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So, is everyone going to ignore Battle Spirit changes which is uncalled for?

  • Sneaky-Snurr
    Sneaky-Snurr
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    Healing in pvp is a joke, this is a much needed change, although its a really lazy one.
    @Starlight_Knight
    Group healings are a joke yes but solo heals are not especially in no-CP.
    Stacking heals + CP are the problem which is why no-CP is the most balanced it's ever been. Hence both my suggestions of reduced healing from allies and/or disabling CP for Cyro and make it exclusively no-CP allround.
    The Order of the Shadows: Nightmare
      EP CP810 Nightblade
      AD CP810 Templar
      AD CP810 Dragon Knight
      AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
      DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
    {PC•NA•no-CP Ravenwatch}

    Shadow hide you. -Unknown
    There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki
  • technohic
    technohic
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    I'll say it again. A flat nerf to healing across the board does not make those who heal more suddenly on level with those who heal less. They all take a step down. The advantage here goes to groups with multiple cross heals over everyone else.

  • Caelc
    Caelc
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    So,

    before it was, healing is overpowered in PVP.
    The suggestion on the board was to adjust battle spirit so it doesnt hurt pve

    Zos adjusts Healing and they do it using battle spirit

    now we have whining about hurting healing and adjusting it through battle spirit

    unbelievable.

    I understand whining, but it seems we are whining for the sake of whining.
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    Muskrap wrote: »
    You are absolutely wrong that it is uncalled. A lot of players are sure that healing is overpowered in PVP, and nerfing it on battle spirit level is best way to deal with it without ruining actual healing abilities.
    Or do you want another round of decreased on 66%, increased by 33% like in U23-24?

    Adjusting battle spirit is not the solution lol Healing pre scalebreaker was fine. The only problems were when you came across groups and the amount of cross healing that happened. Which is where they should start nerfing. Otherwise, The players that get hit the most are solo players and No CP players. But nerfing all healing recieved by 20% is definitely a bad call
    @Muskrap
    Fully agree with you. Players with weak heals will be affected the most and they're easily the majority of the players in the game. They'll definitely complain for more nerfs in the future.


    Beardimus wrote: »
    Beardimus wrote: »
    Defence is too strong right now, heal bot templars bursting back up. Let's try it and see before we comment as I don't think it's a bad thing.
    @Beardimus
    *scratches head*
    I don't see how resistance/defence is too strong atm. Please enlighten me.
    Also, is the heal bot templar in a group/pug/zerg ball? If so, it is essentially a group vs group matter. 'Templar heal bots' are only capable of healing, I'm sure their dmg isn't too strong either since most good endgame Templar healers I know use any % buff (that includes major and minor buffs) to heals and resistances wherever that may come from.
    Also, you're a Sorc pet healer. Your heals are definitely huge to start with so 20% healing nerf will definitely affect you adversely.

    If anything, CP should be looked at. Or maybe the Alliance War heal buff passive as a start. Not a mindless blanket nerf to heals across the board.

    Defence is strong right now. As individual players it's easy to burst back to an almost full bar. Agreed they can be trolling players that are better off ignored, but honnestly it's a good thing on that front.

    And yes am a pet sorc healer when in a group, again I think the nerf is manageable.

    Personally I think this is better approach, reduce the impact to OP self heals, reduce the ball groups.

    The only oddity is the base crit resist. Whilst I relish that and despise running full Impen on a sorc (needed since the ward nerf) it does take the edge of burst as many players underspec on court resist particular in noCP.

    Now following on from that point, it means more crit resist thus less burst. And burst is what kills and out paces heals.

    Honnestly I think heals needed nerfing and I'm happy with how they gone about it. Happy enough to wait and see.
    @Beardimus
    All due respect to you, dear Emperor. But I still fail to see how defence is strong now just because heals are strong. Sometimes, players just need to get worn down before they can be killed. And these type of players make up a small section of the PvP community. The overwhelming majority however don't even have the firepower to have large heals to begin with.

    Also, when you're in a group, the healing nerfs are obviously going to go unnoticed. I'm talking about solo and small scale situations especially in No CP environment.

    Interesting, as I play small scale, and in noCP (clearly you spotted that to make the Emperor joke.

    Each to their own, where I'm at heals taking a nerf is not a bad thing (that's from a DD small scaler with regards to targets, and I'm happy with it as a healer on balance) I'm also happy with how they've done it.

    Let's wait an see. Burst kills in noCP, remember base crit resist is being added...

    What's your personal problem? Think you aren't going to survive? Or are you a healer? Templar by any chance or vigor spammer?
    @Beardimus
    This is the reason why the community is so toxic.
    Do you not realise I'm not even being sarcastic or condescending towards you? You're an EP, I'm an EP. I have a sense of pride and respect whenever I come across an EP Emp (yes I'm a little bit of a nerd when it comes to the Alliance War). So that was not in any way trying to be demeaning. Apologies if it didn't give you that impression.

    However back to the topic. I, again, genuinely don't see how defence is strong just because heals are. People use a different combination of % mitigation and resist buffs to effectively soak up your incoming dmg while they heal themselves on their defensive rotation. It's not unheard of.

    I agree, we can wait and see how the PTS turns out. But I am hoping that those proposed changes won't go to Live because the future will only spell "more nerfs" if you let it since an overwhelming majority of players are low APM players (again, aka bad players). After this healing nerf, they'll look to cry more nerfs on the damage front because 'damage is too strong and my healing (nerfed) is too low'.
    It's a never ending cycle which we have seen before, as I'm sure you have, when Battle Spirit debuff to healing/dmg etc was only 25% back then all those years back. The nerf cycle was damning.

    @Sneaky-Snurr thanks for the above explanation - appricated, I thought any sarcasm was from your end - its hard to hear 'tone' on text! so thanks for that and sorry for misunderstanding. For the Pact! :)

    I think the way some heals pop just feel strong to me - thus whilst for many this nerf may be a surprise I kinda get it. You are right players that build into it suffer elsewhere but certain classes just have that ability to still damage and just keep popping their health up out of execute (which as a Sorc DD main I notice as i'm the execute)

    You make some good points there in terms of whats next - i've already seen multiple nerf sorc nerf wards threads emmerge - thus I get your point. however at least a battle spirit nerf doesnt hit PvE - and hits all classes.
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
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    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach
  • Starlight_Knight
    Starlight_Knight
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    Healing in pvp is a joke, this is a much needed change, although its a really lazy one.
    @Starlight_Knight
    Group healings are a joke yes but solo heals are not especially in no-CP.
    Stacking heals + CP are the problem which is why no-CP is the most balanced it's ever been. Hence both my suggestions of reduced healing from allies and/or disabling CP for Cyro and make it exclusively no-CP allround.



    After spending years on this game and on the forums I've never seen a suggested idea implemented into the game.
    I've never in my life seen a forum post saying 'We want perfected VMA weapons' but apparently according to ZoS we've asked for it. oO
    What we have asked for is the return of Bosmer and Argonian racial's 100s of pages of it! Pet skins, Fixes to cant mount in combat, lag issues, class / alliance change. bugs bugs bugs, you find me one person that was for class homogenisation.. you get the idea.

    Taking the conversation full circle, - am i for this implemented change to battle spirit, then yes i am, but i do believe if should be different for c.p and no c.p, but then what would be the point in cp at-all.. but this is how they roll.

    [Edit to remove bashing]
    Edited by [Deleted User] on April 20, 2020 6:16PM
  • Cronopoly
    Cronopoly
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    Just when I though I might be able to bring a Sap NB back out for some PVP...Nope :*
  • Kalik_Gold
    Kalik_Gold
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    All end game PvP at max Level of 50 should have CP.

    PvP 1-49 should be noCP.
    Main: (PvP & PvE)
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP:
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: (Specialty)
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade (Bomber)
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight (Tank)
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight (Damage)
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar (Healer)
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden (One-Bar)
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade (Thief)

    Leveling...
    Two-Big-Horns an Argonian Arcanist
    Styx of Akatosh a Goblin* Arcanist
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    ======
    Passives of another race used. (RP)
    *Breton
    **Imperial




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
    Returning player - 2017-2022, back in 25'
  • BoxFoxx
    BoxFoxx
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    I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses...

    I think you meant to say life-consuming massive amounts of time... just thought you might want to correct that error.

    Besides, that isn't true about catering to "bad players" ... Brian and his team are trying to focus on balance... They want more diversity with builds in PvP. Good players who have "theory-crafted" their sets shouldn't be upset about this. It will provide a more challenging environment. What it sounds like to me is that you prefer to smash potatoes instead of getting into an actual battle.
    Edited by BoxFoxx on April 20, 2020 3:45PM
  • FatherDelve
    FatherDelve
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    I dont know how, but there need to be a nerf of heals or mitigation or whatever. Exactly those "low APM" Player OP is talking about rotting together in Ballgzergs, installing Meridias Light to tell them where their crown is, and marauding through Cyrodil, spamming Vigor and Mutagen.

    A BallGROUP was formerly a proper method to counter Zergs, nowadays every PvE Plebbo is gathering together in Ballzergs, and missing any kind of Risk vs Reward Mechanic, PvP always should have.
  • Sneaky-Snurr
    Sneaky-Snurr
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    I dont know how, but there need to be a nerf of heals or mitigation or whatever. Exactly those "low APM" Player OP is talking about rotting together in Ballgzergs, installing Meridias Light to tell them where their crown is, and marauding through Cyrodil, spamming Vigor and Mutagen.

    A BallGROUP was formerly a proper method to counter Zergs, nowadays every PvE Plebbo is gathering together in Ballzergs, and missing any kind of Risk vs Reward Mechanic, PvP always should have.

    @FatherDelve
    First the direct 20% healing nerf now this: https://youtu.be/QkW5xIPNXOc

    Have a look at the video and tell me what you think. IMHO though, it is proper broken and OP at its highest level. If you don't have the time to watch, then let me summarise it for you:
    8.8k Spell Damage + 29k max mag (in CP) with a whopping 20k penetration. Tell me how the tank meta is such a problem before this. Potato players are gonna whine some more in the near future, mark my words. They will cry damage is too high and heals are too low by then.
    BoxFoxx wrote: »
    I think you meant to say life-consuming massive amounts of time... just thought you might want to correct that error.

    Besides, that isn't true about catering to "bad players" ... Brian and his team are trying to focus on balance... They want more diversity with builds in PvP. Good players who have "theory-crafted" their sets shouldn't be upset about this. It will provide a more challenging environment. What it sounds like to me is that you prefer to smash potatoes instead of getting into an actual battle.
    @BoxFoxx
    That's the problem. Everyone should theorycraft cause it's not even time consuming, it's part of the game to optimise builds and create niche ones. Anyone can do it so what's the excuse for potato players?

    Also, just so you wait till those same potato players you're trying to white knight for turns to the forums to cry for more nerfs to dmg because heals are low (nerfed by 20% remember?). Have a look: https://youtu.be/QkW5xIPNXOc

    It's going to be joyous, believe me.
    The Order of the Shadows: Nightmare
      EP CP810 Nightblade
      AD CP810 Templar
      AD CP810 Dragon Knight
      AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
      DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
    {PC•NA•no-CP Ravenwatch}

    Shadow hide you. -Unknown
    There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki
  • PizzaCat82
    PizzaCat82
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    Excerpt from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/update-26-combat-preview/p1
    Greetings Gang!

    (...)

    Lastly, in this update we are making some small adjustments to Critical Resistance and Healing affecting PvP specifically. Over the years, we’ve seen healing become quite volatile in PvP with the ability to negate a high amount of damage in just 1 ability cast for many players at once. This isn’t just 1 ability that causes this type of health bar swinging, so we are making adjustments to Battlespirit which now reduces healing taken by 60% instead of 50%.

    Gearing up for PvP isn’t a simple task because of the need for Critical Resistance. The other issue regarding itemization in PvP is that it’s very limiting due to the need for building Critical Resistance. This means other popular traits and builds aren’t as viable in PvP unless you’re a glass cannon or top-end player. To bring more viable stat and set combinations into PvP play, we are now granting a baseline Critical Resistance. In conjunction with that change, we are making several adjustments to item sets which grant Critical Resistance. We also are making changes to the Impenetrable trait by reducing the value.

    We hope these updates enhance your day to day adventures in ESO, and we’ll see you in Tamriel! We look forward to your feedback regarding the changes above, as well as item sets and your general playtesting experience when Update 26 hits PTS next week!

    I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses (simple SWOT analysis anyone?)? Do you realise that it's a 20% HEALING NERF in PvP compared to what we have now? I play in no-CP and the heals are already not too 'volatile' to start with. If you're arguing about ball groups, then large heals are to be expected and players must do well to counter groups with organised play.

    Let's suppose if these changes to Battle Spirit go into Live. Do you think it's going to solve the 'volatility' of heals (I call BS for @ZOS_BrianWheeler's reasoning) players have ie. well-geared players (WG) vs. poorly-geared players (PG)? Answer is a definite NO. What it will do is nerf everyone's heals to a large degree (20% nerf!) till those PG players can't even cope to go around Cyro/BGs with at least a fighting chance to survive.

    Just please @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert, do not go through with the Battle Spirit changes, please reconsider. It will not serve the whole PvP community well especially new and PG PvP-centric players. Feeling the brunt of the nerf, I'm sure the uninstall button/New World MMO is going to sound more appealing to them. Do not mess this up, ZOS.


    EDIT:
    Potential alternatives to the healing nerfs:
    1. Through Battle Spirit, limit the number of cross heals or reduce the amount of heals by x% a player can receive from 'foreign' heal sources (ie. anything other than self-initiated heals) as others have mentioned in this thread. Maybe a limit to how many can be stacked on a player too. That will nerf zergs and ball groups effectively since there's only so much heals a player can receive.

    2. CP adjustments - Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.


    1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.
  • Bradyfjord
    Bradyfjord
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    This change to Battle Spirit will not change much in my opinion. 'Tankiness' will still be in play, and heals/cross heals will still be in play. The specific tuning of those things will change, but tanky-heals in pvp will remain I think.
    PizzaCat82 wrote: »
    1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.

    But what if they could? Not to disagree that they should nerf overperforming items/sets/etc.

    If one good player outplays a group of good players because he made the right choices does a developer team need to go in a nerf everything that one good player did?

    What players who get outplayed don't see are all the times that one good player got burned down because of bad choices. This lead to the good player figuring out this one thing. It will not work forever, and then the one good player gets burned down once again.

    TL:DR: In pvp, my opinion is that APM is just part of it. There are many variables to consider which leads to different choices in builds. And all of this leads to various unexpected (and expected) outcomes.

    Just my 2 copper.
    Edited by Bradyfjord on April 24, 2020 3:41PM
  • PizzaCat82
    PizzaCat82
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    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    This change to Battle Spirit will not change much in my opinion. 'Tankiness' will still be in play, and heals/cross heals will still be in play. The specific tuning of those things will change, but tanky-heals in pvp will remain I think.
    PizzaCat82 wrote: »
    1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.

    But what if they could? Not to disagree that they should nerf overperforming items/sets/etc.

    If one good player outplays a group of good players because he made the right choices does a developer team need to go in a nerf everything that one good player did?

    What players who get outplayed don't see are all the times that one good player got burned down because of bad choices. This lead to the good player figuring out this one thing. It will not work forever, and then the one good player gets burned down once again.

    TL:DR: In pvp, my opinion is that APM is just part of it. There are many variables to consider which leads to different choices in builds. And all of this leads to various unexpected (and expected) outcomes.

    Just my 2 copper.

    An average player, using decent builds and having a decent awareness of skills should be able to group up in small numbers and not have to worry about 1 person taking out the entire group.

    That means raising the floor, not lowering the ceiling.

    Exceptions can be made for Emperors and those with Daedric weapons I suppose but in those situations its not the build that wins its the buff.

    That does mean nerfs to healing.
  • Sneaky-Snurr
    Sneaky-Snurr
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    PizzaCat82 wrote: »
    Excerpt from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/update-26-combat-preview/p1
    Greetings Gang!

    (...)

    Lastly, in this update we are making some small adjustments to Critical Resistance and Healing affecting PvP specifically. Over the years, we’ve seen healing become quite volatile in PvP with the ability to negate a high amount of damage in just 1 ability cast for many players at once. This isn’t just 1 ability that causes this type of health bar swinging, so we are making adjustments to Battlespirit which now reduces healing taken by 60% instead of 50%.

    Gearing up for PvP isn’t a simple task because of the need for Critical Resistance. The other issue regarding itemization in PvP is that it’s very limiting due to the need for building Critical Resistance. This means other popular traits and builds aren’t as viable in PvP unless you’re a glass cannon or top-end player. To bring more viable stat and set combinations into PvP play, we are now granting a baseline Critical Resistance. In conjunction with that change, we are making several adjustments to item sets which grant Critical Resistance. We also are making changes to the Impenetrable trait by reducing the value.

    We hope these updates enhance your day to day adventures in ESO, and we’ll see you in Tamriel! We look forward to your feedback regarding the changes above, as well as item sets and your general playtesting experience when Update 26 hits PTS next week!

    I don't know about you guys/gals but the above looks, smells and sounds like ZOS again catering to players with low APM a.k.a bad players, who don't even want to spend miniscule amount of time to theorycraft gearsets to better their stats by improving on their weaknesses (simple SWOT analysis anyone?)? Do you realise that it's a 20% HEALING NERF in PvP compared to what we have now? I play in no-CP and the heals are already not too 'volatile' to start with. If you're arguing about ball groups, then large heals are to be expected and players must do well to counter groups with organised play.

    Let's suppose if these changes to Battle Spirit go into Live. Do you think it's going to solve the 'volatility' of heals (I call BS for @ZOS_BrianWheeler's reasoning) players have ie. well-geared players (WG) vs. poorly-geared players (PG)? Answer is a definite NO. What it will do is nerf everyone's heals to a large degree (20% nerf!) till those PG players can't even cope to go around Cyro/BGs with at least a fighting chance to survive.

    Just please @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert, do not go through with the Battle Spirit changes, please reconsider. It will not serve the whole PvP community well especially new and PG PvP-centric players. Feeling the brunt of the nerf, I'm sure the uninstall button/New World MMO is going to sound more appealing to them. Do not mess this up, ZOS.


    EDIT:
    Potential alternatives to the healing nerfs:
    1. Through Battle Spirit, limit the number of cross heals or reduce the amount of heals by x% a player can receive from 'foreign' heal sources (ie. anything other than self-initiated heals) as others have mentioned in this thread. Maybe a limit to how many can be stacked on a player too. That will nerf zergs and ball groups effectively since there's only so much heals a player can receive.

    2. CP adjustments - Disable CP PvP. Make PvP strictly a No-CP affair. That way, a huge aspect of PvE will be left separately to that of PvP.


    1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.
    @PizzaCat82
    While I get where you're coming from but as it is, those builds are only prevalent in (you guessed it) CP PvP campaigns. In no-CP, it's not a problem at all.

    But healing is not the main factor to tankiness. Those players who can outdo 5 players at one go all credit to the crazy %-based dmg mitigation buffs from Major/Minor protection and CP buffs.
    That's where the tankiness comes from, not heals! I've already explained to another forumer here that 'tanky' players are inherently squish but they get into their defensive rotation (ie. activate major/minor protection while roll-dodging & healing at the same time) whenever they're in trouble. It's not unheard of.

    Which reminds me, I should probably bring this issue to light in the 1st post.
    The Order of the Shadows: Nightmare
      EP CP810 Nightblade
      AD CP810 Templar
      AD CP810 Dragon Knight
      AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
      DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
    {PC•NA•no-CP Ravenwatch}

    Shadow hide you. -Unknown
    There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki
  • RedFireDisco
    RedFireDisco
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    A battle spirit that reduced armor values would've fixed a lot of this tank meta.

    A clear, definable decision should be made to survive damage or deal damage.

    I'm fed up with it being okay that a pvp tank can absorb twice as much damage as a dps, have more regen, health and resources but still do 90% of the damage. That's beyond broken.

    So what happens?

    Everyone gravitates towards these builds because meta.

    Either increase damage on squishy builds or reduce armor/damage on tanky ones

  • Sneaky-Snurr
    Sneaky-Snurr
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    A battle spirit that reduced armor values would've fixed a lot of this tank meta.

    A clear, definable decision should be made to survive damage or deal damage.

    I'm fed up with it being okay that a pvp tank can absorb twice as much damage as a dps, have more regen, health and resources but still do 90% of the damage. That's beyond broken.

    So what happens?

    Everyone gravitates towards these builds because meta.

    Either increase damage on squishy builds or reduce armor/damage on tanky ones
    @RedFireDisco
    Actually, flat number armour values in Phys and Spell Resistance are barely the problem in this whole issue. It can easily be countered with penetration debuffs whose values are high enough to negate a large part of a tank's flat armour number.

    Now here's where I want everyone's attention: If you find a tank or damage dealer being too tanky, the problem really lies in the inherent %-based buffs (and also debuffs) from Major & Minor Protection in which the former gives a humongous 30% damage reduction with little to no counter to. Minor gives 8% damage reduction.
    Add to the problem with debuffs like Minor Maim which reduces damage dealt by enemies by 15% plus lots of cross healing received from allies.
    Since nerfs are the name of the game to ZOS and there are little to no counters in the game to negate these huge buffs/debuffs, then I strongly urge ZOS to at the very least consider one of or a few of my suggestion(s).

    If you're arguing that those tanky players are running solo, then just remove the cross healing received from the equation and the point still stands; %-based dmg mitigation is currently too strong with little to no counter available to render its usefulness.
    Flat armour values are the least of the problem and the counters are readily available in abundance.
    Edited by Sneaky-Snurr on April 30, 2020 4:26AM
    The Order of the Shadows: Nightmare
      EP CP810 Nightblade
      AD CP810 Templar
      AD CP810 Dragon Knight
      AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
      DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
    {PC•NA•no-CP Ravenwatch}

    Shadow hide you. -Unknown
    There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki
  • universal_wrath
    universal_wrath
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    Jakx wrote: »
    Yea its a trash change made for CP cyrodiil which already should have been abolished. CP doesn't work, the performance is horrendous. Get rid of CP cyrodiil.

    For non-CP this is an awful change. It just further tries to prevent people from keeping themselves alive and makes BGs infinitely worse and even more beholden to getting super lucky with competent teammates.

    This game goes 4 steps back for every 1 step forward.

    Adjust healing buffs like major mending to do 16-20% instead of 25%. Adjust dmg mitigation like major protection from 30% to 20-24%. Adjust healing skills that were clearly doing more than they should for their low cost/requirements.

    Some classes can make a simple 15k vigor go up to 25k while other classes can barely make it reach 17k same with regeneration too. Some classes can have almost up to 45% dmg mitigation while others barely reach 8%. This issue is not healing related but class balance.

    Making changes like this will not hurt the little ones as much as it will mainly affect the big guys.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    PizzaCat82 wrote: »
    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    This change to Battle Spirit will not change much in my opinion. 'Tankiness' will still be in play, and heals/cross heals will still be in play. The specific tuning of those things will change, but tanky-heals in pvp will remain I think.
    PizzaCat82 wrote: »
    1 Player shouldn't be able to ruin the game for 5 no matter how much time he's "Theorycrafted" and worked on his APM. I will always stand by this.

    But what if they could? Not to disagree that they should nerf overperforming items/sets/etc.

    If one good player outplays a group of good players because he made the right choices does a developer team need to go in a nerf everything that one good player did?

    What players who get outplayed don't see are all the times that one good player got burned down because of bad choices. This lead to the good player figuring out this one thing. It will not work forever, and then the one good player gets burned down once again.

    TL:DR: In pvp, my opinion is that APM is just part of it. There are many variables to consider which leads to different choices in builds. And all of this leads to various unexpected (and expected) outcomes.

    Just my 2 copper.

    An average player, using decent builds and having a decent awareness of skills should be able to group up in small numbers and not have to worry about 1 person taking out the entire group.

    That means raising the floor, not lowering the ceiling.

    Exceptions can be made for Emperors and those with Daedric weapons I suppose but in those situations its not the build that wins its the buff.

    That does mean nerfs to healing.

    If a group gets 1v5:d, they're not decent/avarage players. It's self explanatory.
  • JinxxND
    JinxxND
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    There are so many smart way to go about these changes rather then blanket changes that are coming and will end up further imbalancing the game and the pvp. With battle spirit active they could simply cap the healing received from outside sources to a certain number example you can only get healing from 2-3 outside sources which would not only help alleviate the tank meta in both CP and non CP without screwing classes over by nerfing healing by 20% it would also help with the performance of the game by not having to make nearly as many calculations which is leading to the terrible performance and downward spiral in pvp performance

    The crit resistance is going to make the tank meta worse and I've already listed why in posts but zos doesn't seem to understand the game maybe because its a different combat team that doesn't really play the game and understand what is causing the terrible metas.

    Its just crazy to see changes that keep happening when literally ANY experienced player who understands how the game works can see the huge new problems that will be created and when you voice the concerns and reason of why these changes will negatively impact the game it falls on deaf ears of zos studios
    PC NA -
    'Jinxx - Nightblade
    'Jinxx X Necromancer
  • technohic
    technohic
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    I think everyone is on the right track with the buffs to damage reduction and maim rather than armor and healing being too much; but I'm not sure they dont realize that.

    Them doing this through battle spirit, and buffing balorg to less weapon damage but more pen, and the new set with 11k penetration tells me that they want to shorten time to kill in PVP but not PVE. That kind of penetration is not really help in PVE where you are over penetrating. They either think the monster helms are not as important to PVE tanking or healing needs to be more important there.

    What I dont think they are accounting for is this hurts smaller groups and people who just play their characters as self efficient as possible and just adds more separation to those who take a role, stack together, and take advantage of constant purges to never be stunned, poor targeting to where 1 target can never be focused, and already being overhealed beyond their missing health.
    Edited by technohic on April 30, 2020 10:58AM
  • JinxxND
    JinxxND
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    They constantly create new problems by changing how original mechanics work for no reason which blows my mind. The block change patch they added has created so many problems with targeting and skills having 2 checks before they actually go off as where before it was only one check which is also adding to server stress and why the game is having further performance issues and bugs.
    PC NA -
    'Jinxx - Nightblade
    'Jinxx X Necromancer
  • WhitePawPrints
    WhitePawPrints
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    ZoS has an incredible record of “addressing” issues that dramatically change gameplay for everyone except those who used the exploit/overpowered builds and abilities.

    Two prime examples are the nerf to AoE and the nerf to Veteran NPCs. These two blanket nerds dramatically changed gameplay but did nothing to solve the issues (of some NPC combinations being much stronger than normal, and the PvP trains [which benefited greatly from the nerf]). These both were implemented within the first few months of the games life.

    Since then we’ve seen blanket nerfs like these all over the place. They’re easy to do, require minimal effort and fix nothing and often makes the issues worse (as in the case of this nerf). ZoS to spend minimal resources in their game and charge maximum prices. That’s all it is for them, money. They care little about actually improving the game. Just satisfy the whiners so they spend money.
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