Sancre Tor, this is how easy the game has become.

FierceSam · February 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[*] We can agree, overland quests are meant for new players. Most people understand this. The problem is, over 50% of the new content in this game per year is designed for overland, quests and exploration. Hell those are some of the reasons this MMO is so amazing. Yet players who understand the game mechanics, have CP and use food can't possibly enjoy any of it because it's like playing Olbivion on ultra easy mode. It takes away all fun out of the new content and frankly turns off players who want to enjoy the new DLC and Chapters. There is absolutely no reason ZOS can't implement a difficulty slider or buff/debuff system that gives gives level 50, 160cp+ players a more challenging experience . If ZOS can upscale level 10-49, then they sure as hell can downscale level 50, 160cp+ players too.
Inb4 someone says "The game can barely handle ability effects, it can't possibly handle a difficulty slider."

Give 3 options that each progressively make your character weaker, but offer a modest bonus to experience/gold/drop rate. Which, by the way, this buff to drop rate already exists on the PTS. If you play a 4 man dungeon with a player that has never done it before, you get a buff in your character sheet that increases drop rate by an unknown amount, but also your gold gain by like 5% I think. You can also look at eso plus and racial passives for all the % increase modifiers they've implemented.

[/list]

Can we stop acting like new players need to be coddled like newborn babies. It should be easy, but acting like they won't understand what to do in a mmo rpg rated 18+ is like saying a new player in Call of Duty won't understand how to press fire to shoot their weapon, it takes all of an hour to learn most of the basic mechanics of a game..

You don't need to destroy the new player experience to make it more enjoyable for veteran players. Some more meaningful mechanics on player quested bosses would go a long way in teaching them how the game works, as well as tuning down at least the Major/Minor buff scaling so that these random and fluxuating stats don't further confuse new players.

Hey dude,

Interesting post. I disagree with many of your assumptions.

1. Overland quests are not meant for new players, they’re meant for everyone. They’re just designed for a ‘new player’ level of difficulty (which we’ll all agree is not that difficult). As someone who uses food and buffs I can and do enjoy them. They are fun stories.

2. You’re assuming that combat challenge is the only form of enjoyment players get from the game. I don’t. I can enjoy the quests for what they are, cool stories that have meaning for my character and make me feel like a principal actor in the drama.

3. I suspect that given this is an MMORPG where you’re not the only player, there are probably many and varied good reasons why ZOS can’t actually “implement a difficulty slider”. And even if there weren’t and ZOS could, I suspect it would never be sophisticated enough to cater for the demands of players who want quests to be more challenging.

4. I love the way that as soon as players get their ‘more challenging’ quest content they admit that really it’s all about extra rewards because “it’s more difficult”. And justify that by saying “well no one’s going to do the harder version if they don’t get a better reward”.

5. Questing isn’t about teaching new players how to play the game. It is playing the game. And I don’t expect new players to have a lot of skills or abilities or gear when they’re finishing a questline on what might be their first week. If they’re anything like I was they will be likely finishing it with a mish mash of totally underlevelled white or green gear, no food or drink, no potions or buffs, limited skills and little game knowledge. And they need to win 99% of the time.

6. If you want to talk about how easy it is to learn, consider that CoD’s entire single player game element is a tutorial designed to get players into the online game. It’s long and goes into a lot of detail and new players are still no good at the game when they have finished it (because hey PvP is a blast eh). In contrast ESO’s latest tutorial involves you light attacking 3 times. And that’s about it. Next step dragons.

So forgive me if I’m a little disparaging when some long term player tells me how it’s a disgrace that he’s able to beat a questboss with a fully kitted out and buffed character and years of experience simply by light attacking a lot.

I don’t want questing to be more challenging for me if that’s going to [snip] up the game for lots of new players.

[edited for profanity bypass]

The Uninvited · February 2020

Cirantille wrote: »

This is obvious troll topic.

No one in the world can defend the overland content by saying they are crafting sets with bonus pieces and craftable food.

Reminds me of my days in July 2019. Level 1 recipe, no bank space no eso+ no money to buy space whatsoever
Gathering whatever I get from Auridon quests together
Living on crown store food by daily log ins
I use them accordingly for more difficult quests so they wont run out
Using sip of health potions till I get my alchemy leveled up

So easy yeah

For my level 6 doing daily WBs easy, because she runs with Julianos and Seducer pieces with witchmothers potent brew lol

The crown store food is tri-stat, the food I used was max health/stam recovery just because I had it in the bank from way back when. Your food would have provided better stats even. You even used potions, I didn't.

The crafted gear was level 16, all training traits, no mundus stone. If I should not use crafted gear below level 50, then what's the point of all the low level crafting materials? I might as well stop subscribing for the craft bag. Hey, now there's an idea...

The Uninvited · February 2020

Sevn wrote: »

Unless you can forget everything you have learned over the past years there is no getting that high back from that same content.

But I did the quest as if I forgot everything, I just used light attacks.

The Uninvited · February 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Wow. People are super defensive about this in a condecending manor to OP as if they're just disagreeing for the sake of arguing @The_Uninvited. I fully understand what you're trying to say. In the tutorial, it tries to teach you about the main mechanics of the game, block/roll/dodge, but when you get into overland or main story quests, it's like the game entirely forgets these mechanics when it should be the best time to teach them this.

It's fair to say the level scaling is too much. In case people weren't aware. Using gear that matches your level, aka the stars you find at the top of the character sheet will make EVERYTHING more powerful. Major Brutality which is suppose to give 20% weapon damage gives something like 30%. Your HP becomes tank level of HP.

On paper, this is how it has to be done since they can't make enemies stronger as you get closer to level 50, so they have to work in the reverse by making the player stronger, then weaker until they get closer to max level. This is fine, the good intention is there.. but it definitely hurts the experience for new players rather then helping them.
Making your player more powerful from a low level gives them a false sense of how the progression in the game works. I've had many players speak with me, thinking they were doing something wrong ( I hang out in the starting chapters/zones sometimes), because they actually started to notice their inflated stats, buffs and debuffs began to get weaker as they leveled. No one and I mean no one, enjoys progressing in an RPG just to get weaker. We all enjoy vertical progression at those early levels, thats why it's fun to make new characters and get stronger while you're learning the game. Instead the reverse happens.

This idea of reverse upscaling low players instead of making content harder, is too much and too broad. If this is the solution ZOS MUST go with. Make it hidden to the player. There is no reason to show a player, this set gives 50 WPD to equip it and find out it gives 350 WPD, when the set at max level should give 300 WPD. This is extremely confusing for new players. It's not just sets though, it's Minor/Major buffs, base stats. It's everything. Why would you upscale buffs and debuffs to the point where players think Major Brutality is suppose to give +30% WPD...

We can agree, overland quests are meant for new players. Most people understand this. The problem is, over 50% of the new content in this game per year is designed for overland, quests and exploration. Hell those are some of the reasons this MMO is so amazing. Yet players who understand the game mechanics, have CP and use food can't possibly enjoy any of it because it's like playing Olbivion on ultra easy mode. It takes away all fun out of the new content and frankly turns off players who want to enjoy the new DLC and Chapters. There is absolutely no reason ZOS can't implement a difficulty slider or buff/debuff system that gives gives level 50, 160cp+ players a more challenging experience . If ZOS can upscale level 10-49, then they sure as hell can downscale level 50, 160cp+ players too.
Inb4 someone says "The game can barely handle ability effects, it can't possibly handle a difficulty slider."

Give 3 options that each progressively make your character weaker, but offer a modest bonus to experience/gold/drop rate. Which, by the way, this buff to drop rate already exists on the PTS. If you play a 4 man dungeon with a player that has never done it before, you get a buff in your character sheet that increases drop rate by an unknown amount, but also your gold gain by like 5% I think. You can also look at eso plus and racial passives for all the % increase modifiers they've implemented.

Can we stop acting like new players need to be coddled like newborn babies. It should be easy, but acting like they won't understand what to do in a mmo rpg rated 18+ is like saying a new player in Call of Duty won't understand how to press fire to shoot their weapon, it takes all of an hour to learn most of the basic mechanics of a game..

You don't need to destroy the new player experience to make it more enjoyable for veteran players. Some more meaningful mechanics on player quested bosses would go a long way in teaching them how the game works, as well as tuning down at least the Major/Minor buff scaling so that these random and fluxuating stats don't further confuse new players.

This is exactly what I mean, thank you.

The Uninvited · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

starkerealm · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

The Uninvited · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

I am not saying that the only relevant skill in ESO is using active abilities.

I am saying that all I did was light attack and moved the camera angle around to aim. So not just not using active abilities, also not dodging/kiting/blocking/break free and whatever else a skilled player might do or use.

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

TequilaFire · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

Player skill you can't, but you can look at CP level and equipment bonus.
Scaling a hard encounter down is meant more for the newer player anyway.
I think you just like to argue. lol

Cerotonin · February 2020

It’d be interesting if the difficulty increased with your account’s CP and stats. I do remember having trouble during my first playthrough lol.

Mannimarco is pretty anticlimactic though. When Molag Bal slams him into the ground, the other companions just walk it off as if nothing happened.

Elsonso · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

I am not saying that the only relevant skill in ESO is using active abilities.

I am saying that all I did was light attack and moved the camera angle around to aim. So not just not using active abilities, also not dodging/kiting/blocking/break free and whatever else a skilled player might do or use.

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this has progressed to the point where you need to create a video. Start with your character, build, and gear. After that, take down the boss using only light attacks, while self-rooted.

starkerealm · February 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

Player skill you can't, but you can look at CP level and equipment bonus.
Scaling a hard encounter down is meant more for the newer player anyway.

Except, CP doesn't mean anything. A player who got to CP160 from running content, and learning what they're doing is going to be way more proficient than a CP810 who got there from Skyreach carries.

It also doesn't account for current skill level. If you take a break from the game for three years, and come back, there'd be no way to get back up to speed and remember how to play if difficulty scaled based on account CP. Finally, we'd get people wandering in wondering why, suddenly, their level 20 is getting curb stomped at every turn, and it would only be three pages later we'd learn it was because their main just hit level 50, and ranked up to CP100 over the weekend.

TequilaFire wrote: »

I think you just like to argue. lol

No. But, if you're going to make a suggestion, at least try to put it in the general vicinity of something that's possible.

starkerealm · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Dude, have you seen new players?

They'll light attack, then they'll use an ability that does way less damage and wait for the animation to finish. They'll sit there and snipe spam (because, "it does so much damage.") They'll hard cast frags. They will run around screaming instead of dealing damage. They will do some stupid things.

Hilariously, standing in one place and using light attacks consistently is above their skill level.

TequilaFire · February 2020

What I suggested is completely technically possible since these quests are solo instances.
If you have skill and have done it before of course you will have and edge, but at least it won't be as much of a face roll anymore. And the problem of new players that don't have experience are covered by the fact that the difficulty is lowered based on their stats.
Are you suggesting to not ever do the quests on an alt just because you have already done them?
There has to be a compromise solution to make it better.

starkerealm · February 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

What I suggested is completely technically possible since these quests are solo instances.

This is technically correct, however, it doesn't address the problem that it was meant to solve, at all.

The problem with your solution is: CP =! Player Skill.

TequilaFire · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

What I suggested is completely technically possible since these quests are solo instances.

This is technically correct, however, it doesn't address the problem that it was meant to solve, at all.

The problem with your solution is: CP =! Player Skill.

And you keep ignoring the fact I keep saying of course you can't calculate skill.
But as it is it takes very little skill to do these quests in the first place.
And that is the problem.
BTW -What would be your solution?

Coppes · February 2020

Aptonoth wrote: »

No combat in any mmo has ever been hard or challenging.

No, combat has been hard in every MMO but over the years they always end up lowering the difficulty.

Happened in SWTOR, GW2, WOW and ESO.

For example in SWTOR, your class final boss was supposed to be the hardest enemy you fought in your class story requiring you to use stims and adrenals (food/drink and potions) and your interrupts while being properly geared (both you can your companion).

Now you can defeat it with an auto-attack.

Septimus_Magna · February 2020

There really should be a veteran overland mode, even if its just the same health and damage multiplier used to scale normal dungeons to veteran. I dont want to fight a boss at the end of a quest line that dies before my rotation is finished. Its very anticlimactic when you finally save a town from an evil necromancer that was slightly strong than a mudcrab. They dont have to be on the difficulty level of vMA bosses ofc but it should feel like you fight an enemy that takes some time to kill.

Even if ZOS doesnt want to raise the boss dmg output for casual players, which I can somewhat understand, at least give the bosses 1m health. Even if you only deal 10k dps thats just a 100 second fight which is by no means long compared to the overall time it takes to complete the average quest. Its also a good way for new players to practice combat (and possibly even a rotation) in a immersive environment. At least its better than standing in front of a target dummy for hours.

Sevn · February 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

I am not saying that the only relevant skill in ESO is using active abilities.

I am saying that all I did was light attack and moved the camera angle around to aim. So not just not using active abilities, also not dodging/kiting/blocking/break free and whatever else a skilled player might do or use.

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this has progressed to the point where you need to create a video. Start with your character, build, and gear. After that, take down the boss using only light attacks, while self-rooted.

I concur. I tire of these "I only used..." trust me on that examples. Just reminds me of when players claim to beat a world boss at level 4 with a white sword.

Still doesn't address the main dilemma though, how does Zos unilaterally decide on what is challenging for player A while not being too challenging for player B, while player C needs it even more challenging than player B but not as challenging as player A?

starkerealm · February 2020

TequilaFire wrote: »

BTW -What would be your solution?

Leave as is. The encounters work as intended. They're not going to drive new players from the game, and existing players will only run them if they want the skill point, want the content, or want to prime interactions with NPCs in later content (Lyris, Sai, Tharn, ect.)

Sancre Tor works and is accessible. Because this is a solo-only instance, you do not have the failsafe of being able to bring another player in to assist someone who's struggling. Because of One Tamriel, it's not possible to outlevel the content to make things easier.

So, yes, leave as is.

The Uninvited · February 2020

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Dude, have you seen new players?

They'll light attack, then they'll use an ability that does way less damage and wait for the animation to finish. They'll sit there and snipe spam (because, "it does so much damage.") They'll hard cast frags. They will run around screaming instead of dealing damage. They will do some stupid things.

Hilariously, standing in one place and using light attacks consistently is above their skill level.

Actually, I did about an hour ago while doing the Vampire Orchard quest in Coldharbour. You're absolutely right on that!

The Uninvited · February 2020

Sevn wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

I am not saying that the only relevant skill in ESO is using active abilities.

I am saying that all I did was light attack and moved the camera angle around to aim. So not just not using active abilities, also not dodging/kiting/blocking/break free and whatever else a skilled player might do or use.

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this has progressed to the point where you need to create a video. Start with your character, build, and gear. After that, take down the boss using only light attacks, while self-rooted.

I concur. I tire of these "I only used..." trust me on that examples. Just reminds me of when players claim to beat a world boss at level 4 with a white sword.

Still doesn't address the main dilemma though, how does Zos unilaterally decide on what is challenging for player A while not being too challenging for player B, while player C needs it even more challenging than player B but not as challenging as player A?

Fine, then both of you don't believe me, your choice.

It's funny though when people just make a U-turn from "you had CP allocated and gear and food and 5 years of experience!" to "if he really only used light attacks it must not be true".

I am trying to address a "problem" and am willing to discuss this with others so that's why I posted it on the forum. You're reaction has now become "he must be lying so there is no problem!"

Wonder why they made veteran modes of the Craglorn trials? Because people were able to run them in under 15 minutes or faster, because of stack & burn tactics and so on. They didn't even see mechanics on some stages.

That's why I mentioned the Village of the Lost public dungeon, that now feels like how the original Sancre Tor solo quest felt.

You know, you attack a boss and it CC's you, so you have to break free or it throws an AOE so you step out of the red or you see your health dropping so you use a healing ability or potion. Still super easy because of my stats/gear/experience and so on, of course, but at least a bit more engaging.

Rave the Histborn · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

For the very last time, and for everyone that is saying I went in with fully crafted gear set, food and skills...

All I did was LIGHT ATTACKS ffs!

You say that like light attacks don't do significant damage.

As you already know, your light attack damage scales of your weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka (depending on the weapon.) This means you already understand how to stack light attack damage, so you already know how to build into it. More than that, you chose build into it when you ate food.

You're, literally, taking (low end) vet dungeon DPS into a quest encounter and saying, "this isn't hard."

I never said that light attacks don't do significant damage. The food I ate is max health/stam recovery. I was at level 21 with level 16 gear, which I would hardly call "vet dungeon DPS".

All I am saying is, light attacks shouldn't be the only thing needed to complete a quest that was supposed to be just a tiny bit harder than the rest of overland.

So what is your plan because I'm confused. You went fairly set up even though it wasn't meta and you think the story mode stuff should be harder even though it's supposed to be on par with the base game.

I know you're not going to like this answer but you can't expect your 14th alt to have the same difficulty clearing the game as your first. Increasing the difficulty isnt going to help, finding a new game to play sometimes will help with your boredom.

TheFM · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I started this game in March 2014 and completed the main quest line twice in less than 2 months time. I never found Sancre Tor scary and I was doing the quests as soon I could so I was at level.

I am not suggesting things have not gotten easier. The power creep in this game has been very real with nothing to reset it.

I am not talking about doing the quest at the right level, but it used to take way more tactics like dodge rolling, kiting, blocking and using heals.

Not light attacking only.

Yeah, i remember dying on that clannfear quite a few times. Now i could spit on it and it would explode. The bar has fallen quite a bit. I remember testing clockwork city with no cp, naked, no weapons with only fists and still couldnt be even remotely damaged.

TheFM · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[*] We can agree, overland quests are meant for new players. Most people understand this. The problem is, over 50% of the new content in this game per year is designed for overland, quests and exploration. Hell those are some of the reasons this MMO is so amazing. Yet players who understand the game mechanics, have CP and use food can't possibly enjoy any of it because it's like playing Olbivion on ultra easy mode. It takes away all fun out of the new content and frankly turns off players who want to enjoy the new DLC and Chapters. There is absolutely no reason ZOS can't implement a difficulty slider or buff/debuff system that gives gives level 50, 160cp+ players a more challenging experience . If ZOS can upscale level 10-49, then they sure as hell can downscale level 50, 160cp+ players too.
Inb4 someone says "The game can barely handle ability effects, it can't possibly handle a difficulty slider."

Give 3 options that each progressively make your character weaker, but offer a modest bonus to experience/gold/drop rate. Which, by the way, this buff to drop rate already exists on the PTS. If you play a 4 man dungeon with a player that has never done it before, you get a buff in your character sheet that increases drop rate by an unknown amount, but also your gold gain by like 5% I think. You can also look at eso plus and racial passives for all the % increase modifiers they've implemented.

[/list]

Can we stop acting like new players need to be coddled like newborn babies. It should be easy, but acting like they won't understand what to do in a mmo rpg rated 18+ is like saying a new player in Call of Duty won't understand how to press fire to shoot their weapon, it takes all of an hour to learn most of the basic mechanics of a game..

You don't need to destroy the new player experience to make it more enjoyable for veteran players. Some more meaningful mechanics on player quested bosses would go a long way in teaching them how the game works, as well as tuning down at least the Major/Minor buff scaling so that these random and fluxuating stats don't further confuse new players.

Hey dude,

Interesting post. I disagree with many of your assumptions.

1. Overland quests are not meant for new players, they’re meant for everyone. They’re just designed for a ‘new player’ level of difficulty (which we’ll all agree is not that difficult). As someone who uses food and buffs I can and do enjoy them. They are fun stories.

2. You’re assuming that combat challenge is the only form of enjoyment players get from the game. I don’t. I can enjoy the quests for what they are, cool stories that have meaning for my character and make me feel like a principal actor in the drama.

3. I suspect that given this is an MMORPG where you’re not the only player, there are probably many and varied good reasons why ZOS can’t actually “implement a difficulty slider”. And even if there weren’t and ZOS could, I suspect it would never be sophisticated enough to cater for the demands of players who want quests to be more challenging.

4. I love the way that as soon as players get their ‘more challenging’ quest content they admit that really it’s all about extra rewards because “it’s more difficult”. And justify that by saying “well no one’s going to do the harder version if they don’t get a better reward”.

5. Questing isn’t about teaching new players how to play the game. It is playing the game. And I don’t expect new players to have a lot of skills or abilities or gear when they’re finishing a questline on what might be their first week. If they’re anything like I was they will be likely finishing it with a mish mash of totally underlevelled white or green gear, no food or drink, no potions or buffs, limited skills and little game knowledge. And they need to win 99% of the time.

6. If you want to talk about how easy it is to learn, consider that CoD’s entire single player game element is a tutorial designed to get players into the online game. It’s long and goes into a lot of detail and new players are still no good at the game when they have finished it (because hey PvP is a blast eh). In contrast ESO’s latest tutorial involves you light attacking 3 times. And that’s about it. Next step dragons.

So forgive me if I’m a little disparaging when some long term player tells me how it’s a disgrace that he’s able to beat a questboss with a fully kitted out and buffed character and years of experience simply by light attacking a lot.

I don’t want questing to be more challenging for me if that’s going to [snip] up the game for lots of new players.

That is actually the way the game works tho, more challenging c ontent - better rewards. It is how mmos have always been. And the less challenging the less the rewards. Also, I would gladly do more difficult content with equal rewards as a compromise.

[edited to remove quote]

The Uninvited · February 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

For the very last time, and for everyone that is saying I went in with fully crafted gear set, food and skills...

All I did was LIGHT ATTACKS ffs!

You say that like light attacks don't do significant damage.

As you already know, your light attack damage scales of your weapon/spell damage and max stamina/magicka (depending on the weapon.) This means you already understand how to stack light attack damage, so you already know how to build into it. More than that, you chose build into it when you ate food.

You're, literally, taking (low end) vet dungeon DPS into a quest encounter and saying, "this isn't hard."

I never said that light attacks don't do significant damage. The food I ate is max health/stam recovery. I was at level 21 with level 16 gear, which I would hardly call "vet dungeon DPS".

All I am saying is, light attacks shouldn't be the only thing needed to complete a quest that was supposed to be just a tiny bit harder than the rest of overland.

So what is your plan because I'm confused. You went fairly set up even though it wasn't meta and you think the story mode stuff should be harder even though it's supposed to be on par with the base game.

I know you're not going to like this answer but you can't expect your 14th alt to have the same difficulty clearing the game as your first. Increasing the difficulty isnt going to help, finding a new game to play sometimes will help with your boredom.

And I don't expect my 14th alt to have the same difficulty clearing the game. All I expect is that at least at one moment in that quest, I would have to dodge/block/break free/kite (not all of them, just pick one or two) to just have it be a bit more engaging.

I already said before that I don't want it to be super hard on new players or over-tuned like it was at launch. And if you're still confused about my plan, I already said it in my last remark on the post you quoted.

All I am saying is, light attacks shouldn't be the only thing needed to complete a quest that was supposed to be just a tiny bit harder than the rest of overland.

Elsonso · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

I am not saying that the only relevant skill in ESO is using active abilities.

I am saying that all I did was light attack and moved the camera angle around to aim. So not just not using active abilities, also not dodging/kiting/blocking/break free and whatever else a skilled player might do or use.

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this has progressed to the point where you need to create a video. Start with your character, build, and gear. After that, take down the boss using only light attacks, while self-rooted.

I concur. I tire of these "I only used..." trust me on that examples. Just reminds me of when players claim to beat a world boss at level 4 with a white sword.

Still doesn't address the main dilemma though, how does Zos unilaterally decide on what is challenging for player A while not being too challenging for player B, while player C needs it even more challenging than player B but not as challenging as player A?

Fine, then both of you don't believe me, your choice.

It's funny though when people just make a U-turn from "you had CP allocated and gear and food and 5 years of experience!" to "if he really only used light attacks it must not be true".

I am trying to address a "problem" and am willing to discuss this with others so that's why I posted it on the forum. You're reaction has now become "he must be lying so there is no problem!"

Wonder why they made veteran modes of the Craglorn trials? Because people were able to run them in under 15 minutes or faster, because of stack & burn tactics and so on. They didn't even see mechanics on some stages.

That's why I mentioned the Village of the Lost public dungeon, that now feels like how the original Sancre Tor solo quest felt.

You know, you attack a boss and it CC's you, so you have to break free or it throws an AOE so you step out of the red or you see your health dropping so you use a healing ability or potion. Still super easy because of my stats/gear/experience and so on, of course, but at least a bit more engaging.

Just because someone replies to me and says that they don't believe does not mean that I share that view.

The Uninvited · February 2020

Elsonso wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Those quests are solo instances and really should level to the player better.

How?

The determinate factor is player skill, not raw stats. How do you adapt to player skill?

That's not as simple a question as it appears.

That would be true if I actually would have used skills.

Edit: What I mean by this, is that in my opinion raw stats are the determinate factor, rather than skill.

That, really, doesn't address what I was asking. I was asking how you could calibrate content around the skill level of the player, agnostic of their character's stats. That is a very difficult design question. It's not as simple as, "well, we make it harder." (Even then, that answer is reductive.)

Second thing is, you really need to step back from this idea that the only relevant skill in ESO is your ability to use active abilities.

I am not saying that the only relevant skill in ESO is using active abilities.

I am saying that all I did was light attack and moved the camera angle around to aim. So not just not using active abilities, also not dodging/kiting/blocking/break free and whatever else a skilled player might do or use.

Therefore, the only real difference with a new player, would be raw stats because of gear/food/CP. They could just scale solo instances depending on your raw stats if that seemed to be all that made the difference.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this has progressed to the point where you need to create a video. Start with your character, build, and gear. After that, take down the boss using only light attacks, while self-rooted.

I concur. I tire of these "I only used..." trust me on that examples. Just reminds me of when players claim to beat a world boss at level 4 with a white sword.

Still doesn't address the main dilemma though, how does Zos unilaterally decide on what is challenging for player A while not being too challenging for player B, while player C needs it even more challenging than player B but not as challenging as player A?

Fine, then both of you don't believe me, your choice.

It's funny though when people just make a U-turn from "you had CP allocated and gear and food and 5 years of experience!" to "if he really only used light attacks it must not be true".

I am trying to address a "problem" and am willing to discuss this with others so that's why I posted it on the forum. You're reaction has now become "he must be lying so there is no problem!"

Wonder why they made veteran modes of the Craglorn trials? Because people were able to run them in under 15 minutes or faster, because of stack & burn tactics and so on. They didn't even see mechanics on some stages.

That's why I mentioned the Village of the Lost public dungeon, that now feels like how the original Sancre Tor solo quest felt.

You know, you attack a boss and it CC's you, so you have to break free or it throws an AOE so you step out of the red or you see your health dropping so you use a healing ability or potion. Still super easy because of my stats/gear/experience and so on, of course, but at least a bit more engaging.

Just because someone replies to me and says that they don't believe does not mean that I share that view.

In that case, I misunderstood your remark about making a video for which I apologize.

Grandesdar · February 2020

The Uninvited wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

So you started a new character and allocated CP points and crafted yourself some nice gear and then you complain about how "easy" the game is?

You do realize that anyone starting fresh will not have access to either of those things, yes?

I know, hence my last comment about CP. But crafted gear could be made easily by guild members or friends early on in the game.

It can easily be made, but not everyone has time to craft every newcomer. And what are the probability a newcomer will join a guild before even hitting 20 levels, and ask for crafted gear? I see 200+ cp newbies running around what they collect from overland trash, many of them don't even know/care the sets exist.

Your topic is pretty invalid as of rn, CP + crafted gear + game knowledge is what makes it seem easier than it is.

Dagoth_Rac · February 2020

They buffed light attacks years ago so that getting DPS high enough to beat hard content required precise timing of light-attack weaving during boss fights. It does indeed add a level of extra difficulty beyond the mechanics of Trials/dungeons. And fits in well with ZOS' vision of, "Your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 99th approach to any fight should be to do more DPS."

But buffing light attacks like that made casual content much easier. "I can beat this casual questing boss using only light attacks" is not at all surprising. ZOS have made light attacks some of the highest DPS in the game. That fight is likely harder for a new player because they will use some cool looking active skills that run them out of resources and actually do less damage than light attacks.

The Uninvited · February 2020

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

They buffed light attacks years ago so that getting DPS high enough to beat hard content required precise timing of light-attack weaving during boss fights. It does indeed add a level of extra difficulty beyond the mechanics of Trials/dungeons. And fits in well with ZOS' vision of, "Your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 99th approach to any fight should be to do more DPS."

But buffing light attacks like that made casual content much easier. "I can beat this casual questing boss using only light attacks" is not at all surprising. ZOS have made light attacks some of the highest DPS in the game. That fight is likely harder for a new player because they will use some cool looking active skills that run them out of resources and actually do less damage than light attacks.

Granted, maybe they just did buff light attacks too much and the quest is at the level it should be, who knows?

But to me it felt like wearing the Amulet of Kings in the final quest, where you are able to one-shot the waves of Daedroths and Seducers.