once you dig into the mechanics you realize that nope, it's actually something much different. Honestly it's what makes this game so damn enthralling, because there's always something new to learn or test or try, and getting all your preconceived notions turned on their head is not just acommon experience, but also a humbling yet educational one.

I can relate. Next step is resource management and you’ll be stripping out sustain and your burst will go up. Then you’ll be on the other side of these threads.

It wasn’t always this way too. For a while resistances were great, but onslaught hard counters them.

A lot of the complaints stem from people not adapting quickly too. I play similarly to you with less sustain but with the healing changes I’m sure we’ll need to adapt again.

Frequent changes favours hardcore players I think. It’s still common to see complaints about strong classes from two patches ago, not everyone pvp’s every day and has the luxury of multiple sets to test out.

Thogard · May 2020

But seriously what sets, specifically, are you guys complaining out?

Jeremy · May 2020

NocturnalSonata wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

Sure lets have everyone use the same build, the more skillful wins (some luck always involved). This would be the very definition of a balanced fight. It is the only way (over time) you can figure out skill divorced from build in a specific scenario.

I dont know why people go on about skill vs sets. Its a moot point, as the answer is obvious. - Skill trumps sets. But that is not the point.

the point = builds should not exist that sustain for days, have huge amounts of resists, health, and dps. no loss, no real disadvantage. Rest assured many an average pvp'er is being hard carried by them.

Not that balance can be achieved in lag anyway, so i guess its all moot.

Skill is a factor. But unquestionably so are builds. So I'd put it at 50/50.

Jeremy · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

What I find truly disturbing is that although 1vX is a very learnable skill, the people who say it is hacks or builds or addons or X excuse have never even attempted to learn it. Their egos are rationalizing away their losses rather than attempting to learn from them.

And I’ve never seen a good player who thinks ESO PvP isn’t skill based. It’s not as skill based as it was, but it’s still extremely skill based.

The people who say that all you need to be good at PvP is an addon and a build all have one thing in common - they’ve never put on “that build” or used “that addon”. Usually they rationalize this by saying they don’t want to be a meta jumper, or they don’t want an unfair advantage. This is, of course, BS, seeing as how all addons get info specifically designed for our clients to have as determined by ZOS. All sets are in the game and are balanced by ZOS. The real reason some people don’t do this is because then they’d run out of excuses for why they keep losing.

If you think eso PvP is based around builds or addons, get the addons and put on the build and prove it.

Until they do, these people are literally talking about something they’ve never even attempted as if they were an authority on the matter. They clearly aren’t.

I look forward to fighting more people who will lose with excuses and stay ignorant rather than being humble enough to admit that there’s still more to learn, more ways to improve, and more builds to try. I always need more eXtras to feature on my stream and in YouTube uploads.

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

Nah. It's not nearly that plain and simple.

The only way to have a truly fair fight is to PvP on console (and even that may not be full proof).

A lot of the players who think they are so "skilled" (and I'm not referring to you, as I don't know your specific situation) use macros, special hardware (mouses that record scripted actions etc.), and a vast assortment of addons. it's usually quite easy to spot too - because a lot of them react at exactly the same speeds using exactly the same skills like a damn program. It's like fighting a robot with pre -programmed responses. It's hilarious too because at times you can exploit it by triggering the programmed response at inopportune times. But under normal circumstances it would certainly give them an advantage in response time. Then there are those who use simpler macros to string light attacks onto literally every action they do and never miss a beat, not even while circling or jumping or turning backwards in midair.

Then there are all those addons, that track specific actions for players, giving them endless notifications of various attacks and projectiles. These people like to pretend this is skill that enables them to react quicker and faster to incoming attacks then their opponent, but the truth is it's more likely they just have a more detailed interface than their opponent does.

Now I'm not suggesting this is "cheating". ZoS decides what is considered cheating on their game, not me. But this game's PvP is not fair and only seldom skill based. I would never consider any PvP tournament on this game valid
for example unless it took place on console, because there are just way too many advantages players have access to on PC that their opponents - for what ever reason - may not have. I saw this same thing happen on WoW, when PvP tournaments were won based more on what addons and macros the team had rather then the skill of their members.

Now so long as I'm having fun, none of this is a game breaker for me . Just don't expect me to buy into the illusion that this game's PvP is some competitive skill-based masterpiece. It's not. It's not even close to that.

MurderMostFoul · May 2020

Speed, positioning, recovery, burst.

That's all you're experiencing.

ForzaRammer · May 2020

Xologamer wrote: »

crowfl56 wrote: »

Ok now PC NA each week it gets worse.

Now I know some of these players are really that good, but to many have found a way to lets say adjust things in their favor.

So now there used to be 1 or 2 players ran around no body could kill but they couldn't kill anyone either.

But, now, big change, these peeps run around kill anyone they choose, almost, and just keep on without dying.

Anyone else notice this ?

Everyone should be killable, especially when 5 or even 10 people can't do any dmg.

Something smells IMO.

let the damn tnaks be tanks just walk away than they waste there time and they cant do anythink against it

Plz no, i want to eat your shooting star.

Thogard · May 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

What I find truly disturbing is that although 1vX is a very learnable skill, the people who say it is hacks or builds or addons or X excuse have never even attempted to learn it. Their egos are rationalizing away their losses rather than attempting to learn from them.

And I’ve never seen a good player who thinks ESO PvP isn’t skill based. It’s not as skill based as it was, but it’s still extremely skill based.

The people who say that all you need to be good at PvP is an addon and a build all have one thing in common - they’ve never put on “that build” or used “that addon”. Usually they rationalize this by saying they don’t want to be a meta jumper, or they don’t want an unfair advantage. This is, of course, BS, seeing as how all addons get info specifically designed for our clients to have as determined by ZOS. All sets are in the game and are balanced by ZOS. The real reason some people don’t do this is because then they’d run out of excuses for why they keep losing.

If you think eso PvP is based around builds or addons, get the addons and put on the build and prove it.

Until they do, these people are literally talking about something they’ve never even attempted as if they were an authority on the matter. They clearly aren’t.

I look forward to fighting more people who will lose with excuses and stay ignorant rather than being humble enough to admit that there’s still more to learn, more ways to improve, and more builds to try. I always need more eXtras to feature on my stream and in YouTube uploads.

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

Nah. It's not nearly that plain and simple.

The only way to have a truly fair fight is to PvP on console (and even that may not be full proof).

A lot of the players who think they are so "skilled" (and I'm not referring to you, as I don't know your specific situation) use macros, special hardware (mouses that record scripted actions etc.), and a vast assortment of addons. it's usually quite easy to spot too - because a lot of them react at exactly the same speeds using exactly the same skills like a damn program. It's like fighting a robot with pre -programmed responses. It's hilarious too because at times you can exploit it by triggering the programmed response at inopportune times. But under normal circumstances it would certainly give them an advantage in response time. Then there are those who use simpler macros to string light attacks onto literally every action they do and never miss a beat, not even while circling or jumping or turning backwards in midair.

Then there are all those addons, that track specific actions for players, giving them endless notifications of various attacks and projectiles. These people like to pretend this is skill that enables them to react quicker and faster to incoming attacks then their opponent, but the truth is it's more likely they just have a more detailed interface than their opponent does.

Now I'm not suggesting this is "cheating". ZoS decides what is considered cheating on their game, not me. But this game's PvP is not fair and only seldom skill based. I would never consider any PvP tournament on this game valid
for example unless it took place on console, because there are just way too many advantages players have access to on PC that their opponents - for what ever reason - may not have. I saw this same thing happen on WoW, when PvP tournaments were won based more on what addons and macros the team had rather then the skill of their members.

Now so long as I'm having fun, none of this is a game breaker for me . Just don't expect me to buy into the illusion that this game's PvP is some competitive skill-based masterpiece. It's not. It's not even close to that.

No addon does that in PvP. This is exactly the kind of unfounded accusation I was talking about. That addon literally doesn’t exist. If it does exist, please tell me where to download it.

People keep saying “oh this set is op and carries people to be too tanky and do dmg with sustain” and “oh this addon tells people when to block and dodge in PvP”

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

You’re speculating about something you know nothing about, and your argument will remain invalid until you tell us, specifically, what sets and addons you’re talking about. Bonus points if you actually use said sets and said addons so that you can demonstrate you actually have some basic level of familiarity with what you’re claiming to be an expert on.

SHOW · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

Dude, take it easy.

He doesn't know the cheese, that's why he is having trouble naming it.

For starters he could run what you undoubtedly do:

-Stam class (one of the big 3 i assume),
-nma,
-fury,
-bloodspawn (rip),

...for pure decency I hope u don't backbar brp dw, potentate's is bad enough now (rip balance further next patch with brp, WTF zos)

Stack absurd amounts of wd to get both burst and an equally absurd amounts of "tankiness" (i.e. healing)

It's not your fault, ZOS just needs to figure out how to balance damage/tankiness/healing... they shouldn't be direct related, but decoupled. there should be choices/tradeoffs. I don't have the answers.

apologies, please don't be offended by my post, im sure you are very skilled at the game (no sarcasm. serious.)

so let's continue this discussion, not distracted by incorrect claims of cheating/modding etc, but instead focus on how we can help ZOS better balance the core mechanics of the game we love.

technohic · May 2020

SHOW wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

Dude, take it easy.

He doesn't know the cheese, that's why he is having trouble naming it.

For starters he could run what you undoubtedly do:

-Stam class (one of the big 3 i assume),
-nma,
-fury,
-bloodspawn (rip),

...for pure decency I hope u don't backbar brp dw, potentate's is bad enough now (rip balance further next patch with brp, WTF zos)

Stack absurd amounts of wd to get both burst and an equally absurd amounts of "tankiness" (i.e. healing)

It's not your fault, ZOS just needs to figure out how to balance damage/tankiness/healing... they shouldn't be direct related, but decoupled. there should be choices/tradeoffs. I don't have the answers.

apologies, please don't be offended by my post, im sure you are very skilled at the game (no sarcasm. serious.)

so let's continue this discussion, not distracted by incorrect claims of cheating/modding etc, but instead focus on how we can help ZOS better balance the core mechanics of the game we love.

Decoupling heals from weapon and spell damage pushes us toward a trinity of heal, tank, DPS and ruins individual play just because people didn't like that others could build or play better than them; either case. Then there would still be good ball groups whipping larger groups and they are far more dangerous than the one guy that has a well rounded build. People would just move to complaining about them as their focus for 12 guys whipping their zerg.

Jeremy · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

What I find truly disturbing is that although 1vX is a very learnable skill, the people who say it is hacks or builds or addons or X excuse have never even attempted to learn it. Their egos are rationalizing away their losses rather than attempting to learn from them.

And I’ve never seen a good player who thinks ESO PvP isn’t skill based. It’s not as skill based as it was, but it’s still extremely skill based.

The people who say that all you need to be good at PvP is an addon and a build all have one thing in common - they’ve never put on “that build” or used “that addon”. Usually they rationalize this by saying they don’t want to be a meta jumper, or they don’t want an unfair advantage. This is, of course, BS, seeing as how all addons get info specifically designed for our clients to have as determined by ZOS. All sets are in the game and are balanced by ZOS. The real reason some people don’t do this is because then they’d run out of excuses for why they keep losing.

If you think eso PvP is based around builds or addons, get the addons and put on the build and prove it.

Until they do, these people are literally talking about something they’ve never even attempted as if they were an authority on the matter. They clearly aren’t.

I look forward to fighting more people who will lose with excuses and stay ignorant rather than being humble enough to admit that there’s still more to learn, more ways to improve, and more builds to try. I always need more eXtras to feature on my stream and in YouTube uploads.

The day I think I know everything about this game is the day I stop improving.

For people who might be curious, you’re welcome to watch me live stream. For people who think skill isn’t a factor, I challenge any of you to a 1v1 same build vs same build. *Insert “dueling isn’t skill based LUL” comment from them.*. Oh yeah? Then how come same build v same build the people who say this lose every time?

It’s immaturity and ego, plain and simple.

Nah. It's not nearly that plain and simple.

The only way to have a truly fair fight is to PvP on console (and even that may not be full proof).

A lot of the players who think they are so "skilled" (and I'm not referring to you, as I don't know your specific situation) use macros, special hardware (mouses that record scripted actions etc.), and a vast assortment of addons. it's usually quite easy to spot too - because a lot of them react at exactly the same speeds using exactly the same skills like a damn program. It's like fighting a robot with pre -programmed responses. It's hilarious too because at times you can exploit it by triggering the programmed response at inopportune times. But under normal circumstances it would certainly give them an advantage in response time. Then there are those who use simpler macros to string light attacks onto literally every action they do and never miss a beat, not even while circling or jumping or turning backwards in midair.

Then there are all those addons, that track specific actions for players, giving them endless notifications of various attacks and projectiles. These people like to pretend this is skill that enables them to react quicker and faster to incoming attacks then their opponent, but the truth is it's more likely they just have a more detailed interface than their opponent does.

Now I'm not suggesting this is "cheating". ZoS decides what is considered cheating on their game, not me. But this game's PvP is not fair and only seldom skill based. I would never consider any PvP tournament on this game valid
for example unless it took place on console, because there are just way too many advantages players have access to on PC that their opponents - for what ever reason - may not have. I saw this same thing happen on WoW, when PvP tournaments were won based more on what addons and macros the team had rather then the skill of their members.

Now so long as I'm having fun, none of this is a game breaker for me . Just don't expect me to buy into the illusion that this game's PvP is some competitive skill-based masterpiece. It's not. It's not even close to that.

No addon does that in PvP. This is exactly the kind of unfounded accusation I was talking about. That addon literally doesn’t exist. If it does exist, please tell me where to download it.

People keep saying “oh this set is op and carries people to be too tanky and do dmg with sustain” and “oh this addon tells people when to block and dodge in PvP”

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

You’re speculating about something you know nothing about, and your argument will remain invalid until you tell us, specifically, what sets and addons you’re talking about. Bonus points if you actually use said sets and said addons so that you can demonstrate you actually have some basic level of familiarity with what you’re claiming to be an expert on.

I don't remember claiming to be an expert. Can you please quote the relevant portion of my post where I supposedly claimed this?

But I know how to read threads that talk about recommend addons for PvP and then go online examine what those said addons purport to do. I'll give a few examples:

Key features:

1. Channeled attacks notification. Each channeled attack in the game has a start time(when the button is pressed) and an end time (when the attack actually fires). The addon provides an on-screen notification when a channelled attack against the player starts. This notification has the icon of the attack's ability and the name of the player initiating the attack.

Channeled attacks being tracked are:
- all heavy attacks (besides lightning staff and restoration staff),
- Snipe (Focused Aim, Lethal Arrow),
- Uppercut (Dizzying Swing, Wrecking Blow),
- Dark Flare/Solar Flare,
- hard-casted Crystal Fragments,
- Assassin's Will/Scourge,
- Ambush,
- Lotus Fan,
- Screaming Cliffracer and Cutting Dive.

2. Notifications for key projectiles. When you are the target of a projectile skill from the list you will get a sound and visual notification when the projectile is launched. Covered skills are:

- Crystal Blast and morphs,
- Javelin and morphs,
- Flame Reach and Shock Touch,
- Stormfist and morphs,
- Assassin's Will/Scourge,
- Shield Charge and its morphs,
- Toppling Charge,
- Unrelenting Grip,
- Scatter shot and its morphs,

The reasoning here is to alert the player about either hard hitting projectiles or those that stun on impact. While shield and toppling charges are not technically projectiles, they stun the player and, thus fall under this category.

5. KOS/COOL system. This feature allows you to add a person to KOS list and to get notified if this person attacked you or you mouseovered him on any character of his account.

Additionally the KOS list shows friends who are nearby.

As a separate feature KOS window shows people on your your COOL list. People added to this list (through context menu, keybind) are treated as friends throughout the addon. Think about a second friend list for cool people who didn't make it into you real friend list.

KOS window has 4 distinct modes. In 'All' mode both friends and KOS targets are shown. In "Allies" mode only friends/COOLs and KOS targets of the same faction as the player are shown. In "Enemies" mode the list will only have KOS targets who are not from the same faction as the player. And lastly in "Setup" mode you will see a scrollable list of all the players you added to the KOS list.

I won't bore you with more examples. But these addons claim to do pretty much exactly what I said they did.

And I didn't just mention addons either. I also talked about macros and specialized mouses that allow players to record scripted actions etc. There are just a lot of factors that can go into not just PvP - but the game play generally - that can give players advantages over others. This is nothing new has been a thing on PC MMORPGs for as long as I can remember. It was certainly a thing on WoW as well (a huge thing actually). I played with addons and macros on that game myself. Why? Because it was a huge advantage to do so and made me more effective in combat. So I don't know why you feel a need to try and deny their existence and pretend no one has advantages over others on this game due to these kinds of added programs and it's all just pure skill. It would be better to just admit it. It doesn't take away from your own abilities or skill to do so. It's simply an acceptance of the reality. And it's not just in combat. There are addons on this game that give players significant advantages in other areas of the game as well, such as using the guild traders or farming materials etc. I could really go on and on. But I won't because this post is long enough already.

midgetfromtheshire · May 2020

SHOW wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

Dude, take it easy.

He doesn't know the cheese, that's why he is having trouble naming it.

For starters he could run what you undoubtedly do:

-Stam class (one of the big 3 i assume),
-nma,
-fury,
-bloodspawn (rip),

...for pure decency I hope u don't backbar brp dw, potentate's is bad enough now (rip balance further next patch with brp, WTF zos)

Stack absurd amounts of wd to get both burst and an equally absurd amounts of "tankiness" (i.e. healing)

It's not your fault, ZOS just needs to figure out how to balance damage/tankiness/healing... they shouldn't be direct related, but decoupled. there should be choices/tradeoffs. I don't have the answers.

apologies, please don't be offended by my post, im sure you are very skilled at the game (no sarcasm. serious.)

so let's continue this discussion, not distracted by incorrect claims of cheating/modding etc, but instead focus on how we can help ZOS better balance the core mechanics of the game we love.

If the players throwing accusations of cheats/exploits/cheese were to run the exact same setup, would they be able to achieve the exact same results? Actually kill and outplay while being outnumbered?

Because if they can't, it just proves the bedrock issue which is they are inexperienced in the game and have a lack of understanding mechanics. The same crowd who called for nerfs to cc immunity and speed because the "other player was hacking".

SHOW · May 2020

technohic wrote: »

SHOW wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

Dude, take it easy.

He doesn't know the cheese, that's why he is having trouble naming it.

For starters he could run what you undoubtedly do:

-Stam class (one of the big 3 i assume),
-nma,
-fury,
-bloodspawn (rip),

...for pure decency I hope u don't backbar brp dw, potentate's is bad enough now (rip balance further next patch with brp, WTF zos)

Stack absurd amounts of wd to get both burst and an equally absurd amounts of "tankiness" (i.e. healing)

It's not your fault, ZOS just needs to figure out how to balance damage/tankiness/healing... they shouldn't be direct related, but decoupled. there should be choices/tradeoffs. I don't have the answers.

apologies, please don't be offended by my post, im sure you are very skilled at the game (no sarcasm. serious.)

so let's continue this discussion, not distracted by incorrect claims of cheating/modding etc, but instead focus on how we can help ZOS better balance the core mechanics of the game we love.

Decoupling heals from weapon and spell damage pushes us toward a trinity of heal, tank, DPS and ruins individual play just because people didn't like that others could build or play better than them; either case. Then there would still be good ball groups whipping larger groups and they are far more dangerous than the one guy that has a well rounded build. People would just move to complaining about them as their focus for 12 guys whipping their zerg.

Interesting perspective.

As a solo player, we do need to be careful there.

but the Trinity is kind of what this game is based on, so that would kind of make sense tho...

A player could build into damage OR heals OR tank... or blend into each at a lesser extent.

There should be tradeoffs.

Right now it is just spec into damage and you get the rest for free (generally).

Im cool coming across a nearly unkillable tank, as long as he hits like a noodle, fair tradeoff. Same for hard hitters, cool as long as they are squishy, fair tradeoff.

its fun when we can strategically attack groups: identify/ignore tanks, focus healers, burst squishy, then wear down the tank.

Pipe dreams? lol

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

SHOW wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

SHOW wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And I keep asking “WHICH SET?” and “WHICH ADDON?” And all I hear back is crickets.

Dude, take it easy.

He doesn't know the cheese, that's why he is having trouble naming it.

For starters he could run what you undoubtedly do:

-Stam class (one of the big 3 i assume),
-nma,
-fury,
-bloodspawn (rip),

...for pure decency I hope u don't backbar brp dw, potentate's is bad enough now (rip balance further next patch with brp, WTF zos)

Stack absurd amounts of wd to get both burst and an equally absurd amounts of "tankiness" (i.e. healing)

It's not your fault, ZOS just needs to figure out how to balance damage/tankiness/healing... they shouldn't be direct related, but decoupled. there should be choices/tradeoffs. I don't have the answers.

apologies, please don't be offended by my post, im sure you are very skilled at the game (no sarcasm. serious.)

so let's continue this discussion, not distracted by incorrect claims of cheating/modding etc, but instead focus on how we can help ZOS better balance the core mechanics of the game we love.

Decoupling heals from weapon and spell damage pushes us toward a trinity of heal, tank, DPS and ruins individual play just because people didn't like that others could build or play better than them; either case. Then there would still be good ball groups whipping larger groups and they are far more dangerous than the one guy that has a well rounded build. People would just move to complaining about them as their focus for 12 guys whipping their zerg.

Interesting perspective.

As a solo player, we do need to be careful there.

but the Trinity is kind of what this game is based on, so that would kind of make sense tho...

A player could build into damage OR heals OR tank... or blend into each at a lesser extent.

There should be tradeoffs.

Let me ask another question - how, some (many) players manage to build their characters, that they are doing no damage, they can't heal even themselves and they die from couple of dizzies-executes? I mean they are not dps, not healer and not tank? How this happens? Maybe problem is not in somebody's gear, but simply because game doesn't teach players anything and so they are coming to PVP totally unprepared? I don't mean impen gear, I mean that they don't know how to keep heals up, how to roll-dodge, how to block and so on?