@Starlight_KnightStarlight_Knight wrote: »Healing in pvp is a joke, this is a much needed change, although its a really lazy one.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »@BeardimusSneaky-Snurr wrote: »@MuskrapMartiniDaniels wrote: »You are absolutely wrong that it is uncalled. A lot of players are sure that healing is overpowered in PVP, and nerfing it on battle spirit level is best way to deal with it without ruining actual healing abilities.
Or do you want another round of decreased on 66%, increased by 33% like in U23-24?
Adjusting battle spirit is not the solution lol Healing pre scalebreaker was fine. The only problems were when you came across groups and the amount of cross healing that happened. Which is where they should start nerfing. Otherwise, The players that get hit the most are solo players and No CP players. But nerfing all healing recieved by 20% is definitely a bad call
Fully agree with you. Players with weak heals will be affected the most and they're easily the majority of the players in the game. They'll definitely complain for more nerfs in the future.@BeardimusSneaky-Snurr wrote: »@BeardimusDefence is too strong right now, heal bot templars bursting back up. Let's try it and see before we comment as I don't think it's a bad thing.
*scratches head*
I don't see how resistance/defence is too strong atm. Please enlighten me.
Also, is the heal bot templar in a group/pug/zerg ball? If so, it is essentially a group vs group matter. 'Templar heal bots' are only capable of healing, I'm sure their dmg isn't too strong either since most good endgame Templar healers I know use any % buff (that includes major and minor buffs) to heals and resistances wherever that may come from.
Also, you're a Sorc pet healer. Your heals are definitely huge to start with so 20% healing nerf will definitely affect you adversely.
If anything, CP should be looked at. Or maybe the Alliance War heal buff passive as a start. Not a mindless blanket nerf to heals across the board.
Defence is strong right now. As individual players it's easy to burst back to an almost full bar. Agreed they can be trolling players that are better off ignored, but honnestly it's a good thing on that front.
And yes am a pet sorc healer when in a group, again I think the nerf is manageable.
Personally I think this is better approach, reduce the impact to OP self heals, reduce the ball groups.
The only oddity is the base crit resist. Whilst I relish that and despise running full Impen on a sorc (needed since the ward nerf) it does take the edge of burst as many players underspec on court resist particular in noCP.
Now following on from that point, it means more crit resist thus less burst. And burst is what kills and out paces heals.
Honnestly I think heals needed nerfing and I'm happy with how they gone about it. Happy enough to wait and see.
All due respect to you, dear Emperor. But I still fail to see how defence is strong now just because heals are strong. Sometimes, players just need to get worn down before they can be killed. And these type of players make up a small section of the PvP community. The overwhelming majority however don't even have the firepower to have large heals to begin with.
Also, when you're in a group, the healing nerfs are obviously going to go unnoticed. I'm talking about solo and small scale situations especially in No CP environment.
Interesting, as I play small scale, and in noCP (clearly you spotted that to make the Emperor joke.
Each to their own, where I'm at heals taking a nerf is not a bad thing (that's from a DD small scaler with regards to targets, and I'm happy with it as a healer on balance) I'm also happy with how they've done it.
Let's wait an see. Burst kills in noCP, remember base crit resist is being added...
What's your personal problem? Think you aren't going to survive? Or are you a healer? Templar by any chance or vigor spammer?
This is the reason why the community is so toxic.
Do you not realise I'm not even being sarcastic or condescending towards you? You're an EP, I'm an EP. I have a sense of pride and respect whenever I come across an EP Emp (yes I'm a little bit of a nerd when it comes to the Alliance War). So that was not in any way trying to be demeaning. Apologies if it didn't give you that impression.
However back to the topic. I, again, genuinely don't see how defence is strong just because heals are. People use a different combination of % mitigation and resist buffs to effectively soak up your incoming dmg while they heal themselves on their defensive rotation. It's not unheard of.
I agree, we can wait and see how the PTS turns out. But I am hoping that those proposed changes won't go to Live because the future will only spell "more nerfs" if you let it since an overwhelming majority of players are low APM players (again, aka bad players). After this healing nerf, they'll look to cry more nerfs on the damage front because 'damage is too strong and my healing (nerfed) is too low'.
It's a never ending cycle which we have seen before, as I'm sure you have, when Battle Spirit debuff to healing/dmg etc was only 25% back then all those years back. The nerf cycle was damning.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »@Starlight_KnightStarlight_Knight wrote: »Healing in pvp is a joke, this is a much needed change, although its a really lazy one.
Group healings are a joke yes but solo heals are not especially in no-CP.
Stacking heals + CP are the problem which is why no-CP is the most balanced it's ever been. Hence both my suggestions of reduced healing from allies and/or disabling CP for Cyro and make it exclusively no-CP allround.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »
I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses...
FatherDelve wrote: »I dont know how, but there need to be a nerf of heals or mitigation or whatever. Exactly those "low APM" Player OP is talking about rotting together in Ballgzergs, installing Meridias Light to tell them where their crown is, and marauding through Cyrodil, spamming Vigor and Mutagen.
A BallGROUP was formerly a proper method to counter Zergs, nowadays every PvE Plebbo is gathering together in Ballzergs, and missing any kind of Risk vs Reward Mechanic, PvP always should have.
@BoxFoxxI think you meant to say life-consuming massive amounts of time... just thought you might want to correct that error.
Besides, that isn't true about catering to "bad players" ... Brian and his team are trying to focus on balance... They want more diversity with builds in PvP. Good players who have "theory-crafted" their sets shouldn't be upset about this. It will provide a more challenging environment. What it sounds like to me is that you prefer to smash potatoes instead of getting into an actual battle.
Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »Excerpt from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/update-26-combat-preview/p1ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »Greetings Gang!
(...)
Lastly, in this update we are making some small adjustments to Critical Resistance and Healing affecting PvP specifically. Over the years, we’ve seen healing become quite volatile in PvP with the ability to negate a high amount of damage in just 1 ability cast for many players at once. This isn’t just 1 ability that causes this type of health bar swinging, so we are making adjustments to Battlespirit which now reduces healing taken by 60% instead of 50%.
Gearing up for PvP isn’t a simple task because of the need for Critical Resistance. The other issue regarding itemization in PvP is that it’s very limiting due to the need for building Critical Resistance. This means other popular traits and builds aren’t as viable in PvP unless you’re a glass cannon or top-end player. To bring more viable stat and set combinations into PvP play, we are now granting a baseline Critical Resistance. In conjunction with that change, we are making several adjustments to item sets which grant Critical Resistance. We also are making changes to the Impenetrable trait by reducing the value.
We hope these updates enhance your day to day adventures in ESO, and we’ll see you in Tamriel! We look forward to your feedback regarding the changes above, as well as item sets and your general playtesting experience when Update 26 hits PTS next week!
I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses (simple SWOT analysis anyone?)? Do you realise that it's a 20% HEALING NERF in PvP compared to what we have now? I play in no-CP and the heals are already not too 'volatile' to start with. If you're arguing about ball groups, then large heals are to be expected and players must do well to counter groups with organised play.
Let's suppose if these changes to Battle Spirit go into Live. Do you think it's going to solve the 'volatility' of heals (I call BS for @ZOS_BrianWheeler's reasoning) players have ie. well-geared players (WG) vs. poorly-geared players (PG)? Answer is a definite NO. What it will do is nerf everyone's heals to a large degree (20% nerf!) till those PG players can't even cope to go around Cyro/BGs with at least a fighting chance to survive.
Just please @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert, do not go through with the Battle Spirit changes, please reconsider. It will not serve the whole PvP community well especially new and PG PvP-centric players. Feeling the brunt of the nerf, I'm sure the uninstall button/New World MMO is going to sound more appealing to them. Do not mess this up, ZOS.
EDIT:
Potential alternatives to the healing nerfs:
1. Through Battle Spirit, limit the number of cross heals or reduce the amount of heals by x% a player can receive from 'foreign' heal sources (ie. anything other than self-initiated heals) as others have mentioned in this thread. Maybe a limit to how many can be stacked on a player too. That will nerf zergs and ball groups effectively since there's only so much heals a player can receive.
2. CP adjustments - Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.
PizzaCat82 wrote: »1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.
Bradyfjord wrote: »This change to Battle Spirit will not change much in my opinion. 'Tankiness' will still be in play, and heals/cross heals will still be in play. The specific tuning of those things will change, but tanky-heals in pvp will remain I think.PizzaCat82 wrote: »1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.
But what if they could? Not to disagree that they should nerf overperforming items/sets/etc.
If one good player outplays a group of good players because he made the right choices does a developer team need to go in a nerf everything that one good player did?
What players who get outplayed don't see are all the times that one good player got burned down because of bad choices. This lead to the good player figuring out this one thing. It will not work forever, and then the one good player gets burned down once again.
TL:DR: In pvp, my opinion is that APM is just part of it. There are many variables to consider which leads to different choices in builds. And all of this leads to various unexpected (and expected) outcomes.
Just my 2 copper.
@PizzaCat82PizzaCat82 wrote: »Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »Excerpt from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/update-26-combat-preview/p1ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »Greetings Gang!
(...)
Lastly, in this update we are making some small adjustments to Critical Resistance and Healing affecting PvP specifically. Over the years, we’ve seen healing become quite volatile in PvP with the ability to negate a high amount of damage in just 1 ability cast for many players at once. This isn’t just 1 ability that causes this type of health bar swinging, so we are making adjustments to Battlespirit which now reduces healing taken by 60% instead of 50%.
Gearing up for PvP isn’t a simple task because of the need for Critical Resistance. The other issue regarding itemization in PvP is that it’s very limiting due to the need for building Critical Resistance. This means other popular traits and builds aren’t as viable in PvP unless you’re a glass cannon or top-end player. To bring more viable stat and set combinations into PvP play, we are now granting a baseline Critical Resistance. In conjunction with that change, we are making several adjustments to item sets which grant Critical Resistance. We also are making changes to the Impenetrable trait by reducing the value.
We hope these updates enhance your day to day adventures in ESO, and we’ll see you in Tamriel! We look forward to your feedback regarding the changes above, as well as item sets and your general playtesting experience when Update 26 hits PTS next week!
I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses (simple SWOT analysis anyone?)? Do you realise that it's a 20% HEALING NERF in PvP compared to what we have now? I play in no-CP and the heals are already not too 'volatile' to start with. If you're arguing about ball groups, then large heals are to be expected and players must do well to counter groups with organised play.
Let's suppose if these changes to Battle Spirit go into Live. Do you think it's going to solve the 'volatility' of heals (I call BS for @ZOS_BrianWheeler's reasoning) players have ie. well-geared players (WG) vs. poorly-geared players (PG)? Answer is a definite NO. What it will do is nerf everyone's heals to a large degree (20% nerf!) till those PG players can't even cope to go around Cyro/BGs with at least a fighting chance to survive.
Just please @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert, do not go through with the Battle Spirit changes, please reconsider. It will not serve the whole PvP community well especially new and PG PvP-centric players. Feeling the brunt of the nerf, I'm sure the uninstall button/New World MMO is going to sound more appealing to them. Do not mess this up, ZOS.
EDIT:
Potential alternatives to the healing nerfs:
1. Through Battle Spirit, limit the number of cross heals or reduce the amount of heals by x% a player can receive from 'foreign' heal sources (ie. anything other than self-initiated heals) as others have mentioned in this thread. Maybe a limit to how many can be stacked on a player too. That will nerf zergs and ball groups effectively since there's only so much heals a player can receive.
2. CP adjustments - Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.
1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.
@RedFireDiscoRedFireDisco wrote: »A battle spirit that reduced armor values would've fixed a lot of this tank meta.
A clear, definable decision should be made to survive damage or deal damage.
I'm fed up with it being okay that a pvp tank can absorb twice as much damage as a dps, have more regen, health and resources but still do 90% of the damage. That's beyond broken.
So what happens?
Everyone gravitates towards these builds because meta.
Either increase damage on squishy builds or reduce armor/damage on tanky ones
Yea its a trash change made for CP cyrodiil which already should have been abolished. CP doesn't work, the performance is horrendous. Get rid of CP cyrodiil.
For non-CP this is an awful change. It just further tries to prevent people from keeping themselves alive and makes BGs infinitely worse and even more beholden to getting super lucky with competent teammates.
This game goes 4 steps back for every 1 step forward.
PizzaCat82 wrote: »Bradyfjord wrote: »This change to Battle Spirit will not change much in my opinion. 'Tankiness' will still be in play, and heals/cross heals will still be in play. The specific tuning of those things will change, but tanky-heals in pvp will remain I think.PizzaCat82 wrote: »1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.
But what if they could? Not to disagree that they should nerf overperforming items/sets/etc.
If one good player outplays a group of good players because he made the right choices does a developer team need to go in a nerf everything that one good player did?
What players who get outplayed don't see are all the times that one good player got burned down because of bad choices. This lead to the good player figuring out this one thing. It will not work forever, and then the one good player gets burned down once again.
TL:DR: In pvp, my opinion is that APM is just part of it. There are many variables to consider which leads to different choices in builds. And all of this leads to various unexpected (and expected) outcomes.
Just my 2 copper.
An average player, using decent builds and having a decent awareness of skills should be able to group up in small numbers and not have to worry about 1 person taking out the entire group.
That means raising the floor, not lowering the ceiling.
Exceptions can be made for Emperors and those with Daedric weapons I suppose but in those situations its not the build that wins its the buff.
That does mean nerfs to healing.