I'm not buying the "APM player skill gap" rhetoric from ZOS
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.
You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...
I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.
This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.
Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.
Your post seems to suggest I want to "improve the game for average players" in some way, suggests that was my focus at least. I never even thought that needed to be done. For the "average" player the game runs ok. Anyone can do overland content. As long as people do their job everyone can do normal mode dungeons...well any middle of the pack "average" player can.
What I am talking about is "fixing" the, in my opinion, terrible habit of jamming up the animations. It was why I predicted that "more changes are coming to the PTS." If they want to fix what I am talking about in all these posts they are going to have to limit the number of actions a player can shove down the servers throat and not allow ANY cancellations....or streamline animations so shortening them doesnt offer an advantage. One or the other would work.
I am fine with how the game plays for me. I am upper middle average....I think....lol
What started me thinking about all this was my poor wife. I showed her why I dont have issues with World bosses....she said it looks terrible and asked if I was exploiting....lol
THAT'S why I think things need "fixed." Also it's what I think the Devs are thinking.
Animations barely jam up. The entire premise of your arguement is weak here. Nearly every ability that adheres to the GCD is crafted in a way that its recovery animation plays out over the course of the GCD. The only clipping you are getting is with light and heavy attacks being cut off near their end with an ability cast a la weaving, which this new change is not even altering. Again the recovery animation of instant cast skills are almost universally animated to conclude within the GCD time.
If anything people are going to be more inclined to squeeze in bashes during the GCD refresh for a small dps gain now, despite how much that will stunt your stamina regen.
Imagine being this worked up over a minor basic attack clipping animation. Fundamental combat principles and a satisfying skill ceiling for those thst put in the work is more important than your immersion.6 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
OP is right I think and so are you.
If they ever made dungeons random group only I bet there’d be screaming to bring the floor up. One thing you forgot to mention: 3x more dps with the same gear.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
This is what I still cannot understand.
You're saying that a 3x skill gap is too much but what if the better player put in 10x or 50x the practice to get that 3x improvement? How can you possibly put a cap on how much better a person can be at anything given practice?
This is classic "wanting something for nothing" mentality. It's even worse because low-APM players have NOT been asking for an improvement in their skills. They've been asking for a REDUCTION IN THE OUTPUT of better players. That blows my mind. How many posts are there asking for any easier path to 35k DPS? I can't find one. But how many posts are there asking for LA weaving to be eliminated? plenty.7 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
This is what I still cannot understand.
You're saying that a 3x skill gap is too much but what if the better player put in 10x or 50x the practice to get that 3x improvement? How can you possibly put a cap on how much better a person can be at anything given practice?
This is classic "wanting something for nothing" mentality. It's even worse because low-APM players have NOT been asking for an improvement in their skills. They've been asking for a REDUCTION IN THE OUTPUT of better players. That blows my mind. How many posts are there asking for any easier path to 35k DPS? I can't find one. But how many posts are there asking for LA weaving to be eliminated? plenty.
That means the game is flawed if you got to put in that much work to have a huge gap from other players. This is suppose to be a elder scroll mmo. Many people still play this game like an elder scroll game that does not spam skills as fast as you can.4 -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
This is what I still cannot understand.
You're saying that a 3x skill gap is too much but what if the better player put in 10x or 50x the practice to get that 3x improvement? How can you possibly put a cap on how much better a person can be at anything given practice?
This is classic "wanting something for nothing" mentality. It's even worse because low-APM players have NOT been asking for an improvement in their skills. They've been asking for a REDUCTION IN THE OUTPUT of better players. That blows my mind. How many posts are there asking for any easier path to 35k DPS? I can't find one. But how many posts are there asking for LA weaving to be eliminated? plenty.
That means the game is flawed if you got to put in that much work to have a huge gap from other players. This is suppose to be a elder scroll mmo. Many people still play this game like an elder scroll game that does not spam skills as fast as you can.
But they could. That's my point. For the most part, higher APM players have no advantage over low-APM players other than time invested in learning and practicing. I'm 55 so don't tell me that older players can't improve.
If you DON'T want to practice and DON'T want to optimize and DON'T want to learn, that's FINE...the game has VOLUMES of content for you.
In addition to playing ESO, I race mountain bikes for fun. This whole high-APM vs. low-APM argument is even more laughable in other contexts. Like DPS, mountain bike race performance, at an amateur level, is largely dependent on time spent training. So how about if I pull up to my local race and say "Hey guys, I've only ridden a couple hours a month lately and I know a lot of you are riding 20+ hours a week. So I demand the race organizer limit eveyones' speed to my max speed."
5 -
Augustus67✭✭✭...
You used quite a few of charged words, over simplification and emotion up there. That snowflake thing though. You are the one coming across as snowflakey.
You want what you want and know you are right - because you are special and see things a special and better way. And those others are wrong and they are all the same and not snowflakes at all.
I don't care too much either way about the tweaking of LA weaving or APM as there are many, valid and varied points made by many players of all types. But, should this all really be such an emotionally charged issue? Do we need to be this worked up and spiteful over differing opinions?
What if your views and these differing views all have some validity? Is there not room for other snowflakes?
The reason this is an emotionally charged issue for some is that being better at a game than others is all they have to brag about in life...[snip]
[edited for baiting and bashing]Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on March 27, 2020 6:53PM2 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
This is what I still cannot understand.
You're saying that a 3x skill gap is too much but what if the better player put in 10x or 50x the practice to get that 3x improvement? How can you possibly put a cap on how much better a person can be at anything given practice?
This is classic "wanting something for nothing" mentality. It's even worse because low-APM players have NOT been asking for an improvement in their skills. They've been asking for a REDUCTION IN THE OUTPUT of better players. That blows my mind. How many posts are there asking for any easier path to 35k DPS? I can't find one. But how many posts are there asking for LA weaving to be eliminated? plenty.
That means the game is flawed if you got to put in that much work to have a huge gap from other players. This is suppose to be a elder scroll mmo. Many people still play this game like an elder scroll game that does not spam skills as fast as you can.
But they could. That's my point. For the most part, higher APM players have no advantage over low-APM players other than time invested in learning and practicing. I'm 55 so don't tell me that older players can't improve.
If you DON'T want to practice and DON'T want to optimize and DON'T want to learn, that's FINE...the game has VOLUMES of content for you.
In addition to playing ESO, I race mountain bikes for fun. This whole high-APM vs. low-APM argument is even more laughable in other contexts. Like DPS, mountain bike race performance, at an amateur level, is largely dependent on time spent training. So how about if I pull up to my local race and say "Hey guys, I've only ridden a couple hours a month lately and I know a lot of you are riding 20+ hours a week. So I demand the race organizer limit eveyones' speed to my max speed."
I mean you could learn how to do many things, does not mean people want to do it.
This is a good thing for everyone, a smaller gap means that when you group with these people who play like this, it causes less problems for you as well.
This is a good change for all.1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
This is what I still cannot understand.
You're saying that a 3x skill gap is too much but what if the better player put in 10x or 50x the practice to get that 3x improvement? How can you possibly put a cap on how much better a person can be at anything given practice?
This is classic "wanting something for nothing" mentality. It's even worse because low-APM players have NOT been asking for an improvement in their skills. They've been asking for a REDUCTION IN THE OUTPUT of better players. That blows my mind. How many posts are there asking for any easier path to 35k DPS? I can't find one. But how many posts are there asking for LA weaving to be eliminated? plenty.
Is your objection that inexperienced players will be brought higher or are you worried about top end players being brought down?Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
This is what I still cannot understand.
You're saying that a 3x skill gap is too much but what if the better player put in 10x or 50x the practice to get that 3x improvement? How can you possibly put a cap on how much better a person can be at anything given practice?
This is classic "wanting something for nothing" mentality. It's even worse because low-APM players have NOT been asking for an improvement in their skills. They've been asking for a REDUCTION IN THE OUTPUT of better players. That blows my mind. How many posts are there asking for any easier path to 35k DPS? I can't find one. But how many posts are there asking for LA weaving to be eliminated? plenty.
Is your objection that inexperienced players will be brought higher or are you worried about top end players being brought down?
The latter. But I also don't want to play a game that removes player skill, practice, and expertise from combat. And that is what many people on these boards are lobbying for.
My main point can be summarized easily:
The skill gap between high DPS and low DPS players exists primarily due to players' commitments to practicing and improving. It's natural and exists in virtually every activity known to man. And because there is significant content in the game for players at every skill level, there is NO need to bridge the skill gap.
Edited by krachall on March 27, 2020 5:37PM5 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »The closer they get to Elder Scrolls like Combat the better this game will be.
Many people who play this game, don't spam skills as fast as they can, and treat the game like elder scrolls lite. Sooooo this change is good.
Oh yeah, spamming right and left click brainlessly is totally fun, funny how there are 90348208492 mods to better the combat for skyrim because the combat was just horrid boring brainless nonsense.2 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »The closer they get to Elder Scrolls like Combat the better this game will be.
Many people who play this game, don't spam skills as fast as they can, and treat the game like elder scrolls lite. Sooooo this change is good.
Oh yeah, spamming right and left click brainlessly is totally fun, funny how there are 90348208492 mods to better the combat for skyrim because the combat was just horrid boring brainless nonsense.
I mean spamming keys to do skills is not that much more fun, and in fact it so much fun people use a glitch to cancel the animations just to get the most out of it.
Here is the thing, this combat we have now is tedious, and requires the wrong type of skill needed for it to be a good elder scrolls game.
Fast combat is fine, but making it brain dead RPM base that requires spamming as fast as the GCD lets you, just goes to show how poorly the combat really is.
More changes are coming after this, and I look forward to it.4 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Who decides what the floor is? If I want to sit and only light attack something then the top end dps will be 10 times better than me. Should I be considered the floor? Should we lower everything down to suit my unwillingness to actually use skills? And I would say, top end dps is no where near 3 times better than average, not even twice. Top end is, lets say around 90k on 21m dummy. I’m pretty sure I can hit 45k by just heavy attacking it down. I will have to test this : )3 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭Thevampirenight wrote: »Zenimax does have the means to track data for item sets which potions/poisons are used which abilities and play styles are the trending ones. They know dps numbers healing numbers and other stuff from the dungeons what the highest dps stats are and all that.
Zenimax can nerf things for any kind of reason from player demand, to some sets and skills trivializing content. But I think the biggest factors with this one is player base diversity. They want a diverse player base using what the game has to offer so to speak.
They flat out say this or strongly hint at this in the patch notes.
While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.
Here is the thing say there is this very great bis set that goes great with a meta build that is very popular.
Say this set called it Meta Mastery just a hypothetical example. This set is so popular because meta builds find it very useful now everyone is farming for it and using it. So you have like 60 to 70% of the player base using this set and only this set. Zenimax does keep track of the data they watch for this and they see it and they don't like it. Now they do a major game update that does a lot of things but then the Meta Mastery Set is nerfed why because to many players are using it.
That is the reason to many are using it for their liking and they must deal with that somehow. They must put a stop to that behavior because they see it as unhealthy and for an evolving game that offers more content over time that isn't a good thing to have. If they didn't nerf it then why use anything new why use all the other options?
This is what is happening with the Light Weaving, and this is something Zenimax has allowed to go on for a long time now they even put in a hint or something telling players how to do this. Over time more and more and more people learn to use it and well that gap between more Lower Apm that don't animation cancel as much or just uses a mix of heavy and light or just heavy is much wider to those that just light weave. This is the exact thing Zenimax will find ways to fix because it is unhealthy and worse its stagnancy and that is what I think is the true reason for this. When they mean wide, I think they mean to many players are using just this and that is likely the majority.
They want a healthy balance of people using it but not everyone using it and compared to other games that might not be nearly as Zealous about this. Zenimax is very Zealous about this and that is why these changes in some form will likely end up going to Live for that very reason. Because why use Heavy attack at all ? When Light attack is so much a better option? If it wasn't for the resource gain from Heavy attacks its possible players wouldn't even use it. So that is what these changes seem to be about. Narrowing that gap back down so not everyone is just using Light weaving but mixing it up. This does seem to be the outcome Zenimax is hoping and I believe they do want to see people mix up things by using light, medium and heavy attacks instead of just light weaving. Along with doing their normal light weaving along the way when it comes to resources and ability damage.
Except you will still be required to weave for regen. GG. Otherwise you will fall behind in damage. AGAIN. But keep those blinders on.
I don’t see myself adding heavy attacks to my rotation, as things currently stand. Testers have shown that light attack weaving, while doing way less damage, is still doing significantly more than most heavy attack rotations. Maybe a couple of setups will be able to make some heavy attack builds viable, but as a whole people who were not using heavy attacks before, will not use them now. And regen is really no issue, currently, so the regen on light attacks is basically useless. Maybe healers will be able to change out some regen sets for more group damage sets.1 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »
Go read patch notes. And maybe play some TES games, at least Skyrim. You either have no idea how TES combat works, or what the proposed changes are, or maybe both. No offence, but it's like arguing that the Earth is a cube.
Or maybe we just don't agree? Either way, I feel the same way as you. Did you play elder scrolls games? But hey, it is fine to disagree.
i gave details in why I felt the way I do, and how focus on light and heavy attacks is part of elder scrolls. Changing it up, is a good sign. All you done is call me a troll and question if I played something. In the future, don't assume so much ok?
But what if they actually want to transform ESO into a Dark Souls game?
Now it all makes sense, these games are also focused on light and heavy attacks!
Seriously, if you want to discuss something, at least read patch notes. There's nothing even remotely similar to single-player TES games.
P.S. And you should give Skyrim a try, it's a pretty amazing game.
Ah the classic strawman. When you start losing in logic, you resort to this. Classic.
Skyrim is a amazing game, The only thing I think is the problem is that you mod your skyrim to the point that you don't recall how it really is. But that would ME assuming at this point.
I mean, at least I'm not trying to argue about changes without knowing what the changes are. Well if this goes live, you should expect a big surprise!
Since you assume that I don't know, I'm starting to think maybe you don't? Because this is a change in how attacks itself work. and im sure more is coming. But here let me teach you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo9H_cvmX9c
A nice video for you to learn.2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Who decides what the floor is? If I want to sit and only light attack something then the top end dps will be 10 times better than me. Should I be considered the floor? Should we lower everything down to suit my unwillingness to actually use skills? And I would say, top end dps is no where near 3 times better than average, not even twice. Top end is, lets say around 90k on 21m dummy. I’m pretty sure I can hit 45k by just heavy attacking it down. I will have to test this : )
I only started in summerset and still remember what I thought about some mechanics when I began playing ESO. I struggled and was at about 10k dps when I was CP160, then I read about the whole light attack thing.
I think people are trying to do better dps, it’s not like (at least me) I’m talking about light attack spammers. There’s a huge portion of the population that’s stuck around the 30k dps mark. They’re using the right abilities in a rotation, but can’t get the LA weaving down.
When I started here were the kind of questions I asked:
Why are some animations longer so interfere with the next skill being cast? That’s dumb.
So it was an oversight the devs rolled with that people could light attack and then use a skill immediately on the skill GCD? Okay. So why did they double down on it and make abilities proc off light attacks and add empower, then buff light attack damage?
Personally I think other games have the gap between the bottom and top a little better. With the same gear level and skills a perfect rotation could be 50k, a new player 30k. Not a top player 60k and a new player 10k. 6x is a bit much if the person’s trying their best.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »rager82b14_ESO wrote: »The closer they get to Elder Scrolls like Combat the better this game will be.
Many people who play this game, don't spam skills as fast as they can, and treat the game like elder scrolls lite. Sooooo this change is good.
Oh yeah the classic TES combat experience
https://youtu.be/bNXYrAkUntU
Have you ever played non-modded TES?
Yes, and it is better than this combat we have now in this butchered bad combat system, that people use a glitch to make better.
Many people for years, been asking for them to update the combat to make it better, only to have a few people who keep abusing glitches to make the combat super fast. Enough is Enough.
I get that you're trolling, but it's really sad that devs are reading this as legit feedback.
Really? Kid listen...just because we don't agree with each other does not mean I am trolling. When you grow up a little, and understand that just because you don't see eye to eye on something, does not mean it is a troll.
To ignore a huge party of the community that has been asking them to change this combat, because it is bad..and people exploit a glitch just to make it fun for them. We been calling the developers out for years. You might be new, so I will say you have not been around to see the out cry that many players had about the weakest part of this game. The combat.
You can disagree with me, but I will respect you enough not to call you a troll. Are we clear?
Crystal. Lol
What glitch are you talking about? Can’t be light attack weaving, because ZOS has even gone so far as to post light attack weaving tips on load screens. I doubt they would promote exploiting a glitch. Maybe it’s the word “weaving“ that throws people off. Just simply light attack before every skill. That’s all. You “weave” a light attack before every skill. Light attack skill, light attack skill. People make this way more difficult than it needs to be.3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rager82b14_ESO wrote: »The closer they get to Elder Scrolls like Combat the better this game will be.
Many people who play this game, don't spam skills as fast as they can, and treat the game like elder scrolls lite. Sooooo this change is good.
Oh yeah, spamming right and left click brainlessly is totally fun, funny how there are 90348208492 mods to better the combat for skyrim because the combat was just horrid boring brainless nonsense.
Weaving sounds like it would still be useful to do. So I don't really see anything changing in that respect.
These changes seem directed to make weaving and animation canceling less effective in terms of damage. And that's for the best I believe, especially in PvP where players were taking advantage of it to do insane burst damage - often coordinated and with the assistance of macros. So this should close the gap considerably in PvP and allow more players the chance to fight back and enjoy themselves instead of just going splat.0 -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here's a silly little analogy to demonstrate what I'm seeing.
*fade from black*
Scene: An eCommerce distribution center where an Order Picker is talking to his boss.
(Background data: Order Pickers are often measured in terms of "Picks Per Hour" or PPH)
Low_PPH: Hey boss, I just found out that my Coworker, High_PPH, made $55,000 last year! I do the same job and only made $37k.
Boss: Yeah, I'm not surprised. Let me look at some data...ok, yeah, I see it here. Looks like High_PPH worked 2250 hours last year. You worked 1800.
Low_PPH: Oh, well, yeah, I have some home issues that prevent me from working that much!
Boss: Also, High_PPH does 400 picks per hour when she's working. You do...let's see...180.
Low_PPH: Well yeah, have you seen High_PPH work? She's amazing. She's figured out really efficient ways to move around the warehouse and she practices on her scan gun when things are slow. She also uses slow times to walk the warehouse and learn our locations so that when things are busy, she knows right where to go.
Boss: So couldn't you do that?
Low_PPH: No way. I'd rather browse social media on my phone when things are slow.
Boss: So you're asking me to pay you $55k per year even though you work less, perform worse, and have no interest in improving?
Low_PPH: NO! I'm asking you to pay High_PPH $37k per year like you pay me!1 -
ZOS_FalcoYamaokaadminGreetings,
We had to remove some posts as it violated our rules around baiting. Please be sure to keep discussions on civil and constructive. If you have any questions about the actions taken, please take a moment to review our community rules here.0 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
The problem is that most players are unaware of how the game works, and this is what causes this discrepancy. So they should just teach players instead of butchering game mechanics.
The difference in static rotation is not 3x, you can get something like 60k on a raid dummy with a beginner setup (Julianos etc). Those who pull 5-10k dps just don't have any rotation, static or otherwise. Most of the time it's not their fault, the game doesn't tell them how to play it.
Actually, this is one of the things that make Dark Souls difficult. If the game doesn't tell you what to do and where to go, most players will fail. It doesn't mean they're stupid or anything, it's just human nature. So ZOS needs to do something about that to make the game more accessible to those who don't have time or motivation to watch youtube guides.
P.S. Oh and also people should stop comparing 3mil dummy parses with raid dummy parses. This is where a lot of comparisons fail, like "I only do 20k and this guy pulls 90k, this is unfair!". 20k on a 3 mil would easily transform into 40k on iron atronach.
That’s a good point. I often feel like people are talking apples and oranges. People say “I can only hit 35k while others are hitting 90k.” They have to be talking about 35k on the 3m dummy. For the record, no one hits 90k on the 3m dummy : ) I could probably heavy attack a 21m dummy down and hit 35k. I think this needs to be better explained. People say top end dps hits 3 times better than the average. That is just totally false. Not even close. Probably closer to like 30% for top top end, not 300%.1 -
daemonor✭✭✭✭weaving is NOT going away. So what if the light attack damage is nerfed? The top dogs will do 75k dps instead of 90k but so will the underdogs, unless there's a way to weave in heavies to bring the dps higher, if not the sustain issue will be permamently solved since you don't ever have to heavy attack for resources, just weave skills and las so there's even less playstyle diversity. I've written all of the above with PvE in mind.
[Edit to remove bait]Edited by [Deleted User] on March 27, 2020 10:07PM2 -
Stevie6✭✭✭✭Simple solution for lag, no damage skills, lack luster feel to combat, and just about everything else...Roll back to Pre Morrowind. Everything worked, we had shields, damage, and sustain. Sustain shouldn’t be tied to la, ma, or ha. It should be added to both race and class passives. By putting everything back, it should lessen the inputs to the server and ultimately less lag.
Pvp and pve needs to be separate and not bound to the same damage stats on all skills. This way every player will have the damage in pve and nerfbat skills while in bg or cyrodiil pvp. This isn’t ideal but it’s better than today’s live server.3 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Who decides what the floor is? If I want to sit and only light attack something then the top end dps will be 10 times better than me. Should I be considered the floor? Should we lower everything down to suit my unwillingness to actually use skills? And I would say, top end dps is no where near 3 times better than average, not even twice. Top end is, lets say around 90k on 21m dummy. I’m pretty sure I can hit 45k by just heavy attacking it down. I will have to test this : )
I only started in summerset and still remember what I thought about some mechanics when I began playing ESO. I struggled and was at about 10k dps when I was CP160, then I read about the whole light attack thing.
I think people are trying to do better dps, it’s not like (at least me) I’m talking about light attack spammers. There’s a huge portion of the population that’s stuck around the 30k dps mark. They’re using the right abilities in a rotation, but can’t get the LA weaving down.
When I started here were the kind of questions I asked:
Why are some animations longer so interfere with the next skill being cast? That’s dumb.
So it was an oversight the devs rolled with that people could light attack and then use a skill immediately on the skill GCD? Okay. So why did they double down on it and make abilities proc off light attacks and add empower, then buff light attack damage?
Personally I think other games have the gap between the bottom and top a little better. With the same gear level and skills a perfect rotation could be 50k, a new player 30k. Not a top player 60k and a new player 10k. 6x is a bit much if the person’s trying their best.
You were that low because you were cp 160, not because of light attacks, omg. xD2 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
If animation cancelling made any sense at all, you wouldn't have to explain to people to do it. They'd automatically be trying to do it.
When people automatically try something because it would make sense to be able to do it, that's called intuitive design.
When people have to be told to do something that makes no sense, especially no real world sense, that's called unintuitive design.
Somehow squeezing out a near-zero-time-cost attack in between other attacks because you cancelled the animation makes no sense at all. That's why new players don't even think to do it.
Same with heavy attack -- a big-effort windup for a big attack somehow energizes you instead of tires you? Really? Especially coming from TES games like Oblivion, where a heavy attack actually cost you more stamina and makes more sense that way.
Now they're thinking of introducing a change where Light Attacking will probably energize you more than just not attacking and resting.Edited by Dusk_Coven on March 27, 2020 9:44PM0 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
If animation cancelling made any sense at all, you wouldn't have to explain to people to do it. They'd automatically be trying to do it.
When people automatically try something because it would make sense to be able to do it, that's called intuitive design.
When people have to be told to do something that makes no sense, especially no real world sense, that's called unintuitive design.
Somehow squeezing out a near-zero-time-cost attack in between other attacks because you cancelled the animation makes no sense at all. That's why new players don't even think to do it.
Same with heavy attack -- a big-effort windup for a big attack somehow energizes you instead of tires you? Really? Especially coming from TES games like Oblivion, where a heavy attack actually cost you more stamina and makes more sense that way.
Now they're thinking of introducing a change where Light Attacking will probably energize you more than just not attacking and resting.
That is what I've been saying for awhile now. Like, it is a glitch that the developers did not know how to fix so called it a feature. In a rpg it makes no sense at all.1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »
If animation cancelling made any sense at all, you wouldn't have to explain to people to do it. They'd automatically be trying to do it.
When people automatically try something because it would make sense to be able to do it, that's called intuitive design.
When people have to be told to do something that makes no sense, especially no real world sense, that's called unintuitive design.
Somehow squeezing out a near-zero-time-cost attack in between other attacks because you cancelled the animation makes no sense at all. That's why new players don't even think to do it.
Same with heavy attack -- a big-effort windup for a big attack somehow energizes you instead of tires you? Really? Especially coming from TES games like Oblivion, where a heavy attack actually cost you more stamina and makes more sense that way.
Now they're thinking of introducing a change where Light Attacking will probably energize you more than just not attacking and resting.
So its unintuitive design to have abilities because there are People in Dungeons that spam only light attack despite having 5 ability and one ultimate Slot?Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.5 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »
If animation cancelling made any sense at all, you wouldn't have to explain to people to do it. They'd automatically be trying to do it.
When people automatically try something because it would make sense to be able to do it, that's called intuitive design.
When people have to be told to do something that makes no sense, especially no real world sense, that's called unintuitive design.
Somehow squeezing out a near-zero-time-cost attack in between other attacks because you cancelled the animation makes no sense at all. That's why new players don't even think to do it.
Same with heavy attack -- a big-effort windup for a big attack somehow energizes you instead of tires you? Really? Especially coming from TES games like Oblivion, where a heavy attack actually cost you more stamina and makes more sense that way.
Now they're thinking of introducing a change where Light Attacking will probably energize you more than just not attacking and resting.
So its unintuitive design to have abilities because there are People in Dungeons that spam only light attack despite having 5 ability and one ultimate Slot?
Nope!
I think we can all agree it's ok to have Abilities. So since we all agree I guess you won! You got your point across and convinced us all! YAY!
Thanks....2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Who decides what the floor is? If I want to sit and only light attack something then the top end dps will be 10 times better than me. Should I be considered the floor? Should we lower everything down to suit my unwillingness to actually use skills? And I would say, top end dps is no where near 3 times better than average, not even twice. Top end is, lets say around 90k on 21m dummy. I’m pretty sure I can hit 45k by just heavy attacking it down. I will have to test this : )
I only started in summerset and still remember what I thought about some mechanics when I began playing ESO. I struggled and was at about 10k dps when I was CP160, then I read about the whole light attack thing.
I think people are trying to do better dps, it’s not like (at least me) I’m talking about light attack spammers. There’s a huge portion of the population that’s stuck around the 30k dps mark. They’re using the right abilities in a rotation, but can’t get the LA weaving down.
When I started here were the kind of questions I asked:
Why are some animations longer so interfere with the next skill being cast? That’s dumb.
So it was an oversight the devs rolled with that people could light attack and then use a skill immediately on the skill GCD? Okay. So why did they double down on it and make abilities proc off light attacks and add empower, then buff light attack damage?
Personally I think other games have the gap between the bottom and top a little better. With the same gear level and skills a perfect rotation could be 50k, a new player 30k. Not a top player 60k and a new player 10k. 6x is a bit much if the person’s trying their best.
You were that low because you were cp 160, not because of light attacks, omg. xD
Yea, right now LAs are being changed, but it’s all part of the big picture. CPs is a huge contributing factor, bringing up the floor of low dps to hit 30k if someone is trying would be good too.
If you’ve ever healed and been more than half the group’s damage or queued as a tank you’ll know what I mean. Queuing as a tank can be painful in pve.Edited by Iskiab on March 27, 2020 10:29PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nope!
I think we can all agree it's ok to have Abilities. So since we all agree I guess you won! You got your point across and convinced us all! YAY!
Thanks....
Previous criteria established that something was unintuitive as soon as it needed to be explained to someone by another Player or not everyone is doing it automatically.
Well I´ve had to explain People in Dungeons that abilities boost your Damage and your survivability and they were most certainly not trying out abilities automatically since they were just spamming bow light attacks. Therefore, according to critera established not by me but the guy I quoted, having abilities is unintuitive design.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Who decides what the floor is? If I want to sit and only light attack something then the top end dps will be 10 times better than me. Should I be considered the floor? Should we lower everything down to suit my unwillingness to actually use skills? And I would say, top end dps is no where near 3 times better than average, not even twice. Top end is, lets say around 90k on 21m dummy. I’m pretty sure I can hit 45k by just heavy attacking it down. I will have to test this : )
I only started in summerset and still remember what I thought about some mechanics when I began playing ESO. I struggled and was at about 10k dps when I was CP160, then I read about the whole light attack thing.
I think people are trying to do better dps, it’s not like (at least me) I’m talking about light attack spammers. There’s a huge portion of the population that’s stuck around the 30k dps mark. They’re using the right abilities in a rotation, but can’t get the LA weaving down.
When I started here were the kind of questions I asked:
Why are some animations longer so interfere with the next skill being cast? That’s dumb.
So it was an oversight the devs rolled with that people could light attack and then use a skill immediately on the skill GCD? Okay. So why did they double down on it and make abilities proc off light attacks and add empower, then buff light attack damage?
Personally I think other games have the gap between the bottom and top a little better. With the same gear level and skills a perfect rotation could be 50k, a new player 30k. Not a top player 60k and a new player 10k. 6x is a bit much if the person’s trying their best.
You were that low because you were cp 160, not because of light attacks, omg. xD
Yea, right now LAs are being changed, but it’s all part of the big picture. CPs is a huge contributing factor, bringing up the floor of low dps to hit 30k if someone is trying would be good too.
If you’ve ever healed and been more than half the group’s damage or queued as a tank you’ll know what I mean. Queuing as a tank can be painful in pve.
Ive tanked, healed, and done dps , no issues. Even with arthritis and not so great eyes. The power gap between cp 160 and 810 IS MONSTROUS. Thats why your damage was so bad. They should have just reduced the strength of the light attack star , THATS IT, but instead we have this dumpster fire of a suggestion now.
AND its not set in stone, these changes have had more of a negative backlash than the shield cast time proposal that got dumped way back, so dont count your chickens yet, there is a very good possibility this never sees the light of day in its current iteration.0
This discussion has been closed.