Your tutorial isn't teaching people anything...

xXMeowMeowXx

AinSoph wrote: »

It's really funny that people defend the tutorial but after you complete it once, people will just skip it upon making yet another character. You can't just cater to casuals, ignore the veterans of the game, and wonder why there is a skill gap.

Ummmm, they have been ignoring long time players as policy now silly.

We know how the game should play and they already have our money. New players complain less and are fresh money ‘cha ching we don’t matter’ :'(

There should be a large skill gap imo.

Simply put, if someone has put years into learning and perfecting their craft, they should be far better than a novice.

Everest_Lionheart

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Why isn't interrupt a single click of the right button?

IMO on PC, holding the right button should be block, clicking the right button should be interrupt.

The way they have it set up takes holding the right, then clicking the left. Doesn't make sense.

You should try console life. 2 buttons for bash that you also have to hold. Also 2 buttons for ultimate and synergy attacks as well and they are easy to miss if you don’t hit them perfectly so you’ll get one of your assigned skills instead of your ultimate or synergy. The block/bash is fairly intuitive but there is a delay. You have plenty of time to react in game still because the windup is telegraphed.

Then you get all of those multi presses with dpad operations as well. Bar swap is there and in the heat of battle sometimes you’ll burn a potion or change perspective instead or do 2/3 operations at the same time. That also means you’ll be taking your thumb off the movement joystick and in the heat of battle losing your 3rd person view takes another press to reset and can cost you.

Major_Lag

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

There should be a large skill gap imo.

Simply put, if someone has put years into learning and perfecting their craft, they should be far better than a novice.

But maybe the skill gap shouldn't be SO large that the average player doesn't even know (nor needs to perform) the game's most basic mechanics.

Also, when a relatively new player does less than 1/10th the damage of a veteran player, then maybe the skill gap is just TOO large for the game's health.

Don't get me wrong, there absolutely should be a skill gap.
But IMO the skill gap should exist in the form of an advanced understanding of how the game works on a high level (builds, rotations, weaving, etc.), and not in the form of "ME TOO STOOPID TO PUSH BUTTONZ".
(edit: spelling)

robertthebard

Major_Lag wrote: »

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

There should be a large skill gap imo.

Simply put, if someone has put years into learning and perfecting their craft, they should be far better than a novice.

But maybe the skill gap shouldn't be SO large that the average player doesn't even know (nor needs to perform) the game's most basic mechanics.

Also, when a relatively new player does less than 1/10th the damage of a veteran player, then maybe the skill gap is just TOO large for the game's health.

Don't get me wrong, there absolutely should be a skill gap.
But IMO the skill gap should exist in the form of an advanced understanding of how the game works on a high level (builds, rotations, weaving, etc.), and not in the form of "ME TOO STOOPID TO PUSH BUTTONZ".
(edit: spelling)

Puts on best William Shatner impersonation:

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly? Then you go on to lay out a reason why a vet might very well lay out more damage, if not 10x the damage as you claim. I spoke about this earlier, but this is more hyperbole as argument than facts as argument, and really doesn't help further any causes.

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build? Are they really not using basic skills such as interrupts and dodge rolls? Or is this stuff that has to be insinuated because the OP died in some content, and it surely can't be their fault? I mean, I'm like 90/10 for using bash on my thief. If you caught me in that one time out of 10 I didn't interrupt, would I then be qualified for the "never uses basic skills"?

Mancombe_Nosehair

I only really started to learn basic mechanics when I converted from healing to tanking, after needing 4 attempts at other people "tanking" during sc2 normal.

Prior to that, I did wonder why I kept on dying to bosses on overland quests.

daemonios

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

There should be a large skill gap imo.

Simply put, if someone has put years into learning and perfecting their craft, they should be far better than a novice.

But maybe the skill gap shouldn't be SO large that the average player doesn't even know (nor needs to perform) the game's most basic mechanics.

Also, when a relatively new player does less than 1/10th the damage of a veteran player, then maybe the skill gap is just TOO large for the game's health.

Don't get me wrong, there absolutely should be a skill gap.
But IMO the skill gap should exist in the form of an advanced understanding of how the game works on a high level (builds, rotations, weaving, etc.), and not in the form of "ME TOO STOOPID TO PUSH BUTTONZ".
(edit: spelling)

Puts on best William Shatner impersonation:

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly? Then you go on to lay out a reason why a vet might very well lay out more damage, if not 10x the damage as you claim. I spoke about this earlier, but this is more hyperbole as argument than facts as argument, and really doesn't help further any causes.

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build? Are they really not using basic skills such as interrupts and dodge rolls? Or is this stuff that has to be insinuated because the OP died in some content, and it surely can't be their fault? I mean, I'm like 90/10 for using bash on my thief. If you caught me in that one time out of 10 I didn't interrupt, would I then be qualified for the "never uses basic skills"?

Don't be so quick to put on that William Shatner impression. I've pugged in groups with a total DPS under 15k. That's 4 players combined, and I as tank pull at least 4k. So each DD wasn't doing more than 5 or 6k tops. That's under 1/10th what a good player can get in optimal conditions. The gap is there, and yes, it can be as large as 10x.

Major_Lag

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

DaveMoeDee

The tutorial isn't the problem. OP's expectations are the problem. People forget thing they learn if they don't have to apply them. The same goes for training sessions at work. And most things we learned in school. And game tutorials.

New players who come in expecting interrupts to be a thing are more likely to remember. People who come from games where you didn't have to care about that, like past TES games, are more likely to just forget. My main is a tank, so I had to remember that as I am the guy usually interrupting bosses in group dungeons.

When I have pugged with a healer, I find I am still interrupting a lot as the other people often don't realize that is a thing. This is when I can politely share knowledge with them.

robertthebard

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

VaranisArano

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

You said its been a year or so since you did group content, and I'm curious - were you a tank?

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

I realize you were maybe trying to make a point about hyperbole and that low DPS groups are rare enough that they aren't a big problem...but you came off more like saying they don't exist. They do, and if you played as a PUG tank on a regular basis, you'd meet them.

robertthebard

VaranisArano wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

You said its been a year or so since you did group content, and I'm curious - were you a tank?

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

I realize you were maybe trying to make a point about hyperbole and that low DPS groups are rare enough that they aren't a big problem...but you came off more like saying they don't exist. They do, and if you played as a PUG tank on a regular basis, you'd meet them.

What I'm looking at is how far the poster I quoted had to go to get to their projections. They might as well have said "shows up naked, punching". Yes, it's a direct "assault" on the hyperbole. It's also a thing where I could copy/paste posts from assorted game forums, and nobody would be able to tell what game they're from. So yeah, I get a bit cynical when I see "we do 10x the damage". Maybe more than a bit, actually, because I've also seen claims like "the vast majority of players don't roll dodge" in GW 2. It just comes off as "they aren't doing exactly what I think they should do, exactly when, so they suck", and it's a bit more than a touch ironic that in both cases, the posters are blaming the tutorials...

Mettaricana

Overland content isn't tough enough for most of the mediocre player base to remember anything more than light attack spam and stand in red circles then complain they dont know why they died...

wishlist14

I keybind my interrupt to my F button. Easy access 😆😉

idk

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

SidraWillowsky

Send them all into vMA.

But in all seriousness... Lots of enemies in the open world are much easier to deal with if you interrupt/dodge, but they won't kill you if they hit you. Still, I've been knocked down by those damn nix oxen in Vvardenfell or hit by an NPC's dizzying swing enough times to know that life is much easier if I dodge or interrupt their attacks.

It's not a requirement to stay alive in overland though, so do people just wander around getting stunned and dizzying swing-ed?

Coppes

idk wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity...

When you went to your first job and they gave you a tutorial do you remember everything that was in it?

Or did you actually Learn the job by working with others, on the job ?

This comparison seems clever at a glance, but actually doesn’t really encapsulate the situation. Most jobs are nowhere near as vast and complex as this game is. Certainly not “first” jobs. Most jobs also do not have instances of hundreds of employees next to you that are just as clueless as you. That comparison would require most of ESO’s playerbase to have a competent grasp on everything in the game, and they don’t.

Disagree.

For starters, I think you over state the complexity of the game. You want combat complexity, play a jedi in SWTOR at top level. We got noting close to that here.

I have played a Jedi in SWTOR. Sage, Shadow, Sentinal, and Guardian, so whatever Jedi you are speaking of I have played it extensively. I am a founder in SWTOR so I have seen it from early on. I have played every advanced class in SWTOR and cleared many of the operations in HM and have done some NiM. Combat in SWTOR is much simpler than ESO. It is both slower and simplistic at its core.

Eh, I find SWTOR’s PvP to be more strategic, you don’t get as many break-frees and have to commit more often too.

SteveCampsOut

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Q_Q wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

How is this a tutorial problem?

How is it not? Do you know what tutorial means?

The tutorial in this game literally makes you interrupt a cast 3 times in a row. Then as soon as people leave the tutorial they forget how to interrupt. Clearly the tutorial isn't getting the job done.

You can not seriously blame the tutorial because people rush through without learning and paying attention to what they learn! A Tutorial is there to show you the basics you need to know. Whether people pay attention and retain those basics is on them!

Major_Lag

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

Contaminate

Interrupt, dodge rolls, and break free should be required by every part of the game

it's absolutely idiotic that basic mechanics are ever optional

robertthebard

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

I should note, also, that "flashy" is why I'm a retired raider. I don't want to spend three days physically debilitated with a migraine just to play some content, and that's what raiding had started to do to me. I had to walk away from Tera specifically because of the flash.

VaranisArano

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

I should note, also, that "flashy" is why I'm a retired raider. I don't want to spend three days physically debilitated with a migraine just to play some content, and that's what raiding had started to do to me. I had to walk away from Tera specifically because of the flash.

"Test this for me, even though I've been questioning your lived experience and show every sign of being cynical about everything you've said, because I don't tank, haven't run group content for a year, and can't be bothered to test it myself."

But fine. I'll give you a chance.
During the Witches Festival and the Undaunted event, I was running my pet sorc as a tank. She does around 13-15k damage as a tank. On average, most of my groups did 30-35k DPS during boss fights, so most of my group members were doing 17 to 22k damage combined.

What does that mean? It means that even though the perfect storm of 3 players doing low damage is pretty rare, there were a lot of players in my groups doing damage that's pretty darn low and who effectively got carried by my tank or another player in the group. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who's done group content, as even without combat metrics, its not that hard to tell who's not actually doing a good job at their role.

Was it a problem for me during the event?
Not really, because I play my pet sorc as a tank specifically to carry groups like that during events. I expect it and play accordingly.

Is it a serious problem for the game? Depends on who you ask. There's a number of tanks who refuse to PUG because its much easier for them to queue up with guildmates who they know have good DPS.
Its also a lot harder for low DPS players to do ZOS' hard DLC dungeons, which makes those dungeons much more unpleasant to PUG and we see players complaining about getting them in randoms, etc.
It also makes it a lot harder for ZOS to balance content and develop new content when the vet trials raiders are doing high DPS and lots of players aren't. We see ZOS trying to tackle this issue in various ways, including their plans for heavy/light attacks.

So your gripes about hyperbole aside, the root problem of players with really low DPS does actually exist and it does impact how players play and how ZOS balances the game.

Major_Lag

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

Because the group finder is totally random, you can get an average group - or you can get a very good group, or a very bad group.
A few times I did get a <10k DPS group followed by a 60+k group, or the other way around.

I never bothered to keep any statistics about it, but I'd say that roughly 1 in 10 groups had either extremely good or extremely bad DPS, with a fairly even split (so roughly 1 in 20 for either possibility).
The great majority of the groups are unremarkably within about 10k DPS of the average.

That does not change the fact that the disparity between average and top tier DPS is still extreme.
Even if you disregard the absolute trash tier sub-10k-DPS groups as an outlier, the average is still very low.

According to Varanis, the average is on the order of 30k - personally I feel that it's slightly less, but you are free to not believe me on that point.
OTOH, a solid 4 man group will easily have well over 100k group DPS.

30k group DPS means that the DDs+healer are doing around 8-9k DPS each.
If we assume that the healer's DPS will be somewhat lower than that of the DDs, that's maybe 10k per DD and 6-7k from the healer, with the tank supplying the remaining 3-4k.

For comparison, I can do around 12-15k sustained DPS with a Sorc 2 pet vMA build in most situations.
On my magplar, wearing MS+Julianos I can get easily over 15k by just repeatedly spamming LA weaved sweeps, without using any DoTs or self buffs.
Others have put together heavy attack builds which get upwards of 20k DPS by just holding down left mouse button and casting 1 ability every 10 seconds - quite likely the highest DPS/effort ratio I've ever seen in all of ESO.

VaranisArano

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

Because the group finder is totally random, you can get an average group - or you can get a very good group, or a very bad group.
A few times I did get a <10k DPS group followed by a 60+k group, or the other way around.

I never bothered to keep any statistics about it, but I'd say that roughly 1 in 10 groups had either extremely good or extremely bad DPS, with a fairly even split (so roughly 1 in 20 for either possibility).
The great majority of the groups are unremarkably within about 10k DPS of the average.

That does not change the fact that the disparity between average and top tier DPS is still extreme.
Even if you disregard the absolute trash tier sub-10k-DPS groups as an outlier, the average is still very low.

According to Varanis, the average is on the order of 30k - personally I feel that it's slightly less, but you are free to not believe me on that point.
OTOH, a solid 4 man group will easily have well over 100k group DPS.

30k group DPS means that the DDs+healer are doing around 8-9k DPS each.
If we assume that the healer's DPS will be somewhat lower than that of the DDs, that's maybe 10k per DD and 6-7k from the healer, with the tank supplying the remaining 3-4k.

For comparison, I can do around 12-15k sustained DPS with a Sorc 2 pet vMA build in most situations.
On my magplar, wearing MS+Julianos I can get easily over 15k by just repeatedly spamming LA weaved sweeps, without using any DoTs or self buffs.
Others have put together heavy attack builds which get upwards of 20k DPS by just holding down left mouse button and casting 1 ability every 10 seconds - quite likely the highest DPS/effort ratio I've ever seen in all of ESO.

The average might well be lower. The last times I PUGed a large number of dungeons, I did so on a "DD with a taunt" build that did 13-15k DPS, specifically to speed up low DPS runs. My main tank only does 6 to 8k DPS, so the average group DPS she sees is probably lower, but I haven't paid as much attention to her recent runs to be able to quote numbers.

Major_Lag

VaranisArano wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

Because the group finder is totally random, you can get an average group - or you can get a very good group, or a very bad group.
A few times I did get a <10k DPS group followed by a 60+k group, or the other way around.

I never bothered to keep any statistics about it, but I'd say that roughly 1 in 10 groups had either extremely good or extremely bad DPS, with a fairly even split (so roughly 1 in 20 for either possibility).
The great majority of the groups are unremarkably within about 10k DPS of the average.

That does not change the fact that the disparity between average and top tier DPS is still extreme.
Even if you disregard the absolute trash tier sub-10k-DPS groups as an outlier, the average is still very low.

According to Varanis, the average is on the order of 30k - personally I feel that it's slightly less, but you are free to not believe me on that point.
OTOH, a solid 4 man group will easily have well over 100k group DPS.

30k group DPS means that the DDs+healer are doing around 8-9k DPS each.
If we assume that the healer's DPS will be somewhat lower than that of the DDs, that's maybe 10k per DD and 6-7k from the healer, with the tank supplying the remaining 3-4k.

For comparison, I can do around 12-15k sustained DPS with a Sorc 2 pet vMA build in most situations.
On my magplar, wearing MS+Julianos I can get easily over 15k by just repeatedly spamming LA weaved sweeps, without using any DoTs or self buffs.
Others have put together heavy attack builds which get upwards of 20k DPS by just holding down left mouse button and casting 1 ability every 10 seconds - quite likely the highest DPS/effort ratio I've ever seen in all of ESO.

The average might well be lower. The last times I PUGed a large number of dungeons, I did so on a "DD with a taunt" build that did 13-15k DPS, specifically to speed up low DPS runs. My main tank only does 6 to 8k DPS, so the average group DPS she sees is probably lower, but I haven't paid as much attention to her recent runs to be able to quote numbers.

Unfortunately, I concur that the only sane way to PUG tank the easier content is to use a DD with a taunt slotted.
On a Sorc, a vMA build with an ice staff backbar works well for that. As a bonus, you also don't have to worry about the healer being fake, either.

My Sorc tank built for veteran content can barely scratch 4k DPS at the best of times, so it's a huge pain to tank dungeons where the "DDs" are doing almost no damage at all.

That's the tragedy of tanking PUGs: a good DD can easily carry even a very bad group, even if the tank and healer are both fake.
But even the best tank can't carry a group consisting of only trash tier DDs and a fake healer - especially in content which has DPS checks, which becomes literally impossible in that case.

Gilvoth

no one should be forced to use any playstyle in eso.
freedom of how to and what skills to use is and Should Be the primary Goal.
if someone wants to develop a playstyle on their own then go ahead, if someone asks for guidance on Your playstyle then Good for you. dont force playstyles on anyone. let people have Freedom of choice on how they want to play.

Major_Lag

Gilvoth wrote: »

no one should be forced to use any playstyle in eso.
freedom of how to and what skills to use is and Should Be the primary Goal.
if someone wants to develop a playstyle on their own then go ahead, if someone asks for guidance on Your playstyle then Good for you. dont force playstyles on anyone. let people have Freedom of choice on how they want to play.

Ahh, but it also works the other way:
If someone insists on using (for example) a RP Legolas 5k DPS snipe spam build - which is perfectly fine, "play as you want" - then they should stay out of the veteran content, where they absolutely don't belong.
Or at least go there with their friends, who are able and willing to carry their badly underperforming build in content which it is absolutely unsuitable for.

Some players seem to have a certain excessive sense of entitlement - they seem to think that they are entitled to complete all of ESO's content, including the hardest, without putting in any of the effort it takes.

No.
If you want to complete the more difficult content, you should be prepared to work for it.
ESO is certainly "play as you want", but that does not mean that all content is accessible to everyone.

Hard content is hard for a reason - it's exactly so that the average Joe can't simply waltz into a random PUG and grab their Godslayer title by just spamming LAs or random abilities while wearing mismatched overland gear found in "treasure" chests.

To use a real-world example: any physically fit person can play football - but someone who casually plays only 1 match per month with their friends has absolutely no business applying to a pro football league.

For those players who are unable and/or unwilling to invest the effort into improving their skills, there is still the normal version of ESO's content - which is much easier, and as such it is far more accessible to a large part of the playerbase.

VaranisArano

Gilvoth wrote: »

no one should be forced to use any playstyle in eso.
freedom of how to and what skills to use is and Should Be the primary Goal.
if someone wants to develop a playstyle on their own then go ahead, if someone asks for guidance on Your playstyle then Good for you. dont force playstyles on anyone. let people have Freedom of choice on how they want to play.

This ideal lasts about as long as it takes that playstyle to fail a mechanics or DPS check, and then they've got two options: adjust their playstyle to pass the check or fail to complete the content.

I'm all for being polite when it comes to making suggestions about changing playstyles to pass content checks, but its a good thing that the content itself will force certain playstyles to change as the requirements get harder. Just look at how much players improve as they run VMA, for example.

robertthebard

VaranisArano wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

I should note, also, that "flashy" is why I'm a retired raider. I don't want to spend three days physically debilitated with a migraine just to play some content, and that's what raiding had started to do to me. I had to walk away from Tera specifically because of the flash.

"Test this for me, even though I've been questioning your lived experience and show every sign of being cynical about everything you've said, because I don't tank, haven't run group content for a year, and can't be bothered to test it myself."

But fine. I'll give you a chance.
During the Witches Festival and the Undaunted event, I was running my pet sorc as a tank. She does around 13-15k damage as a tank. On average, most of my groups did 30-35k DPS during boss fights, so most of my group members were doing 17 to 22k damage combined.

What does that mean? It means that even though the perfect storm of 3 players doing low damage is pretty rare, there were a lot of players in my groups doing damage that's pretty darn low and who effectively got carried by my tank or another player in the group. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who's done group content, as even without combat metrics, its not that hard to tell who's not actually doing a good job at their role.

Was it a problem for me during the event?
Not really, because I play my pet sorc as a tank specifically to carry groups like that during events. I expect it and play accordingly.

Is it a serious problem for the game? Depends on who you ask. There's a number of tanks who refuse to PUG because its much easier for them to queue up with guildmates who they know have good DPS.
Its also a lot harder for low DPS players to do ZOS' hard DLC dungeons, which makes those dungeons much more unpleasant to PUG and we see players complaining about getting them in randoms, etc.
It also makes it a lot harder for ZOS to balance content and develop new content when the vet trials raiders are doing high DPS and lots of players aren't. We see ZOS trying to tackle this issue in various ways, including their plans for heavy/light attacks.

So your gripes about hyperbole aside, the root problem of players with really low DPS does actually exist and it does impact how players play and how ZOS balances the game.

Nothing listed here is 10 times less damage, in fact, it barely qualified for double. So let's see some numbers where you had this imagined 10 times less damage from a group. That's the (edited for television) I'm calling out, and I've made it more than plain, in every post. Which begs the question "If I can type 10x less damage" and nobody responds to that with anything more than roughly half, how are they getting this information in game?

VaranisArano

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Seriously, I can't. First there's the "1/10th of the damage". I assume, of course, that you can provide actual evidence of all of these players that are underperforming that badly?

You will have to excuse me for not having a screenshot of that, but I've PUGged enough dungeons (as a real tank) where the group DPS was in the 4-digit range, with my tank contributing about a third of it. The lowest group DPS I've ever seen was around 8k.
I really wish I were joking about that, but it's unfortunately 100% true.

1/10th is actually a massive underestimate, if you think about it.
A very good player parses for >50k on a 6 mil dummy.
Those bad players I mentioned, they weren't even doing 5k. I really wish they could do at least 5k!

To get 8k DPS group damage in a 4 man group, each player needs to do 2k DPS on average.
My tank was above the group DPS average (YIKES!), at about 3k. So that means that each of the remaining 3 players were doing under 2k DPS. On a boss that was being held still and debuffed by me.

So those specific players, they were doing less than 1/25th the DPS that a highly skilled player is capable of.
There are your facts.

robertthebard wrote: »

Seeing that, I'm less inclined to believe there's an actual problem, and more inclined to believe it's an anomaly. Especially if I'm going to take your numbers at face value. I'm not going to, but if I were... I mean, how are they geared? What builds? Is the new player using a "sub-optimal" build?

Going by their DPS (I'm still talking about that 1/10th damage thing), I'd hazard to guess that they were wearing all white, non-set, non-enchanted, trash tier equipment.
Some of them were even using various damaging abilities, so they weren't all just bow LA spammers, either.

So it's a "Trust me, it's true" thing? Looking at your hazarded guess doesn't inspire me all that much into the "Jump on board mate, we're not pulling your leg at all, people not in our clique are really that bad"... I mean, the majority of my toons are, since I just looked at some of them, in a mix from Purple to Blue, and I'm not even looking at running group content, and am really playing really casually... I mean, I was literally gone for a year, and can get better gear goofing off on a map.

Roll a tank and start PUGging dungeons to farm gear, and you will quickly see that I'm not making this up.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because chalk me up as another tank player who's had those low DPS groups, where I'm doing way too high of the combat metrics damage percentage with my whopping 4-6k DPS.

Those groups are pretty rare, all things considered. Most groups I get can pull somewhere between 20-40k DPS. But low DPS groups certainly happen when I PUG.

It's certainly true that the average group isn't that extremely bad.
Although in my experience, the average has been somewhat lower than what you state - I'd say it was closer to 15-30k.

When PUGging dungeons, I'm already happy if I see over 20k group DPS - because it means we will still clear it faster than soloing it with a vMA build, and it's also a good deal easier when I only have to do the work of one role at a time instead of all 3.

Oh, and because the whole discussion is about interrupts: when PUGging, it's quite uncommon to see anyone interrupt anything.
It's certainly rare enough that I'm very impressed when it happens.
Not counting Crushing Shock spammers, who naturally interrupt ALL THE THINGS without any level of thinking about it.

Funny enough, there seems to be a positive correlation between good group DPS and a higher frequency of interrupting interruptible attacks by the PUGs. The same also applies to interacting with other boss mechanics.
The really bad groups with <15k group DPS almost never interrupt, and the really good groups with >50k group DPS interrupt most of the time.
Not at all surprising though, when you consider that the high DPS groups invariably have at least one competent DPS or healer in them.

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Further, a couple of years ago Zos reduced how many effects we see from the skills other player use. There are some that still show up but nowhere near what it used to be.

IMO I don't think they reduced it nearly enough - personally I find the "visual spam" still pretty extreme at times, and in some situations it's quite eye-straining to constantly watch out for the relatively subtle block/interrupt cues.

And if you want to see a truly extreme example of what I'm talking about, go visit an Alik'r dolmen in primetime when there are 2 24-man raids farming it. It's impossible to even see if there are any lootable corpses on the ground, that's how bad it can get.
(edit: oops, quoting fail)

Argue all you want about your feeling of how Zos reduced the visual effects. We are all entitled to hold an opinion on that matter and express it.

However, I will say if your biggest issue is at the Alik'r dolmens then you are in pretty good shape. I thought we were talking serious tanking and important interrupts, not looting corpses.

I was simply stating that in some situations there can still be a highly excessive amount of ally visual effects showing.
In addition to the resulting visual clutter, this also very negatively affects the client's performance - causing heavy FPS drops and stuttering. And certain abilities (such as all Templar AoEs) seem to cause much worse FPS drops than others, probably because of their lighting effects.
That is true especially in PvP - when 2 or more organized, medium/large groups are fighting each other. At least in that particular case you certainly won't be worrying about interrupt anything, because that's not relevant in that kind of fights.

So the question now becomes "How many groups will I have to tank before I get this 10x lower damage" group. By your own admission, it is, as I said earlier, an anomaly, so is it 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 groups? I have no doubt that some groups are going to do better than other groups, "retired" progression raider, I've got first hand experience. But even with that, I've not logged any instances where I could realistically point to a pair of groups and claim that one did 10x as much damage as another, w/out owning "Ok, I'm being more than a bit hyperbolic". I could probably easily find some that were 3x as much. I have also never had to justify my claims with "they showed up to end game content in starter gear" either.

I should note, also, that "flashy" is why I'm a retired raider. I don't want to spend three days physically debilitated with a migraine just to play some content, and that's what raiding had started to do to me. I had to walk away from Tera specifically because of the flash.

"Test this for me, even though I've been questioning your lived experience and show every sign of being cynical about everything you've said, because I don't tank, haven't run group content for a year, and can't be bothered to test it myself."

But fine. I'll give you a chance.
During the Witches Festival and the Undaunted event, I was running my pet sorc as a tank. She does around 13-15k damage as a tank. On average, most of my groups did 30-35k DPS during boss fights, so most of my group members were doing 17 to 22k damage combined.

What does that mean? It means that even though the perfect storm of 3 players doing low damage is pretty rare, there were a lot of players in my groups doing damage that's pretty darn low and who effectively got carried by my tank or another player in the group. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who's done group content, as even without combat metrics, its not that hard to tell who's not actually doing a good job at their role.

Was it a problem for me during the event?
Not really, because I play my pet sorc as a tank specifically to carry groups like that during events. I expect it and play accordingly.

Is it a serious problem for the game? Depends on who you ask. There's a number of tanks who refuse to PUG because its much easier for them to queue up with guildmates who they know have good DPS.
Its also a lot harder for low DPS players to do ZOS' hard DLC dungeons, which makes those dungeons much more unpleasant to PUG and we see players complaining about getting them in randoms, etc.
It also makes it a lot harder for ZOS to balance content and develop new content when the vet trials raiders are doing high DPS and lots of players aren't. We see ZOS trying to tackle this issue in various ways, including their plans for heavy/light attacks.

So your gripes about hyperbole aside, the root problem of players with really low DPS does actually exist and it does impact how players play and how ZOS balances the game.

Nothing listed here is 10 times less damage, in fact, it barely qualified for double. So let's see some numbers where you had this imagined 10 times less damage from a group. That's the (edited for television) I'm calling out, and I've made it more than plain, in every post. Which begs the question "If I can type 10x less damage" and nobody responds to that with anything more than roughly half, how are they getting this information in game?

Yeah, yeah, I get that you are monofocused on that 10x lower number to the point that you are disregarding the actual info you've been given. Its getting tiresome because its a strawman you are attacking in order to avoid dealing the overall point we're making, which is that a good portion of the players running group content do really low DPS compared to the top tier of end game raiders. Try addressing that and maybe you'll muster a stronger argument.

In the examples I gave, there were almost certainly players doing less than 5k damage. I can't tell you their exact DPS, because Combat Metrics doesn't work that way for darned good reasons, but its easily extrapolated from the numbers and my experience that the remaining DPS was not evenly divided between my group members. Some players were doing higher DPS, which means that some were obviously doing lower (and no, it wasn't always the healers doing the least damage.)

Even if we disregard that, are you really going to argue that doing what, 6k, 7k, 8k is okay DPS for a "damage dealer"? My pure tank does that much in between taunting, CCing, and debuffing! What my numbers show, once we move past the strawman of that "10x less" threshold, is that a good portion of my groupmates were doing bad DPS, especially compared to top tier players; judging by my numbers, most weren't quite breaking 10k DPS. That's not good for ESO when ZOS is balancing their new group content for players who do considerable more.


Finally, you want me to do the work of providing yet more numbers because you can't be bothered?
Really?
Nah, I'm done with the cynical nitpicking. You go put me to the test. See for yourself. You can replicate what I did during the Witches/Undaunted event.
See, more data is always better!

Test steps:
Download combat metrics.
Queue as a tank in random normal dungeons. Alternatively, just queue for the three starter dungeons if you want relatively quick and easy runs.
Do about 10 runs and track your group DPS vs your DPS on boss fights to get an idea of what your group mates are doing.
If your results are similar to mine, you'll see a fair amount of players who are doing pretty low DPS in the grand scheme of things. You might not see that "10x less" you are so stuck on, but I suspect you'll figure out the overall point - there are plenty of players who do comparatively low DPS.

If you don't want to test it, then yeah, you'll just have to rely on the experience of players who have been doing group content more recently than a year ago that, yes, there are a good portion of "damage dealer" players in our dungeon groups who do substantially less DPS than what's considered "good" much less compared to what top tier players can pull.

InaMoonlight

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

It's honestly painful to see people above 1000cp that still don't know how to interrupt. I can't even begin to count the amount of times i've died to one shot mechanics because the rest of the group stares at the boss as it pummels me to death when all they have to do is bash.

If you want a game, and players to be JUST like that, and that, and like you - You're in the wrong game. If you have to go on a forum and whine about incompetent players. It's because you didn't care enough to gently advice them, nor did you consider or respect anyone you play with in any way, expecting an NPC who does everything as automated as the boss or pledge you're in.

If all you can do about newbie or inexperienced players, is flame them cause they don't play your way, nor offer *FRIENDLY* advice - stop playing with people.

Edit: Entirely - consider some people actually play games for fun, not abiding to your 00,2 rotation. NO WAY, People having fun IN A GAME!

You lost your foci if you're not having fun, and newbies bother you that much, do you even remember being one? You're a newbie again now, you're looking at you... What are you?