ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ZENIMAX. Healer kicked for "NOT HELPING WITH DPS"

Nurable · February 2020

d0e1ow wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

The group will always need DPS because the goal is to kill the enemies. If the group isn't taking damage, then that means there is no need for 3rd party healing. I get that your friend wants to play a healer. They can, and should, but much of the game is balanced around DPS'ing while the need for heals are low. Again, the group can always use more DPS, but can't always use more healing.

I don't particularly like it and prefer how in games like WoW healing was a far more focused role, but it's how the game is currently balanced here. When I play my Templar in low level stuff I almost never drop a heal and stay on Destro staff the entire time.

Still, they shouldn't have been so rude to your friend. Screw those people.

This game was never intended to be another WoW. The roles were never intended to exist. If a player prefers WoW style play, then this game will never feel good to said player. We never wanted a WoW type game and after many years of development, they gave us what we wanted. It is when players come from other games and try to push their wish on this game that has caused all this trouble. Each person should learn to play the game they play and not whine to get the game maker to change the rules of the game for them. If this were a board game, we would not ask Monopoly rules to change to be more like Parcheesi. Kind of lame example, but you get the point. If you want to play Parcheesi, play Parcheesi, but don't ask the Monopoly players to use rules from Parcheesi because someone refuses to learn how to play a more complicated game of Monopoly.

Also, if the group isn't taking any damage, the group of players either learned to play the game OR the game has gotten too easy.

If the only people who played ESO were this nebulous group of OG fans who waited years for it to be developed I 100% promise you this game would be dead by now.

LOL.. it's not about that. It's about understanding the game you play and knowing why things are they way they are. It's about choosing the right game for you. If you want to play WoW, play WoW or whatever other game you want that makes you happy, but don't expect knowledgeable TES now ESO players to be unhappy because you want to muddle up ESO to be like WoW. Now, as it is, pretty much everyone is unhappy because ESO has made concessions and created "roles" in the dungeon finder and added lots of PvP. They even got rid of the Veteran levels, which was a major blow to TES players simply because people complained because they didn't understand TES. That cost time and content. They've nerfed and re-nerfed the various races and classes to suit everyone else. At some point, players need to stop asking for nerfs and start learning to play the game.

The game is an MMO, not a single player TES game. Cyrodiil was in the game at launch and was touted as a huge part of the experience, that means PVP was showcased as being a huge part of the game. You're acting like OP and myself saying that we think there should be balance with healers in mind means we're not "actually" ESO players. My money spends the same as yours, dude. lol

What does Vet levels have to do with "understanding TES"? What does "understanding TES" even mean? They re-balance the game because that's what every single online game does. It's part of the iterative nature of game design. Nothing stays the same forever.

Also, here you go: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/535

From before the game even came out, a blog post from the devs where they clearly list out the three roles: DPS, tank, healer, with the caveat that the game will provide you with some flexibility. So this idea that it's the fault of WoW players or something that there are "roles" in the game is clearly false.

well said. i don't know what false narrative or agenda the guy is trying to push. He's just on repeat saying the same thing.

INHUMANENATION · February 2020

The simple fact is the healer might be sacked because dps simply cant do their job. Don't take it personal. I dps, tank, heal pug all the time and just because people see others burn thru mechanics doesn't mean they can. When they learn they cannot but are built with 25k hp and a self heal as opposed to dps then the healer becomes a flex spot.

Unless a lot has changed recently one good dps does 3x's the amount of damage a average first time tester does. Those that never tested do far less than they want to tell themselves.

Nurable · February 2020

DMBCML wrote: »

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

I was asked to do DPS with my tank...
And about the attitude, I agree with @gatekeeper13. Report them or they will do it to others.

That is how the game was supposed to function. There was not to be a tank role. No one was supposed to have a specific role and we didn't in the beginning. Basically everyone did dps and healed what they could. There was no four person team. It was all pile on the monster and someone heal now and then. If you died, so what, get up and fight some more.

I see you keep saying this, but that isn't even remotely true. The game is based around the trinity and was at launch as well. You couldn't do Fungral Grotto at like level 12 or whatever it was without somebody to take damage, heal and do damage. Yes things have changed to a point as they got rid of Vet Ranks and what not.

The problem isn't that it's designed to be no healers/tanks it's the non DLC content doesn't need them cause they have been nerfed into the ground. Nobody is going into the new DLC dungeons with 4 dps and just using self heals. This OP though is more about just toxic AHats being AHats.

I've noticed that too... he keeps saying that and it's completely false.

He is not wrong. There was not to be a tank function. Every build has self heals ability. The healing Templar also can do DPS, mine does. Mostly heals, but some DPS. I was there at beta too and I remember.

You're patently wrong, as someone pointed out https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/535

PLAYER ROLES
In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

You are entirely wrong buddy. Completely

DMBCML · February 2020

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

The group will always need DPS because the goal is to kill the enemies. If the group isn't taking damage, then that means there is no need for 3rd party healing. I get that your friend wants to play a healer. They can, and should, but much of the game is balanced around DPS'ing while the need for heals are low. Again, the group can always use more DPS, but can't always use more healing.

I don't particularly like it and prefer how in games like WoW healing was a far more focused role, but it's how the game is currently balanced here. When I play my Templar in low level stuff I almost never drop a heal and stay on Destro staff the entire time.

Still, they shouldn't have been so rude to your friend. Screw those people.

This game was never intended to be another WoW. The roles were never intended to exist. If a player prefers WoW style play, then this game will never feel good to said player. We never wanted a WoW type game and after many years of development, they gave us what we wanted. It is when players come from other games and try to push their wish on this game that has caused all this trouble. Each person should learn to play the game they play and not whine to get the game maker to change the rules of the game for them. If this were a board game, we would not ask Monopoly rules to change to be more like Parcheesi. Kind of lame example, but you get the point. If you want to play Parcheesi, play Parcheesi, but don't ask the Monopoly players to use rules from Parcheesi because someone refuses to learn how to play a more complicated game of Monopoly.

Also, if the group isn't taking any damage, the group of players either learned to play the game OR the game has gotten too easy.

If the only people who played ESO were this nebulous group of OG fans who waited years for it to be developed I 100% promise you this game would be dead by now.

LOL.. it's not about that. It's about understanding the game you play and knowing why things are they way they are. It's about choosing the right game for you. If you want to play WoW, play WoW or whatever other game you want that makes you happy, but don't expect knowledgeable TES now ESO players to be unhappy because you want to muddle up ESO to be like WoW. Now, as it is, pretty much everyone is unhappy because ESO has made concessions and created "roles" in the dungeon finder and added lots of PvP. They even got rid of the Veteran levels, which was a major blow to TES players simply because people complained because they didn't understand TES. That cost time and content. They've nerfed and re-nerfed the various races and classes to suit everyone else. At some point, players need to stop asking for nerfs and start learning to play the game.

Dude, I think you're completely conflating two different games.

PvP was always a major part of this game. It was released at the very beginning was was considered the end game - and that's from someone that rarely plays PvP

There absolutely were roles at the beginning.

The game was never meant to be the next The Elder Scrolls chapter.

The switch from Vet ranks to CP was an excellent one. The grind per character was horrible.

The Elder Scrolls is the framework for the storyline and lore. The rest is just the mechanics of making an MMO.

You're inbuing complete falsehoods onto this game. And all things evolve to improve. Having played this game to death since beta, it has improved mostly, from where it started.

This game is nothing like WoW and nor is it moving in that direction. This thread is complete proof of that.

I've been here as long as you. PvP was not the first motivation in the game construction, the proof of that being that Cyro still doesn't get great reviews from the player base who enjoy PvP. It never functioned well while the rest of the game faired much better.

There were no tanks. Period. None. Just because you want to use your stats/points to push your character into a serviceable tank does not mean that it was intended. My husband did that with his first character both in beta and at launch. I chose not to. The tank build is just that. It is a user chosen set of stats and abilities that pushes that character into a serviceable WoW cookie cutter type tank. The makers of this game wanted to avoid cookie cutter characters which is why we have so many choices in build.

The game was meant to be attractive to TES players who were a solo group of players who wanted an MMO that was not WoW like. That is why all the characters had available self healing abilities. The players frequently excluded those who chose to be a healer from the content groups saying healers didn't need to be in a group to level and only included DPS players in the groups. They were doing that as late as Craglorn. Healers were of course, included in dungeons and other difficult content.

We will agree to disagree about vet levels. I have heard other long time players lamenting the loss of the vet levels. So neither of us are alone in our opinions of the facts there.

All things evolve, but not always improve. There are monumental improvements made in this game. The lag, glitched quests, and bugged dungeons are mostly a thing of the past. Most of the new content has been wonderful. This is good. The player base has definitely changed to be more reflective of the MMO community. With that comes demands that are different from (not better or worse) the original community. But in the end, it is the responsibility of each player to learn how to actually play the game before making demands of change.

Kahnak · February 2020

There may actually be a cogent premise beneath all of that misplaced blame and hyperbole, but it's hard to see passed it, to be honest.

It's not ZOS's responsibility to ensure that players aren't ever mean to one another. It happens in every game and it has very little to do with your opinion on the viability of the healer role in this game or the skill pedigree of the offender. It seems to me that this person must be a significant other or a family member and not simply just some friend that got their feelings hurt.

Second, you, like many others, automatically direct the blame to the 'toxic elites' that are just ruining the game for everyone by being so good at the game. The people that are actually good at this game don't become good in a bubble - they are surrounded by other players who are good at the game. It's pretty unlikely that you're going to run into 'toxic elites' that a) are going to be spending any time in a PUG if they can help it -OR- b) would be doing so little DPS that the lack of DPS from a healer would make a such a significant difference that it needed to be remarked upon. I'm not at the highest end of the spectrum when it comes to player skill, but even I can do DPS well above the group minimum so that it matters very little what the other DPS (or the healer for that matter) are doing.

If you take the obvious scapegoats out of the equation here, this is just a thread about how you don't like it that toxic people exist. I'm genuinely sorry that your friend got their feelings hurt. I'm not condoning the attitudes or actions of these people. But it seems to me that you just ran into a couple of jerks and that is really all that needs to be said. Report the offender and move on.

Nurable · February 2020

DMBCML wrote: »

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

I was asked to do DPS with my tank...
And about the attitude, I agree with @gatekeeper13. Report them or they will do it to others.

That is how the game was supposed to function. There was not to be a tank role. No one was supposed to have a specific role and we didn't in the beginning. Basically everyone did dps and healed what they could. There was no four person team. It was all pile on the monster and someone heal now and then. If you died, so what, get up and fight some more.

I see you keep saying this, but that isn't even remotely true. The game is based around the trinity and was at launch as well. You couldn't do Fungral Grotto at like level 12 or whatever it was without somebody to take damage, heal and do damage. Yes things have changed to a point as they got rid of Vet Ranks and what not.

The problem isn't that it's designed to be no healers/tanks it's the non DLC content doesn't need them cause they have been nerfed into the ground. Nobody is going into the new DLC dungeons with 4 dps and just using self heals. This OP though is more about just toxic AHats being AHats.

I've noticed that too... he keeps saying that and it's completely false.

He is not wrong. There was not to be a tank function. Every build has self heals ability. The healing Templar also can do DPS, mine does. Mostly heals, but some DPS. I was there at beta too and I remember.

Additionally, what you're talking about is where they're at now, not where they were. All classes have big heals now, but they didn't start that way.

I don't know what game you're thinking of, but it's absolutely, evidentally and undenyably not The Elder Scrolls Online

FierceSam · February 2020

Lamiai wrote: »

!!????...CAPLOCKSWITHBOLD FFS WTF??!!!!1 11122111

Serious times require serious typography dude.

OP, it’s the rubbish group mates who need to get their acts together not your friend.

Lisutaris · February 2020

It is no excuse for being so "toxic" vs a new player (newb) OR a healer without dmg output..... BUT...

.... I can understand ppl getting angry if the healer is just pressing one or two buttons (for example one hot and a flash heal if needed)and standing there, looking at the sky or cave ceiling, instead of being useful.

As a healer or tank, first priority is to do you job. Second priority is to support and lastly doing some dmg if first two parts are done.

As a temp heal there is no excuse doing less than ~5k-10k dps. Shards + ritual +elemtal blockade will do more than that.
Nothing of these skills are real dps, all are support and everyone will be happy.

Like mentioned before/above... It is still no excuse for being an ******* if it is not done.

Loves_guars · February 2020

You are so right to be mad. Because yes these clowns in your team were wrong and toxic but the game encourages those behaviora if at the end, its possible to do dungeons without healers or tanks. You want to do your role and it turns out no one appreciate it because running with 3 or 4 dps is faster or something. That's entirely ZOS fault.

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

illusiouk wrote: »

As a Healer, i'll throw in dps if things are under control but generally, If a group expects me to dps after healing, buffing, debuffing, wearing armour, that gives them a dps boost then the dps must be really bad.

Toxicity is real in group finder, report and ignore them. Hopefully you never have to group with them again. Bad players will always take their short comings out on others, just a way of life, ESO is no different.

In a weak group I may heal and do 40%+ of group DPS (I think my peak was over 60%, but that's very rare). In a strong one I may do 15%. Some of the difference is that in weak groups I don't bother to keep buffs up as rigorously, using time and resources for more actual damage instead, but a lot is just how effective the DPS are.

NocturnalSonata · February 2020

OP, i got kicked from a random normal (ICP) for doing 50% of the damage and healing. The other players just stood in red and the tank did zero taunts, so when they wiped i just solo'd a boss instead, and then got kicked after. This is the nature of PUGS. Move on. Its only mildly aggravating, and mostly, afterwards i have a good chuckle at how dimwitted the other players were. I immediately queued again and got an ultra fast complete on a diff dungeon. I guarantee the tauntless tank crew were probably still struggling on icp.

That said, i almost never do a PUG. Everything with a pinch of salt. Your health will be much better by running with a guild.

Anotherone773 · February 2020

Darkenarlol wrote: »

i'm kicking healers from my 4 man DLC achieve static if they

can't bring at least 20k ST dps in encounters that are

not heal intensive.

because if you are just standing there and tossing

unneded heals...you are a dead weight and not helping

your group

Its obvious you never played a healer. Healers do far more than toss heals. and 20k ST DPS from a healer? So you really just want another DPS that can heal you also, lol. Would you like an ice staff in inventory so they can tank to?

If they can heal,buff and do 20k dps... i have to ask, what exactly do they need YOU for? Nothing. That would make you deadweight.

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

BejaProphet wrote: »

The simple truth is that a role’s job is to do whatever makes the group thrive, period.

For a tank and DD this is a pretty constant defined objective.

For a healer it varies wildly from group to group, from dungeon to dungeon, and even from moment to moment.

A great healer has to be smart and crazy adaptive. I don’t envy them.

I enjoy healing in part for that reason.

FierceSam · February 2020

Loves_guars wrote: »

You are so right to be mad. Because yes these clowns in your team were wrong and toxic but the game encourages those behaviora if at the end, its possible to do dungeons without healers or tanks. You want to do your role and it turns out no one appreciate it because running with 3 or 4 dps is faster or something. That's entirely ZOS fault.

Got to disagree with you there Loves_guars.

It’s ENTIRELY the rubbish players’ fault <- (I know WTF typography trauma)

ZOS isn’t your mummy and it’s not their job or responsibility to police players for bad manners. It’s up to players to manage their own behaviour. If you can’t manage your own behaviour, you’ve got issues that ZOS can’t even begin to address.

FrancisCrawford · February 2020

DMBCML wrote: »

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

I was asked to do DPS with my tank...
And about the attitude, I agree with @gatekeeper13. Report them or they will do it to others.

That is how the game was supposed to function. There was not to be a tank role. No one was supposed to have a specific role and we didn't in the beginning. Basically everyone did dps and healed what they could. There was no four person team. It was all pile on the monster and someone heal now and then. If you died, so what, get up and fight some more.

I see you keep saying this, but that isn't even remotely true. The game is based around the trinity and was at launch as well. You couldn't do Fungral Grotto at like level 12 or whatever it was without somebody to take damage, heal and do damage. Yes things have changed to a point as they got rid of Vet Ranks and what not.

The problem isn't that it's designed to be no healers/tanks it's the non DLC content doesn't need them cause they have been nerfed into the ground. Nobody is going into the new DLC dungeons with 4 dps and just using self heals. This OP though is more about just toxic AHats being AHats.

I've noticed that too... he keeps saying that and it's completely false.

He is not wrong. There was not to be a tank function. Every build has self heals ability. The healing Templar also can do DPS, mine does. Mostly heals, but some DPS. I was there at beta too and I remember.

I think people are confusing the questions as to whether:

A particular group was supposed to have players in different roles on a particular run.
Particular classes were supposed to be locked into particular roles.
Particular individual characters were supposed to be locked itno particular roles.

#1 was always the case. (That said, I recall a guild run of Wayrest Sewers 1 very early in the life of the game, when the healer kept running out of magicka, and my DPS sorcerer switched to a backbar resto staff to get us through.)

ZoS has tries to avoid #2, but with very up-and-down focus and success.

ZoS made the same mistake every MMO developer I'm familiar with has, which is to start out with the answer to #3 being that characters should be locked into specs, but making it easier to respec over time as players complained.

MaxJrFTW · February 2020

ESO isn't WoW where healers literally just use a healing spell every 10 seconds and afk the rest of the time. In ESO healers actually have to dps between heals. Look up any guide and you'll see everyone slots at least a couple of dmg skills.

Find a different game if you don't like the way this one works.

Chaos2088 · February 2020

I would say that’s a playerbase problem. ZoS can’t help it if a person is being a twod.

Also report for homophobic language. Nothing insulting about being gay.

amapola76 · February 2020

Belyar wrote: »

Maybe he should just do what they said and try to have some dps while healing. Its not impossible to do it and it benefits the group. Sure they were rude and deserve a report, but they're not wrong. PureHealer is borderline useless until vet dlc dungeons and beyond.

No, it's certainly not impossible to do. Personally, I always try to be aware of my surroundings; I usually alternate between damage and healing, but it's situational... for example, if I'm with an extra-squishy group, or even one person in the group, I focus more on healing. I'm not saying I'm great at it, but my goal is always to have situational awareness and be flexible/adapt.

But the problem is, as a healer, you can never win, at least when using the group finder. Go in with a restoration staff? You're useless. Go in with a destruction staff? You're a "fake healer". Contribute to dps? You might be yelled at to stay in your lane as a healer. Focus on healing? You might be yelled at for not contributing enough/slowing things down.

Not every group is that way, but I'd say maybe every 4th or 5th group, there's someone with anger management issues who's going to yell at you no matter what you do.

Loves_guars · February 2020

FierceSam wrote: »

Loves_guars wrote: »

You are so right to be mad. Because yes these clowns in your team were wrong and toxic but the game encourages those behaviora if at the end, its possible to do dungeons without healers or tanks. You want to do your role and it turns out no one appreciate it because running with 3 or 4 dps is faster or something. That's entirely ZOS fault.

Got to disagree with you there Loves_guars.

It’s ENTIRELY the rubbish players’ fault <- (I know WTF typography trauma)

ZOS isn’t your mummy and it’s not their job or responsibility to police players for bad manners. It’s up to players to manage their own behaviour. If you can’t manage your own behaviour, you’ve got issues that ZOS can’t even begin to address.

I know what you mean and I agree. I'm not saying someone else is responsable for the toxic behavior of these individuals. What I mean is that the rules of a game will attract certain people and mentalities to the game and it will develop a certain community, the same way natural selection and a defined envoirement guide evolution of species. If the trees are tall, the giraffes end up with a long neck.

RusevCrush · February 2020

They may be TOXIC but they're definitely not ELITE. That sort of thing is not a concern of elite players.

Tell your friend to look forward to healing trials.

BejaProphet · February 2020

This post is not in response to OP but some of the statements since then.

I always take it with a grain of salt when I hear either tanks or healers say they got kicked from a group; and the reason being their group members died while I carried them.

They may be right. But I think more often the case is they weren’t doing their job. I’ve seen tanks pull 20 mobs, hold aggro on 2 of them and then tanked for 15 minutes after the group was dead. Then we revived and he did it again.

Similarly there are healers who think they are leet because they were still fighting long after the group was dead, when they didn’t keep them up.

My point being, sometimes team mates aren’t doing their job because we support aren’t actually supporting.

But the version we get on forums, “I got kicked for being good!”

ZOS_Volpe · February 2020

Greetings,

Because this thread has begun to derail with non-constructive and rude comments, we decided to go ahead and close it down. We take reports of harassment, hate speech, and inappropriate behavior very seriously and ask that you report any incident by following these steps or by submitting a support ticket at https://help.elderscrollsonline.com