ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ZENIMAX. Healer kicked for "NOT HELPING WITH DPS"

DMBCML · February 2020

Sorc wrote: »

I was asked to do DPS with my tank...
And about the attitude, I agree with @gatekeeper13. Report them or they will do it to others.

That is how the game was supposed to function. There was not to be a tank role. No one was supposed to have a specific role and we didn't in the beginning. Basically everyone did dps and healed what they could. There was no four person team. It was all pile on the monster and someone heal now and then. If you died, so what, get up and fight some more.

vamp_emily · February 2020

Find a friendly guild that does dungeons/trials and you and your friend will feel so much better.

zaria · February 2020

Raiden_Gekkou wrote: »

Lmao, I run my healers in full vet trial setups and have never come across any pug telling me to help with dps. You must've gotten matched up with some absolute smoothbrains for them to get mad at a healer for healing, buffing and debuffing like they're supposed to. Although, if the dps is trash I will weave crushing shock to try and help along the 4-digit dps so there is that I guess. They probably watch vSS HM videos of 1 sorc/templar healer running a HealPS build which is basically just a dps who does some off-heals and think that's how you burn through dungeons, when running the same setup I use for trial hardmodes in pug dungeons has never hurt anyone in the slightest. The funny part is that the DDs who are complaining are usually the ones who die if they don't have a constant stream of heals.

This, now I tend to get asked to heal more as I tend focus too much on damage, as I see it nobody was close to dying and none asked for an no death run. On trash pulls or weaker bosses I tend to lay down combat prayer then an healing spring, trow an shard, bar swap and ele drain if boss, wall of lighing, If group takes lots of damage I will swap back to resto, if not I do damage, until time to refresh combat prayer and healing spring.

Has multiple setups depending on how focused I'm on damage or healing, tend to go more healing on last boss.

Nurable · February 2020

vamp_emily wrote: »

Find a friendly guild that does dungeons/trials and you and your friend will feel so much better.

I've been searching and searching and searching for one. I found decent ones but most of them don't respond to dungeon requests. It's always the same few, including me, that are up for it.

Guild membership is all about guild traders.

I've created a guild that won't have a trader. So people that want to join will only join because it's for doing group content.

Geekgirl · February 2020

Man. It really stinks that your friend had such a crap experience.

Just remember, that the game is a static, non-living thing.

The people being jerkfaces? That's people for you. And I can almost guarantee you that even if your friend was the best flippin' player/healer ever, some jerkface would still find SOMETHING to yell at them about.

Please understand, and try to help your friend understand, that the folk who absolutely flip out about garbage like this are people who have no concept of gaming vs. reality and forget, entirely, that there are people on the other side of the keyboard.

I have a nephew like this... he's a young adult now, but listening to his brain explode when he loses something when he wanted to win...? Horrific brain dumps like your friend received.

It's not the game, though. It's the players.

This is why I don't PVP. Yes, folk flip their switches in dungeons sometimes, but it's far less prevalent than in PVP.

It's like these people have real money on the matches or something... as if they mean something, anything in real life. It's nuts. (My nephew included. I won't game with him anymore, and he's never dared yell at me. I just hate how... emotional (?) folk like him get around things like this.)

Taemiru · February 2020

Toxic people will be toxic, just a thing about multiplayer games, its not ZoS fault.

However while no one should expect damage from a healer in pug, someone going for veteran content as healer should not be a bot spamming springs but also do a basic job of buffing, debuffing and throwing synergies.

Edziu · February 2020

vamp_emily wrote: »

Find a friendly guild that does dungeons/trials and you and your friend will feel so much better.

damn, no offence
but literally in every thread I see where topic is about "randoms" from group finder..literally many arounr propose nothing else than run dungs with friends guild mates
and here we go...if we all had friends, guildmates willing to run with us these specific dungs everytime we want...then what would be reason of group finder? because definitelly not to get missing people to team because we will have everytime someone willing to run whatever we want yes?

because we have enough different active friends and guildmates so we have always full team for dung whatever we want in any time in just moment without being forced to look for missing mate in group out of random people

robpr · February 2020

It happens. People can be a-holes everywhere, especially in games where they can hide behind 'anonymity'.
I got kicked once from vet Crypt of Hearts 1 as DD because I was wielding 2hander on stamDK.
Just take a breather, respond "ok, glhf" and carry on. 90% of people using group finder see a 'healbot' as godsend because most of the time you play either with potatoes or people that would solo the thing but they just want the daily reward.

Faulgor · February 2020

Maybe dungeons don't require a healer, but they certainly don't require 3 DDs, either.
If 2 DDs can't carry their weight, tell them to git gud.

That said, healers will only increase in importance once DD's self healing gets nerfed, i.e. decoupled from offensive stats.

Septimus_Magna · February 2020

Ive heard of players getting mad because the healers were dealing too much damage instead of focusing on healing. Probably just bad dps who want to blame a new player because they fail to perform themselves.

Nurable · February 2020

@ the OP.

If you're on PC EU, dorp me a message. I am happy to play this game with people that want to play it as a team. I have all roles so if you both fancy healing, tanking or dps-ing, I'll work around you.

As I mentioned earlier, I've created a guild (it's actually 6 years old) with no trader. So anyone that joins is in it for the group content.

DMBCML · February 2020

d0e1ow wrote: »

The group will always need DPS because the goal is to kill the enemies. If the group isn't taking damage, then that means there is no need for 3rd party healing. I get that your friend wants to play a healer. They can, and should, but much of the game is balanced around DPS'ing while the need for heals are low. Again, the group can always use more DPS, but can't always use more healing.

I don't particularly like it and prefer how in games like WoW healing was a far more focused role, but it's how the game is currently balanced here. When I play my Templar in low level stuff I almost never drop a heal and stay on Destro staff the entire time.

Still, they shouldn't have been so rude to your friend. Screw those people.

This game was never intended to be another WoW. The roles were never intended to exist. If a player prefers WoW style play, then this game will never feel good to said player. We never wanted a WoW type game and after many years of development, they gave us what we wanted. It is when players come from other games and try to push their wish on this game that has caused all this trouble. Each person should learn to play the game they play and not whine to get the game maker to change the rules of the game for them. If this were a board game, we would not ask Monopoly rules to change to be more like Parcheesi. Kind of lame example, but you get the point. If you want to play Parcheesi, play Parcheesi, but don't ask the Monopoly players to use rules from Parcheesi because someone refuses to learn how to play a more complicated game of Monopoly.

Also, if the group isn't taking any damage, the group of players either learned to play the game OR the game has gotten too easy.

DMuehlhausen · February 2020

Nyladreas wrote: »

Lamiai wrote: »

!!????...CAPLOCKSWITHBOLD FFS WTF??!!!!1 11122111

Cause I'm mad beyond even my own imagination. The hell is wrong with these people????

You answered you're own question. You're friend used the Dungeon finder, I'm assuming, and got stuck with a group a$$hats. It happens. If you don't want to run into any toxic people be in a small guild and only do stuff with them. Otherwise you're going to get this crap sometimes.

I do vet dungeons daily and run as a Nord Templar and have never been talked to like that. Now I do help with DPS by constantly heavy attacking, and using my back bar with Fire Blockade and Spears (can't remember the actual skill name you throw the spear up and it hits a targetted area) so I am doing something. I'm normally hitting around 4-5k dps.

I will say though a lot of the non dlc dungeons he could go in DD and just have Breath on a bar and just spam that and do dps and get through the dungeon even faster. the non dlc conent is basically all faceroll content. I get around that though by at the start of the dungeon just telling the tank to pull to each boss. DD use enough AoE in the game you kill off the adds that follow while killing the bosses.

Coppes · February 2020

That’s the problem with ESO, since everyone can perform two (sometimes three) roles at once then pure healers/tanks get devalued.

Nanfoodle · February 2020

One of the big reasons I picked ESO is it is a trinity MMO. I getting worried with the fact that healers are being needed less and less. Even tanks are being counted out of vet dungeon runs now, with 4 DPS doing better then having heals and tanks. Zen needs to start to balance things and make these roles relevant again. This is not a small thing that going on with the community. FIX THIS PLS!!!!!!

illusiouk · February 2020

As a Healer, i'll throw in dps if things are under control but generally, If a group expects me to dps after healing, buffing, debuffing, wearing armour, that gives them a dps boost then the dps must be really bad.

Toxicity is real in group finder, report and ignore them. Hopefully you never have to group with them again. Bad players will always take their short comings out on others, just a way of life, ESO is no different.

DMBCML · February 2020

MishMash wrote: »

I know the OP was for PvE, but we've been seeing issues in PvP too, with the lack of healers lately. I think healers have always gotten a raw deal because they always get focused down and killed. I've been trying my best to be more aware of our PvP healers and help them in battle.

Can't believe someone would get so pissy about someone actually healing-- having a decent healer allows DPS to focus their rotation on DPS, so what is the problem? (facepalm)

This is why I would never play a healer in PvP if I were to ever do it again. This situation is the same across games. They let the casters die instead of doing their job of protecting them. This is actually why I hate PvP and refuse to play. I used to play and love it, until I got fed up with repair bills (in some games broken gear) and no rewards.

Veinblood1965 · February 2020

That does suck sorry your friend had to deal with that.

It's the overpowered DPS power creep that's the cause I suspect it's the reason for all of ZOS's changes this last year. I mean why need a healer at all just blast the crap out of things, in some dungeons you do need a tank but not all of them. And as one person said mean people will always find a reason to be mean.

Just get your friend in a good guild and to hell with PUGS.

DMBCML · February 2020

d0e1ow wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

Chickenstein wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

That still only solves our personal issue here though, and I infact do have a screenshot. I'm pretty sure more will come, seeing as healing has indeed become nearly useless.

To be fair, buffing roles have never been a strong part of ESO at any time. I guess it's a side effect of classes not clearly tied to roles.

If they die, they blame it on the tank/healer, if they don't die, they'll blame you for not going as quick as they want.
It's a patience issue imo

This^

The last time I pugged as a healer? I was applying Debuffs+Buffs+DPS+Heals and they still weren't happy because I wasn't DPSing like a DPS. Yet if I didn't apply heals or buffs, they also were unhappy. There's no pleasing someone with an ego to high-heaven. Any moment that I encounter even a SLIGHT modicum of that behavior, I leave. I don't care if I'm guaranteed a no-death vet complete. I log on to play. Not to kowtow to toxic personalities and I'm sure most can agree with that.

A big problem lies with the design of the game itself though. If ZOS doesn't develop content that MAKES people needing healing, then people are going to put down people who go in with the restoration staff out. Compare it to WoW where a good priest or druid is treasured and praised for their skill at keeping the party alive. That's because the game is made so that a good healer can shine, and where healers are NECESSARY.

IMO ZOS is making a huge mistake by de-valuing healers and are breeding animosity in the community. They are going to drive right off the GW2 cliff if they aren't careful. Just a game of zergy DPS, where everyone's survival comes down to dodging one shot mechanics. If I make a healer, I'm doing it because I want to heal, not because I actually want to be playing my Stamblade.

In the beginning, when the game was new, everyone knew they were to both DPS/heal and DPS/tank because the only real role was dps. People have forgotten that, and new players never even knew it. Drop the healer and tank roles and everything goes back to the way it was supposed to be. Just have four persons in the group. Everyone has a healing skill and everyone has dps skills and everyone has a taunt skill. People just need to learn how to play their characters the way they were to be played.

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2020

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

You should have taken a screenshot and reported them for harassment. Such trash should not be part of the ESO community.

Healer's role is to heal and apply buffs, not contribute to DPS. If the DDs dps sucked, blaming the healer is not an excuse.

I've played games where healers only healed and focused on increasing their healing out. Tanks focused on health and defensive capabilities only. Both healer and tank did not focus on group buffing. They focused on being able to do their role well. The buffs from groups came from others in the group; in these other games you had healers, tank, group buffers and damage dealers.

The issue I see with ESO is that a player can be both a tank and healer if built correctly. ESO flexibility makes it a great for theory crafters that enjoy creating various builds. However, for the average player that wants to come into a mmo game and play a specific role it isn't so friendly as most roles play double duty of being a healer/buffer, tank/buffer, tank/healer, dps/buffer, etc...

Because of this, newer players suffer when they try to play their character only as a healer or a tank.

Like any game you can't get everything. The developer has to pick how they want to design their game and ZoS went with a design that gives players freedom in how we build our character. I like that. The issue isn't the design but the community and what the community expects from said roles.

I'm a firm believer that a tank and healer has to do their primary job first and foremost. After that if they can add buffing/debuffing and damage to the group they should but not at the cost of not being able to do their main role.

For instance if a tank has to be pick a debuff or self defensive buff, the tank should pick the self defense buff if that tank is having a hard time reaching the defensive stats needed to play as a tank.

As someone that plays a healer I find that most groups I run with tend to need an extra heal over a buff, so forgo the buff as many melee damage dealer and tanks don't block or dodge roll. Having that extra heal or shield has helped more groups pass a run vs. me doing debuff.

To the OP; you just ran into some jerk players. It happens. I have seen this happen many times in many different MMOs.

Malkiv · February 2020

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

Oh, my bad. I misread it... Just read it again and I took it the wrong way. I was a wee be riled up by other posts complaining about healers doing that role so thought you were on that side.

However, as a dd that does do decent damage, I do prefer a healer. It gives me the freedom to damage. I don't run a shield on my magsorc because I rely on the healer to keep me healed and that free's up a slot for a damage skill. As a healer, that's what I want from my dd's. I want them to do damage. It's a team game and when each role can focus on what they need to do, it's a lot more fun. Well, that's in my opinion anyway.

Completely understandable, considering the sensitive nature of the topic.

I do recognize and appreciate your stance on role separation and disambiguation, and it's the very reason that I rarely queue in GF; Not because I think I am superior to those people, but because it's how I enjoy playing to compliment my skill set.

To add to that sentiment, I feel utterly useless if I have to - due to time restraints or otherwise - queue for a random normal dungeon as a tank. I am simply not needed at my capacity, and I feel inadequate to the group's progression. I will equip a two-hand weapon along with damage skills, and proceed to be a glorified, ranged taunt/buff stick in those situations.

At the end of the day, ignoring all of my accomplishments and achievements, it distills to this realization: This is a multiplayer environment, and I should not expect all individuals to accommodate my every whim. And, while there may be better methods, I should not expect the same level of performance nor aptitude as I demonstrate. I can only offer my opinion.

d0e1ow · February 2020

DMBCML wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

The group will always need DPS because the goal is to kill the enemies. If the group isn't taking damage, then that means there is no need for 3rd party healing. I get that your friend wants to play a healer. They can, and should, but much of the game is balanced around DPS'ing while the need for heals are low. Again, the group can always use more DPS, but can't always use more healing.

I don't particularly like it and prefer how in games like WoW healing was a far more focused role, but it's how the game is currently balanced here. When I play my Templar in low level stuff I almost never drop a heal and stay on Destro staff the entire time.

Still, they shouldn't have been so rude to your friend. Screw those people.

This game was never intended to be another WoW. The roles were never intended to exist. If a player prefers WoW style play, then this game will never feel good to said player. We never wanted a WoW type game and after many years of development, they gave us what we wanted. It is when players come from other games and try to push their wish on this game that has caused all this trouble. Each person should learn to play the game they play and not whine to get the game maker to change the rules of the game for them. If this were a board game, we would not ask Monopoly rules to change to be more like Parcheesi. Kind of lame example, but you get the point. If you want to play Parcheesi, play Parcheesi, but don't ask the Monopoly players to use rules from Parcheesi because someone refuses to learn how to play a more complicated game of Monopoly.

Also, if the group isn't taking any damage, the group of players either learned to play the game OR the game has gotten too easy.

If the only people who played ESO were this nebulous group of OG fans who waited years for it to be developed I 100% promise you this game would be dead by now.

furiouslog · February 2020

Nyladreas wrote: »

Lamiai wrote: »

!!????...CAPLOCKSWITHBOLD FFS WTF??!!!!1 11122111

Cause I'm mad beyond even my own imagination. The hell is wrong with these people????

I was tanking vBC1 once and two DPS were on that were not quite ready for prime time, and the healer yelled at me that my dps was not enough and that I was just "sitting there and blocking". I was doing about 3-4K/15-20%. He voted to kick me twice, and on the final boss fight he refused to heal anyone because if I wasn't going to do my job then he wouldn't do his, and he just sat there and held block. It was already painful enough without that behavior.

Another time a guy tried to kick my tank because I kept dying to Scourge Harvester in vWS2, because no one would activate the altars so I was getting one shotted, and the guy said I was a fake and that I was dying way too much, despite having 38K health at CP600.

Another time, a tank got angry that we were not moving fast enough through vFG2, so he went to Clineras and deliberately chained the spiders and made sure they died so that we had to sit there and fight through her buffs, and then he said he did it on purpose to teach us a lesson and that we all sucked.

On several occasions, PUG DPS have bitterly complained to me in chat when I was on my healer because they died to one shot mechanics.

This stuff just happens in PUGs, and there are three reasons:

1. The group is not aligned on how to handle mechanics - sometimes there is more than one strat/style and not everyone agrees on how to handle things. communicating those details through that in chat is inefficient and misunderstandings happen a lot.
2. The objectives of the group in being in the dungeon are not aligned. For example: I've joined 3 man groups as a single DPS PUG and they wanted to do a 4 DPS speed run, but I needed the quest, and then conflict ensues.
3. The percentage of ignorant, anti-social toxic rageoholics is higher there in the PUG pool than in guilds. Anyone who behaves like a child on a regular basis won't stay in a guild for very long, so they have to use the DF to group with anyone. It's natural selection.

Sounds like you might have had all three issues on that run.

Nyladreas, there are plenty of social guilds full of cool and friendly people who run dungeons every day who group and talk in discord - if I were you I'd join a large, active one, and never look back.

Nurable · February 2020

DMBCML wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

Chickenstein wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

That still only solves our personal issue here though, and I infact do have a screenshot. I'm pretty sure more will come, seeing as healing has indeed become nearly useless.

To be fair, buffing roles have never been a strong part of ESO at any time. I guess it's a side effect of classes not clearly tied to roles.

If they die, they blame it on the tank/healer, if they don't die, they'll blame you for not going as quick as they want.
It's a patience issue imo

This^

The last time I pugged as a healer? I was applying Debuffs+Buffs+DPS+Heals and they still weren't happy because I wasn't DPSing like a DPS. Yet if I didn't apply heals or buffs, they also were unhappy. There's no pleasing someone with an ego to high-heaven. Any moment that I encounter even a SLIGHT modicum of that behavior, I leave. I don't care if I'm guaranteed a no-death vet complete. I log on to play. Not to kowtow to toxic personalities and I'm sure most can agree with that.

A big problem lies with the design of the game itself though. If ZOS doesn't develop content that MAKES people needing healing, then people are going to put down people who go in with the restoration staff out. Compare it to WoW where a good priest or druid is treasured and praised for their skill at keeping the party alive. That's because the game is made so that a good healer can shine, and where healers are NECESSARY.

IMO ZOS is making a huge mistake by de-valuing healers and are breeding animosity in the community. They are going to drive right off the GW2 cliff if they aren't careful. Just a game of zergy DPS, where everyone's survival comes down to dodging one shot mechanics. If I make a healer, I'm doing it because I want to heal, not because I actually want to be playing my Stamblade.

In the beginning, when the game was new, everyone knew they were to both DPS/heal and DPS/tank because the only real role was dps. People have forgotten that, and new players never even knew it. Drop the healer and tank roles and everything goes back to the way it was supposed to be. Just have four persons in the group. Everyone has a healing skill and everyone has dps skills and everyone has a taunt skill. People just need to learn how to play their characters the way they were to be played.

That's not true. The nightblade and templars have always, from the very beginning, been the better healing role. And origininally, you could only be a tank on DK or nb. Sorc was purley a magicka dd.

The DK had no self heals.
The sorc's heals weren't very powerful
The templar has a full class dedicated to heals

The orignal dungeon content was hard and you needed a healer and tank at the very beginning.

I've played this game in a very unhealthy way since beta. I remember it all.

DMuehlhausen · February 2020

DMBCML wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

I was asked to do DPS with my tank...
And about the attitude, I agree with @gatekeeper13. Report them or they will do it to others.

That is how the game was supposed to function. There was not to be a tank role. No one was supposed to have a specific role and we didn't in the beginning. Basically everyone did dps and healed what they could. There was no four person team. It was all pile on the monster and someone heal now and then. If you died, so what, get up and fight some more.

I see you keep saying this, but that isn't even remotely true. The game is based around the trinity and was at launch as well. You couldn't do Fungral Grotto at like level 12 or whatever it was without somebody to take damage, heal and do damage. Yes things have changed to a point as they got rid of Vet Ranks and what not.

The problem isn't that it's designed to be no healers/tanks it's the non DLC content doesn't need them cause they have been nerfed into the ground. Nobody is going into the new DLC dungeons with 4 dps and just using self heals. This OP though is more about just toxic AHats being AHats.

Libonotus · February 2020

Nyladreas wrote: »

WHAT THE *** ZENIMAX. YOU'VE MADE HEALERS SO OBSOLETE THAT NOW TOXIC ELITES DEMAND HEALERS TO SPAM JABS AND HAVE OTHER FORM OF CONTRIBUTION TO THE GROUP DPS.

I have just witnessed a close friend of mine get called out, insulted, disrespected and kicked from a dungeon, on their Templar, for (quote) "BEING AN INCONSIDERATE D-BAG, WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME BY BEING USELESS SPAMMING HEALS INSTEAD OF JABS. GO UNINSTALL OR GO PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME IF YOU WANT TO BE A LITTTLE GAY HEALSPAMMING Princess"

First off, my friend is new to the game, and secondly, my friend wants to be a healer and HEAL. Why should anybody force anyone to do a role they had not chosen to perform!? They haven't picked a DPS role for a reason! And third: What even was that cursing about ???

Look what you've done, Zenimax!!!

FOR ***'S SAKE!!! YOU'VE RUINED PVE HEALING TO THE POINT NEWBIES HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS *** ATTITUDE. YOU'VE RUINED HEALING TO THE POINTS ITS LITERALLY OBSOLETE. FIX IT!!!!!!!

I'M SO DONE.... /rant over

Honestly if this was end game content, where you need the extra DPS from healer, I’d understand, however I’d politely ask them to contribute to DPS and heal when necessary.

However, cause you say they’re new, it was obviously old content anyone can do, so this level of toxicity is gross and unnecessary, not just here, but in general.

GoodFella146 · February 2020

The problem of course is that they are fundamentally right in their assessment that being a healer is useless is almost all content, and certainly in the Blessed Crucible.

When I pug something and see a person healing I think to myself "lol" but as the content is so easy anyway, I'm not going to be mean to them for trying to do what they think is best as there's no chance we're going to fail anyway, so clearly they are just being rude.

SidraWillowsky · February 2020

Lamiai wrote: »

I dunno mate, if a game is making you this mad then maybe take a time out or something, not worth the mental anguish.

OP has a right to be mad though... we're overrun with fake tanks yet a healer who queues as a healer is getting punished for that? ***?!?!

Iarao · February 2020

@nylandreas yes, healers need to help w/the dps, not overheal. you cannot heal a boss to death. when no one needs healing, you dps.

Nurable · February 2020

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

DMBCML wrote: »

Sorc wrote: »

I was asked to do DPS with my tank...
And about the attitude, I agree with @gatekeeper13. Report them or they will do it to others.

That is how the game was supposed to function. There was not to be a tank role. No one was supposed to have a specific role and we didn't in the beginning. Basically everyone did dps and healed what they could. There was no four person team. It was all pile on the monster and someone heal now and then. If you died, so what, get up and fight some more.

I see you keep saying this, but that isn't even remotely true. The game is based around the trinity and was at launch as well. You couldn't do Fungral Grotto at like level 12 or whatever it was without somebody to take damage, heal and do damage. Yes things have changed to a point as they got rid of Vet Ranks and what not.

The problem isn't that it's designed to be no healers/tanks it's the non DLC content doesn't need them cause they have been nerfed into the ground. Nobody is going into the new DLC dungeons with 4 dps and just using self heals. This OP though is more about just toxic AHats being AHats.

I've noticed that too... he keeps saying that and it's completely false.