Your tutorial isn't teaching people anything...

Sergykid · April 2020

i actually want pugs to be taught to not just light attack spam and use food. Interrupting or dodging are required but in a small portion of a dungeon, while spamming light attacks and not having food affect the entire dungeon experience of others.

phaneub17_ESO · April 2020

I would think people who are over 1000cp wouldn't have done the current tutorial unless they made a fresh alt to do so. As far as I can remember none of the first 3 openers taught you anything about blocking, interrupts, or dodging like the Kitty Cat land does.

Wing · April 2020

I would also like to point out the inconsistency of mechanics and counters.

some stuff can be interrupted, some stuff cannot, some stuff can be dodged, some cannot, some stuff you can block, others you cannot.

its impossible to tell sometimes what you can or cannot do to counter a situation until you die to it a few times.

this isn't like dark souls or bloodborne where there is consistent mechanics to master.

Major_Lag · April 2020

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I would think people who are over 1000cp wouldn't have done the current tutorial unless they made a fresh alt to do so. As far as I can remember none of the first 3 openers taught you anything about blocking, interrupts, or dodging like the Kitty Cat land does.

The Summerset tutorial also covered interrupts, and that has been released sufficiently long ago that it's perfectly possible for some players to have reached 1000CP since then.

Dusk_Coven · April 2020

Sergykid wrote: »

i actually want pugs to be taught to not just light attack spam and use food.

There's food in the game world and you are likely to pick it up at some point or come into contact with it. At that point, the tooltip would say something about the food. If they ignore that, it's a learn-to-read issue.
This game isn't like Brutal Legend where there are literally no stats to read and you only get flavour text and what feedback the game gives you. Players are expected to do some reading. Before they throw something away or sell it, wouldn't it make sense to actually first know what it is?
It's a similar problem to Ice Staff HA taunt. At the time they bought the passive skill -- didn't they read it? Otherwise why are they buying it?

But it seems new players seem more likely to increase their health attribute to compensate because that makes more sense to them. And why not? food is something you eat to satisfy hunger, not fortify yourself into a superman well beyond what you are normally capable of. It's not immediately something someone would connect to the use of food.

That said it wouldn't hurt to start players with a loaf of bread, a wedge of cheese, and some generic beverage from their Alliance zone, all in their inventory.

IsharaMeradin · April 2020

How about two new short tutorials built right into the game? When players enter one of the arenas for the first time and when players sign up for the undaunted pledges for the first time. In the arenas have them enter a portal to a special arena where they will get a "practice round" and be shown the various mechanics that they will need to work through. For undaunted, send them to a small dungeon with three undaunted NPCs filling out their team and cover the most common mechanics as they fight some trash and one boss.

These would be required to complete before unlocking access to all arenas and / or group dungeons. Not designed to be a measure of damage, healing or ability to hold aggro but rather a demonstration and reminding of blocking, bashing, interrupting, dodge rolling, synergy using, etc

It would be hoped that a player would have done either or both before tackling a trial, but it might not hurt to require one there as well so long as neither of the other two had been completed previously.

pieratsos · April 2020

Tandor wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Q_Q wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

How is this a tutorial problem?

How is it not? Do you know what tutorial means?

The tutorial in this game literally makes you interrupt a cast 3 times in a row. Then as soon as people leave the tutorial they forget how to interrupt. Clearly the tutorial isn't getting the job done.

A tutorial is intended to help a new player get into the game, not instruct them in the finer points of endgame or even grouping.

Moreover, you blame the tutorial for players not being able to interrupt, and then you state that the tutorial shows people how to interrupt but they then forget that.

It's threads like this that remind me why I solo.

Interrupting is a basic mechanic of the game, not end game...

I did mention grouping. As others have said, it's otherwise by and large not needed, which is why players end up not knowing how to do it. In any event, it is as you say included in the tutorial, and if it's as important as you claim as a basic mechanic of the game then people wouldn't forget it.

When was the last time you needed to interrupt anything else than a world boss in overland content? Probably never, especially if you haven't been playing since beta (after 1T dropped "veteran zones" and all that).

In normal, basegame dungeons? Only a select few of them have any boss mechanics which kinda need to be interrupted and can't be simply DPS burned/nuked through.

And then the players progress to vet content (or the harder DLC normals), and then there's suddenly a need to interrupt - which they have most likely never needed to before, not since they finished the tutorial.
It does not take a rocket... err, Dwemer construct scientist to see where the root of the problem lies.

Precisely my point when I said "it's otherwise by and large not needed".

When there are mechanics specific to endgame raids and other vet content that aren't used previously in the game, then it's really down to the guilds running those events to lead their members through those mechanics, it's not for the tutorial which is simply introducing new players to the early basics of the game.

Simple vet dungeons isn't exactly end game content and interrupt isn't an end game mechanic. It's a basic game mechanic. The guild's job is to inform you about the specific mechanics of the content you are about to do. Not to teach you how to block interrupt and roll dodge. That's the developer's job. If you are going to introduce new players to the basics of the game then its obvious that your content needs to respect those basics. Overland doesn't require any of those basics and that's the problem.

Dusk_Coven · April 2020

IsharaMeradin wrote: »

How about two new short tutorials built right into the game? When players enter one of the arenas for the first time and when players sign up for the undaunted pledges for the first time. In the arenas have them enter a portal to a special arena where they will get a "practice round" and be shown the various mechanics that they will need to work through. For undaunted, send them to a small dungeon with three undaunted NPCs filling out their team and cover the most common mechanics as they fight some trash and one boss.

Or make solo dungeons. When they actually get sent by the Undaunted to check out a dungeon, instead of the 4-man regular, they go into the solo. When they have a hard time, that's when they start learning things. Like eating crusty bread or using potions.
And solo you have to do all roles so you understand all roles better when you do a 4-man with distinct roles.
And since the solo would parallel the regular 4-man normal, when they do a 4-man they already sort of know the mechanics.

It's a natural progression except with the solo step you can't get carried. You can't not learn anything and you'll have the chance to do more than light attack instead of chasing after a bunch of CP toons rushing through it.

A_Silverius · April 2020

The tutorial does cover the basic, but the overland questing is too easy so players don't practice what they learnt in the tutorial like dodging and interrupts.

Draxys · April 2020

barney2525 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity...

When you went to your first job and they gave you a tutorial do you remember everything that was in it?

Or did you actually Learn the job by working with others, on the job ?

This comparison seems clever at a glance, but actually doesn’t really encapsulate the situation. Most jobs are nowhere near as vast and complex as this game is. Certainly not “first” jobs. Most jobs also do not have instances of hundreds of employees next to you that are just as clueless as you. That comparison would require most of ESO’s playerbase to have a competent grasp on everything in the game, and they don’t.

Major_Lag · April 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But it seems new players seem more likely to increase their health attribute to compensate because that makes more sense to them. And why not? food is something you eat to satisfy hunger, not fortify yourself into a superman well beyond what you are normally capable of. It's not immediately something someone would connect to the use of food.

This touches on another very important issue: so many players don't use any food/drink at all. You can easily see that if you have a buff tracking addon.
Again, there are several issues at play here:

1. It's not covered in the tutorial.
All it would take is for the tutorial NPC to give the player a food item and say "you must be hungry and weak after <insert previous events here>, eat this - it will make you stronger", or something along these lines.

2. It's very non-intuitive.
There is no hunger/thirst mechanic in ESO. This is not Fallout NV Hardcore mode, or anything of that sort.
Food/drink items functioned very differently in previous ES games, which might also confuse some players.
Food buffs don't stack with drink buffs, even though it logically makes sense that they should. (I'm not arguing that they should stack, because that would cause balance issues; I'm just stating the facts as they are)
The connection between the size of stamina/magicka pool and the character's damage/healing output is also non-intuitive - especially in the case of "rule breaker" abilities like Sorc shields and pets, which scale exclusively off of max magicka and not off of spell damage.
If a player dies often, the intuitive thing to do is to invest into max health and/or health recovery to help with that - which is actually the worst possible way of dealing with that problem, unless you are playing a tank.

3. There's no reinforcement.
Probably the simplest solution would be to add some kind of reminder message if a player tries to enter a dungeon/trial without any food/drink buff active.

VaranisArano · April 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

i actually want pugs to be taught to not just light attack spam and use food.

There's food in the game world and you are likely to pick it up at some point or come into contact with it. At that point, the tooltip would say something about the food. If they ignore that, it's a learn-to-read issue.
This game isn't like Brutal Legend where there are literally no stats to read and you only get flavour text and what feedback the game gives you. Players are expected to do some reading. Before they throw something away or sell it, wouldn't it make sense to actually first know what it is?
It's a similar problem to Ice Staff HA taunt. At the time they bought the passive skill -- didn't they read it? Otherwise why are they buying it?

But it seems new players seem more likely to increase their health attribute to compensate because that makes more sense to them. And why not? food is something you eat to satisfy hunger, not fortify yourself into a superman well beyond what you are normally capable of. It's not immediately something someone would connect to the use of food.

That said it wouldn't hurt to start players with a loaf of bread, a wedge of cheese, and some generic beverage from their Alliance zone, all in their inventory.

As someone who didn't discover the wonderful benefits of food until I had several vet ranks, it happens. I hd even fully leveled provisioning before I started using food. Honestly the best thing ZOS ever did to get new players to use food is to throw it at them in the daily log in rewards.

As for the Trifocus passive, I tend to assume that most leveling characters grabbed that passive while using a fire or lightning staff. Then they get an ice staff while leveling and are like WTF once they get aggro. Alternatively, the taunt is another mechanic that doesn't matter unless they are trying to do a WB or dungeon, so they might not have even thought about it - very similar to how interrupts are pretty ignorable in overland content.

daemonios · April 2020

Major_Lag wrote: »

The problem isn't with the tutorial as such - it does, in fact, cover the basic defensive mechanics in ESO (dodging, blocking, interrupting).

IMO the problem is that these mechanics are completely irrelevant in the majority of overland content, so most players tend to forget that they are even a thing.
Who will remember about interrupting casters, when there is never a need to do so in overland (not counting the WBs)?

Interrupting didn't use to be irrelevant in overland. If you tried to go to Craglorn you would quickly learn to look and listen to cues that certain attacks were incoming, and bash or dodge accordingly. Same with higher VR zones. So the problem was the enormous nerf to overland content. If people were able to play "ESO classic", I think many would be shocked at the difference.

Dusk_Coven · April 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

As someone who didn't discover the wonderful benefits of food until I had several vet ranks, it happens. I hd even fully leveled provisioning before I started using food. Honestly the best thing ZOS ever did to get new players to use food is to throw it at them in the daily log in rewards.

As for the Trifocus passive, I tend to assume that most leveling characters grabbed that passive while using a fire or lightning staff. Then they get an ice staff while leveling and are like WTF once they get aggro. Alternatively, the taunt is another mechanic that doesn't matter unless they are trying to do a WB or dungeon, so they might not have even thought about it - very similar to how interrupts are pretty ignorable in overland content.

Still a learn-to-read problem. Didn't read, too bad.
There's a huge learn-to-read problem in the demographic. Just watch zone chat at the start of every event. They can't even be bothered to read ZOS announcements that show up in the launcher or in their face trying to give them the quest starter when they log in.

Players have to meet ZOS part way.

What would REALLY work in place of any tutorial or in-game announcement is the make a ZOS twitch stream. On certain days, make it the ONLY stream that gives out twitch drops.
Then you can deliver all sorts of info blurbs and people probably have a 1-in-3 chance of getting it.

FierceSam · April 2020

I agree that the various entry tutorials ZOS provides are fundamentally valueless.

They barely explain the basic mechanics of the game and are delivered at a point when most new players aren’t actually interested in anything other than the absolute basics. The vast majority want to get through the tutorial and start doing things... and when they get to a point when they might really benefit from learning about interrupt, break free, bash, dodge etc, ZOS provide absolutely no constructive guidance whatsoever.

Rather than massively complicate the entry tutorial, ZOS should keep it simple, Light Attack, Heavy Attack and skills use. Then at a more appropriate point (say level 10) provide a more detailed, replayable tutorial or tutorials showing players how to do things like bash, block, weave etc. They could provide them as part of the Fighters or Mages guilds environments and link them into the story quests not as roadblocks but as enhancements.

Ultimately, players will only become proficient with techniques and skills if they understand them and have the opportunity to practice them (ideally with some element of constructive feedback to improve performance). Currently ZOS provide none.

Turelus · April 2020

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

Pretty sure all the tutorials since release teach people how to interrupt.

VaranisArano · April 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As someone who didn't discover the wonderful benefits of food until I had several vet ranks, it happens. I hd even fully leveled provisioning before I started using food. Honestly the best thing ZOS ever did to get new players to use food is to throw it at them in the daily log in rewards.

As for the Trifocus passive, I tend to assume that most leveling characters grabbed that passive while using a fire or lightning staff. Then they get an ice staff while leveling and are like WTF once they get aggro. Alternatively, the taunt is another mechanic that doesn't matter unless they are trying to do a WB or dungeon, so they might not have even thought about it - very similar to how interrupts are pretty ignorable in overland content.

Still a learn-to-read problem. Didn't read, too bad.
There's a huge learn-to-read problem in the demographic. Just watch zone chat at the start of every event. They can't even be bothered to read ZOS announcements that show up in the launcher or in their face trying to give them the quest starter when they log in.

Players have to meet ZOS part way.

What would REALLY work in place of any tutorial or in-game announcement is the make a ZOS twitch stream. On certain days, make it the ONLY stream that gives out twitch drops.
Then you can deliver all sorts of info blurbs and people probably have a 1-in-3 chance of getting it.

Oh, its absolutely a learn2read issue. Its just a very understandable L2Read issue, particularly in the case of the ice staff Trifocus passive.

That's really the point I've been making.
Yeah, not using basic gameplay mechanics is a L2Play issue.
Its also an understandable L2Play issue, given that ESO teaches them in the tutorial and then doesn't reinforce using them in overland content because questing is so darn easy.
By the time you need it, its like that one math skill you learned right before summer and now the teacher is like "What do you mean, "I don't remember"? We learned this just last year..."

And I can only assume that the Twitch suggestion isn't serious. Tutorials and in-game tool-tips are available to 100% of the players, even if players ignore them, forget them, or misunderstand them. Twitch isn't. At best, it might be a teaching supplement for the relatively small portion of the playerbase who actually pays attention to the reward streams. So it might be worth doing, but to replace the in game methods? That's a bad idea.

Major_Lag · April 2020

VaranisArano wrote: »

And I can only assume that the Twitch suggestion isn't serious. Tutorials and in-game tool-tips are available to 100% of the players, even if players ignore them, forget them, or misunderstand them. Twitch isn't. At best, it might be a teaching supplement for the relatively small portion of the playerbase who actually pays attention to the reward streams. So it might be worth doing, but to replace the in game methods? That's a bad idea.

And while we are on that subject: it would be awesome if the "NPC guilds" (Fighters', Mages', Thieves', Undaunted) actually offered in-game training exercises pertaining to their area of expertise:

FG: usage of stamina weapons and stamina abilities, how to effectively utilize the magicka pool on stamina builds,
MG: usage of magicka weapons and magicka abilities, also the importance of stamina management on magicka builds,
TG: effective noncombat usage of stealth, avoiding or escaping NPC guards, etc.,
Undaunted: the importance of roles in group content, how to perform effectively in each of the roles, also about synergies and group resource management in general.

(edit: oops, spelling)

Kiralyn2000 · April 2020

pieratsos wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Q_Q wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

How is this a tutorial problem?

How is it not? Do you know what tutorial means?

The tutorial in this game literally makes you interrupt a cast 3 times in a row. Then as soon as people leave the tutorial they forget how to interrupt. Clearly the tutorial isn't getting the job done.

A tutorial is intended to help a new player get into the game, not instruct them in the finer points of endgame or even grouping.

Moreover, you blame the tutorial for players not being able to interrupt, and then you state that the tutorial shows people how to interrupt but they then forget that.

It's threads like this that remind me why I solo.

Interrupting is a basic mechanic of the game, not end game...

I did mention grouping. As others have said, it's otherwise by and large not needed, which is why players end up not knowing how to do it. In any event, it is as you say included in the tutorial, and if it's as important as you claim as a basic mechanic of the game then people wouldn't forget it.

When was the last time you needed to interrupt anything else than a world boss in overland content? Probably never, especially if you haven't been playing since beta (after 1T dropped "veteran zones" and all that).

In normal, basegame dungeons? Only a select few of them have any boss mechanics which kinda need to be interrupted and can't be simply DPS burned/nuked through.

And then the players progress to vet content (or the harder DLC normals), and then there's suddenly a need to interrupt - which they have most likely never needed to before, not since they finished the tutorial.
It does not take a rocket... err, Dwemer construct scientist to see where the root of the problem lies.

Precisely my point when I said "it's otherwise by and large not needed".

When there are mechanics specific to endgame raids and other vet content that aren't used previously in the game, then it's really down to the guilds running those events to lead their members through those mechanics, it's not for the tutorial which is simply introducing new players to the early basics of the game.

Simple vet dungeons isn't exactly end game content...

Hmm, based on what I've read on this forum (complaints from pugs/complaints about pugs/"don't let people queue unless they pass a test"/etc), as well as by their name, I would think that "Veteran Dungeons" would be 1) not simple, and 2) endgame content.

(i.e, just because skilled groups get to the point of breezing through them on "farm status", doesn't make hardmode dungeons/raids/trials 'not endgame'. There may be a hierarchy of vet dungeon > DLC vet > trial > DLC trial > etc, but they're still all 'endgame' even if you only think it's hard above tier 3.)

Everest_Lionheart · April 2020

Character building is another thing all together as well. And the recommendations the game game gives you as skills can lead you a bit sideways too.

I stared out as a mag warden and was building based on the skills advisor each time I was leveling up or getting points. Some of the skills they were recommending were difficult to use and there was no mention of where to put attribute points.

So what I did was tried to make some sort of hybrid. A sword wielding, shield carrying, ice wielding, minor healing mag warden that ended up using a flame or lightning staff 80% of the time. I was balanced in magicka, health and stamina and used a mix of skills so that I could manage rss, and invested attribute point skewed to wards magicka but also put in the other two areas to balance.

Then I read that the jack of all trades approach is literally the way not to play the game. Got into a guild, got some guidance, researched builds, found one I liked (DW/Bow stam warden) and switched to it. The game has been mostly EZ mode ever since.

Other RPG you could Be that utility player built to take on anything solo, but here to need to specialize a bit and at minimum participate in a bit of group content even if it’s running delves and dolemans with a few fandoms. You still have freedom to be that all around character if you choose, but it’s a way harder battle that way.

Specializing comes with its own unique set of challenges though. Food/drink/potions become a must there are no two ways about it. You’ll need every buff you can get to compensate or overcompensate for your weakness. It’s kind of like forced choice like you get with regards to the skills you are using and certain NPC that have to die along the way to progress the story.

The more you specialize the more you have to follow certain mechanics and the faster you realize this the better. Unfortunately the game does not lead you down this path, and that is a good thing to some and bad to others. Less hand holding is good for more hardcore players and is a better immersion experience, more guided gameplay is better to increase player base and new player retention. So it’s a tricky line to walk but you have to think it’s just the way ZOS intended.

Xebov · April 2020

kargen27 wrote: »

The problem is players would rather sprint through dungeons ignoring all mechanics to get to the final boss quick as possible instead of taking the time to help new players learn.

The problem is players dont want advice and dont act on advice. So its usually a waste of time.

When i farmed UG for a week i took my time and explained the fire chamber to ~65% of my groups. On average it took 2-3 treis before ppl even started to follow my advice. The average player has zero situational awareness and doesnt want to improve and learn. Spindle 1 and Fungal 1 vet HM proof this every time they are pledges.

Same goes with bad DDs. No matter how nice i tell them that they have to improve their builds to progress ~90% are instantly offended because its unthinkable for them that whatever crap they build together is not good enought for end game content.

So how do you want to train players that unwilling to learn?

Bradyfjord · April 2020

barney2525 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity...

When you went to your first job and they gave you a tutorial do you remember everything that was in it?

Or did you actually Learn the job by working with others, on the job ?

Haha. Been there done that. Watched a video describing our inventory process containing 50 or so steps. Then learn how it's actually done there's 3 steps. 😁

What we learn and what we apply are often different.

alanmatillab16_ESO · April 2020

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

There is nothing wrong with the tutorial, it shows you exactly how to use those abilities the problem lies in the fact that you don't need to use them while levelling so by the time instances come round you are out of the habit. Combine that with players that won't want to "waste a GCD" because it will harm their precious damage parses and you are on a loser.

alanmatillab16_ESO · April 2020

Xebov wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

The problem is players would rather sprint through dungeons ignoring all mechanics to get to the final boss quick as possible instead of taking the time to help new players learn.

The problem is players dont want advice and dont act on advice. So its usually a waste of time.

When i farmed UG for a week i took my time and explained the fire chamber to ~65% of my groups. On average it took 2-3 treis before ppl even started to follow my advice. The average player has zero situational awareness and doesnt want to improve and learn. Spindle 1 and Fungal 1 vet HM proof this every time they are pledges.

Same goes with bad DDs. No matter how nice i tell them that they have to improve their builds to progress ~90% are instantly offended because its unthinkable for them that whatever crap they build together is not good enought for end game content.

So how do you want to train players that unwilling to learn?

If you want groups with optimum builds, rotations etc then join a guild or form your own group from friends or players you know. A random group is just that, random. Don't try and force builds onto people even with "friendly advice".

Sergykid · April 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

i actually want pugs to be taught to not just light attack spam and use food.

There's food in the game world and you are likely to pick it up at some point or come into contact with it. At that point, the tooltip would say something about the food. If they ignore that, it's a learn-to-read issue.

since u didn't understand,

to be taught the importance of food in veteran content (at least)

Malmai · April 2020

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

Nono they have to put in tutorial animation canceling and weaving and stuff like that if its part of the game now... But the thing is i guess they dont know how to do it by themselves lol

imagine staff doin some hardcore ac and weave

that would be a sight. But surely they can weave that crown store

MLGProPlayer · April 2020

Most people hold sprint in combat which drains their stamina. Or they dodge excessively. They may want to bash, but they don't have the stamina.

pieratsos · April 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Q_Q wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

How is this a tutorial problem?

How is it not? Do you know what tutorial means?

The tutorial in this game literally makes you interrupt a cast 3 times in a row. Then as soon as people leave the tutorial they forget how to interrupt. Clearly the tutorial isn't getting the job done.

A tutorial is intended to help a new player get into the game, not instruct them in the finer points of endgame or even grouping.

Moreover, you blame the tutorial for players not being able to interrupt, and then you state that the tutorial shows people how to interrupt but they then forget that.

It's threads like this that remind me why I solo.

Interrupting is a basic mechanic of the game, not end game...

I did mention grouping. As others have said, it's otherwise by and large not needed, which is why players end up not knowing how to do it. In any event, it is as you say included in the tutorial, and if it's as important as you claim as a basic mechanic of the game then people wouldn't forget it.

When was the last time you needed to interrupt anything else than a world boss in overland content? Probably never, especially if you haven't been playing since beta (after 1T dropped "veteran zones" and all that).

In normal, basegame dungeons? Only a select few of them have any boss mechanics which kinda need to be interrupted and can't be simply DPS burned/nuked through.

And then the players progress to vet content (or the harder DLC normals), and then there's suddenly a need to interrupt - which they have most likely never needed to before, not since they finished the tutorial.
It does not take a rocket... err, Dwemer construct scientist to see where the root of the problem lies.

Precisely my point when I said "it's otherwise by and large not needed".

When there are mechanics specific to endgame raids and other vet content that aren't used previously in the game, then it's really down to the guilds running those events to lead their members through those mechanics, it's not for the tutorial which is simply introducing new players to the early basics of the game.

Simple vet dungeons isn't exactly end game content...

Hmm, based on what I've read on this forum (complaints from pugs/complaints about pugs/"don't let people queue unless they pass a test"/etc), as well as by their name, I would think that "Veteran Dungeons" would be 1) not simple, and 2) endgame content.

(i.e, just because skilled groups get to the point of breezing through them on "farm status", doesn't make hardmode dungeons/raids/trials 'not endgame'. There may be a hierarchy of vet dungeon > DLC vet > trial > DLC trial > etc, but they're still all 'endgame' even if you only think it's hard above tier 3.)

I don't really consider vet fungal grotto for example as end game content cause quite frankly it's easier than normal dlc dungeons but thats not really the point.

The point is that it's not the guild's job to teach you how to block dodge or interrupt. And if you want to consider all vet dungs as end game content then that makes it even worse. It's quite frankly ridiculous to say that it's a guild's job to teach the basics of the game when attempting to do end game content

AlnilamE · April 2020

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Still a learn-to-read problem. Didn't read, too bad.
There's a huge learn-to-read problem in the demographic. Just watch zone chat at the start of every event. They can't even be bothered to read ZOS announcements that show up in the launcher or in their face trying to give them the quest starter when they log in.

I personally only start the launcher on patch days. Otherwise, I have a desktop shortcut for the exe.

I do get my announcements via the site.

idk · April 2020

Turelus wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

Pretty sure all the tutorials since release teach people how to interrupt.

They do. I double-checked Elswere's yesterday.

As I stated previously, OP has not drawn a cause and effect between the tutorial and some CP capped players not knowing how to interrupt. It makes no sense. Further, even if Zos changed the tutorial to where we have to interrupt a dozen times to finish it does not mean that players inept at playing the game well remember how to interrupt any more than they do now.