krachall wrote: »

So once again, ZOS is considering making massive, sweeping changes to the combat system -- changes you'd more expect to see from a game in early beta than a game celebrating it's sixth year. And this time we have a whole new set of reasons that I don't recall ever being discussed in such detail: the gap between high-APM players and low-APM players.

I'm not buying it...but I think the last 18 months of progressive skill nerfs combined with the changes currently on the PTS give a clue as to ZOS true goal.

First, as to why I don't believe that the high-APM vs. low-APM gap is the issue. Don't get me wrong, I totally recognize there's a gap and it's a big one. I was a very low APM player and have spent a significant portion of my play time increasing my DPS...er...sorry, APM. My first ever dummy parse was 8k DPS. I'm now at around 35k on that same dummy. Yes, there are players who don't bother to learn the game's combat mechanics and don't want to optimize their character and don't want to practice on a dummy. And there are players who are willing to do anything they can do maximize their damage. There's a gap for sure.

But, to ZOS' immense credit, there is significant content in the game for that entire range of players. There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication. And there are dungeons that a group of perfectly optimized high-APM players are challenged by and can complete. There's content so hard that only a handful of players have completed it. And there's something for everyone in between.

So while there is certainly a skill gap, I fail to see what that is such a massive problem that it requires a massive change to the games core combat mechanics.

I think there are, instead, two reasons for the latest round changes on the PTS: 1) Lowering overall damage to force more players to follow dungeon design choreography and 2) improving server performance.

I'm not going to theorize on the latter, as I think most people recognize that thinly-veiled objective. But I'll explain the first.

I'm guessing that when ZOS designs an encounter, they use a baseline group DPS number to plan the mechanics and expect the players to follow the very specific choreography they built. An over-simplified example would be "At 40,000 group DPS, the boss will be at about 80% health when we want them to put their right hand and green and their left foot on yellow. Then we'll make this and that happen until they DPS the boss to 60% where we want them to put right foot blue and left hand red..."

But when a group is doing 80,000 DPS, they start ignoring some of these lovingly designed mechanics and either burn through them or heal through them. At 120,000 (and I'm making these numbers up) they play less Twister. And 160,000, they aren't even playing Twister at all.

Here's a kinda-real-game example. Take the final round of the final boss of Stage 9 of vMA (after you've broken the three crystals). Here's how three different players approach the encounter:
Low-APM: Attack boss. Watch for gold ghosts. When they spawn, collect them. Once you have all three, activate synergy and stun the arena. DPS boss more. Watch for summoners. Leave boss to kill summoners. Return to boss. Collect gold ghosts. Kill summoners. Repeat until boss dies. Collect reward.
Med-APM: Attack boss. Prevent gold ghosts from reaching boss. DPS until boss teleports. Chase, bash, DPS. Chase, bash, DPS. Collect reward.
High-APM: DPS boss. Collect reward.

When you look back at the series of huge nerfs to skills over the last 18 months (DD skills...then AOE's...then DOTs...then AOEs again) and now the testing of LA's and HA's, I don't think this has anything to do with "low APM players not enjoying the climb" as much as it has to do with ZOS's frustration with people not following their prescribed encounter choreography step by step.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

If animation cancelling made any sense at all, you wouldn't have to explain to people to do it. They'd automatically be trying to do it.

krachall wrote: »

What did I end up with? A bar full of Assassination and Shadow skills because I was playing a stalking assassin. Fighter's Guild? Nope. I'm no dumb fighter. Undaunted skills? No thanks, you bunch of Goody-two-shoes. Alliance War skills? No interest.

TheFM wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

So once again, ZOS is considering making massive, sweeping changes to the combat system -- changes you'd more expect to see from a game in early beta than a game celebrating it's sixth year. And this time we have a whole new set of reasons that I don't recall ever being discussed in such detail: the gap between high-APM players and low-APM players.

I'm not buying it...but I think the last 18 months of progressive skill nerfs combined with the changes currently on the PTS give a clue as to ZOS true goal.

First, as to why I don't believe that the high-APM vs. low-APM gap is the issue. Don't get me wrong, I totally recognize there's a gap and it's a big one. I was a very low APM player and have spent a significant portion of my play time increasing my DPS...er...sorry, APM. My first ever dummy parse was 8k DPS. I'm now at around 35k on that same dummy. Yes, there are players who don't bother to learn the game's combat mechanics and don't want to optimize their character and don't want to practice on a dummy. And there are players who are willing to do anything they can do maximize their damage. There's a gap for sure.

But, to ZOS' immense credit, there is significant content in the game for that entire range of players. There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication. And there are dungeons that a group of perfectly optimized high-APM players are challenged by and can complete. There's content so hard that only a handful of players have completed it. And there's something for everyone in between.

So while there is certainly a skill gap, I fail to see what that is such a massive problem that it requires a massive change to the games core combat mechanics.

I think there are, instead, two reasons for the latest round changes on the PTS: 1) Lowering overall damage to force more players to follow dungeon design choreography and 2) improving server performance.

I'm not going to theorize on the latter, as I think most people recognize that thinly-veiled objective. But I'll explain the first.

I'm guessing that when ZOS designs an encounter, they use a baseline group DPS number to plan the mechanics and expect the players to follow the very specific choreography they built. An over-simplified example would be "At 40,000 group DPS, the boss will be at about 80% health when we want them to put their right hand and green and their left foot on yellow. Then we'll make this and that happen until they DPS the boss to 60% where we want them to put right foot blue and left hand red..."

But when a group is doing 80,000 DPS, they start ignoring some of these lovingly designed mechanics and either burn through them or heal through them. At 120,000 (and I'm making these numbers up) they play less Twister. And 160,000, they aren't even playing Twister at all.

Here's a kinda-real-game example. Take the final round of the final boss of Stage 9 of vMA (after you've broken the three crystals). Here's how three different players approach the encounter:
Low-APM: Attack boss. Watch for gold ghosts. When they spawn, collect them. Once you have all three, activate synergy and stun the arena. DPS boss more. Watch for summoners. Leave boss to kill summoners. Return to boss. Collect gold ghosts. Kill summoners. Repeat until boss dies. Collect reward.
Med-APM: Attack boss. Prevent gold ghosts from reaching boss. DPS until boss teleports. Chase, bash, DPS. Chase, bash, DPS. Collect reward.
High-APM: DPS boss. Collect reward.

When you look back at the series of huge nerfs to skills over the last 18 months (DD skills...then AOE's...then DOTs...then AOEs again) and now the testing of LA's and HA's, I don't think this has anything to do with "low APM players not enjoying the climb" as much as it has to do with ZOS's frustration with people not following their prescribed encounter choreography step by step.

I'd say that's partially true, in that it is a PvE nerf. PvP centers around burst, not damage over time. And no one at ZOS PvP's much or well or ...at all really. LA/HA wont really affect burst in PvP. People will come up with builds that take advantage of the changes and, well, business as usual.

I can buy the changes (though I certainly don't agree with them). I can believe that ZOS would think about implementing them when you consider that few at ZOS could complete a vTrial without a SERIOUS community carry. They probably can't complete vet DLC dungeons without a zillion wipes.

To the degree that anyone at ZOS plays at all, I'd venture to guess it's not top tier. I mean say Hodor was selling tiral runs. Who would YOU pay, ZOS All Stars or Hodor lol

What are you talking about, the light attack changes will absolutely neuter most builds in pvp, and strengthen the tank meta EVEN further.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

There is no high or low APM in a game with global cooldowns. APM is irrelevant in Eso. Eso is not a strategy game that demands u to control an entire city giving a million different orders at the same time. Pressing one button every second or one and a half button every second isn't gonna change the world. Just look at the parses on the PTS. Yes people lost 10-15k DPS. But they are still doing 2-3 times more DPS than the average Joe.

Global cooldowns are essentially a soft cap to APM. What doesn't have a cooldown however is the stats and how u make ur builds allowing extreme builds with extreme results and this is more prevalent in PVP. The power creep is f***ing insane. When u see a parse and player A hits 80k with his spammable and then player B hits 40k with his spammable then that creates a power gap so big that makes the APM argument non existent.

Well no it would still be apm its just not as much as people are imagining. Its not like players are able to cast over a hundred abilties per minute no it would likely be maybe less then fifty. Not the best with mechanics as I'm a noob with them however this is a hypethetical example of what High Apm Vs Low Apm would look like and yes it is relevant.
Examples
Player 1 he does not animation cancel abilties and it takes 4 seconds to complete the ability. In a minute which is 60 seconds and divide that by that four seconds that person is able to cast that ability to cast 15 times. Player 2 with animation canceling it takes 2 or even 1.5 seconds instead of 4 because they canceled it. She is able to cast that ability 30 to 40 times. So when they are talking about apm they are talking about Animation canceling and how it allows for players to cast abilities much quicker then not using animation canceling. That is a huge difference in dps and healing potential and output and that is what they are meaning by actions per minute. Actions per minute without light weaving would be a lot lower apm then actions done using light weaving which would give a higher apm output. That is what they are talking about.

When they talk actions per minute they are meaning the obvious differences between light weaving and not light weaving. Like the example I made that is basically how it would work on the servers. That is why people really are against changing or ridding of animation canceling because without it they really are a lot slower then not doing it. People want to be able to do 30 to 40 actions they don't want to only be able to do 15. So that is what Apm is and that is exactly why it applies to Eso. It does matter to Eso when it comes to dps as dungeons are likely built around the concept of ani canceling/light weaving. For balancing reasons of course and that is why the skill is so vital in some areas of the game play to do if you want to complete these very hard dungeons.

That is why they put in that tip I believe so players would know how to do it to increase their dps outputs.

No its not. That is exactly the point. Animation cancelling and weaving existed long before those 100k parses. It existed at a time when this power gap wasnt that big. Animation cancelling doesnt allow you to cast abilities faster. The only thing that it allows you to do is squeeze one light attack. Just look at the PTS ffs. They nerfed light attacks by almost 80% and people are still doing well over double the DPS than the average Joe would do.

Yes light attacks needed a nerf but ffs blaming the gap on weaving is asinine. It essesntially fixed nothing. Weaving is what seperates the good from the bad, thats a good thing. But the power gap isnt because of weaving but because of the power creep ZOS created over the years with CP, itemization, ridiculously broken mechanics etc and guess what didnt exist back in the day when the gap wasnt that big. Thats exactly right, CP and itemization wass limited to freaking julianos willpower.

Talking about massive DPS boosts, let me indulge you on an actual massive DPS boost. Go ahead and do a DPS test on a normal dummy. Then go on and test ur DPS on a trial dummy which is actually harder cause u have to maintain ur rotation for a long time. Watch the results. You are doing almost double the DPS on the trial dummy. Now thats power gap right there. Thats f****ing power creep. Thats a massive DPS boost. That messed up.

Well I don't know on that, I was just guessing going by how people describe it and how much more you could do with it. Zenimax clearly defines and totals in Apm as if they do matter. To them it might to us it might not be as important but to them it is. They don't like what they are seeing with the Apm and want to address it. So maybe it doesn't matter to you it does not mean it doesn't matter to others or even the people at Zenimax Studios.

Lysette wrote: »

I don't think that a lot of low APM to medium APM players like me are complaining about a gap - the gap is there and it is fine, i guess the only ones thinking that there is a problem are ZOS employees. Not everyone has a problem with fighting like a wet noodle, I certainly don't - and on the positive side, normal content feels challenging enough for wet noodlers.

Malmai wrote: »

They dont play their own game, i would be surprised if they did veteran spindleclutch.

TheFM wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

So once again, ZOS is considering making massive, sweeping changes to the combat system -- changes you'd more expect to see from a game in early beta than a game celebrating it's sixth year. And this time we have a whole new set of reasons that I don't recall ever being discussed in such detail: the gap between high-APM players and low-APM players.

I'm not buying it...but I think the last 18 months of progressive skill nerfs combined with the changes currently on the PTS give a clue as to ZOS true goal.

First, as to why I don't believe that the high-APM vs. low-APM gap is the issue. Don't get me wrong, I totally recognize there's a gap and it's a big one. I was a very low APM player and have spent a significant portion of my play time increasing my DPS...er...sorry, APM. My first ever dummy parse was 8k DPS. I'm now at around 35k on that same dummy. Yes, there are players who don't bother to learn the game's combat mechanics and don't want to optimize their character and don't want to practice on a dummy. And there are players who are willing to do anything they can do maximize their damage. There's a gap for sure.

But, to ZOS' immense credit, there is significant content in the game for that entire range of players. There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication. And there are dungeons that a group of perfectly optimized high-APM players are challenged by and can complete. There's content so hard that only a handful of players have completed it. And there's something for everyone in between.

So while there is certainly a skill gap, I fail to see what that is such a massive problem that it requires a massive change to the games core combat mechanics.

I think there are, instead, two reasons for the latest round changes on the PTS: 1) Lowering overall damage to force more players to follow dungeon design choreography and 2) improving server performance.

I'm not going to theorize on the latter, as I think most people recognize that thinly-veiled objective. But I'll explain the first.

I'm guessing that when ZOS designs an encounter, they use a baseline group DPS number to plan the mechanics and expect the players to follow the very specific choreography they built. An over-simplified example would be "At 40,000 group DPS, the boss will be at about 80% health when we want them to put their right hand and green and their left foot on yellow. Then we'll make this and that happen until they DPS the boss to 60% where we want them to put right foot blue and left hand red..."

But when a group is doing 80,000 DPS, they start ignoring some of these lovingly designed mechanics and either burn through them or heal through them. At 120,000 (and I'm making these numbers up) they play less Twister. And 160,000, they aren't even playing Twister at all.

Here's a kinda-real-game example. Take the final round of the final boss of Stage 9 of vMA (after you've broken the three crystals). Here's how three different players approach the encounter:
Low-APM: Attack boss. Watch for gold ghosts. When they spawn, collect them. Once you have all three, activate synergy and stun the arena. DPS boss more. Watch for summoners. Leave boss to kill summoners. Return to boss. Collect gold ghosts. Kill summoners. Repeat until boss dies. Collect reward.
Med-APM: Attack boss. Prevent gold ghosts from reaching boss. DPS until boss teleports. Chase, bash, DPS. Chase, bash, DPS. Collect reward.
High-APM: DPS boss. Collect reward.

When you look back at the series of huge nerfs to skills over the last 18 months (DD skills...then AOE's...then DOTs...then AOEs again) and now the testing of LA's and HA's, I don't think this has anything to do with "low APM players not enjoying the climb" as much as it has to do with ZOS's frustration with people not following their prescribed encounter choreography step by step.

I'd say that's partially true, in that it is a PvE nerf. PvP centers around burst, not damage over time. And no one at ZOS PvP's much or well or ...at all really. LA/HA wont really affect burst in PvP. People will come up with builds that take advantage of the changes and, well, business as usual.

I can buy the changes (though I certainly don't agree with them). I can believe that ZOS would think about implementing them when you consider that few at ZOS could complete a vTrial without a SERIOUS community carry. They probably can't complete vet DLC dungeons without a zillion wipes.

To the degree that anyone at ZOS plays at all, I'd venture to guess it's not top tier. I mean say Hodor was selling tiral runs. Who would YOU pay, ZOS All Stars or Hodor lol

What are you talking about, the light attack changes will absolutely neuter most builds in pvp, and strengthen the tank meta EVEN further.