The Frost Staff should be looked at because of these changes.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

With these changes to several passives, now would have been a great time to change how the frost staff works. The Frost Staff Tri-Focus is still a huge issue in both PvE, now PvP too. Now that heavy attacks are incentivised more, it's going to be a bit of an issue if you're running the frost staff as a backbar weapon, say, in PvP with a fire staff on front, these changes mean that you either have to not take tri focus and lose out on the massive 12% damage boost on fire staff, or do take it, and then your backbar blocking costs magicka which can really screw you over. if these... interesting changes make it through, the frost staff should really be looked at.

Here are suggestions to make the passives benefit DPS magicka builds.

Frost Tri Focus:
this is a really rough suggestion. i'm open to something similar-ish but it's just a general idea that is not set in stone.

Frost Ancient Knowledge:
bonus critical damage to open this weapon for magicka critical builds.

OR
(Roughly 7% crit)

The goal of these changes is not to remove destruction staff tanking, but to make the passives benefit the damage dealer instead of being bad for both the group and the player, where as the already existing tanking passives should be shifted to a tanking-only taunt skill, as to give magicka dps more options for magic weapons and to give tanks a defined taunting skill. This would additionally mean less DPS taunting enemies. the weakness to elements skill and it's morphs have been targeted to provide this benefit.

Weakness to Elements:
This skill has been changed to give less text to elemental susceptibility as it would have been way too long. the changes that have been made, are that the base morph now has a cost, a 5m range and a reduction to it's duration. down to 11 seconds. it will then rank up to 14 seconds. the change to the base skill may seem pretty harsh but it's just to cut down on the "new effect" text. it doesn't even have to change.

Elemental Drain

this morph doesn't actually change, it just gains some new effect text because of the changes to elemental susceptibility.

Elemental Susceptibility(Morph of Weakness to Elements):

this skill is now the destruction staff equivalent to pierce armour and a taunt option over both it and inner fire. what it offers is the debuff of piercing armor along with optional block passives. It's downsides are that it doesn't deal any damage, has a higher cost than pierce armour and it has 1 less second of duration on the taunt. it should be an option between inner fire and pierce armor that helps newer players, but not always a clear winner.

Changes to the skill are:
The skill is given a taunt, major fracture, a cost, a range reduction to 5 meters, a duration reduction to 14 seconds and while slotted with a destruction staff, the ancient knowledge passives that are currently stuck to the frost staff.

i'm not against suggestions for tweaks to the skill, but this should be fairer to use when compared to pierce armor. the previous incarnation had around 2x the cost, but it retained 28 meters of range.

SidraWillowsky · March 2020

Yes, please! I'd love to be able to run frost staves in PvE as well but, as Nightingale said, with the increased emphasis on HAs, it's going to be even LESS viable than it is now.

LeHarrt91 · March 2020

Agreed that the passives should be changed, with the intended changes it seems counter intuitive for the Tri-Focus passive to keep the taunt mechanic, since they wouldn't be getting any resources back.

And it seems that they are going in direction that Frost builds do Crit Damage which is great as its something you need to invest in and can be off set in pvp via Impen.

luen79rwb17_ESO · March 2020

That is awesome! I've always said that frost damage should be the "crit damage" from the destruction staff, you know, "spiky ice" and such... Those ideas should be great to see live, especially on my beloved but underused ice mage warden. The tweak to the tanking aspect was awesome aswell!

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

it's really important to stress that we don't want to destroy destruction staff tanking. but to make it less obstructive to frost dps and just groups in general. so making that change to elemental susceptibility will benefit everyone. less people will be accidentally heavy attack taunting, magicka damage dealers will gain another weapon to build with, frost damage builds can finally feel like their weapon is more viable, and tanks can use whatever destruction staff they want, whether it be frost staff for the root and slows + chilled, or the shock staff for off balance and more minor vulnerability uptime.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

With the increased emphasis on HAs, it's going to be even LESS viable than it is now.

which is an issue that should really be fixed before any of these (frankly awful) changes come out. heavies don't restore resources anymore. all it does is damage now.

Gnortranermara · March 2020

Keeping the defensive bonuses is perfectly fine. Flame and Shock are more damage-oriented, and this is the defense-oriented alternative.

The #1 top priority thing the Frost staff needs is swapping the Taunt and Immobilize between the HA and Frost Clench. That's 90% of its problem solved in one move. The weapon is basically gorked for both roles currently, and this one simple change would make it better for both.

Minor Armor debuffs on Clench would be nice for tanks, too.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Keeping the defensive bonuses is perfectly fine. Flame and Shock are more damage-oriented, and this is the defense-oriented alternative.

The #1 top priority thing the Frost staff needs is swapping the Taunt and Immobilize between the HA and Frost Clench. That's 90% of its problem solved in one move. The weapon is basically gorked for both roles currently, and this one simple change would make it better for both.

Minor Armor debuffs on Clench would be nice for tanks, too.

i don't agree at all. magicka only has 2 real weapons. and making the heavy attack immobilise would make pvp a living hell. the passives that the weapon currently has are pretty bad. ancient more-so in that it stops the weapon for being for both damage, and an option for tanking. condensing tanking related effects to a taunting/debuff skill, on an unused morph that already has a major debuff on it is better for everyone. the change that you suggest means that it would still give the magicka block cost. which is a gimic, rather than a universally useful effect which is what passives currently are, with the only exception being tri focus in it's current state.

MLGProPlayer · March 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

it's really important to stress that we don't want to destroy destruction staff tanking. but to make it less obstructive to frost dps and just groups in general. so making that change to elemental susceptibility will benefit everyone. less people will be accidentally heavy attack taunting, magicka damage dealers will gain another weapon to build with, frost damage builds can finally feel like their weapon is more viable, and tanks can use whatever destruction staff they want, whether it be frost staff for the root and slows + chilled, or the shock staff for off balance and more minor vulnerability uptime.

It would be wonderful if ZOS just created a 4th type of staff (earth or something) for tanking.

Vaoh · March 2020

Absolutely yes! Give Elemental Susceptibility the Magicka version of Pierce Armor and turn it into a tanking weapon through that.

This way the Ice Destruction Staff can actually be used for Damage. And all the Ice Mage players can play their characters without being horrible. It is also an indirect Mag Warden buff which may be much of what they needed.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

it's really important to stress that we don't want to destroy destruction staff tanking. but to make it less obstructive to frost dps and just groups in general. so making that change to elemental susceptibility will benefit everyone. less people will be accidentally heavy attack taunting, magicka damage dealers will gain another weapon to build with, frost damage builds can finally feel like their weapon is more viable, and tanks can use whatever destruction staff they want, whether it be frost staff for the root and slows + chilled, or the shock staff for off balance and more minor vulnerability uptime.

It would be wonderful if ZOS just created a 4th type of staff (earth or something) for tanking.

i think that's highly unlikely at this point. i think the absolute best (in relation to most realistic) option, is what i've layed out here.

Kolzki · March 2020

Plays warden dd. Wants to use ice. Has bear. Heavy attacks to direct bear to target. Ice heavy taunts boss. No more warden.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

Kolzki wrote: »

Plays warden dd. Wants to use ice. Has bear. Heavy attacks to direct bear to target. Ice heavy taunts boss. No more warden.

this is definitely something that has happened to at least a few new players who made the mistake of putting points into tri focus when using the ice staff. and it really shouldn't happen.

Kolzki · March 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Plays warden dd. Wants to use ice. Has bear. Heavy attacks to direct bear to target. Ice heavy taunts boss. No more warden.

this is definitely something that has happened to at least a few new players who made the mistake of putting points into tri focus when using the ice staff. and it really shouldn't happen.

We are potentially heading into this low APM thing where lighting heavies are very strong. Wardens now got a buff to applying chilled. Frost staffs potentially useful for this but you would never be able to run one on a warden and run lightning staff heavy attacks.

LeHarrt91 · March 2020

I do still like the idea of Frost Heavy granting a shield, it just needs to be a decent sized shield. But with the proposed changes it definitely needs the taunt removed and this would be a great help for Wardens.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I do still like the idea of Frost Heavy granting a shield, it just needs to be a decent sized shield. But with the proposed changes it definitely needs the taunt removed and this would be a great help for Wardens.

with the heavy attacks being like they are, a shield would not be very helpful for damage dealing, like the new heavy attack is purposed for.

LeHarrt91 · March 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I do still like the idea of Frost Heavy granting a shield, it just needs to be a decent sized shield. But with the proposed changes it definitely needs the taunt removed and this would be a great help for Wardens.

with the heavy attacks being like they are, a shield would not be very helpful for damage dealing, like the new heavy attack is purposed for.

Yeah i know lol but i did a heavy on Live and forgot about the shield and remember it looks cool

olsborg · March 2020

Sounds kinda cool yes.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I do still like the idea of Frost Heavy granting a shield, it just needs to be a decent sized shield. But with the proposed changes it definitely needs the taunt removed and this would be a great help for Wardens.

with the heavy attacks being like they are, a shield would not be very helpful for damage dealing, like the new heavy attack is purposed for.

Yeah i know lol but i did a heavy on Live and forgot about the shield and remember it looks cool

if heavies still worked like on live it would be okay. but as of right now, a damage related effect would be more competitive with an inferno staff.

LeHarrt91 · March 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I do still like the idea of Frost Heavy granting a shield, it just needs to be a decent sized shield. But with the proposed changes it definitely needs the taunt removed and this would be a great help for Wardens.

with the heavy attacks being like they are, a shield would not be very helpful for damage dealing, like the new heavy attack is purposed for.

Yeah i know lol but i did a heavy on Live and forgot about the shield and remember it looks cool

if heavies still worked like on live it would be okay. but as of right now, a damage related effect would be more competitive with an inferno staff.

So they need to implement Code's feedback, it would still be useful. Tho the shield size needs to be bigger.

But regardless... please move the taunt from Heavy Attacks.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I do still like the idea of Frost Heavy granting a shield, it just needs to be a decent sized shield. But with the proposed changes it definitely needs the taunt removed and this would be a great help for Wardens.

with the heavy attacks being like they are, a shield would not be very helpful for damage dealing, like the new heavy attack is purposed for.

Yeah i know lol but i did a heavy on Live and forgot about the shield and remember it looks cool

if heavies still worked like on live it would be okay. but as of right now, a damage related effect would be more competitive with an inferno staff.

So they need to implement Code's feedback, it would still be useful. Tho the shield size needs to be bigger.

But regardless... please move the taunt from Heavy Attacks.

the implementation of code's feedback would help a ton. but yeah, the heavy attack taunt really really needs to be shifted.

YandereGirlfriend · March 2020

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

it's really important to stress that we don't want to destroy destruction staff tanking. but to make it less obstructive to frost dps and just groups in general. so making that change to elemental susceptibility will benefit everyone. less people will be accidentally heavy attack taunting, magicka damage dealers will gain another weapon to build with, frost damage builds can finally feel like their weapon is more viable, and tanks can use whatever destruction staff they want, whether it be frost staff for the root and slows + chilled, or the shock staff for off balance and more minor vulnerability uptime.

It would be wonderful if ZOS just created a 4th type of staff (earth or something) for tanking.

Alteration Staff and skill tree, problem solved!

Not to mention that would "feel" very Elder Scrolls as well.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

it's really important to stress that we don't want to destroy destruction staff tanking. but to make it less obstructive to frost dps and just groups in general. so making that change to elemental susceptibility will benefit everyone. less people will be accidentally heavy attack taunting, magicka damage dealers will gain another weapon to build with, frost damage builds can finally feel like their weapon is more viable, and tanks can use whatever destruction staff they want, whether it be frost staff for the root and slows + chilled, or the shock staff for off balance and more minor vulnerability uptime.

It would be wonderful if ZOS just created a 4th type of staff (earth or something) for tanking.

Alteration Staff and skill tree, problem solved!

Not to mention that would "feel" very Elder Scrolls as well.

I agree. but creating an entirely new weapon for tanking (if it was even coming at all) would be at the absolute least, a year off. that's to say they make it next year for the chapter. This is a near immediate fix to the issue as a whole.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

Vaoh wrote: »

Absolutely yes! Give Elemental Susceptibility the Magicka version of Pierce Armor and turn it into a tanking weapon through that.

This way the Ice Destruction Staff can actually be used for Damage. And all the Ice Mage players can play their characters without being horrible. It is also an indirect Mag Warden buff which may be much of what they needed.

it would become a good tanking skill for tanks who use the destruction staff. far better than the frankly awful system currently in place. and, while it would be nice, we don't need an alteration staff to fix the issue, just 3 changes would make not only destruction staff tanking better for the group, and be more flexible for the player utilising it, but also would finally open up the ice staff for damage. if it was critical focused, it would mean that there would be more build options open to everyone playing a magic class. 2 magic weapons just isn't cutting it anymore.

Kolzki · March 2020

Lots of options for a tanking/support alteration staff. Taunts, CCs, pulls, group buffs, shields. Maybe even ranged bashing. Clearly it would take time to create/test. The destro staff skills, ultimate and arena weapons are not tanking focused.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

Kolzki wrote: »

Lots of options for a tanking/support alteration staff. Taunts, CCs, pulls, group buffs, shields. Maybe even ranged bashing. Clearly it would take time to create/test. The destro staff skills, ultimate and arena weapons are not tanking focused.

that would be good and i want them, but this would be the fastest possible solution that gives us what we need and does very little damage to existing playstyles.

Dracane · March 2020

Please do not take the frost damage shield from my tank. The point in using an ice staff is to get that taunt free from a slot. Giving it to elemental sus. is pointless and eliminates the whole purpose. I personally would rather they do not make frost staves a dps weapon. We have fire and lightning for that.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Please do not take the frost damage shield from my tank. The point in using an ice staff is to get that taunt free from a slot. Giving it to elemental sus. is pointless and eliminates the whole purpose. I personally would rather they do not make frost staves a dps weapon. We have fire and lightning for that.

the damage shield that is given by the heavy attack is so tiny that you'd be lucky to block 1 enemy light attack with it. Having the taunt on the heavy attack has caused numerous issues where people playing dps use the heavy attack, and taunt by accident or on purpose to grief. because of that, and it's other gimic that changes your block cost to magicka. with these new changes, it will only make this issue even worse, because tanks no longer gain much benefit from heavy attacking, as heavy attacks deal more damage and no longer restore resources. The heavy attack taunt might be free, but it has a long cast time. but why even bother using it over something far more effective? especially now. Tri focus is now a really useful passive to use when wielding a fire staff because it boosts the heavy attack damage further. if you were using a frost staff as a backbar weapon in pvp, you are now effectively forced to have a magicka block cost on your backbar. It's the only passive in the game that numerous amounts of people don't take because it is just awfully designed. there is no other passive in the game that acts like that. we only have 2 weapon options to dps with on a magicka character which is just sad, with these changes, not only will magicka gain another weapon option that they have been desperately needing, but tanks will also gain more options in the form of ALL of the destruction staves. changing elemental susceptibility is not pointless because: it is currently not used at all by anyone, it will put the destruction staff taunt on a skill with both major armor debuffs, and a slotted effect that is the current frost staff passive. you are effectively given more options, and it frees up the passives to not be so destructive towards groups and the player trying to use it.

these changes will make tanking with a destruction staff better. not worse.

Vaoh · March 2020

Dracane wrote: »

Please do not take the frost damage shield from my tank. The point in using an ice staff is to get that taunt free from a slot. Giving it to elemental sus. is pointless and eliminates the whole purpose. I personally would rather they do not make frost staves a dps weapon. We have fire and lightning for that.

You do realize the damage shield is so tiny it almost doesn’t exist right?

Elemental Susceptibility would apply Major Fracture/Breach, removing the need to slot Pierce Armor. It actually buffs tanks and makes full on Magicka tanking even better. You can even slot a Fire or Shock staff instead and still keep your taunt.

It also simultaneously opens up the entire Ice staff as a new weapon choice for Damage dealers (finally).

Works well for everyone.

Nevasca · March 2020

You know what would be interesting? Increasing light attack damage on frost staves. Fire gets heavy attack damage, lightning gets aoe, frost gets light attack. So LA builds prefer frost, lightning for aoe and fire heavys.

Perhaps instead of la dmg, more resource return on la? Either way I think it fits better than crit damage because that's a very powerful buff on pvp, while being not that good to stack on pve because of shadow (this is why Khajiit is not that good vs orc).

I don't like the idea of giving both debuffs and taunting, mostly because it's ranged. I think S/B should still be priority for tanks and they can choose to have ice staff backbar for support or not.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

You know what would be interesting? Increasing light attack damage on frost staves. Fire gets heavy attack damage, lightning gets aoe, frost gets light attack. So LA builds prefer frost, lightning for aoe and fire heavys.

Perhaps instead of la dmg, more resource return on la? Either way I think it fits better than crit damage because that's a very powerful buff on pvp, while being not that good to stack on pve because of shadow (this is why Khajiit is not that good vs orc).

I don't like the idea of giving both debuffs and taunting, mostly because it's ranged. I think S/B should still be priority for tanks and they can choose to have ice staff backbar for support or not.

i'm not sure how i feel about the light attack bonus damage. especially now because of the changes i don't know if it would be too much, or too little.

Crit damage may not be as good as critical chance, which is something i've also listed, but it would nevertheless be a great weapon to use for more niche critical damage builds in both pvp and pve. critical damage is the equal middle ground between both single target and aoe damage while still having an area it doesn't boost. that, of course, being normal damage. i think it's perfect honestly, you still do get benefit out of critical damage in pvp despite the fact that people wear inpen. If you boost your crit damage up with minor force, cp and class passives, you could have a neat critical focused magicka build. But i think it would shine more in pve than it would in pvp, that's fine to be honest. i don't want it to be the replacement to inferno staves. but rather an option instead.

the elemental susceptibility morph does not necessarily need to give major fracture as well. but i suggested it because it's been a pain point for destruction staff tanks for a long time. It would certainly be a good option to use with/over the other taunts. either way, it needs to be shifted off the heavy attack as soon as possible.