No wonder some dev changes are extreme. You guys are the same.
There is a difference of ~5k to the top. Thats like 5.5% difference. Why not just slightly raise some values and be done with it ? Maybe raise Piercing cold to 11% and Advanced species to 2.5%. Or raise the damage of every skill by like 3 points. Its not really difficult to adjust this slightly for 5.5% more dps.
No wonder some dev changes are extreme. You guys are the same.
There is a difference of ~5k to the top. Thats like 5.5% difference. Why not just slightly raise some values and be done with it ? Maybe raise Piercing cold to 11% and Advanced species to 2.5%. Or raise the damage of every skill by like 3 points. Its not really difficult to adjust this slightly for 5.5% more dps.
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.
llBlack_Heartll wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Be a bit like Zos firmly sticking to Winter's Revenge being Magden's only frost option and deciding their identity isn't frost. It doesn't make sense. Magden needs more frost identity because it fits them. Bleed doesn't fit Warden without a complete visual and contextual overhaul. Bleeds can absolutely exist in nature, but bugs doing bleed damage didn't make sense when they did it, and should be changed to poison.
The worst thing you can do when you make a bad design choice is double down on it.
Poison fits Stam Warden, but it’s already covered by other classes.
I’m definitely keen on Frost Damage for Mag.
Like every other class has its Specific Element.
DK - Fire & Poison
Sorc - Lightning & Physical
Templar - Magic & Physical
NB - Magic & Disease/Physical
Necro - Hybrid of all Elements
Warden - Well Should be Frost for Mag, as it just fits, no other class fills that gap other than Necro.
I don’t see an issue with Stam becoming the bleed class? No other class really covers it?
The only other option would be to make the DK the Bleed Class and Warden the Poison Class for Stam.
Bleed kind of fits the DK? I don’t know though.
llBlack_Heartll wrote: »
No one takes Mag Warden and even worse Stam Warden’s into trials, because they offer nothing and deal less damage.
No wonder some dev changes are extreme. You guys are the same.
There is a difference of ~5k to the top. Thats like 5.5% difference. Why not just slightly raise some values and be done with it ? Maybe raise Piercing cold to 11% and Advanced species to 2.5%. Or raise the damage of every skill by like 3 points. Its not really difficult to adjust this slightly for 5.5% more dps.
kylewwefan wrote: »I don’t get it? Everyone is a couple thousand dps less than Necro. We’re generally cool with that.
Take Necro out of the equation and all Classes are within 4K dps of each other.
How is this terrible? They’re close. Not everyone has or wants to play Necro or even play at a level where that kind of organization is remotely meaningful.
Is warden viable? Heck yeah. Even without using the bear ultimate? Absolutely viable.
Some people will play what they want to play, while others will only play what is the absolute best on paper. Even if this doesn’t exactly correlate well in the game.
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.
Meanwhile warden is right up on the top of over performance in PvP with Templar. Ranged builds and dots classes have no chance against them atm. Frags? Absorbed, la? Absorbed, curse? Auto purged, mages wrath? Auto purged. A 5 k DPS difference on dummies is not bad at all. And is totally ok imo.
The dummy is a single target that doesn't move and that DOESN'T TAKE IN ACCOUNT CLEAVE DAMAGE. Some classes are much better at cleave.
What we need is to look at a total parse of a full dungeon. Aoe damage matters.
Dummy parses imo are complete crap and way too many people take them as some law.
kylewwefan wrote: »Anyways, I think it’s unfair to say the warden DPS is terrible. Also you see Sorc as the 2nd highest DPS, but barely picked over warden for hard mode dlc trials. In fact every stam in general is significantly lower picked than Necro.
Best I can gather from information found on this thread is that even in high end hard mode trials, people still play what they want to some degree. And surprisingly it’s not the one class with the highest dps parse.
Is it even fair to add in AS and CR on the list? Stam is virtually un represented here. Perhaps that’s a whole other issue.
And stam Sorc being the number 2 highest DPS behind Necro. Barely represented in hard mode dlc trials.
Also it wouldn’t be that surprising if all these parses were coming from a relatively small number of the same people over and over and over again. And that’s what we want to call the endgame community. Something around 1000 players give or take.
thadjarvis wrote: »If Minor Vulnerability is up as it has always been provided by a support, then Warden DDs quickly fall to the bottom of the list in terms of group attributable damage even if they both parsed over 90k. That's why out of all the ideas I've seen @Skjaldbjorn 's ideas of a Morag Tong or Minor Heroism buff make the most sense. I guess @ESO_Nightingale flat damage thing works but the former options seem to be a more interesting way to do it. (Usually Night you bash simple flat damage buffs and come up with something unqiue; I assume it's a placeholder for now)
I believe that he has indeed included one of these ideas with his suggestion for the debuff the bear can provide for stamdens to the whole group (4% bonus dmg for the group). That may bring wardens in line.
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »kylewwefan wrote: »
Again, people want to point at JUST flat numbers of parses, but that's only a small part of the story. Looking at parses in a vacuum with zero context is probably how we got here to start with.
Yea some joker posted the parse data a few pages ago.
thadjarvis wrote: »I am trying to understand why Warden isn't utilized more. The old theory was it's an expansion class which Necro data does not support. It may be partly a bad wrap or undervalued, but there's also some objective reasons at play. It's easiest to look at the higher levels to understand what those are, but it certainly seems to effect all levels.
I believe that he has indeed included one of these ideas with his suggestion for the debuff the bear can provide for stamdens to the whole group (4% bonus dmg for the group). That may bring wardens in line.
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »thadjarvis wrote: »
To be candid, I don't think there's a whole lot to understand. Difficult rotation by comparison to most Stam DPS, delayed spammable was off-putting for people till Necro, which is essentially just a significantly stronger version of Warden, mediocre DPS at best, wonky mechanics that don't really fit end-game raiding and zero group utility.
I've been a Warden main since they released and even I am moving further and further away purely out of frustration at the lack of direction and improvement.
Wait a tick, do you not like Sub Assault rotation style or remarking that many others do not? If the former, I'm a little lost.
thadjarvis wrote: »
Wait a tick, do you not like Sub Assault rotation style or remarking that many others do not? If the former, I'm a little lost.
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »thadjarvis wrote: »
Wait a tick, do you not like Sub Assault rotation style or remarking that many others do not? If the former, I'm a little lost.
Oh no, I love Shalks. But lots of folks hated it, particularly before Necro.
Yes. Please buff my Stamina Warden.
I want him to hit even harder in PvP.
thadjarvis wrote: »
thadjarvis wrote: »
I believe that he has indeed included one of these ideas with his suggestion for the debuff the bear can provide for stamdens to the whole group (4% bonus dmg for the group). That may bring wardens in line.
It certainly would, but I do not advocate that method. What MagDK has is the best implementation I've seen ZoS do to revive a dead class. Unfortunately, probably not possible with magden because MagDK keys off of DK tank being ultra popular and DK healer non-existent.
4% group buff is 4*7 = 28% damage buff. I haven't done the math but I'd be curious if anyone has worked out the group DPS benefit of the 4 original class minor buffs. And heck that could maybe beat warhorn...tanks with bears
Although it may be difficult to sidestep giving stuff to warden supports crowding out warden DDs further, I don't like putting all power into the bear. For AOE it often better to unslot it (on magden) and the option to actually have an ultimate is kinda nice. Other classes situationaly switch around ultimates; I wouldn't want to make that harder.
My primary thoughts for magden would be:
- Consider converting mag morphs into frost damage to synergize with new passive and give the many RP'ers what the want (someone mentioned polar bear; they're almost dead here, let's take them to Tamriel). Think about it: there may actually be more frost mage RP wannabe's out there then trial score runners or magden PvP 1vXers
- Simply remove bloodthristy application restrictions across every skill in the game; ie everything but damage from sets. This would include the warden bear.
- Consider a small group damage buff that warden supports can't use effectively
thadjarvis wrote: »@Skjaldbjorn
The Morag Tong idea makes the most sense for stamden, but how could it be implemented. If it's 5 seconds on Sub Assult, that'd be less draining for a warden tank to keep up than it is for a DK tank to keep up stonefist on live. Warden tanks would have IA, MT, and (stacking) Ebon all built in? A MK Warden healer could actually benefit from using it.
Making it more expensive would help, but it should get more damage in that case. Then there's a PvP issue potentially. So, basically how can it get thrown in there. Maybe from the bear?