The Frost Staff should be looked at because of these changes.

ATreeGnome

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Elemental Susceptibility(Morph of Weakness to Elements):

this skill is now the destruction staff equivalent to pierce armour and a taunt option over both it and inner fire. what it offers is the debuff of piercing armor and the range of inner fire along with optional block passives. It's downsides are that it doesn't deal any damage, and it has a much higher cost than both inner fire and pierce armour. it should be an option between inner fire and pierce armor, not a clear winner.

I like your ideas and the general idea of making Elemental Susceptibility a tanking skill, but I have an issue with this ability as it's stated. The passive 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation are very powerful passive defensive buffs that healers and DPS would have easy access to as well. A defensive ability that costs no resources and doesn't require use of a GCD is going to be a better alternative to things like Dampen Magic in many PvE situations and (I suspect) very powerful in PvP as well. There are two alternatives that come to my mind at the moment.

Option 1: Tie the bonuses to the number of heavy armor pieces equipped. So instead of 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation, it might be 5% block cost reduction and 3% block mitigation per piece of heavy armor equipped. This would make it unattractive to light armor wearers like DPS and healers.

Option 2: When the ability is equipped on either bar, you may also equip a shield and gain the 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation and taunt function. I would prefer to see this as a new skill line or rolled in to the 1h + shield skill line, but the end result matters more than where it's implemented.

ESO_Nightingale

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Elemental Susceptibility(Morph of Weakness to Elements):

this skill is now the destruction staff equivalent to pierce armour and a taunt option over both it and inner fire. what it offers is the debuff of piercing armor and the range of inner fire along with optional block passives. It's downsides are that it doesn't deal any damage, and it has a much higher cost than both inner fire and pierce armour. it should be an option between inner fire and pierce armor, not a clear winner.

I like your ideas and the general idea of making Elemental Susceptibility a tanking skill, but I have an issue with this ability as it's stated. The passive 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation are very powerful passive defensive buffs that healers and DPS would have easy access to as well. A defensive ability that costs no resources and doesn't require use of a GCD is going to be a better alternative to things like Dampen Magic in many PvE situations and (I suspect) very powerful in PvP as well. There are two alternatives that come to my mind at the moment.

Option 1: Tie the bonuses to the number of heavy armor pieces equipped. So instead of 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation, it might be 5% block cost reduction and 3% block mitigation per piece of heavy armor equipped. This would make it unattractive to light armor wearers like DPS and healers.

Option 2: When the ability is equipped on either bar, you may also equip a shield and gain the 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation and taunt function. I would prefer to see this as a new skill line or rolled in to the 1h + shield skill line, but the end result matters more than where it's implemented.

On paper it sounds insane, but in practice you need to have this skill slotted to have the same defensive impact as a frost staff when blocking. which takes up a valuable skill slot. it's not very cheap either for the active portion of the skill. this may de-incentivise you from using it in pvp. it may still just be better in most cases to just use a sword and shield on your backbar instead in pvp. because it would have the same effect as sword and shield but requiring a skill slot while giving less mitigation due to the shield's armor qualities.

ATreeGnome

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Elemental Susceptibility(Morph of Weakness to Elements):

this skill is now the destruction staff equivalent to pierce armour and a taunt option over both it and inner fire. what it offers is the debuff of piercing armor and the range of inner fire along with optional block passives. It's downsides are that it doesn't deal any damage, and it has a much higher cost than both inner fire and pierce armour. it should be an option between inner fire and pierce armor, not a clear winner.

I like your ideas and the general idea of making Elemental Susceptibility a tanking skill, but I have an issue with this ability as it's stated. The passive 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation are very powerful passive defensive buffs that healers and DPS would have easy access to as well. A defensive ability that costs no resources and doesn't require use of a GCD is going to be a better alternative to things like Dampen Magic in many PvE situations and (I suspect) very powerful in PvP as well. There are two alternatives that come to my mind at the moment.

Option 1: Tie the bonuses to the number of heavy armor pieces equipped. So instead of 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation, it might be 5% block cost reduction and 3% block mitigation per piece of heavy armor equipped. This would make it unattractive to light armor wearers like DPS and healers.

Option 2: When the ability is equipped on either bar, you may also equip a shield and gain the 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation and taunt function. I would prefer to see this as a new skill line or rolled in to the 1h + shield skill line, but the end result matters more than where it's implemented.

On paper it sounds insane, but in practice you need to have this skill slotted to have the same defensive impact as a frost staff when blocking. which takes up a valuable skill slot. it's not very cheap either for the active portion of the skill. this may de-incentivise you from using it in pvp. it may still just be better in most cases to just use a sword and shield on your backbar instead in pvp. because it would have the same effect as sword and shield but requiring a skill slot while giving less mitigation due to the shield's armor qualities.

My concern isn't with non-tanks using the active part of the skill, but using the passive part in lieu of an active defensive ability on a DPS, particularly in PvE. I can guarantee that many PvE DPS would pick this ability over a shield ability solely for the passive benefits. I just wouldn't want an ability meant to enable tanks to unintentionally be a buff for DPS.

ESO_Nightingale

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ATreeGnome wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Elemental Susceptibility(Morph of Weakness to Elements):

this skill is now the destruction staff equivalent to pierce armour and a taunt option over both it and inner fire. what it offers is the debuff of piercing armor and the range of inner fire along with optional block passives. It's downsides are that it doesn't deal any damage, and it has a much higher cost than both inner fire and pierce armour. it should be an option between inner fire and pierce armor, not a clear winner.

I like your ideas and the general idea of making Elemental Susceptibility a tanking skill, but I have an issue with this ability as it's stated. The passive 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation are very powerful passive defensive buffs that healers and DPS would have easy access to as well. A defensive ability that costs no resources and doesn't require use of a GCD is going to be a better alternative to things like Dampen Magic in many PvE situations and (I suspect) very powerful in PvP as well. There are two alternatives that come to my mind at the moment.

Option 1: Tie the bonuses to the number of heavy armor pieces equipped. So instead of 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation, it might be 5% block cost reduction and 3% block mitigation per piece of heavy armor equipped. This would make it unattractive to light armor wearers like DPS and healers.

Option 2: When the ability is equipped on either bar, you may also equip a shield and gain the 36% block cost reduction and 20% block mitigation and taunt function. I would prefer to see this as a new skill line or rolled in to the 1h + shield skill line, but the end result matters more than where it's implemented.

On paper it sounds insane, but in practice you need to have this skill slotted to have the same defensive impact as a frost staff when blocking. which takes up a valuable skill slot. it's not very cheap either for the active portion of the skill. this may de-incentivise you from using it in pvp. it may still just be better in most cases to just use a sword and shield on your backbar instead in pvp. because it would have the same effect as sword and shield but requiring a skill slot while giving less mitigation due to the shield's armor qualities.

My concern isn't with non-tanks using the active part of the skill, but using the passive part in lieu of an active defensive ability on a DPS, particularly in PvE. I can guarantee that many PvE DPS would pick this ability over a shield ability solely for the passive benefits. I just wouldn't want an ability meant to enable tanks to unintentionally be a buff for DPS.

Even if dps did use it i don't think its really too much of an issue at all, if people use annulment they can be far more active when being defensive. Where as when they'd use susc, they'd essentially only have a passive slot skill that makes their state of blocking better. It sounds like a fair trade to me.

Hotdog_23

Love the Elemental Susceptibility idea. But cost needs to be lowered. This would make magical tanking much more fun. Be a nice change of pace from S&B/staff to staff/staff tanking. Elemental susceptibility morph does need to give major fracture as well for this to work.

ESO_Nightingale

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Love the Elemental Susceptibility idea. But cost needs to be lowered. This would make magical tanking much more fun. Be a nice change of pace from S&B/staff to staff/staff tanking. Elemental susceptibility morph does need to give major fracture as well for this to work.

I hear you about the cost. I wanted to make it decently expensive as to not make it the clear go-to taunt over inner fire or pierce armour. I settled on a bit over 4k. as it would cost about 1200 more magicka than inner fire as it combines the range of inner fire, with the debuff of pierce armor.

Hotdog_23

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Love the Elemental Susceptibility idea. But cost needs to be lowered. This would make magical tanking much more fun. Be a nice change of pace from S&B/staff to staff/staff tanking. Elemental susceptibility morph does need to give major fracture as well for this to work.

I hear you about the cost. I wanted to make it decently expensive as to not make it the clear go-to taunt over inner fire or pierce armour. I settled on a bit over 4k. as it would cost about 1200 more magicka than inner fire as it combines the range of inner fire, with the debuff of pierce armor.

True but inner rage but gives a synergy. With puncture being 1350 stamina then Elemental Susceptibility should about 1550 or 1350x1.15=1552. Puncture does some damage and Elemental Susceptibility does none.

Rather inner rage be changed to a pure spammable damage skill only instead and lose the taunt if Elemental Susceptibility get a taunt feature. This would give builds another dps skill to use outside of class and weapons (namely stamsorc). Especially with one morph being stamina and one being magic. This way we would not need the taunt from inner rage. Morphs effects could be a small bleed for stamina and extra DOT of magic damage effect for magic morph. Or some method of self-heal.

ESO_Nightingale

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Love the Elemental Susceptibility idea. But cost needs to be lowered. This would make magical tanking much more fun. Be a nice change of pace from S&B/staff to staff/staff tanking. Elemental susceptibility morph does need to give major fracture as well for this to work.

I hear you about the cost. I wanted to make it decently expensive as to not make it the clear go-to taunt over inner fire or pierce armour. I settled on a bit over 4k. as it would cost about 1200 more magicka than inner fire as it combines the range of inner fire, with the debuff of pierce armor.

True but inner rage but gives a synergy. With puncture being 1350 stamina then Elemental Susceptibility should about 1550 or 1350x1.15=1552. Puncture does some damage and Elemental Susceptibility does none.

Rather inner rage be changed to a pure spammable damage skill only instead and lose the taunt if Elemental Susceptibility get a taunt feature. This would give builds another dps skill to use outside of class and weapons (namely stamsorc). Especially with one morph being stamina and one being magic. This way we would not need the taunt from inner rage. Morphs effects could be a small bleed for stamina and extra DOT of magic damage effect for magic morph. Or some method of self-heal.

elemental susceptibility has the massive benefit of being ranged though. that in itself is at least worth 2k more cost in my opinion.

Kolzki

Moving the block passive to a slotted skill passive while buffing it to match s&b blocking will lead to high damage high mitigation pvp builds. All the damage of an inferno staff with all the tankiness of s&b. Doesn’t seem balanced.

ESO_Nightingale

Kolzki wrote: »

Moving the block passive to a slotted skill passive while buffing it to match s&b blocking will lead to high damage high mitigation pvp builds. All the damage of an inferno staff with all the tankiness of s&b. Doesn’t seem balanced.

They are required to slot an expensive skill for the benefit of the blocking passive slot, People run frost staves in pvp right now and it's not overpowered. How it would work with this change is you can gain that 8% damage boost at the cost of losing a skill slot for the blocking passives. Doesn't seem overpowered to me.

Tessitura

Honestly, I don't agree with the changes, I understand you want it to do more damage, but for what reason? You already have a flame staff and lightning staff for damage, some tanks actually use ice staffs for their builds and you basically want to take that away from them so you can have another damage option.

I know it would be cool to have ice damage, I like ice too, but we don't -need- it with magicka builds. Now I have always been a proponent of more magicka weapon options since they seem to want to give stamina more class options. ( Which is weird to me since they want spells to be cast with stamina, but whatever. ) I just don't think frost staff needs a damage revamp when it's used for defense by plenty of people right now.

Now you can argue that the shield is not worth it, but honestly, in that case I would rather see the shield get stronger, not a complete revamp of it's purpose. I would honestly like to see it slow and freeze more, as a defensive /support weapon, instead of it taunting but another raw damage option is just not something we -need- from it.

ESO_Nightingale

Tessitura wrote: »

Honestly, I don't agree with the changes, I understand you want it to do more damage, but for what reason? You already have a flame staff and lightning staff for damage, some tanks actually use ice staffs for their builds and you basically want to take that away from them so you can have another damage option.

I know it would be cool to have ice damage, I like ice too, but we don't -need- it with magicka builds. Now I have always been a proponent of more magicka weapon options since they seem to want to give stamina more class options. ( Which is weird to me since they want spells to be cast with stamina, but whatever. ) I just don't think frost staff needs a damage revamp when it's used for defense by plenty of people right now.

Now you can argue that the shield is not worth it, but honestly, in that case I would rather see the shield get stronger, not a complete revamp of it's purpose. I would honestly like to see it slow and freeze more, as a defensive /support weapon, instead of it taunting but another raw damage option is just not something we -need- from it.

2 weapon options is just laughable. i'm not asking to remove the fact that it can be defensive as i'm asking to shift the passives to an unused morph of weakness to elements and to make the skill better for tanking overall this means that tanks who use a frost staff can continue to use it and have access to a great taunt+debuff skill.

there is not much choice for magicka. like you said, especially since stamina has Mauls, Greatswords, Battle Axes, Axes, Daggers, Swords, Maces and bows with a total of 4 total skill lines. we have 1 line and it's split 2:1 damage/tanking. this game already gives magicka way too few damage choices. It is a destruction staff, when frost was always about damage in every elder scrolls game, including this one until the morrowind patch. we DO need it. with these changes, it makes not only tanking better with more options, but it also gives us another choice to build around. it already slows and freezes a lot. and making it do more of that would make tank supports unnecessarily more powerful and oppressive in pvp. Making it more focused on defense/support with it's passives would destroy the chance of it finally being a damage weapon again which it needs to be for the health of magicka damage options. The fire and shock staves alone are not enough. they need a 3rd counterpart which can focus on something like crit. we've been asking for new damage options for a long time. keeping frost for a tanking role really stunts the future build choice if we get more magicka weapons.

Tessitura

No their isn't much choice, but the same goes for tanking builds too, taking one weapon choice away from them for us is not a solution, and no, the front loaded ability idea does not solve the issue, most tanks don't use ice cause they want to use destruction abilities and eat up more of the already limited ability slots they have, they want it for the passive effect they get from it without losing using up their ability slots. Tanks are not hurting for a another taunt ability, putting a taunt on a ability and adding the major Fracture along with a blocking passive just front loads the ability, making too good for most role types to pass up, especially in pvp.

I get that you want things to be a way that suits you, everyone wants that, but we can't always have it, both magicka builds and tank builds have limited weapon options, but we still usually have the best class options so we never needed more weapons. I am hoping that changes and we get new weapon types in the future, but Frost Staffs don't need to be damage staffs when we have two damage staffs that do the job better anyway with the same set of tools. Frost should remain a control/defensive weapon, as we have even less of those for weapon options.

ESO_Nightingale

Tessitura wrote: »

No their isn't much choice, but the same goes for tanking builds too, taking one weapon choice away from them for us is not a solution, and no, the front loaded ability idea does not solve the issue, most tanks don't use ice cause they want to use destruction abilities and eat up more of the already limited ability slots they have, they want it for the passive effect they get from it without losing using up their ability slots. Tanks are not hurting for a another taunt ability, putting a taunt on a ability and adding the major Fracture along with a blocking passive just front loads the ability, making too good for most role types to pass up, especially in pvp.

I get that you want things to be a way that suits you, everyone wants that, but we can't always have it, both magicka builds and tank builds have limited weapon options, but we still usually have the best class options so we never needed more weapons. I am hoping that changes and we get new weapon types in the future, but Frost Staffs don't need to be damage staffs when we have two damage staffs that do the job better anyway with the same set of tools. Frost should remain a control/defensive weapon, as we have even less of those for weapon options.

i don't see how it's frontloaded at all from a pvp perspective. if you were to use this on a pvp build, you have to give up a skill slot in order to have the blocking passives. if you don't need major breach, why not use a sword and shield instead? you get the same blocking passives without the need for a skill slot. you could use that passive slot for inner light, or another damage boosting skill. maybe even just use elemental drain instead. it doesn't have a cost and it gives magicka back to you via magicka steal. in pve i can see that adding major fracture might be an issue when compared to pierce armor, but then again, it would be an option over it. the idea was to make it much more expensive than pierce, and i'd be happy to oblige by increasing the cost even more, or even by reducing the range. but the shifting of block passives isn't an issue as you'd be able to have the option to replace a slot of pierce armour with the slot of elemental susceptibility.

The main point was shifting the taunt and the blocking passives over. since the heavy attack taunt has been a colossal issue for a long time. Most tanks i've seen use a lightning staff. this is definitely a boost to them if they wish to use the new skill. if anything, this helps out newer players by centralising the taunting debuff skill with the blocking passives. i don't see why you think we cant have tanking related skills but have damage passives. it benefits both tanks and dps if this change would get through because tanks could use fire, shock and frost staves to tank with, with dps being able to dps with all of the same staves. everyone benefits. how the frost staff is currently configured is undesirable and the majority of people want it to be for damage. The survey i conducted a while back on the forums concerning this issue gave me these results

3:2 in favour of DPS.
I'm not looking to destroy frost staff tanking at all. But it should be given dps passives back when we can look at other options for destruction staff tanking.

frozzzen101

I like the idea in theory but with such exorbitant cost I wouldn't touch it myself as s tank and would prefer to run eledrain + ranged taunt over this "option". If you want tank's opinion on it, I'd suggest you following:

Move minor magicka steal to base skill and remove breach.
Leave eledrain morph as it is now (on morph it gets breach instead of magicka steal).
Make new susceptibility to get taunt instead of breach, and IF you have ice staff equipped you get 36/20 block improvements.

Quite frankly I dislike the idea of having extreme cost associated with taunt. Even ZoS went to decrease cost of both taunts over and over and for a good reason. Tanks can already get major breach/fracture easily, and healers historically run eledrain for breach as well. I wouldn't like to pay 4k mag for this. On the other hand if I had option to freely/at a lot cost apply taunt and magsteal in one spell, that would likely mean additional skill slot as I wouldn't have to run both eledrain and ranged taunt in some situations.

So, give us very cheap/free taunt with minor magsteal and without pen bonuses (that tanks can get anyway via other means) instead of this high cost with penetration. And considering all magicka spells are balanced around having minor magickasteal on enemy, I don't see any problems allowing tanks to apply it easily, especially in pugs where group support is pretty much non existent.

Tessitura

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

No their isn't much choice, but the same goes for tanking builds too, taking one weapon choice away from them for us is not a solution, and no, the front loaded ability idea does not solve the issue, most tanks don't use ice cause they want to use destruction abilities and eat up more of the already limited ability slots they have, they want it for the passive effect they get from it without losing using up their ability slots. Tanks are not hurting for a another taunt ability, putting a taunt on a ability and adding the major Fracture along with a blocking passive just front loads the ability, making too good for most role types to pass up, especially in pvp.

I get that you want things to be a way that suits you, everyone wants that, but we can't always have it, both magicka builds and tank builds have limited weapon options, but we still usually have the best class options so we never needed more weapons. I am hoping that changes and we get new weapon types in the future, but Frost Staffs don't need to be damage staffs when we have two damage staffs that do the job better anyway with the same set of tools. Frost should remain a control/defensive weapon, as we have even less of those for weapon options.

i don't see how it's frontloaded at all from a pvp perspective. if you were to use this on a pvp build, you have to give up a skill slot in order to have the blocking passives. if you don't need major breach, why not use a sword and shield instead? you get the same blocking passives without the need for a skill slot. you could use that passive slot for inner light, or another damage boosting skill. maybe even just use elemental drain instead. it doesn't have a cost and it gives magicka back to you via magicka steal. in pve i can see that adding major fracture might be an issue when compared to pierce armor, but then again, it would be an option over it. the idea was to make it much more expensive than pierce, and i'd be happy to oblige by increasing the cost even more, or even by reducing the range. but the shifting of block passives isn't an issue as you'd be able to have the option to replace a slot of pierce armour with the slot of elemental susceptibility.

The main point was shifting the taunt and the blocking passives over. since the heavy attack taunt has been a colossal issue for a long time. Most tanks i've seen use a lightning staff. this is definitely a boost to them if they wish to use the new skill. if anything, this helps out newer players by centralising the taunting debuff skill with the blocking passives. i don't see why you think we cant have tanking related skills but have damage passives. it benefits both tanks and dps if this change would get through because tanks could use fire, shock and frost staves to tank with, with dps being able to dps with all of the same staves. everyone benefits. how the frost staff is currently configured is undesirable and the majority of people want it to be for damage. The survey i conducted a while back on the forums concerning this issue gave me these results

3:2 in favour of DPS.
I'm not looking to destroy frost staff tanking at all. But it should be given dps passives back when we can look at other options for destruction staff tanking.

How can you not see it as frontloaded for pvp? The tuant doesn't matter there and you are softening a dude up for all damage types, plus you get major block buffs for free without having to be concerned for the weapon in your hand, so you get a buff of defense and can use any staff you want for that defense. The sword and board would drop from a lot of builds in favor of that and they wouldn't even have to cast it until they wanted to do damage.

As for your statistics, your test group is only 174 people, which is a very small number, not good enough for me to take seriously, on top of that, statistics are a weak form of determination for direction. Less tanking options is often why there is less tanks in game, but also because of the game play type and how difficult it can be since it's a supportive group role. But let's go ahead and accept your statistic's for the sake of argument, just because there are less tanks, does not mean there should be less options for them, in fact, there should be more to encourage more people to play them.

Kolzki

Just checking in here after two consecutive dungeons with two different DDs taunting bosses with a frost staff. Can we please remove that taunt?

ESO_Nightingale

frozzzen101 wrote: »

I like the idea in theory but with such exorbitant cost I wouldn't touch it myself as s tank and would prefer to run eledrain + ranged taunt over this "option". If you want tank's opinion on it, I'd suggest you following:

Move minor magicka steal to base skill and remove breach.
Leave eledrain morph as it is now (on morph it gets breach instead of magicka steal).
Make new susceptibility to get taunt instead of breach, and IF you have ice staff equipped you get 36/20 block improvements.

Quite frankly I dislike the idea of having extreme cost associated with taunt. Even ZoS went to decrease cost of both taunts over and over and for a good reason. Tanks can already get major breach/fracture easily, and healers historically run eledrain for breach as well. I wouldn't like to pay 4k mag for this. On the other hand if I had option to freely/at a lot cost apply taunt and magsteal in one spell, that would likely mean additional skill slot as I wouldn't have to run both eledrain and ranged taunt in some situations.

So, give us very cheap/free taunt with minor magsteal and without pen bonuses (that tanks can get anyway via other means) instead of this high cost with penetration. And considering all magicka spells are balanced around having minor magickasteal on enemy, I don't see any problems allowing tanks to apply it easily, especially in pugs where group support is pretty much non existent.

I actually like the idea of a taunt with minor magicka steal. I think it specifically targetting frost staff with the block passives isn't needed though. It's still a required skill slot. Thanks for the idea!

Swen_von_Walhallion

Actualy from tank position this idea of Elemental Susceptibility is horrible, as tank in endgame contet you are always short on spots skills and this make situation even worse. It result in lower suport for your group or in lower survivability of tank and whole group with him.

ESO_Nightingale

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Actualy from tank position this idea of Elemental Susceptibility is horrible, as tank in endgame contet you are always short on spots skills and this make situation even worse. It result in lower suport for your group or in lower survivability of tank and whole group with him.

The idea is that it can act as a replacement for pierce armor in terms of it's effects (which I'm currently revising to find a better balance). So it wouldn't really be just another tank skill to slot.

VaxtinTheWolf

I don't think many tanks would want to front bar an ice staff, which i assume is implied from those adjustments? because sword and shield still reduces the block speed penalty. I only skimmed the thread so i don't know if it was considered or addressed already. So even if the ability did have a taunt, it wouldn't be on the bar most would spend their time on, which is likely to remain sword and shield

ESO_Nightingale

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

I don't think many tanks would want to front bar an ice staff, which i assume is implied from those adjustments? because sword and shield still reduces the block speed penalty. I only skimmed the thread so i don't know if it was considered or addressed already. So even if the ability did have a taunt, it wouldn't be on the bar most would spend their time on, which is likely to remain sword and shield

The idea was to make the destruction staff have access to its own taunt which isn't tied to the heavy attack along with having the current frost staff passive applied to it as a passive slot.
using pain points from a long while ago where people wanted to taunt without the need for a sword and shield. Meaning it would have the addition of major breach and fracture, mirroring pierce armor. Now it mainly just means that it would mirror pierce armor and not create just another tank skill that tanks don't have room for. This skill would certainly help a lot of newer tanks out while allowing magicka dps access to another weapon choice. Currently a massive majority of tanks use lightning staves instead. So it would create a bit of a pathway to that, as people get more experienced with tanking. my hope is that the choice between pierce armor and elemental susceptibility would be down to personal preference. as i don't want to just completely wash pierce armor away. i'm even thinking of reducing the range to 5m and reducing the cost back down to about 2.2k or so to continue inner fire's reign as a 28m taunt.

Kadoozy

I think the change to the mostly unused morph of ele drain is one of the better ideas the community has had. It practically sees no use, and this would allow any destruction staff for tanking rather than only frost, while also opening frost up for a much deserved buff.

Whatever that buff is I wouldn't know. It should get something though, after 6 years it deserves to be viable.

ESO_Nightingale

Kadoozy wrote: »

I think the change to the mostly unused morph of ele drain is one of the better ideas the community has had. It practically sees no use, and this would allow any destruction staff for tanking rather than only frost, while also opening frost up for a much deserved buff.

Whatever that buff is I wouldn't know. It should get something though, after 6 years it deserves to be viable.

i try to suggest changes to underused morphs because i don't want them to be just always worse.

Athan1

I kinda like the ice element being used for cc and tanking, but the frost staff isn't as viable as snb. If frost staff needs to stay as magicka tanking option, at least make it on par with snb.

josiahva

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

With these changes to several passives, now would have been a great time to change how the frost staff works. The Frost Staff Tri-Focus is still a huge issue in both PvE, now PvP too. Now that heavy attacks are incentivised more, it's going to be a bit of an issue if you're running the frost staff as a backbar weapon, say, in PvP with a fire staff on front, these changes mean that you either have to not take tri focus and lose out on the massive 12% damage boost on fire staff, or do take it, and then your backbar blocking costs magicka which can really screw you over. if these... interesting changes make it through, the frost staff should really be looked at.

Here are suggestions to make the passives benefit DPS magicka builds.

Frost Tri Focus:
this is a really rough suggestion. i'm open to something similar-ish but it's just a general idea that is not set in stone.



Frost Ancient Knowledge:
bonus critical damage to open this weapon for magicka critical builds.


OR
(Roughly 7% crit)

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The goal of these changes is not to remove destruction staff tanking, but to make the passives benefit the damage dealer instead of being bad for both the group and the player, where as the already existing tanking passives should be shifted to a tanking-only taunt skill, as to give magicka dps more options for magic weapons and to give tanks a defined taunting skill. This would additionally mean less DPS taunting enemies. the weakness to elements skill and it's morphs have been targeted to provide this benefit.


Weakness to Elements:
This skill has been changed to give less text to elemental susceptibility as it would have been way too long. the changes that have been made, are that the base morph now has a cost, a 5m range and a reduction to it's duration. down to 11 seconds. it will then rank up to 14 seconds. the change to the base skill may seem pretty harsh but it's just to cut down on the "new effect" text. it doesn't even have to change.

Elemental Drain

this morph doesn't actually change, it just gains some new effect text because of the changes to elemental susceptibility.


Elemental Susceptibility(Morph of Weakness to Elements):

this skill is now the destruction staff equivalent to pierce armour and a taunt option over both it and inner fire. what it offers is the debuff of piercing armor along with optional block passives. It's downsides are that it doesn't deal any damage, has a higher cost than pierce armour and it has 1 less second of duration on the taunt. it should be an option between inner fire and pierce armor that helps newer players, but not always a clear winner.

Changes to the skill are:
The skill is given a taunt, major fracture, a cost, a range reduction to 5 meters, a duration reduction to 14 seconds and while slotted with a destruction staff, the ancient knowledge passives that are currently stuck to the frost staff.



i'm not against suggestions for tweaks to the skill, but this should be fairer to use when compared to pierce armor. the previous incarnation had around 2x the cost, but it retained 28 meters of range.

As a tank...I love having the ice staff as it is. The fact of the matter is that DPS already have 2 DPS magicka weapons...tanks only have 1. Full Stop. Yes, I know stamina players have tons...but as a tank, I need to restore magicka as well as stamina...so I swap to my back bar, heavy attack an enemy, and as a nice bonus, taunt them too. This is especially handy in certain fights that allow me to spam heavy-attack taunt and then heal(Lord Warden, Domihaus, etc) it essentially gives me free healing for as long I continue this....your changes may still be a free taunt(and a faster one with it being weakness to elements change) but that change does NOT let me restore magicka at the same time...and as such its a lot less useful. I already have a fast ranged taunt with inner fire, I dont need another one, that isn't the main use of the ice staff taunt.

I understand and even agree that DPS should have more magicka weapon choices...but so should tanks...but until we have an alteration staff, or a one hand and rune skill line(as long as one of those runes is tanking oriented) we need to keep the ice staff as it is.

Onefrkncrzypope

I like the ele idea.

keep the Ice staff story based on armor.

Ha-> minor armor buff
Chilled-> a unique armor debuff not tied to minor/major setup
Blockade still slows and roots chill targets

Makes it helpful but not OP for DPS without taking the staff away from tanks.

Xebov

Athan1 wrote: »

I kinda like the ice element being used for cc and tanking, but the frost staff isn't as viable as snb. If frost staff needs to stay as magicka tanking option, at least make it on par with snb.

They need to split the staffs up into 3 seperate skill lines to make this happen.

Canned_Apples

Nothing like this, or anything, will happen.
They're perfectly comfortable creating a game around proc sets.

YandereGirlfriend

I certainly support the cause of FrostDPS but honestly I would just leave Tri-Focus as it is and allow the tanks to keep their free taunt (until, as has been said, we get an Alteration Staff).

You probably could add something more valuable than a tiny damage shield to the Frost Heavy Attack though, like maybe an Armor Shred of 1000 that lasts for the duration of the taunt. That would be useful for tanks and DPS alike depending upon the context (such as soloing) and would give groups a definite reason to include at least one Frost Staff user (likely the tank) in their compositions.

As for Ancient Knowledge, I think that the idea of increased Critical Damage is fantastic as it fits thematically (frozen things are extremely brittle) and is well-balanced with respect to the Flame Staff passive (Lightning still needs some love though). I would also leave the blocking passive in Ancient Knowledge and just be okay with the passive helping both tanks and DPS.

I do very much like the idea of giving the seldom-used Elemental Susceptibility both MFracture and MBreach though. But I also think that the skill should still remain free-to-cast as it currently is.