The Frost Staff should be looked at because of these changes.

Skjaldbjorn

Fundamentally, I agree with this on a wide spectrum. Frost DPS should definitely be feasible. That Tri-Focus passive is trash and needs to be completely reworked at some point. Most tanks don't even skill it because it's effectively useless. However, where I (as an unwilling tank main) would absolutely lose my ish is the removal of the block cost passive. No thank you. Not even remotely. Forcing that onto a slotted skill is brutal. Tank back bar slots are already at an absolute premium because we're asked to run so much utility for our groups. Hard pass.

Skjaldbjorn

I think I misread what was being done to Elemental Succeptability. Would it function the same as Inner Rage, as far as instant cast long-range "projectile" taunt? If so, I guess that's alright. The cost is pretty absurd, though. Also makes inner rage a completely pointless skill, honestly.

buttaface

No. Not interested in an extra skill slot for taunting with a staff, ESPECIALLY one that costs magicka. Just use a different staff for HA, a vast majority of builds will have two, staff balance is well-thought out and fine as is. Won't post more as this kind of change is about slim or none in chance of happening and is not well considered.

JTD

It's called destruction staf... just make ice a VIABLE dps option in all aspects.
Fire - single target
Lightning - aoe
Ice - ???

But please no crit damage on a staff not with the way crit works in this game. Even more pls move away from percentage based increases in the destro staff. I'd like to run an ice build but that 5% extra single target damage on the fire staff is just to good.

For tanking .. mirror a staff and call it defensive staff or something alike. Copy paste some skills copy paste some passives. And we good to go. Use the Ice Staff visuals and make it .... purple?

Rex-Umbra

This is the best suggestion I have ever read on the forums

josiahva

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Fundamentally, I agree with this on a wide spectrum. Frost DPS should definitely be feasible. That Tri-Focus passive is trash and needs to be completely reworked at some point. Most tanks don't even skill it because it's effectively useless. However, where I (as an unwilling tank main) would absolutely lose my ish is the removal of the block cost passive. No thank you. Not even remotely. Forcing that onto a slotted skill is brutal. Tank back bar slots are already at an absolute premium because we're asked to run so much utility for our groups. Hard pass.

If you think its useless, you simply don't understand how and when to use it. I do not always use this, but there are CERTAINLY fights this is useful as-is in. For vICP as an example...this is how you use the skill. In his shadow phase, you need to taunt all the ads. You stand in the center(avoiding portals) and spam heavy attack. This gives you taunt+magicka, as they all focus you, you then use your self-heal to keep your health up...the healer has to devote 0 resources to heal you because this skill gives you a free heal while spamming heavy attack taunt....so this effectively gives you the magicka back you would otherwise spend on inner fire+ green dragon blood(or whatever heal you use). Now, I have plenty enough resource on my tank to use inner fire and not need this at all, but the fact that it is available is certainly nice.

This also shines in the fight against Domihaus in vFH. You MUST keep a taunt on him at all times, or he can quickly kill a DPS, and while you can use the S&B taunt, you often have to wade into the fire to get close enough....not efficient, so a ranged taunt it is. You could use inner fire....or you could use the free ice staff taunt and use the magicka returned to cast something useful to the group or yourself.

The point is that if you find this "skill" useless as it is means you are not using it correctly...it saves AND restores resources...resources you can very well use for other skills that will help your group. Its like people who say Chudan is a bad tank set...its not, I use Chudan when I don't want to waste resources casting an armor spell, this increases survivability in resource intensive fights...resources are life for you, they are life for your group and resources are why the ice staff taunt is a GOOD skill for a tank, situational as it may be, it increases your options and your toolbox. In addition to that, it also frees up a skill slot(like Chudan). While I may not always use every single skill on both front and back bars in a given fight, I DO often use them all throughout an entire dungeon or trial.

Disclaimer: A lot of times I don't even run an ice staff, I often run a lightning staff or a resto staff depending on content and group, but I like the options a tanking designed staff gives me, and I do sometimes use the ice staff. The easy way to make everyone happy is simply to make an entirely new tanking staff....one that all the skills are useful for tanking, instead of just a couple....a tanking staff of that nature would have something like Combat Prayer(though maybe one that buffs armor for group instead of healing), elemental drain, Blockade of Lightning(or rather something with the same effect, though not lightning based) and a ranged interrupt, along with the current passives of the ice staff....then rework lightning and ice staves

universal_wrath

I would certainly be happy for passives or skill rework wgen it comes to frost staff. As I have recently started by frost warden, I spent zero points in tri-focus and alway feel overwhelmed by how frost staff or frost elemnt does not over any damage boost. Frost elemnt and destruction staff by far has the best crown control off eveything in the game, but it is overwhelmingly weak in boss fights. Good thing that warden have incrased 10% critical chance to chilled enemies to off set the damage lost of tri-focus passive.

I would be more than have for elemntal susptibility rework to act as a taunt. This would open up for many ways of attacking like tank with fire or lighting staves. Also, current inner rage skill could do a rework as one morph have 100% chance to proc synrgy while other morph have 5% increased damage done. I thought many times to use the other morph as DD but I would just taunt the boss. Why put a damage increased on a taunt skill that only tank would use and it is very useless for that tank? Also, as a healer I'm tryung to run as much synrgies as possible for sustain, I have thought about using the first morph but again, it is a taunt.

Skjaldbjorn

josiahva wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Fundamentally, I agree with this on a wide spectrum. Frost DPS should definitely be feasible. That Tri-Focus passive is trash and needs to be completely reworked at some point. Most tanks don't even skill it because it's effectively useless. However, where I (as an unwilling tank main) would absolutely lose my ish is the removal of the block cost passive. No thank you. Not even remotely. Forcing that onto a slotted skill is brutal. Tank back bar slots are already at an absolute premium because we're asked to run so much utility for our groups. Hard pass.

If you think its useless, you simply don't understand how and when to use it. I do not always use this, but there are CERTAINLY fights this is useful as-is in. For vICP as an example...this is how you use the skill. In his shadow phase, you need to taunt all the ads. You stand in the center(avoiding portals) and spam heavy attack. This gives you taunt+magicka, as they all focus you, you then use your self-heal to keep your health up...the healer has to devote 0 resources to heal you because this skill gives you a free heal while spamming heavy attack taunt....so this effectively gives you the magicka back you would otherwise spend on inner fire+ green dragon blood(or whatever heal you use). Now, I have plenty enough resource on my tank to use inner fire and not need this at all, but the fact that it is available is certainly nice.

This also shines in the fight against Domihaus in vFH. You MUST keep a taunt on him at all times, or he can quickly kill a DPS, and while you can use the S&B taunt, you often have to wade into the fire to get close enough....not efficient, so a ranged taunt it is. You could use inner fire....or you could use the free ice staff taunt and use the magicka returned to cast something useful to the group or yourself.

The point is that if you find this "skill" useless as it is means you are not using it correctly...it saves AND restores resources...resources you can very well use for other skills that will help your group. Its like people who say Chudan is a bad tank set...its not, I use Chudan when I don't want to waste resources casting an armor spell, this increases survivability in resource intensive fights...resources are life for you, they are life for your group and resources are why the ice staff taunt is a GOOD skill for a tank, situational as it may be, it increases your options and your toolbox. In addition to that, it also frees up a skill slot(like Chudan). While I may not always use every single skill on both front and back bars in a given fight, I DO often use them all throughout an entire dungeon or trial.

Disclaimer: A lot of times I don't even run an ice staff, I often run a lightning staff or a resto staff depending on content and group, but I like the options a tanking designed staff gives me, and I do sometimes use the ice staff. The easy way to make everyone happy is simply to make an entirely new tanking staff....one that all the skills are useful for tanking, instead of just a couple....a tanking staff of that nature would have something like Combat Prayer(though maybe one that buffs armor for group instead of healing), elemental drain, Blockade of Lightning(or rather something with the same effect, though not lightning based) and a ranged interrupt, along with the current passives of the ice staff....then rework lightning and ice staves

@josiahva It's a niche passive. Could it be useful in very specific content? Sure. Typically speaking, healers apply off-balance in trials with lightning blockade. Tanks can run lightning staves for sure, but it's actually fairly risky in Kyne's. One bad swap and you get insta-gibbed because the mobs just hit so damn hard. That's why I consistently run a frost staff. If I need magicka, and I have skilled that passive, I can't heavy the boss because it taunts. That can lead to over-taunting. Yes, in 4-man content, it's probably fine and maybe even useful in specific situations.

From a trial perspective, it is effectively worthless.

FrancisCrawford

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

That can lead to over-taunting.

Where is over-taunting a problem at this point in the game's life? How does that adverse mechanism work and cause actual problems?

Skjaldbjorn

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

That can lead to over-taunting.

Where is over-taunting a problem at this point in the game's life? How does that adverse mechanism work and cause actual problems?

I mean, for experienced tanks it's typically not. It can occasionally pop up during taunt swaps or if one tank dies and the other has to pick up the mob. However, you do see it occasionally. Heavy attacking with a frost staff however, if you had the passive, would ramp that up quite a bit.

josiahva

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Fundamentally, I agree with this on a wide spectrum. Frost DPS should definitely be feasible. That Tri-Focus passive is trash and needs to be completely reworked at some point. Most tanks don't even skill it because it's effectively useless. However, where I (as an unwilling tank main) would absolutely lose my ish is the removal of the block cost passive. No thank you. Not even remotely. Forcing that onto a slotted skill is brutal. Tank back bar slots are already at an absolute premium because we're asked to run so much utility for our groups. Hard pass.

If you think its useless, you simply don't understand how and when to use it. I do not always use this, but there are CERTAINLY fights this is useful as-is in. For vICP as an example...this is how you use the skill. In his shadow phase, you need to taunt all the ads. You stand in the center(avoiding portals) and spam heavy attack. This gives you taunt+magicka, as they all focus you, you then use your self-heal to keep your health up...the healer has to devote 0 resources to heal you because this skill gives you a free heal while spamming heavy attack taunt....so this effectively gives you the magicka back you would otherwise spend on inner fire+ green dragon blood(or whatever heal you use). Now, I have plenty enough resource on my tank to use inner fire and not need this at all, but the fact that it is available is certainly nice.

This also shines in the fight against Domihaus in vFH. You MUST keep a taunt on him at all times, or he can quickly kill a DPS, and while you can use the S&B taunt, you often have to wade into the fire to get close enough....not efficient, so a ranged taunt it is. You could use inner fire....or you could use the free ice staff taunt and use the magicka returned to cast something useful to the group or yourself.

The point is that if you find this "skill" useless as it is means you are not using it correctly...it saves AND restores resources...resources you can very well use for other skills that will help your group. Its like people who say Chudan is a bad tank set...its not, I use Chudan when I don't want to waste resources casting an armor spell, this increases survivability in resource intensive fights...resources are life for you, they are life for your group and resources are why the ice staff taunt is a GOOD skill for a tank, situational as it may be, it increases your options and your toolbox. In addition to that, it also frees up a skill slot(like Chudan). While I may not always use every single skill on both front and back bars in a given fight, I DO often use them all throughout an entire dungeon or trial.

Disclaimer: A lot of times I don't even run an ice staff, I often run a lightning staff or a resto staff depending on content and group, but I like the options a tanking designed staff gives me, and I do sometimes use the ice staff. The easy way to make everyone happy is simply to make an entirely new tanking staff....one that all the skills are useful for tanking, instead of just a couple....a tanking staff of that nature would have something like Combat Prayer(though maybe one that buffs armor for group instead of healing), elemental drain, Blockade of Lightning(or rather something with the same effect, though not lightning based) and a ranged interrupt, along with the current passives of the ice staff....then rework lightning and ice staves

@josiahva It's a niche passive. Could it be useful in very specific content? Sure. Typically speaking, healers apply off-balance in trials with lightning blockade. Tanks can run lightning staves for sure, but it's actually fairly risky in Kyne's. One bad swap and you get insta-gibbed because the mobs just hit so damn hard. That's why I consistently run a frost staff. If I need magicka, and I have skilled that passive, I can't heavy the boss because it taunts. That can lead to over-taunting. Yes, in 4-man content, it's probably fine and maybe even useful in specific situations.

From a trial perspective, it is effectively worthless.

Over-taunting? I have yet to see that as a problem in ESO, re-taunting just resets the 15 second timer, or takes aggro away from a 2nd tank in certain trial situations. The only time you can say over-taunting is a problem is because it takes resources to taunt....or rather, it does with every taunt EXCEPT the frost staff taunt. I can and have effectively used the ice staff taunt on the twins in MOL, they give you enough time to make it an option(though I still usually use inner fire there). I do agree that its not too useful in trials...but it is useful in 4 man content(trials are not the end-all and be-all of PVE, many people do not care for the rather toxic atmosphere that occurs in many trials)...there is zero reason to remove a tool from your toolbox after all...even if its a tool you rarely use. As I said, I don't run an ice staff more than about half of the time(much more likely to run an ice staff in a trial than I am in a no-death vDLC dungeon run) but I am certainly not about to advocate for taking away a tool....I dont shoot myself in the foot because other people are unhappy with how it looks

Skjaldbjorn

josiahva wrote: »

Over-taunting? I have yet to see that as a problem in ESO, re-taunting just resets the 15 second timer, or takes aggro away from a 2nd tank in certain trial situations. The only time you can say over-taunting is a problem is because it takes resources to taunt....or rather, it does with every taunt EXCEPT the frost staff taunt. I can and have effectively used the ice staff taunt on the twins in MOL, they give you enough time to make it an option(though I still usually use inner fire there). I do agree that its not too useful in trials...but it is useful in 4 man content(trials are not the end-all and be-all of PVE, many people do not care for the rather toxic atmosphere that occurs in many trials)...there is zero reason to remove a tool from your toolbox after all...even if its a tool you rarely use. As I said, I don't run an ice staff more than about half of the time(much more likely to run an ice staff in a trial than I am in a no-death vDLC dungeon run) but I am certainly not about to advocate for taking away a tool....I dont shoot myself in the foot because other people are unhappy with how it looks

I have no idea how you've never seen over-taunting, honestly. It's reasonably common especially in lower-tier trial groups with less experienced tanks. Taunt swapping generally won't cause it if intended. It's usually accidental taunts, cleanup after deaths and the like that cause it. An actual overtaunt causes the mob to drop all aggro and simply start running around smacking DPS.

If you're so hard-stretched for resources in dungeons that you can only sustain comfortably with an ice staff taunt over inner fire, to be candid, your build sucks. I can sustain just as easily in trials as dungeons. It's not markedly different aside from fewer synergies and less overall support sets. I view it as an incredibly niche option for newer tanks, but I can say with conviction that I cannot name a single highly experienced tank I have encountered that used it for anything other than memes. It's simply not reliable or particularly good.

I don't care if the passive stays. I don't skill it because it's pretty much garbage. However, if they did something else with it, i'd support that. It directly works against ever having a frost staff DPS.

MashmalloMan

Great ideas as usual @ESO_Nightingale.

Maybe some of your post can be updated though since Fracture and Breach are planned to be combined as 1 debuff in a future patch... we're approaching almost 1 year now, so who knows when it will actually happen, but they wouldn't bother with making a skill or morph only provide 1 debuff now if many of the relevant skills and sets might need potential reworks in the future.

ZOS may have been aware of this change as early as when they designed Elsweyr and Necromancer's in early 2019 since Graveyard is the first aoe skill in the game to provide both Major Fracture and Breach in the base skill while Warden's Scorch morphs provide only 1 or the other as unique morph effects, designed 2 years prior.

Weakness to Elements morphs, Puncture morphs, Razor Caltrops, Noxious Breath, Scorch Morphs and Night Mothers Gaze will all have both penetrations, potentially requiring redesigns to how some of these morphs are treated differently between each other or possibly even new bonuses entirely.

Quoted from Update 24 (Oct 2019):

• Abilities and item sets that grant Physical and Spell Resistances now grant an equal amount of both as a singular stat – Armor – rather than 2 separate stats.
  • Many item sets that granted X Spell or Physical Resistance now grant .5X Armor. This was done to ensure total power remains the same, with less variance in these stats.
    • Passives that grant a unique source of one have not been adjusted.
  • Major and Minor Resolve now grant an equal amount of Physical and Spell Resistance, and Major and Minor Ward have been discontinued.
  • Note that this has not yet happened to Fracture and Breach or forms of Penetration.

ESO_Nightingale

i haven't checked the forums in a week and just got 19 pings lol