PSA #2: Warden DPS Is STILL terrible.

Skjaldbjorn

Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.

Brandathorbel

put cliff race back the way it was and put the passive back to 3 percent and increase bear damage back to before, simple.

LeHarrt91

xbobx15 wrote: »

put cliff race back the way it was and put the passive back to 3 percent and increase bear damage back to before, simple.

I agree with revert the nerfs to Cliff Racer and Advanced Species passive but not the Bear. The reason it was originally nerfed and the AS passive buffed was because the bear was required for any good dps and still is in pve atleast.

Runefang

Though I agree with you I am a fan of small changes like this one rather than major overhauls. A few more like this and we’re close to the pack. I think it’ll add 2k dps on the 21m once the optimal use of the passive is found

Skjaldbjorn

Runefang wrote: »

Though I agree with you I am a fan of small changes like this one rather than major overhauls. A few more like this and we’re close to the pack. I think it’ll add 2k dps on the 21m once the optimal use of the passive is found

This was on a Mag Warden with all the chilled passives and a frost glyph. In a raid with multiple people applying chilled it will probably be closer to 2-2.5k, if you have anyone else applying chilled. That's still a stretch at best in the current meta.

But even if you assume it's a 2.5k DPS buff to Magden and let's say 1.5k to Stamden, let's take a peek at the parse comparisons atm pre-PTS;

Stamcro - 94k
Stam Sorc - 91k
Stamplar - 90k
Mag DK - 90k
Magden - 89.5k*
Stamden - 88.5k*
Stamblade - 88k
Magcro - 88k
Mag Sorc - 88k
Magblade - 88k
Magplar - 87k
Stam DK - 87k

So with adjustments, Magden theoretically moves ahead of everyone but Mag DK. Stamden moves up slightly to 4th among Stam, and all this is considering some of the best players in ESO performing the parses in ideal scenarios. For example, Stamden probably won't have off-balance up on CD consistently by any stretch of the imagination, which is a significant DPS loss.

This also doesn't take into account the buff Aegis is going to be for Stamcro, Stamplar and possibly Stam Sorc.

llBlack_Heartll

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.

This guy has some sweet ideas for the Warden that would really make the class awesome. Check out his ideas

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

ESO_Nightingale

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.

This guy has some sweet ideas for the Warden that would really make the class awesome. Check out his ideas

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

he's already seen the document

llBlack_Heartll

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.

This guy has some sweet ideas for the Warden that would really make the class awesome. Check out his ideas

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWoOX0S4yrR_KFZcjBAvHvR2K6T__6LrIGiaERV8NQA/edit?usp=sharing

he's already seen the document

👍

thadjarvis

I think Parse data is an iffy metric as it doesn't measure for classes especially when the gaps are so narrow

• effective Group DPS realized from group damage buffs
• difficulty to execute rotation in content
• the dummy is close to optimized trial but it's not exact and content results may favor one class over other beyond the margins of the dummy parses
• other factors like survivability and hard to quantify utility

Being "viable" seems to be a popular term. It's hard to measure that and quite subjective; many mean good in the meta by "viable" it seems. However, we don't even have to go there drilling into meta and dummy parse presumptions. Instead we can look at a lower bar of simply "playability" when it comes to Warden PvE DPS. It's more objective and there's not much to argue about.

So, below is the DPS class and type (mag or stam) of HM DLCs from ESO logs. Why HM DLCs? Anything lower than that: class, sets, CP, etc. doesn't matter. Why all clears instead of top scores or higher percentile segments. (1) it's PITA to get that data easily, (2) our bar only has to be playability at the moment.

It measures something more important: what do players choose to play.

Necro utilization kills the theory that players don't use Wardens because they don't have access to non-base game classes.

Stamden: <1% usage within stam with all other classes >8%
Magden: <2% usage within mag with all other classes >12%

Runefang

thadjarvis wrote: »

I think Parse data is an iffy metric as it doesn't measure for classes especially when the gaps are so narrow

• effective Group DPS realized from group damage buffs
• difficulty to execute rotation in content
• the dummy is close to optimized trial but it's not exact and content results may favor one class over other beyond the margins of the dummy parses
• other factors like survivability and hard to quantify utility

Being "viable" seems to be a popular term. It's hard to measure that and quite subjective; many mean good in the meta by "viable" it seems. However, we don't even have to go there drilling into meta and dummy parse presumptions. Instead we can look at a lower bar of simply "playability" when it comes to Warden PvE DPS. It's more objective and there's not much to argue about.

So, below is the DPS class and type (mag or stam) of HM DLCs from ESO logs. Why HM DLCs? Anything lower than that: class, sets, CP, etc. doesn't matter. Why all clears instead of top scores or higher percentile segments. (1) it's PITA to get that data easily, (2) our bar only has to be playability at the moment.

It measures something more important: what do players choose to play.

Necro utilization kills the theory that players don't use Wardens because they don't have access to non-base game classes.

Stamden: <1% usage within stam with all other classes >8%
Magden: <2% usage within mag with all other classes >12%

They are pretty damning dps numbers.

thadjarvis

@Runefang

Clarification. Those are number of "parses", which how many times the class was used. Eg the top Nightblade line under HoF means 1,554 MagNBs ran vAS HM out of 6,248 total Mags or 7,062 total DD's. The 23% for MagNB on the right means 23% of the mag's that ran a HM were NBs.

Vaoh

thadjarvis wrote: »

I think Parse data is an iffy metric as it doesn't measure for classes especially when the gaps are so narrow

• effective Group DPS realized from group damage buffs
• difficulty to execute rotation in content
• the dummy is close to optimized trial but it's not exact and content results may favor one class over other beyond the margins of the dummy parses
• other factors like survivability and hard to quantify utility

Being "viable" seems to be a popular term. It's hard to measure that and quite subjective; many mean good in the meta by "viable" it seems. However, we don't even have to go there drilling into meta and dummy parse presumptions. Instead we can look at a lower bar of simply "playability" when it comes to Warden PvE DPS. It's more objective and there's not much to argue about.

So, below is the DPS class and type (mag or stam) of HM DLCs from ESO logs. Why HM DLCs? Anything lower than that: class, sets, CP, etc. doesn't matter. Why all clears instead of top scores or higher percentile segments. (1) it's PITA to get that data easily, (2) our bar only has to be playability at the moment.

It measures something more important: what do players choose to play.

Necro utilization kills the theory that players don't use Wardens because they don't have access to non-base game classes.

Stamden: <1% usage within stam with all other classes >8%
Magden: <2% usage within mag with all other classes >12%

Whoa. The data confirms what I already knew but it’s crazy to think Warden is doing this bad.

It makes sense though. I’m on PS4 NA and I haven’t seen any Warden DPS in trials in a long time. I use mine for fun on occasion (not effectiveness) and everyone looks at you funny.

Runefang

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Runefang

Clarification. Those are number of "parses", which how many times the class was used. Eg the top Nightblade line under HoF means 1,554 MagNBs ran vAS HM out of 6,248 total Mags or 7,062 total DD's. The 23% for MagNB on the right means 23% of the mag's that ran a HM were NBs.

Sorry I understood that. I meant it was bad that Wardens make up so few of the damage dealers.

thadjarvis

@Skjaldbjorn

The big question I have is how many of those 28 stamden parses are you

Skjaldbjorn

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn

The big question I have is how many of those 28 stamden parses are you

No doubt a few lol. Honestly, Warden has been in a god awful places for ages. It's an unacceptable level of complete futility and oversight from the devs at this point. A patch is a mistake. Two is a blunder. Three is simply acceptance of mediocrity.

Skjaldbjorn

I'd love to see a dev jump in on any of these threads, honestly. I'd love to hear some reasoning behind the changes and what they actually intend to do with Warden, because so far, especially for Stam, everything seems to lack any direction at all.

Valdek

Fear not, Skjaldbjorn. I'm sure it was like this for years with magplar. Now look at them!

Seriously though. Anything we can do to hasten the implementation of ESO_Nightingale's suggestions is worthwhile!

thadjarvis

I wasn't in the game then re magplar. Was any of the classes (mag and stam combined) ever even close to 2%?

I know that may certainly has been and is the case with some support roles for classes but DD is a much larger population.


ZoS has stated that they do not intend to make all classes great in support roles, just usable. I'm cool with that part. I have 3 tanks and will make 2 more, but I don't really want to have to keep 6 ready to go all the time

Skjaldbjorn

Valdek wrote: »

Fear not, Skjaldbjorn. I'm sure it was like this for years with magplar. Now look at them!

Seriously though. Anything we can do to hasten the implementation of ESO_Nightingale's suggestions is worthwhile!

I've said this before, there's a fair number of Nightingale's changes we firmly disagree on. Some I like, like the bear applying a debuff that increases group damage. That's a really solid idea, honestly. However, having Warden redesigned as the "bleed" class feels hollow and lazy to me, and I loathe that direction choice. Poison makes infinitely more sense.

Skjaldbjorn

Be a bit like Zos firmly sticking to Winter's Revenge being Magden's only frost option and deciding their identity isn't frost. It doesn't make sense. Magden needs more frost identity because it fits them. Bleed doesn't fit Warden without a complete visual and contextual overhaul. Bleeds can absolutely exist in nature, but bugs doing bleed damage didn't make sense when they did it, and should be changed to poison.

The worst thing you can do when you make a bad design choice is double down on it.

llBlack_Heartll

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Be a bit like Zos firmly sticking to Winter's Revenge being Magden's only frost option and deciding their identity isn't frost. It doesn't make sense. Magden needs more frost identity because it fits them. Bleed doesn't fit Warden without a complete visual and contextual overhaul. Bleeds can absolutely exist in nature, but bugs doing bleed damage didn't make sense when they did it, and should be changed to poison.

The worst thing you can do when you make a bad design choice is double down on it.

Poison fits Stam Warden, but it’s already covered by other classes.
I’m definitely keen on Frost Damage for Mag.

Like every other class has its Specific Element.
DK - Fire & Poison
Sorc - Lightning & Physical
Templar - Magic & Physical
NB - Magic & Disease/Physical
Necro - Hybrid of all Elements
Warden - Well Should be Frost for Mag, as it just fits, no other class fills that gap other than Necro.
I don’t see an issue with Stam becoming the bleed class? No other class really covers it?

The only other option would be to make the DK the Bleed Class and Warden the Poison Class for Stam.
Bleed kind of fits the DK? I don’t know though.

Skjaldbjorn

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Poison fits Stam Warden, but it’s already covered by other classes.
I’m definitely keen on Frost Damage for Mag.

Like every other class has its Specific Element.
DK - Fire & Poison
Sorc - Lightning & Physical
Templar - Magic & Physical
NB - Magic & Disease/Physical
Necro - Master of all Elements
Warden - Well Should be Frost for Mag, as it just fits, no other class fills that gap other than Necro.
I don’t see an issue with Stam becoming the bleed class? No other class really covers it?

Shalks is the identifying skill for Stamden and has done poison damage since release. As I said, bugs doing bleed damage makes zero sense when you consider the sources of bleeds in ESO. If you want to define it like the classes you listed, Poison/Bleed is fine, but redefining Warden as the exclusive bleed class would need a total redesign, particularly visually. It just doesn't fit Warden at all. If anything, it would fit a Stamblade far better to be the bleed class.

It's also ludicrous to describe Necro as the "master of all elements", honestly. They just randomly have nearly every element in their kit. it doesn't really fit them at all, but here we are anyway.

llBlack_Heartll

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Poison fits Stam Warden, but it’s already covered by other classes.
I’m definitely keen on Frost Damage for Mag.

Like every other class has its Specific Element.
DK - Fire & Poison
Sorc - Lightning & Physical
Templar - Magic & Physical
NB - Magic & Disease/Physical
Necro - Master of all Elements
Warden - Well Should be Frost for Mag, as it just fits, no other class fills that gap other than Necro.
I don’t see an issue with Stam becoming the bleed class? No other class really covers it?

Shalks is the identifying skill for Stamden and has done poison damage since release. As I said, bugs doing bleed damage makes zero sense when you consider the sources of bleeds in ESO. If you want to define it like the classes you listed, Poison/Bleed is fine, but redefining Warden as the exclusive bleed class would need a total redesign, particularly visually. It just doesn't fit Warden at all. If anything, it would fit a Stamblade far better to be the bleed class.

It's also ludicrous to describe Necro as the "master of all elements", honestly. They just randomly have nearly every element in their kit. it doesn't really fit them at all, but here we are anyway.

I change Necro to Hybrid of all elemental to suit it better.

Man I’m not here to argue, I think we’ll all agree that there needs to be some adjustments and I agree Posion fits Stam.

Skjaldbjorn

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Man I’m not here to argue, I think we’ll all agree that there needs to be some adjustments and I agree Posion fits Stam.

Honestly, i'm not trying to argue. I just don't think it makes any sense thematically. Is it a hole in the specialities? Sure! That doesn't mean it fits Warden. I'd love to see a Berserker-themed class or specialization roll into ESO to carry those bleeds. That'd be crazy cool. But it just doesn't fit Warden at all with how they structured and themed the class. Warden is way more Druid-Warrior than some primal fighter that focuses on vicious attacks.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Man I’m not here to argue, I think we’ll all agree that there needs to be some adjustments and I agree Posion fits Stam.

Honestly, i'm not trying to argue. I just don't think it makes any sense thematically. Is it a hole in the specialities? Sure! That doesn't mean it fits Warden. I'd love to see a Berserker-themed class or specialization roll into ESO to carry those bleeds. That'd be crazy cool. But it just doesn't fit Warden at all with how they structured and themed the class. Warden is way more Druid-Warrior than some primal fighter that focuses on vicious attacks.

i see it more as they get their animal companions to rip up their adversaries. it makes total sense to me. i think poison is a little bit more of a stretch even though sub assault does poison damage.

Kittytravel

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

DK - Fire & Poison
Sorc - Lightning & Physical
Templar - Magic & Physical
NB - Magic & Disease/Physical
Necro - Hybrid of all Elements
Warden - Well Should be Frost for Mag, as it just fits, no other class fills that gap other than Necro.

Not to be the bearer of bad news but calling DK the "Fire & Poison" class is pretty funny when they have at max 3 skills that can be poison.
Everything else is just fire. Their class identity is very heavily screwed right now.

(Venomous Claw, Noxious Breath, Corrosive Armor)

llBlack_Heartll

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Man I’m not here to argue, I think we’ll all agree that there needs to be some adjustments and I agree Posion fits Stam.

Honestly, i'm not trying to argue. I just don't think it makes any sense thematically. Is it a hole in the specialities? Sure! That doesn't mean it fits Warden. I'd love to see a Berserker-themed class or specialization roll into ESO to carry those bleeds. That'd be crazy cool. But it just doesn't fit Warden at all with how they structured and themed the class. Warden is way more Druid-Warrior than some primal fighter that focuses on vicious attacks.

i see it more as they get their animal companions to rip up their adversaries. it makes total sense to me. i think poison is a little bit more of a stretch even though sub assault does poison damage.

https://eso-sets.com/set/drozakars-claws

How good would this set be if Warden had bleed skills

llBlack_Heartll

Kittytravel wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

DK - Fire & Poison
Sorc - Lightning & Physical
Templar - Magic & Physical
NB - Magic & Disease/Physical
Necro - Hybrid of all Elements
Warden - Well Should be Frost for Mag, as it just fits, no other class fills that gap other than Necro.

Not to be the bearer of bad news but calling DK the "Fire & Poison" class is pretty funny when they have at max 3 skills that can be poison.
Everything else is just fire. Their class identity is very heavily screwed right now.

(Venomous Claw, Noxious Breath, Corrosive Armor)

That’s 2 or 3 more skills than most of the classes.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

i see it more as they get their animal companions to rip up their adversaries. it makes total sense to me. i think poison is a little bit more of a stretch even though sub assault does poison damage.

Again, the bear? 100% okay. The bugs? No. There are infinitely more flying insects that are venemous than bugs who cause you to bleed. There's nothing wrong with Stamden having poison and bleed skills. It actually makes a ton of sense thematically if we're going nature-focused beasts/creatures. The two most common forms of damage an animal could cause to you would be through venom/poison or laceration.

Skjaldbjorn

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Man I’m not here to argue, I think we’ll all agree that there needs to be some adjustments and I agree Posion fits Stam.

Honestly, i'm not trying to argue. I just don't think it makes any sense thematically. Is it a hole in the specialities? Sure! That doesn't mean it fits Warden. I'd love to see a Berserker-themed class or specialization roll into ESO to carry those bleeds. That'd be crazy cool. But it just doesn't fit Warden at all with how they structured and themed the class. Warden is way more Druid-Warrior than some primal fighter that focuses on vicious attacks.

i see it more as they get their animal companions to rip up their adversaries. it makes total sense to me. i think poison is a little bit more of a stretch even though sub assault does poison damage.

https://eso-sets.com/set/drozakars-claws

How good would this set be if Warden had bleed skills

Well, we do. In THEORY, you can have 9 bleeds running. But the up-time would mean it's never worth it.

mague

No wonder some dev changes are extreme. You guys are the same.

There is a difference of ~5k to the top. Thats like 5.5% difference. Why not just slightly raise some values and be done with it ? Maybe raise Piercing cold to 11% and Advanced species to 2.5%. Or raise the damage of every skill by like 3 points. Its not really difficult to adjust this slightly for 5.5% more dps.