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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8235739/
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I'm not buying the "APM player skill gap" rhetoric from ZOS
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Artanisul✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.
You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...
I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.
This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.
Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.
Your post seems to suggest I want to "improve the game for average players" in some way, suggests that was my focus at least. I never even thought that needed to be done. For the "average" player the game runs ok. Anyone can do overland content. As long as people do their job everyone can do normal mode dungeons...well any middle of the pack "average" player can.
What I am talking about is "fixing" the, in my opinion, terrible habit of jamming up the animations. It was why I predicted that "more changes are coming to the PTS." If they want to fix what I am talking about in all these posts they are going to have to limit the number of actions a player can shove down the servers throat and not allow ANY cancellations....or streamline animations so shortening them doesnt offer an advantage. One or the other would work.
I am fine with how the game plays for me. I am upper middle average....I think....lol
What started me thinking about all this was my poor wife. I showed her why I dont have issues with World bosses....she said it looks terrible and asked if I was exploiting....lol
THAT'S why I think things need "fixed." Also it's what I think the Devs are thinking.
But weaving is not going away. And there's no indication that they're going to remove it, they only said that they're not happy with players falling behind.
Do you remember that one time when they buffed light attack damage in an effort to help those players? It only increased the dps gap, and these changes will have the same effect because of bash weaving.
Also, the way you describe weaving sounds like you're doing it terribly wrong, mine just looks like I shoot a small fireball with every skill. This is why I think that ZOS must explain it in-game, there's way too many weird misconceptions about it. Me and my friends are often helping new players, and a lot of them are actually making it much more complicated than it's supposed to be.
What I am doing has tripled my Damage, at least. Same gear sets, same skill bars. My wife lets her character use each skill and light attacks. I Jam up my rotation with LA/blocks/bash/skill plays and I do WAY more damage and am seldom in danger of death. We are both mobile as we dance around the target avoiding AOE.
I burn WAY more Magika and she never has used a potion.
That in and of itself proves my point that skills are played faster just by resources being used faster. It also turns my character into a monkey bashing a toy on the ground visually.
It really does help that I can see how she plays as a player and not just watching her character perform.
Thank you for your constructive discussion and Especially for helping the new people out there. That is fantastic!0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It’s not a question of if it is “fair” or not to have a wide dps discrepancy, the question is if it is financially sustainable.
Wide discrepancy in dps lowers participation in dungeons, trials, arenas, and pvp.
If a person feels they are not capable of the dps required, or even worse, they are chased out of that content by over critical fellow players, they will not return. And that just leaves less available repeatable content for that player to do.
Zos “sells” two dungeon dlcs per year (roughly), they also introduce chapter’s with a new trial, and pvp players are always hungry for new content. But if a minority of players are doing them, what should the budget for this content be?
Having content that is essentially “exclusive” to a small segment of the player population is difficult to implement, especially when the demands of that small segment is so diverse.
It’s better to make that content accessible to all, then just making less of that content.
I was going to raise the exact same argument. From ZOS' perspective they want as many players as possible be interested in dungeons and trials as selling points for chapters. And even from an (average) consumer standpoint this just means more content.
What ZOS is proposing right now however is lowering the ceiling instead of raising the floor. And even worse yet, there is collateral damage that only affects people at the lower end of the DPS spectrum, so the gap widens. Thankfully there has already been constructive feedback about this which was officially acknowledged, so my hope is we'll see improvements on monday (or whenever the new PTS update comes).
ZOS needs to find a way to raise the floor without alienating the ceiling. Possibly by offering special rewards for the leader boards to encourage people at the ceiling to still try and be the very best like no one ever was. That way even though more people are able to clear hard content, there will still be a difference between the high skill/APM/DPS players and the "casuals".
I absolutely agree.
I really hate those sweeping nerfs and buffs because they're ruining the bridge between "casual" and "elite", making the community more toxic. Massive nerfs destroy progression groups, casual raiding guilds and such because they simply cannot keep up with these random changes and are disheartened after losing their progress. And those are the people who could teach new players, provide them a friendly environment to learn group content.
This is not just a technical issue, it's also social.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU6 -
parpin✭✭✭if i wanted to make people to do mechanics of boss fight, i would make boss invulnerable unless you do the mechanics, no matter how fast you reach 80%, at 80% you have to do certain stuff to make the boss vulnerable again, and then goes for 60%, this is just an example, there are many ways to make boss fight interesting and challenging without having to rely on dps, there are many interesting boss fights that you can not ignore mechanics by just dpsing the boss, the most lazy way and cheap way of making thing challenging is to nerf the dps to ground, the zos is doing it apparently, but overall if this new combat system goes live, it will have bad and negative impact on the game, so far from the so called feedback thread i red, most people are against it, we have to wait and see anyways. we will see.3 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭if i wanted to make people to do mechanics of boss fight, i would make boss invulnerable unless you do the mechanics, no matter how fast you reach 80%, at 80% you have to do certain stuff to make the boss vulnerable again, and then goes for 60%, this is just an example, there are many ways to make boss fight interesting and challenging without having to rely on dps, there are many interesting boss fights that you can not ignore mechanics by just dpsing the boss, the most lazy way and cheap way of making thing challenging is to nerf the dps to ground, the zos is doing it apparently, but overall if this new combat system goes live, it will have bad and negative impact on the game, so far from the so called feedback thread i red, most people are against it, we have to wait and see anyways. we will see.
Getting strong SWG vibes from these changes.0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
The problem is that most players are unaware of how the game works, and this is what causes this discrepancy. So they should just teach players instead of butchering game mechanics.
The difference in static rotation is not 3x, you can get something like 60k on a raid dummy with a beginner setup (Julianos etc). Those who pull 5-10k dps just don't have any rotation, static or otherwise. Most of the time it's not their fault, the game doesn't tell them how to play it.
Actually, this is one of the things that make Dark Souls difficult. If the game doesn't tell you what to do and where to go, most players will fail. It doesn't mean they're stupid or anything, it's just human nature. So ZOS needs to do something about that to make the game more accessible to those who don't have time or motivation to watch youtube guides.
P.S. Oh and also people should stop comparing 3mil dummy parses with raid dummy parses. This is where a lot of comparisons fail, like "I only do 20k and this guy pulls 90k, this is unfair!". 20k on a 3 mil would easily transform into 40k on iron atronach.
I don’t want to have to watch videos of someone doing something just to be able to copy that. Some these things need to be more intuitive and possibly less punishing.vamp_emily wrote: »Am I missing something? I don't see the issue with the change they are making to LA.
Lets say I walked up to you and gave you a light slap on the face? Would it hurt? More than likely not. If I took a frying pan pulled back as far as I could and then hit you on the head, would it hurt? ( I'm sure it would )
Light attacks are quick attacks that should do less damage, Heavy attacks take longer to execute and should do more damage.
Obviously I'm missing something.
We’re not lightly slapping you with an open hand. We’re shooting flameing fire balls at you from a fire stick or swinging some gigantic great sword at you; making enough contact to call it a lite attack.
It’s a good analogy you got there, but they really did go a bit too far with the damage reduction. It is a good move for heavy attacks though. They were made weak for far too long imo.
Do light attacks feel overpowered in some way on live? They seem fine to me, IDK? What about heavy attacks? They are somewhat disappointing on live. Feels like they should definitely do more damage than they do.
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iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Not "average". Only bad players have dps 1/3 of good players. Light attack spammers should NOT be rewarded with greater dps (by changing to heavy attacks)
Instead skills should be buffed with a significant but not crippling nerf to light attacks4 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the pedestal that some players have put themselves on is crumbling and they simply dont like the fact that other players will now be able to do the content they can.............and i dont think they like that idea very much. and thats the real problem with the proposed changes5 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »It’s not a question of if it is “fair” or not to have a wide dps discrepancy, the question is if it is financially sustainable.
Wide discrepancy in dps lowers participation in dungeons, trials, arenas, and pvp.
If a person feels they are not capable of the dps required, or even worse, they are chased out of that content by over critical fellow players, they will not return. And that just leaves less available repeatable content for that player to do.
Zos “sells” two dungeon dlcs per year (roughly), they also introduce chapter’s with a new trial, and pvp players are always hungry for new content. But if a minority of players are doing them, what should the budget for this content be?
Having content that is essentially “exclusive” to a small segment of the player population is difficult to implement, especially when the demands of that small segment is so diverse.
It’s better to make that content accessible to all, then just making less of that content.
All dungeons and trials have normal modes for those who don't want to bother with builds and whatnot. And they've already made the new vet dungeons more accessible (which is a good thing imo).
Also, reducing overall dps would only make the community more toxic. Nowadays, you can carry a potato dd through most dungeons (for example, I did Icereach vet with someone who randomly spammed execute and died in every aoe, decided not to kick them because they were clearly new). Not being able to do so would just result in more kicks and salty whispers.
If they want to reduce overall dps across the board, they would also need to adjust the content. Otherwise it's a horrible idea from a social perspective.
If a player can do a trial or dungeon with friends is one matter, but even pugging a normal trial/dungeon with strangers can be very intimidating. Even if a player has the required dps they may feel embarrassed by their own low dps.
And then there is the problem of pvp, and the unbalanced top and bottom dps between them.
Raising the “floor” up, or lowering the “ceiling” down is just numbers. Would it be better to do a bit of both? Maybe. In either case, they just want to get the discrepancy smaller.
Also remember, rather recently, there was a cry on the forums that the “overland” content being too easy. This lowering of the top dps may also be in response to that.
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LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »the pedestal that some players have put themselves on is crumbling and they simply dont like the fact that other players will now be able to do the content they can.............and i dont think they like that idea very much. and thats the real problem with the proposed changes
Except that this is not the case?
They're not gonna teach players, they're not gonna buff slower builds (losing sustain from heavy attacks is not going to compensate for a little bit of extra damage, and werewolf builds are getting nerf after nerf), and on top of that they're going to promote bash weaving meta (so one more action per second). The dps requirements of dungeons and trials are going to stay the same, there will just be less players that are able to meet them.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU7 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭So once again, ZOS is considering making massive, sweeping changes to the combat system -- changes you'd more expect to see from a game in early beta than a game celebrating it's sixth year. And this time we have a whole new set of reasons that I don't recall ever being discussed in such detail: the gap between high-APM players and low-APM players.
I'm not buying it...but I think the last 18 months of progressive skill nerfs combined with the changes currently on the PTS give a clue as to ZOS true goal.
First, as to why I don't believe that the high-APM vs. low-APM gap is the issue. Don't get me wrong, I totally recognize there's a gap and it's a big one. I was a very low APM player and have spent a significant portion of my play time increasing my DPS...er...sorry, APM. My first ever dummy parse was 8k DPS. I'm now at around 35k on that same dummy. Yes, there are players who don't bother to learn the game's combat mechanics and don't want to optimize their character and don't want to practice on a dummy. And there are players who are willing to do anything they can do maximize their damage. There's a gap for sure.
But, to ZOS' immense credit, there is significant content in the game for that entire range of players. There are four-man dungeons that a group of low-APM players can complete and the rewards of that dungeon are commensurate to both their skill and dedication. And there are dungeons that a group of perfectly optimized high-APM players are challenged by and can complete. There's content so hard that only a handful of players have completed it. And there's something for everyone in between.
So while there is certainly a skill gap, I fail to see what that is such a massive problem that it requires a massive change to the games core combat mechanics.
I think there are, instead, two reasons for the latest round changes on the PTS: 1) Lowering overall damage to force more players to follow dungeon design choreography and 2) improving server performance.
I'm not going to theorize on the latter, as I think most people recognize that thinly-veiled objective. But I'll explain the first.
I'm guessing that when ZOS designs an encounter, they use a baseline group DPS number to plan the mechanics and expect the players to follow the very specific choreography they built. An over-simplified example would be "At 40,000 group DPS, the boss will be at about 80% health when we want them to put their right hand and green and their left foot on yellow. Then we'll make this and that happen until they DPS the boss to 60% where we want them to put right foot blue and left hand red..."
But when a group is doing 80,000 DPS, they start ignoring some of these lovingly designed mechanics and either burn through them or heal through them. At 120,000 (and I'm making these numbers up) they play less Twister. And 160,000, they aren't even playing Twister at all.
Here's a kinda-real-game example. Take the final round of the final boss of Stage 9 of vMA (after you've broken the three crystals). Here's how three different players approach the encounter:
Low-APM: Attack boss. Watch for gold ghosts. When they spawn, collect them. Once you have all three, activate synergy and stun the arena. DPS boss more. Watch for summoners. Leave boss to kill summoners. Return to boss. Collect gold ghosts. Kill summoners. Repeat until boss dies. Collect reward.
Med-APM: Attack boss. Prevent gold ghosts from reaching boss. DPS until boss teleports. Chase, bash, DPS. Chase, bash, DPS. Collect reward.
High-APM: DPS boss. Collect reward.
When you look back at the series of huge nerfs to skills over the last 18 months (DD skills...then AOE's...then DOTs...then AOEs again) and now the testing of LA's and HA's, I don't think this has anything to do with "low APM players not enjoying the climb" as much as it has to do with ZOS's frustration with people not following their prescribed encounter choreography step by step.
The problem was never in the associated dps mechanics of ani canceling or weaving though it was a stupid choice. the problem was and will always be is the game failed even remotely take into consideration the other roles and mechanics that make group play fun. Tanking healing crowd control and utility are non existent. They are all really just by products and novelty associated with dps.in trials instead of the group working together it becomes a competition of who can individually produce the highest dps number. Even the so called tank and healer are trying to reach a dps number and their primary function ,abilities and build have be one a after thought in the dynamic.Zos failed to emerge enrich or expand the mechanics of this game in any direction. Instead the homogenized and took away any individuality form roles or builds. They make money of of reselling you leveling content with no levels or enriched game evolving skills,builds ,or role definition. The latest combat changes are nothing more then homogenized game play . It's sad when there is more definition in a rudimentary game system like diablo 3 a isometric arpg that was just a hack and slasher zerg. This game does not even do the single player rpg thing well. Hell the garbage star wars game does it better.1 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just don't see how it hurts anyone to have high and low APM/DPS. Just keeping people from burning through content and getting bored quicker? If you work hard at getting all the right gear, rotation etc to get high DPS then I'm the type of person who enjoys just blasting the crap out of mobs. If you take that away then I'd find another game considering I'd spent a lot of time getting there and it's what i enjoy. I personally don't care to have high DPS I just like mid level but why normalize everything? Seems to be more cookie cutter the more updates we get which is BORING.2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
They're not fixing anything. They're widening the skill gap because bash weave will be incorporated into a rotation to regain some of the DPS loss, and bash weave is higher APM than la weave.
I still don't get people who ask for animation canceling to be removed because they want to see the full animation play out. That's like me asking ZOS to remove roleplaying because I don't like to see them around Tamriel. I mean if you want to watch animations, then don't animation cancel, how easy is that? You probably won't be invited to many trial groups, but why does it matter?Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc6 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »the pedestal that some players have put themselves on is crumbling and they simply dont like the fact that other players will now be able to do the content they can.............and i dont think they like that idea very much. and thats the real problem with the proposed changes
Except that this is not the case?
They're not gonna teach players, they're not gonna buff slower builds (losing sustain from heavy attacks is not going to compensate for a little bit of extra damage, and werewolf builds are getting nerf after nerf), and on top of that they're going to promote bash weaving meta (so one more action per second). The dps requirements of dungeons and trials are going to stay the same, there will just be less players that are able to meet them.
I probably should have done my homework earlier....
I see what you are talking about with what you predict. My sustain is going to get WAY better now. The "sloppy" version of AC/weaving I do is going to net me longer spans of DPS between my potions and the wife is going to fall further behind while still keeping a full Magika bar....
You guys are right, this is a silly change....1 -
aetherial_heavenn✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly top players having up to 3 times the dps than the average is definitely too much regardless of how you see it...that doesnt make sense for a game - yes skilled players should be better but not 3times on static rotations...
Not "average". Only bad players have dps 1/3 of good players. Light attack spammers should NOT be rewarded with greater dps (by changing to heavy attacks)
Instead skills should be buffed with a significant but not crippling nerf to light attacks
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517845/how-the-la-ha-changes-fail-to-fulfill-zoss-stated-goals-and-what-could-be-done-instead#latest
I like a combination of Code's proposal linked and a slightly buffed class skill spammable suggested by others in the thread to compensate for the dps nerf (which idea Code also liked.) In essence that suggestion would lift the imperfect weavers like me a little, still doesn't affect highly practiced LA weavers too badly because they can interlace the class spammable perfectly still to compensate for a dps reduction, and it puts resource restores on all attacks (light moderate heavy ...in sensible quantities) so it doesn't stuff up tanks. And it adds a bit of class identity back.
I have seen a lot of moaning about the effect of the proposal on 'mah rotations' and so called 'advice' to just get good at LA weaving to improve your APM from upset damage dealers but are any tanks actually testing out the resources return. How do you LA attack weave on a tank to boost your stam while block casting, anyway? (edit. I guess it's from bash weaving?)Edited by aetherial_heavenn on March 27, 2020 2:53PMQuoted for truth
"In my experience, the elite ones have not been very toxic, and the toxic ones not very elite." WrathOfInnos1 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.3 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »the pedestal that some players have put themselves on is crumbling and they simply dont like the fact that other players will now be able to do the content they can.............and i dont think they like that idea very much. and thats the real problem with the proposed changes
lol, the content will stay the same difficulty, dps will simply drop, and bad players will still be bad because they will be forced to weave light attacks inor der to sustain, and will have to drop regen glyphs in order to do more damage. Same exact problem will arise. People who are just too lazy to practice should -never- be rewarded with being able to do all the hardest content in the game. -ever-5 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »the pedestal that some players have put themselves on is crumbling and they simply dont like the fact that other players will now be able to do the content they can.............and i dont think they like that idea very much. and thats the real problem with the proposed changes
Except that this is not the case?
They're not gonna teach players, they're not gonna buff slower builds (losing sustain from heavy attacks is not going to compensate for a little bit of extra damage, and werewolf builds are getting nerf after nerf), and on top of that they're going to promote bash weaving meta (so one more action per second). The dps requirements of dungeons and trials are going to stay the same, there will just be less players that are able to meet them.
Apparently being proud of practice is being on a pedestal now adays to these players. Lol.4 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...2 -
rager82b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭The closer they get to Elder Scrolls like Combat the better this game will be.
Many people who play this game, don't spam skills as fast as they can, and treat the game like elder scrolls lite. Sooooo this change is good.4 -
Stevie6✭✭✭✭I'm basically a casual player that uses a Magsorc or Petsorc setup since Pre Morrowind. I can tell you after this PTS patch, that HA builds are not sustainable. It will force Low apm players to use LA in some sort of crude rotation which they don't have. This will kill off the magsorc/petsorc style of game play for low apm players.
The Devs should put back the damage into skills like it was pre Morrowind. By rolling back the damage, shields, item sets, etc, it will reduce the amount of inputs (APM) that the server has to calculate and thus improving over all dps for low APM players. Yes, the dps gap will remain because of LA weaving and AC. That is natural in every mmorpg and should be. But if ZOS is serious about raising up the floor for low apm players, this has to be done.
Revert all of the nerfs to their former states PRE Morrowind.
Bring back damage to skills and large shields (a must because there is too much spamming which clogs up the server with too many inputs).
Leave LA alone
Increase HA by 500% (probably will be adjusted to whatever the devs want) with resource sustain.
For Cyrodiil/PVP well suck it up and don't complain if you get killed. Find a way to kill them back. PVE needs a big boost at the bottem end and if it rolls over into PVP oh well...git gud lol3 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.3 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
No other game have I played that only used 1-5 on the keyboard....So I dont see how you can say "slower and more like other MMOs." This has got to be the most simplistic combat I have ever seen in an MMO....thankfully ESO leans heavilly on its RPG componant.
What they are changing, not just saying they are changing ( so of course there are no posts saying it....) is the reliance on pounding on the keyboard as the ONLY option to achieve reliable DPS.0 -
justaquickword✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.
You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...
I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.
This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.
Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.
Your post seems to suggest I want to "improve the game for average players" in some way, suggests that was my focus at least. I never even thought that needed to be done. For the "average" player the game runs ok. Anyone can do overland content. As long as people do their job everyone can do normal mode dungeons...well any middle of the pack "average" player can.
What I am talking about is "fixing" the, in my opinion, terrible habit of jamming up the animations. It was why I predicted that "more changes are coming to the PTS." If they want to fix what I am talking about in all these posts they are going to have to limit the number of actions a player can shove down the servers throat and not allow ANY cancellations....or streamline animations so shortening them doesnt offer an advantage. One or the other would work.
I am fine with how the game plays for me. I am upper middle average....I think....lol
What started me thinking about all this was my poor wife. I showed her why I dont have issues with World bosses....she said it looks terrible and asked if I was exploiting....lol
THAT'S why I think things need "fixed." Also it's what I think the Devs are thinking.
"Upper middle average". This is the real ESO class system in action.
Thumbless Scummy Working class here.
😏1 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭justaquickword wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
See, you've just proven my point. ZOS completely fails at explaining how the game works.
Light attacks, bashes, dodges are not a part of this global cooldown system, they do not actually count as skills.
"Extremely fast"? Do you know what people usually suggest to those who are trying to learn how weaving works? Go slower. A second in game is actually longer than you might think, and button mashing is not very productive.
You just proved my point as well.
Light attacks, bashes are not part of the global cooldown system... just as you said, and as I implied. One skill and one LA per second. 2 attacks per second in a constant stream of damage not counting DOTs and movement?...yeah that's fast...
I look at the animations as if it was actually possible to do that skill, as in longer damaging motions lead to larger damage. Skills flow into one another. Light attacks flowing into skills. To me that seems to be how the game was built visually.
Mechanics wise not so much.
This is all just my opinion really, backed up by what animation/weavers say is how they do their thing. Well my opinion on what the Devs may be thinking, not my opinion on what is being done; that's just reporting the facts.
Well, first of all, have you played other games with action combat? ESO APM is nothing special, and if the goal was to lower it, it actually does the opposite. Resource return on light attacks promotes bash weaving (since it's easier to sustain it now) and since dps requirements for dungeons and trials weren't changed, it's gonna be more important. The changes also punish those who can only light weave and can't effectively use bashes because of their ping or reaction time.
So how is it going to improve the game for average players and reduce the gap between them and "elites"? You cannot even use a heavy attack build for infinite sustain anymore.
Your post seems to suggest I want to "improve the game for average players" in some way, suggests that was my focus at least. I never even thought that needed to be done. For the "average" player the game runs ok. Anyone can do overland content. As long as people do their job everyone can do normal mode dungeons...well any middle of the pack "average" player can.
What I am talking about is "fixing" the, in my opinion, terrible habit of jamming up the animations. It was why I predicted that "more changes are coming to the PTS." If they want to fix what I am talking about in all these posts they are going to have to limit the number of actions a player can shove down the servers throat and not allow ANY cancellations....or streamline animations so shortening them doesnt offer an advantage. One or the other would work.
I am fine with how the game plays for me. I am upper middle average....I think....lol
What started me thinking about all this was my poor wife. I showed her why I dont have issues with World bosses....she said it looks terrible and asked if I was exploiting....lol
THAT'S why I think things need "fixed." Also it's what I think the Devs are thinking.
"Upper middle average". This is the real ESO class system in action.
Thumbless Scummy Working class here.
😏
Zero thumbs? ouch!
If ya had one you would be able to keep up....couldnt really jump in game and "REEEEEE!" but....you could LA/HA weave/cancel your way to GLORY!0 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
Yes, that is literally what I am saying:Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.
ZOS said it, not just me. And I never said it was the ONLY thing that defines ESO. Stay in denial if you want.4 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
Yes, that is literally what I am saying:Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.
ZOS said it, not just me. And I never said it was the ONLY thing that defines ESO. Stay in denial if you want.
You left out the rest of my post....lol
The part about the amazing combat....ya know...the part that shows how silly the coment "accept what defines ESO or play another game" is.
What defines ESO is not the combat....One of the things that sets them apart is of course its combat. That is kinda the point. Those two sentences mean WAY different things.
What Defines ELDER SCROLLS online is the long history of the Elder Scrolls stories. What sets it apart from other MMOs is the simplistic watered down combat. People came in droves to see how they made the Elder Scrolls come alive and livable. They just had to meet in the middle between the MMO crowd and the RPers with the combat. The game itself is its face...it's marketable stories and world.
Denial is thinking the combat is what sold this game....6 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
Yes, that is literally what I am saying:Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.
ZOS said it, not just me. And I never said it was the ONLY thing that defines ESO. Stay in denial if you want.
You left out the rest of my post....lol
The part about the amazing combat....ya know...the part that shows how silly the coment "accept what defines ESO or play another game" is.
What defines ESO is not the combat....One of the things that sets them apart is of course its combat. That is kinda the point. Those two sentences mean WAY different things.
What Defines ELDER SCROLLS online is the long history of the Elder Scrolls stories. What sets it apart from other MMOs is the simplistic watered down combat. People came in droves to see how they made the Elder Scrolls come alive and livable. They just had to meet in the middle between the MMO crowd and the RPers with the combat. The game itself is its face...it's marketable stories and world.
Denial is thinking the combat is what sold this game....
Many come for the experience of being in Tamriel.
Many come for it being an MMO for PvP and Dungeons/Trials
Unfortunately, the PvP and Dungeons/Trials part has been steadily declining over time due to drastic changes every 4 months.
So who will be left? RPrs. Granted, they tend to be the whales ZOS needs to keep the game going financially, but without the rest of the people paying a subscription, it won't last forever, and if the money isn't there, there likely won't be a sequel.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc2 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
Yes, that is literally what I am saying:Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.
ZOS said it, not just me. And I never said it was the ONLY thing that defines ESO. Stay in denial if you want.
You left out the rest of my post....lol
The part about the amazing combat....ya know...the part that shows how silly the coment "accept what defines ESO or play another game" is.
What defines ESO is not the combat....One of the things that sets them apart is of course its combat. That is kinda the point. Those two sentences mean WAY different things.
What Defines ELDER SCROLLS online is the long history of the Elder Scrolls stories. What sets it apart from other MMOs is the simplistic watered down combat. People came in droves to see how they made the Elder Scrolls come alive and livable. They just had to meet in the middle between the MMO crowd and the RPers with the combat. The game itself is its face...it's marketable stories and world.
Denial is thinking the combat is what sold this game....
Many come for the experience of being in Tamriel.
Many come for it being an MMO for PvP and Dungeons/Trials
Unfortunately, the PvP and Dungeons/Trials part has been steadily declining over time due to drastic changes every 4 months.
So who will be left? RPrs. Granted, they tend to be the whales ZOS needs to keep the game going financially, but without the rest of the people paying a subscription, it won't last forever, and if the money isn't there, there likely won't be a sequel.
The end game/raid/trial/big group stompy stomp crowd has never in any MMO been the make or break crowd when it comes to a game lasting. PVPers have even less of an impact. The game will be fine between the Crown Store and subscriptions.3 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭kathandira wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
Yes, that is literally what I am saying:Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.
ZOS said it, not just me. And I never said it was the ONLY thing that defines ESO. Stay in denial if you want.
You left out the rest of my post....lol
The part about the amazing combat....ya know...the part that shows how silly the coment "accept what defines ESO or play another game" is.
What defines ESO is not the combat....One of the things that sets them apart is of course its combat. That is kinda the point. Those two sentences mean WAY different things.
What Defines ELDER SCROLLS online is the long history of the Elder Scrolls stories. What sets it apart from other MMOs is the simplistic watered down combat. People came in droves to see how they made the Elder Scrolls come alive and livable. They just had to meet in the middle between the MMO crowd and the RPers with the combat. The game itself is its face...it's marketable stories and world.
Denial is thinking the combat is what sold this game....
Many come for the experience of being in Tamriel.
Many come for it being an MMO for PvP and Dungeons/Trials
Unfortunately, the PvP and Dungeons/Trials part has been steadily declining over time due to drastic changes every 4 months.
So who will be left? RPrs. Granted, they tend to be the whales ZOS needs to keep the game going financially, but without the rest of the people paying a subscription, it won't last forever, and if the money isn't there, there likely won't be a sequel.
The end game/raid/trial/big group stompy stomp crowd has never in any MMO been the make or break crowd when it comes to a game lasting. PVPers have even less of an impact. The game will be fine between the Crown Store and subscriptions.
I have no idea where you get that impression from, but MMOs are generally designed with heavy focuses on combat, and the environments in which you conduct combat (PvP, Dungeons, Raids). Without those, you basically have no game, just a social hub. I don't see any thriving games where money was invested in those things and no longer have people participating in them. These are essential components of an MMO, and if those who do those activities leave, the game generally declines into maintenance mode, or shuts down.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc4 -
Artanisul✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »kathandira wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »Until 3 months ago I actually WATCHED my character use skills. That all stopped when I learned that by "animation cancelling" I could do much more damage. Now I just cause my character to spaz out in a seizure like dance....as in not doing most of his animations....
Maybe that is what they are going to fix....maybe?
It's called a fix because it isn't what anybody in that studio could possibly have thought of when they crafted this game of scenery or those dungeons mechanics......
No, they're not going to remove animation cancelling. Even more so, an extra step (bash cancelling) might become more important.
Also, if you're trying to cancel all your skill animations, you're doing it wrong. Regular light weaving only affects the tail end of light attack animation, your skill animation plays normally. There's no way to fit more than one skill per second anyway, there's a global cooldown.
So two "attacks" per second...one skill and one LA...
2 per second....
In an MMORPG....not a first person shooter or fighter sim...that is extremely fast responses and pretty much the definition of smashing keys to most people.
I still stand by what i said earlier. That cant be what they crafted the scenery and mechanics of this game for.
Too many are taking advantage of it, and it's becoming too main stream. More changes are going to follow what we are seeing on the PTS.
Why do people keep saying ESO is an MMORPG as justification for completely slowing down the combat? ESO combat is NOT like most other MMOs. It is defined by fast paced, mechanically intensive combat. ZOS said it themselves. Stop trying to shoehorn it into the same blandness as other MMOs. Either accept it or go play another game.
The people who are actually changing things are the ones who built this game to be an RPG. Those of us that like what they did mention the RPG part. Telling people to "accept it or go play another game" and not following that advice is very funny...
Show me a post by ZOS where they say that they want to change the combat to be slower and more like other MMOs. ZOS explicitly said the opposite. Go back and reread the PTS patch notes before responding. So yeah, accept what defines ESO or go play another game.
By your post you say the combat defines ESO? Really? Not the world or the scenery or storylines? That's amazing....it was this fantastic combat all along!
Yes, that is literally what I am saying:Combat in ESO is one of the things that truly separates our game from others like it. It’s action oriented, fast-paced, and gives you a lot of freedom over its various mechanics/interactions. It is balanced not with ability cooldowns, but via ability costs and resource pools - you can’t keep casting abilities or block/roll dodge without the proper resources to fuel those actions. We’ve found that players love this freedom and there is always a “button to press” or action to take at any point in combat.
ZOS said it, not just me. And I never said it was the ONLY thing that defines ESO. Stay in denial if you want.
You left out the rest of my post....lol
The part about the amazing combat....ya know...the part that shows how silly the coment "accept what defines ESO or play another game" is.
What defines ESO is not the combat....One of the things that sets them apart is of course its combat. That is kinda the point. Those two sentences mean WAY different things.
What Defines ELDER SCROLLS online is the long history of the Elder Scrolls stories. What sets it apart from other MMOs is the simplistic watered down combat. People came in droves to see how they made the Elder Scrolls come alive and livable. They just had to meet in the middle between the MMO crowd and the RPers with the combat. The game itself is its face...it's marketable stories and world.
Denial is thinking the combat is what sold this game....
Many come for the experience of being in Tamriel.
Many come for it being an MMO for PvP and Dungeons/Trials
Unfortunately, the PvP and Dungeons/Trials part has been steadily declining over time due to drastic changes every 4 months.
So who will be left? RPrs. Granted, they tend to be the whales ZOS needs to keep the game going financially, but without the rest of the people paying a subscription, it won't last forever, and if the money isn't there, there likely won't be a sequel.
The end game/raid/trial/big group stompy stomp crowd has never in any MMO been the make or break crowd when it comes to a game lasting. PVPers have even less of an impact. The game will be fine between the Crown Store and subscriptions.
I have no idea where you get that impression from, but MMOs are generally designed with heavy focuses on combat, and the environments in which you conduct combat (PvP, Dungeons, Raids). Without those, you basically have no game, just a social hub. I don't see any thriving games where money was invested in those things and no longer have people participating in them. These are essential components of an MMO, and if those who do those activities leave, the game generally declines into maintenance mode, or shuts down.
I get that impression from the 20 years gaming magazines and fellow reporters have reported those facts. It is not black/white. Dungeon running and group content does not mean Raid or DIE. I refered to the later as not make or break to the success of an MMO. ( reading back I see I didnt make that clear)
I agree combat has to be fun and I think ESO LOOKS great when I let the animations flow. The style for the most part was well done. Once I add in the jarring/jamming of AC it really falls apart. That may be the reason so many find it hard to practice it to get better DPS.2
This discussion has been closed.