I'm not buying the "APM player skill gap" rhetoric from ZOS

krachall

So once again, ZOS is considering making massive, sweeping changes to the combat system -- changes you'd more expect to see from a game in early beta than a game celebrating it's sixth year. And this time we have a whole new set of reasons that I don't recall ever being discussed in such detail: the gap between high-APM players and low-APM players.

I'm not buying it...but I think the last 18 months of progressive skill nerfs combined with the changes currently on the PTS give a clue as to ZOS true goal.

First, as to why I don't believe that the high-APM vs. low-APM gap is the issue. Don't get me wrong, I totally recognize there's a gap and it's a big one. I was a very low APM player and have spent a significant portion of my play time increasing my DPS...er...sorry, APM. My first ever dummy parse was 8k DPS. I'm now at around 35k on that same dummy. Yes, there are players who don't bother to learn the game's combat mechanics and don't want to optimize their character and don't want to practice on a dummy. And there are players who are willing to do anything they can do maximize their damage. There's a gap for sure.

But, to ZOS' immense credit, there is significant content in the game for that entire range of players. There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication. And there are dungeons that a group of perfectly optimized high-APM players are challenged by and can complete. There's content so hard that only a handful of players have completed it. And there's something for everyone in between.

So while there is certainly a skill gap, I fail to see what that is such a massive problem that it requires a massive change to the games core combat mechanics.

I think there are, instead, two reasons for the latest round changes on the PTS: 1) Lowering overall damage to force more players to follow dungeon design choreography and 2) improving server performance.

I'm not going to theorize on the latter, as I think most people recognize that thinly-veiled objective. But I'll explain the first.

I'm guessing that when ZOS designs an encounter, they use a baseline group DPS number to plan the mechanics and expect the players to follow the very specific choreography they built. An over-simplified example would be "At 40,000 group DPS, the boss will be at about 80% health when we want them to put their right hand and green and their left foot on yellow. Then we'll make this and that happen until they DPS the boss to 60% where we want them to put right foot blue and left hand red..."

But when a group is doing 80,000 DPS, they start ignoring some of these lovingly designed mechanics and either burn through them or heal through them. At 120,000 (and I'm making these numbers up) they play less Twister. And 160,000, they aren't even playing Twister at all.

Here's a kinda-real-game example. Take the final round of the final boss of Stage 9 of vMA (after you've broken the three crystals). Here's how three different players approach the encounter:
Low-APM: Attack boss. Watch for gold ghosts. When they spawn, collect them. Once you have all three, activate synergy and stun the arena. DPS boss more. Watch for summoners. Leave boss to kill summoners. Return to boss. Collect gold ghosts. Kill summoners. Repeat until boss dies. Collect reward.
Med-APM: Attack boss. Prevent gold ghosts from reaching boss. DPS until boss teleports. Chase, bash, DPS. Chase, bash, DPS. Collect reward.
High-APM: DPS boss. Collect reward.

When you look back at the series of huge nerfs to skills over the last 18 months (DD skills...then AOE's...then DOTs...then AOEs again) and now the testing of LA's and HA's, I don't think this has anything to do with "low APM players not enjoying the climb" as much as it has to do with ZOS's frustration with people not following their prescribed encounter choreography step by step.

Dusk_Coven

Even supposing this is the issue -- that too many mechanics are being ignored -- the less complicated solution would be to make a new challenge tier rather than touching everything else.
So there'd be Normal Trials, Veteran Trials, and maybe a new tier of Master Mode Trials.
Doing it the other way around -- incremental changes here and there over time -- touches too many things, and requires too much rebalancing of things, and has a wider and less predictable effect on existing content.
So, I don't know if ZOS is that stupid.

The result of changes may be that more mechanics will have to be respected. But this is unlikely to be the primary goal.

Nemesis7884

honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...

Thevampirenight

Zenimax does have the means to track data for item sets which potions/poisons are used which abilities and play styles are the trending ones. They know dps numbers healing numbers and other stuff from the dungeons what the highest dps stats are and all that.

Zenimax can nerf things for any kind of reason from player demand, to some sets and skills trivializing content. But I think the biggest factors with this one is player base diversity. They want a diverse player base using what the game has to offer so to speak.
They flat out say this or strongly hint at this in the patch notes.

While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.

Here is the thing say there is this very great bis set that goes great with a meta build that is very popular.
Say this set called it Meta Mastery just a hypothetical example. This set is so popular because meta builds find it very useful now everyone is farming for it and using it. So you have like 60 to 70% of the player base using this set and only this set. Zenimax does keep track of the data they watch for this and they see it and they don't like it. Now they do a major game update that does a lot of things but then the Meta Mastery Set is nerfed why because to many players are using it.

That is the reason to many are using it for their liking and they must deal with that somehow. They must put a stop to that behavior because they see it as unhealthy and for an evolving game that offers more content over time that isn't a good thing to have. If they didn't nerf it then why use anything new why use all the other options?

This is what is happening with the Light Weaving, and this is something Zenimax has allowed to go on for a long time now they even put in a hint or something telling players how to do this. Over time more and more and more people learn to use it and well that gap between more Lower Apm that don't animation cancel as much or just uses a mix of heavy and light or just heavy is much wider to those that just light weave. This is the exact thing Zenimax will find ways to fix because it is unhealthy and worse its stagnancy and that is what I think is the true reason for this. When they mean wide, I think they mean to many players are using just this and that is likely the majority.

They want a healthy balance of people using it but not everyone using it and compared to other games that might not be nearly as Zealous about this. Zenimax is very Zealous about this and that is why these changes in some form will likely end up going to Live for that very reason. Because why use Heavy attack at all ? When Light attack is so much a better option? If it wasn't for the resource gain from Heavy attacks its possible players wouldn't even use it. So that is what these changes seem to be about. Narrowing that gap back down so not everyone is just using Light weaving but mixing it up. This does seem to be the outcome Zenimax is hoping and I believe they do want to see people mix up things by using light, medium and heavy attacks instead of just light weaving. Along with doing their normal light weaving along the way when it comes to resources and ability damage.

CleymenZero

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Even supposing this is the issue -- that too many mechanics are being ignored -- the less complicated solution would be to make a new challenge tier rather than touching everything else.
So there'd be Normal Trials, Veteran Trials, and maybe a new tier of Master Mode Trials.
Doing it the other way around -- incremental changes here and there over time -- touches too many things, and requires too much rebalancing of things, and has a wider and less predictable effect on existing content.
So, I don't know if ZOS is that stupid.

The result of changes may be that more mechanics will have to be respected. But this is unlikely to be the primary goal.

Ahh the new challenge tier!

Been talking about it for a while and even mentioned it on the forums and think it's the best thing to do to keep the very high end players involved.

There could even be a score mode implemented that would keep a lot of groups competing for a while.

But all that being said, I think the high APM issue is real and has more to do with performance than DPS. Lowering the APM means lowering the amount of inputs to the server therefore reducing the number of calculations the server has to do.

Dusk_Coven

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...

Some games don't even have such tight scaling and have (diminishing return) "unlimited" power creep.
The way they handle it is by more tiers of challenge.

Secret World Legends, for example, has 10 tiers for each dungeon, each gated by gear score. They don't care if you qualify for tier 10 but want to faceroll in tier 1 because they know some people will want to challenge themselves.

FFXIV, for example, doesn't bother rescaling their dungeons and trials every time an expansion pushes the power cap further. They just make new dungeons and trials that are harder. And older ones, you can run unsynced (no level scaling) and breeze through it, ignoring as many mechanics as you like. You get the same end-of-dungeon reward loot (which is levelled, so generally useless to you except for deconstruction) and no drops from individual monsters so you can't farm mats.

Power gap doesn't have to be a problem WITH PROPER PLANNING.

Early on ZOS let combat get out of their control. Looks like they are trying to get it under control now, but because they just let too much external feedback direct its course, now they are complicit in what's happened and don't want to just *** off everyone with a big overhaul.

pieratsos

There is no high or low APM in a game with global cooldowns. APM is irrelevant in Eso. Eso is not a strategy game that demands u to control an entire city giving a million different orders at the same time. Pressing one button every second or one and a half button every second isn't gonna change the world. Just look at the parses on the PTS. Yes people lost 10-15k DPS. But they are still doing 2-3 times more DPS than the average Joe.

Global cooldowns are essentially a soft cap to APM. What doesn't have a soft cap however is the stats and how u make ur builds allowing extreme builds with extreme results and this is more prevalent in PVP. The power creep is f***ing insane. When u see a parse and player A hits 80k with his spammable and then player B hits 40k with his spammable then that creates a power gap so big that makes the APM argument non existent.

Thevampirenight

pieratsos wrote: »

There is no high or low APM in a game with global cooldowns. APM is irrelevant in Eso. Eso is not a strategy game that demands u to control an entire city giving a million different orders at the same time. Pressing one button every second or one and a half button every second isn't gonna change the world. Just look at the parses on the PTS. Yes people lost 10-15k DPS. But they are still doing 2-3 times more DPS than the average Joe.

Global cooldowns are essentially a soft cap to APM. What doesn't have a cooldown however is the stats and how u make ur builds allowing extreme builds with extreme results and this is more prevalent in PVP. The power creep is f***ing insane. When u see a parse and player A hits 80k with his spammable and then player B hits 40k with his spammable then that creates a power gap so big that makes the APM argument non existent.

Well no it would still be apm its just not as much as people are imagining. Its not like players are able to cast over a hundred abilties per minute no it would likely be maybe less then fifty. Not the best with mechanics as I'm a noob with them however this is a hypethetical example of what High Apm Vs Low Apm would look like and yes it is relevant.
Examples
Player 1 he does not animation cancel abilties and it takes 4 seconds to complete the ability. In a minute which is 60 seconds and divide that by that four seconds that person is able to cast that ability to cast 15 times. Player 2 with animation canceling it takes 2 or even 1.5 seconds instead of 4 because they canceled it. She is able to cast that ability 30 to 40 times. So when they are talking about apm they are talking about Animation canceling and how it allows for players to cast abilities much quicker then not using animation canceling. That is a huge difference in dps and healing potential and output and that is what they are meaning by actions per minute. Actions per minute without light weaving would be a lot lower apm then actions done using light weaving which would give a higher apm output. That is what they are talking about.

When they talk actions per minute they are meaning the obvious differences between light weaving and not light weaving. Like the example I made that is basically how it would work on the servers. That is why people really are against changing or ridding of animation canceling because without it they really are a lot slower then not doing it. People want to be able to do 30 to 40 actions they don't want to only be able to do 15. So that is what Apm is and that is exactly why it applies to Eso. It does matter to Eso when it comes to dps as dungeons are likely built around the concept of ani canceling/light weaving. For balancing reasons of course and that is why the skill is so vital in some areas of the game play to do if you want to complete these very hard dungeons.

That is why they put in that tip I believe so players would know how to do it to increase their dps outputs.

pieratsos

Thevampirenight wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

There is no high or low APM in a game with global cooldowns. APM is irrelevant in Eso. Eso is not a strategy game that demands u to control an entire city giving a million different orders at the same time. Pressing one button every second or one and a half button every second isn't gonna change the world. Just look at the parses on the PTS. Yes people lost 10-15k DPS. But they are still doing 2-3 times more DPS than the average Joe.

Global cooldowns are essentially a soft cap to APM. What doesn't have a cooldown however is the stats and how u make ur builds allowing extreme builds with extreme results and this is more prevalent in PVP. The power creep is f***ing insane. When u see a parse and player A hits 80k with his spammable and then player B hits 40k with his spammable then that creates a power gap so big that makes the APM argument non existent.

Well no it would still be apm its just not as much as people are imagining. Its not like players are able to cast over a hundred abilties per minute no it would likely be maybe less then fifty. Not the best with mechanics as I'm a noob with them however this is a hypethetical example of what High Apm Vs Low Apm would look like and yes it is relevant.
Examples
Player 1 he does not animation cancel abilties and it takes 4 seconds to complete the ability. In a minute which is 60 seconds and divide that by that four seconds that person is able to cast that ability to cast 15 times. Player 2 with animation canceling it takes 2 or even 1.5 seconds instead of 4 because they canceled it. She is able to cast that ability 30 to 40 times. So when they are talking about apm they are talking about Animation canceling and how it allows for players to cast abilities much quicker then not using animation canceling. That is a huge difference in dps and healing potential and output and that is what they are meaning by actions per minute. Actions per minute without light weaving would be a lot lower apm then actions done using light weaving which would give a higher apm output. That is what they are talking about.

When they talk actions per minute they are meaning the obvious differences between light weaving and not light weaving. Like the example I made that is basically how it would work on the servers. That is why people really are against changing or ridding of animation canceling because without it they really are a lot slower then not doing it. People want to be able to do 30 to 40 actions they don't want to only be able to do 15. So that is what Apm is and that is exactly why it applies to Eso. It does matter to Eso when it comes to dps as dungeons are likely built around the concept of ani canceling/light weaving. For balancing reasons of course and that is why the skill is so vital in some areas of the game play to do if you want to complete these very hard dungeons.

That is why they put in that tip I believe so players would know how to do it to increase their dps outputs.

No its not. That is exactly the point. Animation cancelling and weaving existed long before those 100k parses. It existed at a time when this power gap wasnt that big. Animation cancelling doesnt allow you to cast abilities faster. The only thing that it allows you to do is squeeze one light attack. Just look at the PTS ffs. They nerfed light attacks by almost 80% and people are still doing well over double the DPS than the average Joe would do. And the average Joe still knows how to weave to a certain degree. That should tell you that weaving isnt a problem.

Yes light attacks needed a nerf but ffs blaming the gap on weaving is asinine. It essesntially fixed nothing. Weaving is what seperates the good from the bad, thats a good thing. But the power gap isnt because of weaving but because of the power creep ZOS created over the years with CP, itemization, ridiculously broken mechanics etc and guess what didnt exist back in the day when the gap wasnt that big. Thats exactly right, CP and itemization which was limited to freaking julianos willpower.

Talking about massive DPS boosts, let me indulge you on an actual massive DPS boost. Go ahead and do a DPS test on a normal dummy. Then go on and test ur DPS on a trial dummy which is actually harder cause u have to maintain ur rotation for a very long time. Watch the results. You are doing almost double the DPS on the trial dummy. Now do the same with and without CP and then do the same with BiS gear and subpar gear. The DPS difference is again actually massive. Now thats power gap right there. Thats f****ing power creep. Thats a massive DPS boost. That messed up. Thats what needs fixing. Not the player who spent time to become good at the game.

Thevampirenight

pieratsos wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

There is no high or low APM in a game with global cooldowns. APM is irrelevant in Eso. Eso is not a strategy game that demands u to control an entire city giving a million different orders at the same time. Pressing one button every second or one and a half button every second isn't gonna change the world. Just look at the parses on the PTS. Yes people lost 10-15k DPS. But they are still doing 2-3 times more DPS than the average Joe.

Global cooldowns are essentially a soft cap to APM. What doesn't have a cooldown however is the stats and how u make ur builds allowing extreme builds with extreme results and this is more prevalent in PVP. The power creep is f***ing insane. When u see a parse and player A hits 80k with his spammable and then player B hits 40k with his spammable then that creates a power gap so big that makes the APM argument non existent.

Well no it would still be apm its just not as much as people are imagining. Its not like players are able to cast over a hundred abilties per minute no it would likely be maybe less then fifty. Not the best with mechanics as I'm a noob with them however this is a hypethetical example of what High Apm Vs Low Apm would look like and yes it is relevant.
Examples
Player 1 he does not animation cancel abilties and it takes 4 seconds to complete the ability. In a minute which is 60 seconds and divide that by that four seconds that person is able to cast that ability to cast 15 times. Player 2 with animation canceling it takes 2 or even 1.5 seconds instead of 4 because they canceled it. She is able to cast that ability 30 to 40 times. So when they are talking about apm they are talking about Animation canceling and how it allows for players to cast abilities much quicker then not using animation canceling. That is a huge difference in dps and healing potential and output and that is what they are meaning by actions per minute. Actions per minute without light weaving would be a lot lower apm then actions done using light weaving which would give a higher apm output. That is what they are talking about.

When they talk actions per minute they are meaning the obvious differences between light weaving and not light weaving. Like the example I made that is basically how it would work on the servers. That is why people really are against changing or ridding of animation canceling because without it they really are a lot slower then not doing it. People want to be able to do 30 to 40 actions they don't want to only be able to do 15. So that is what Apm is and that is exactly why it applies to Eso. It does matter to Eso when it comes to dps as dungeons are likely built around the concept of ani canceling/light weaving. For balancing reasons of course and that is why the skill is so vital in some areas of the game play to do if you want to complete these very hard dungeons.

That is why they put in that tip I believe so players would know how to do it to increase their dps outputs.

No its not. That is exactly the point. Animation cancelling and weaving existed long before those 100k parses. It existed at a time when this power gap wasnt that big. Animation cancelling doesnt allow you to cast abilities faster. The only thing that it allows you to do is squeeze one light attack. Just look at the PTS ffs. They nerfed light attacks by almost 80% and people are still doing well over double the DPS than the average Joe would do.

Yes light attacks needed a nerf but ffs blaming the gap on weaving is asinine. It essesntially fixed nothing. Weaving is what seperates the good from the bad, thats a good thing. But the power gap isnt because of weaving but because of the power creep ZOS created over the years with CP, itemization, ridiculously broken mechanics etc and guess what didnt exist back in the day when the gap wasnt that big. Thats exactly right, CP and itemization wass limited to freaking julianos willpower.

Talking about massive DPS boosts, let me indulge you on an actual massive DPS boost. Go ahead and do a DPS test on a normal dummy. Then go on and test ur DPS on a trial dummy which is actually harder cause u have to maintain ur rotation for a long time. Watch the results. You are doing almost double the DPS on the trial dummy. Now thats power gap right there. Thats f****ing power creep. Thats a massive DPS boost. That messed up.

Well I don't know on that, I was just guessing going by how people describe it and how much more you could do with it. Zenimax clearly defines and totals in Apm as if they do matter. To them it might to us it might not be as important but to them it is. They don't like what they are seeing with the Apm and want to address it. So maybe it doesn't matter to you it does not mean it doesn't matter to others or even the people at Zenimax Studios.

LadyNalcarya

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...

The problem is that most players are unaware of how the game works, and this is what causes this discrepancy. So they should just teach players instead of butchering game mechanics.
The difference in static rotation is not 3x, you can get something like 60k on a raid dummy with a beginner setup (Julianos etc). Those who pull 5-10k dps just don't have any rotation, static or otherwise. Most of the time it's not their fault, the game doesn't tell them how to play it.
Actually, this is one of the things that make Dark Souls difficult. If the game doesn't tell you what to do and where to go, most players will fail. It doesn't mean they're stupid or anything, it's just human nature. So ZOS needs to do something about that to make the game more accessible to those who don't have time or motivation to watch youtube guides.
P.S. Oh and also people should stop comparing 3mil dummy parses with raid dummy parses. This is where a lot of comparisons fail, like "I only do 20k and this guy pulls 90k, this is unfair!". 20k on a 3 mil would easily transform into 40k on iron atronach.

Artanisul

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

kathandira

Imo, the problem is that ZoS painted themselves in a corner by having every class able to perform every role, and telling the players that they can play their own way. It created players who feel that they are entitled to all game content no matter their skill level, or character build. Due to this, ZoS seems to cater to that, and wants all players to be able to do all things.

This game simply isn't the game for the heavily invested in character builds, and maxing out their performance. It may have been once upon a time, but it just isn't any more. Just look at the rewards for completing the most challenging content (Vet HM Trials). What do you get? Something only marginally better than Normal Mode rewards (Perfected Gear). Even the Quality of the items isn't much of a reward since all items can be Improved via crafting.

Want to be special and noticeably more powerful than those who cannot complete your level of content? Go find a game that values that sort of mentality, cause this one ain't it, and it's only going to get worse from here forward.

LadyNalcarya

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're most likely doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

Artanisul

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

LadyNalcarya

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

vamp_emily

Am I missing something? I don't see the issue with the change they are making to LA.

Lets say I walked up to you and gave you a light slap on the face? Would it hurt? More than likely not. If I took a frying pan pulled back as far as I could and then hit you on the head, would it hurt? ( I'm sure it would )

Light attacks are quick attacks that should do less damage, Heavy attacks take longer to execute and should do more damage.

Obviously I'm missing something.

kathandira

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

Pending on your latency, you may have to be a bit spammy just to be sure your skills actually fire. It could be different from player to player.

casparian

krachall wrote: »

There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication.

And those dungeons come free with the base game. ZOS makes money by selling four DLC per year, and right now players' incentive to buy two of those four is locked behind an APM gate. ZOS' goal is exactly what they've been saying it is for years (raise the floor, lower the ceiling) because if they can successfully do that then they stand to make more money through DLC sales.

LadyNalcarya

kathandira wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

Pending on your latency, you may have to be a bit spammy just to be sure your skills actually fire. It could be different from player to player.

And this is why ZOS needs to focus on reducing lag and making the game more stable instead of butchering combat system.

vamp_emily wrote: »

Am I missing something? I don't see the issue with the change they are making to LA.

Lets say I walked up to you and gave you a light slap on the face? Would it hurt? More than likely not. If I took a frying pan pulled back as far as I could and then hit you on the head, would it hurt? ( I'm sure it would )

Light attacks are quick attacks that should do less damage, Heavy attacks take longer to execute and should do more damage.

Obviously I'm missing something.

If it was just a reasonable nerf to light attacks and buff to heavy attacks, I would honestly support it.

LadyNalcarya

casparian wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication.

And those dungeons come free with the base game. ZOS makes money by selling four DLC per year, and right now players' incentive to buy two of those four is locked behind an APM gate. ZOS' goal is exactly what they've been saying it is for years (raise the floor, lower the ceiling) because if they can successfully do that then they stand to make more money through DLC sales.

That's simply not true. You can clear veteran Icereach and UG with a slow heavy attack build. These new dungeons are actually quite well balanced for an average player. And for those who want a more casual experience, there's always normal mode.

Artanisul

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...

I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.

This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.

xaraan

I will say this about some of the 'data' we see thrown around. When you look at players who have completed this content, or even try that content. Anyone has a tendency to frame the numbers in the way that best suits their point.

I'd bet the APM gap is not as bad as it looks if you take all the players out that don't care about DPS, doing trials, dungeons, etc. I also know that there are more players near (not AT) the top end than others seem to think. I'm definitely not a 1% DD player, but you'd think I was if a low APM player was looking at my stats.

In the end, the concept of the PTS change is on the money IMO. The way LA/HA works now is not intuitive to someone not studying the game. And there is nothing wrong with studying a skill to get better at it, but there are some aspects of fighting in a game that should be intuitive. I really liked Code's take on the whole change in the PTS forum personally.

Heavy Attacks are way too clunky to be used in most rotations in a fun way. Most people that want a build like this do it out of necessity more than because they love it. So there is nothing wrong with having them be viable. But they definitely should not push players into HA builds that enjoy the current (and for most of recent eso history) playstyle. They also shouldn't create something that causes players to have to relearn the game again. This yearly trend (or sometimes multiple times a year) needs to stop. It's not fun. Code's take achieved what they said their goal was in the testing and avoided the pitfalls I listed above for the most part.

LadyNalcarya

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...

I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.

This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.

Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.

BlueRaven

It’s not a question of if it is “fair” or not to have a wide dps discrepancy, the question is if it is financially sustainable.

Wide discrepancy in dps lowers participation in dungeons, trials, arenas, and pvp.
If a person feels they are not capable of the dps required, or even worse, they are chased out of that content by over critical fellow players, they will not return. And that just leaves less available repeatable content for that player to do.

Zos “sells” two dungeon dlcs per year (roughly), they also introduce chapter’s with a new trial, and pvp players are always hungry for new content. But if a minority of players are doing them, what should the budget for this content be?

Having content that is essentially “exclusive” to a small segment of the player population is difficult to implement, especially when the demands of that small segment is so diverse.

It’s better to make that content accessible to all, then just making less of that content.

LadyNalcarya

BlueRaven wrote: »

It’s not a question of if it is “fair” or not to have a wide dps discrepancy, the question is if it is financially sustainable.

Wide discrepancy in dps lowers participation in dungeons, trials, arenas, and pvp.
If a person feels they are not capable of the dps required, or even worse, they are chased out of that content by over critical fellow players, they will not return. And that just leaves less available repeatable content for that player to do.

Zos “sells” two dungeon dlcs per year (roughly), they also introduce chapter’s with a new trial, and pvp players are always hungry for new content. But if a minority of players are doing them, what should the budget for this content be?

Having content that is essentially “exclusive” to a small segment of the player population is difficult to implement, especially when the demands of that small segment is so diverse.

It’s better to make that content accessible to all, then just making less of that content.

All dungeons and trials have normal modes for those who don't want to bother with builds and whatnot. And they've already made the new vet dungeons more accessible (which is a good thing imo).
Also, reducing overall dps would only make the community more toxic. Nowadays, you can carry a potato dd through most dungeons (for example, I did Icereach vet with someone who randomly spammed execute and died in every aoe, decided not to kick them because they were clearly new). Not being able to do so would just result in more kicks and salty whispers.
If they want to reduce overall dps across the board, they would also need to adjust the content. Otherwise it's a horrible idea from a social perspective.

Artanisul

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...

I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.

This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.

Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.

Your post seems to suggest I want to "improve the game for average players" in some way, suggests that was my focus at least. I never even thought that needed to be done. For the "average" player the game runs ok. Anyone can do overland content. As long as people do their job everyone can do normal mode dungeons...well any middle of the pack "average" player can.

What I am talking about is "fixing" the, in my opinion, terrible habit of jamming up the animations. It was why I predicted that "more changes are coming to the PTS." If they want to fix what I am talking about in all these posts they are going to have to limit the number of actions a player can shove down the servers throat and not allow ANY cancellations....or streamline animations so shortening them doesnt offer an advantage. One or the other would work.

I am fine with how the game plays for me. I am upper middle average....I think....lol
What started me thinking about all this was my poor wife. I showed her why I dont have issues with World bosses....she said it looks terrible and asked if I was exploiting....lol

THAT'S why I think things need "fixed." Also it's what I think the Devs are thinking.

LadyNalcarya

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Artanisul wrote: »

Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....

Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?

It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......

No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.

So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.

I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.

See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.

You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...

I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.

This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.

Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.

Your post seems to suggest I want to "improve the game for average players" in some way, suggests that was my focus at least. I never even thought that needed to be done. For the "average" player the game runs ok. Anyone can do overland content. As long as people do their job everyone can do normal mode dungeons...well any middle of the pack "average" player can.

What I am talking about is "fixing" the, in my opinion, terrible habit of jamming up the animations. It was why I predicted that "more changes are coming to the PTS." If they want to fix what I am talking about in all these posts they are going to have to limit the number of actions a player can shove down the servers throat and not allow ANY cancellations....or streamline animations so shortening them doesnt offer an advantage. One or the other would work.

I am fine with how the game plays for me. I am upper middle average....I think....lol
What started me thinking about all this was my poor wife. I showed her why I dont have issues with World bosses....she said it looks terrible and asked if I was exploiting....lol

THAT'S why I think things need "fixed." Also it's what I think the Devs are thinking.

But weaving is not going away. And there's no indication that they're going to remove it, they only said that they're not happy with players falling behind.
Do you remember that one time when they buffed light attack damage in an effort to help those players? It only increased the dps gap, and these changes will have the same effect because of bash weaving.

Also, the way you describe weaving sounds like you're doing it terribly wrong, mine just looks like I shoot a small fireball with every skill. This is why I think that ZOS must explain it in-game, there's way too many weird misconceptions about it. Me and my friends are often helping new players, and a lot of them are actually making it much more complicated than it's supposed to be.

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

It’s not a question of if it is “fair” or not to have a wide dps discrepancy, the question is if it is financially sustainable.

Wide discrepancy in dps lowers participation in dungeons, trials, arenas, and pvp.
If a person feels they are not capable of the dps required, or even worse, they are chased out of that content by over critical fellow players, they will not return. And that just leaves less available repeatable content for that player to do.

Zos “sells” two dungeon dlcs per year (roughly), they also introduce chapter’s with a new trial, and pvp players are always hungry for new content. But if a minority of players are doing them, what should the budget for this content be?

Having content that is essentially “exclusive” to a small segment of the player population is difficult to implement, especially when the demands of that small segment is so diverse.

It’s better to make that content accessible to all, then just making less of that content.

I was going to raise the exact same argument. From ZOS' perspective they want as many players as possible be interested in dungeons and trials as selling points for chapters. And even from an (average) consumer standpoint this just means more content.
What ZOS is proposing right now however is lowering the ceiling instead of raising the floor. And even worse yet, there is collateral damage that only affects people at the lower end of the DPS spectrum, so the gap widens. Thankfully there has already been constructive feedback about this which was officially acknowledged, so my hope is we'll see improvements on monday (or whenever the new PTS update comes).

ZOS needs to find a way to raise the floor without alienating the ceiling. Possibly by offering special rewards for the leader boards to encourage people at the ceiling to still try and be the very best like no one ever was. That way even though more people are able to clear hard content, there will still be a difference between the high skill/APM/DPS players and the "casuals".

TheFM

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Zenimax does have the means to track data for item sets which potions/poisons are used which abilities and play styles are the trending ones. They know dps numbers healing numbers and other stuff from the dungeons what the highest dps stats are and all that.

Zenimax can nerf things for any kind of reason from player demand, to some sets and skills trivializing content. But I think the biggest factors with this one is player base diversity. They want a diverse player base using what the game has to offer so to speak.
They flat out say this or strongly hint at this in the patch notes.

While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.

Here is the thing say there is this very great bis set that goes great with a meta build that is very popular.
Say this set called it Meta Mastery just a hypothetical example. This set is so popular because meta builds find it very useful now everyone is farming for it and using it. So you have like 60 to 70% of the player base using this set and only this set. Zenimax does keep track of the data they watch for this and they see it and they don't like it. Now they do a major game update that does a lot of things but then the Meta Mastery Set is nerfed why because to many players are using it.

That is the reason to many are using it for their liking and they must deal with that somehow. They must put a stop to that behavior because they see it as unhealthy and for an evolving game that offers more content over time that isn't a good thing to have. If they didn't nerf it then why use anything new why use all the other options?

This is what is happening with the Light Weaving, and this is something Zenimax has allowed to go on for a long time now they even put in a hint or something telling players how to do this. Over time more and more and more people learn to use it and well that gap between more Lower Apm that don't animation cancel as much or just uses a mix of heavy and light or just heavy is much wider to those that just light weave. This is the exact thing Zenimax will find ways to fix because it is unhealthy and worse its stagnancy and that is what I think is the true reason for this. When they mean wide, I think they mean to many players are using just this and that is likely the majority.

They want a healthy balance of people using it but not everyone using it and compared to other games that might not be nearly as Zealous about this. Zenimax is very Zealous about this and that is why these changes in some form will likely end up going to Live for that very reason. Because why use Heavy attack at all ? When Light attack is so much a better option? If it wasn't for the resource gain from Heavy attacks its possible players wouldn't even use it. So that is what these changes seem to be about. Narrowing that gap back down so not everyone is just using Light weaving but mixing it up. This does seem to be the outcome Zenimax is hoping and I believe they do want to see people mix up things by using light, medium and heavy attacks instead of just light weaving. Along with doing their normal light weaving along the way when it comes to resources and ability damage.

Except you will still be required to weave for regen. GG. Otherwise you will fall behind in damage. AGAIN. But keep those blinders on.

TheFM

casparian wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication.

And those dungeons come free with the base game. ZOS makes money by selling four DLC per year, and right now players' incentive to buy two of those four is locked behind an APM gate. ZOS' goal is exactly what they've been saying it is for years (raise the floor, lower the ceiling) because if they can successfully do that then they stand to make more money through DLC sales.

Funny how I can complete those dungeons on my pvp builds which have a maximum of 30 k dps, yet somehow people with similar dps INSIST they cant do it. Its just absurdly hilarious and transparent.