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PSA #2: Warden DPS Is STILL terrible.
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thadjarvis✭✭✭✭@ESO_Nightingale
Warden healer is light years ahead of the other classes that I don't think reducing major mending to minor would change Warden healer raid usage one bit. Kind of sucks for all wardens in dungeon/arena but it seems no ever cares about that when it comes to balance anyway (I am an odd one that does a little). They could as you say increase certain skill coefficients to balance it out for magden.
It is in accordance with a 2019 ZoS position of not making easily accessible long duration Major buffs available. It's pretty much up for a warden healer whenever healing actually matters.0 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »
@thadjarvis My idea to put it on the stam bugs instead of minor vuln means it's an active choice. Either you bring Warden DD, or you have two warden supports, one running each. Further, I had the poison damage % scale with offensive stats, just like engulfing. That way, even if a support ran it, they would get minimal benefit.
That's one idea i've actually taken to two different class reps and gotten some very positive feedback thus far.
I couldn't find it (it needed to be rehashed here anyway). Makes perfect sense; well designed. Got it, similar to DK:
It's possible for DK tank to run stonefist and full engulfing but the build and skill to achieve that is not really feasible in high difficulty content. So, if both are really wanted, the group needs two DKs (two support, two dd, 1 of each).0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭thadjarvis wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »
@thadjarvis My idea to put it on the stam bugs instead of minor vuln means it's an active choice. Either you bring Warden DD, or you have two warden supports, one running each. Further, I had the poison damage % scale with offensive stats, just like engulfing. That way, even if a support ran it, they would get minimal benefit.
That's one idea i've actually taken to two different class reps and gotten some very positive feedback thus far.
I couldn't find it (it needed to be rehashed here anyway). Makes perfect sense; well designed. Got it, similar to DK:
It's possible for DK tank to run stonefist and full engulfing but the build and skill to achieve that is not really feasible in high difficulty content. So, if both are really wanted, the group needs two DKs (two support, two dd, 1 of each).
@thadjarvis Yeah, it got buried in the Warden Class Rep thread. Here's what I proposed for that change;
Growing Swarm:
Applies Minor Vulnerability -> Applies Morag Tong-styled 8-15% Poison damage debuff (scales with offensive stats ala Engulfing Flames)
Deals Bleed damage -> Deals Poison damage
Logic: This change brings a clear buff for Stamina Wardens, by allowing groups to buff poison damage without using a set. The scale of the buff is obviously workable but converting the damage to poison also makes infinitely more sense. Having Warden be the “bleed” class doesn’t really make sense. Wardens thematically do not fit that concept at all, that ties in more to Nightblades. Wardens should be the premiere “Poison” class, as Shalks already do poison damage and are the central identifying skill in the Warden’s arsenal. By making the buff scale with offensive stats, tanks/healers cannot simply steal the buff and increase their own versatility.
Note: In some way, the same aid needs to be given to Magdens by altering the buff on their flies to also scale similarly. As of now, healers and tanks can simply apply the minor vuln at no real cost/loss and that’s a troubling case of Warden supports gaining even more effective power despite being in an incredibly good place as-is.
The 8-15% would be determined by how much they want to give compared to Tong. I think 10-12% is quite reasonable, with it scaling from 1-12% based on offensive stats, with a lean toward weapon damage.Edited by Skjaldbjorn on January 30, 2020 11:40PM0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭thadjarvis wrote: »@ESO_Nightingale
Warden healer is light years ahead of the other classes that I don't think reducing major mending to minor would change Warden healer raid usage one bit. Kind of sucks for all wardens in dungeon/arena but it seems no ever cares about that when it comes to balance anyway (I am an odd one that does a little). They could as you say increase certain skill coefficients to balance it out for magden.
It is in accordance with a 2019 ZoS position of not making easily accessible long duration Major buffs available. It's pretty much up for a warden healer whenever healing actually matters.
I think this is another reason why that change would be good. It would reduce the power of their healing in all areas.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on January 31, 2020 12:18AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭Curious what is the purpose of using the power budget of bear for stun. Uncontrollable stuns are often bad in PvP and actually reduce damage in PvE. In groups the tank can’t chain them (dungeon tanks worst enemy is the familiar); solo you can’t kite them into your ground AOE.
It’s not a big deal but how about swapping that for bloodthirsty?Edited by thadjarvis on January 31, 2020 12:41AM0 -
TheGentleChu✭✭The activated execute portion of bear does work with BT as of last patch (I've tested every patch since Summerset), the automatic attacks and random crushing swipes do not however.
The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
Stamdens "aren't allowed to compete in PvE" because they're "so dominant in PvP" is what I hear a lot and I've wished for a long time that my favorite class could be "allowed" to actually buff the group or at least not be a hindrance in PvE. Some form of group buff not instantly thrown on a healer or tank would basically be enough to at least get StamDens into raids (maybe not meta score pushing group comps per se, but 0.9% representation from those numbers posted earlier really should be one of the biggest red flags ever).0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
That's absolutely a good reason to remove that stunPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Brandathorbel✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
I don't use that on my rings and i have hit over 100k on dragons and trial bosses0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They seem to do this to hunters/rangers/wardens in every game I've played.
I'm used to it, now.
Not happy, but used to it.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
I don't use that on my rings and i have hit over 100k on dragons and trial bosses
I'd love to see a CMX for a Warden hitting 100k on a trial dummy or boss this patch lol0 -
Valdek✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
I don't use that on my rings and i have hit over 100k on dragons and trial bosses
I'd love to see a CMX for a Warden hitting 100k on a trial dummy or boss this patch lol
My guess is that may include the AoE damage, not just dps on a single target?0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
I don't use that on my rings and i have hit over 100k on dragons and trial bosses
I'd love to see a CMX for a Warden hitting 100k on a trial dummy or boss this patch lol
My guess is that may include the AoE damage, not just dps on a single target?
Even AoE i'd be quite surprised, unless it was literally most of the damage from AoE and an AoE-focused build.0 -
Brandathorbel✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
I don't use that on my rings and i have hit over 100k on dragons and trial bosses
I'd love to see a CMX for a Warden hitting 100k on a trial dummy or boss this patch lol
My guess is that may include the AoE damage, not just dps on a single target?
it was actually the bears ultimate during execute phase on one of the dragons in sunspire. 105k was my record.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »TheGentleChu wrote: »The crushing swipe on the bear doesn't even work on the dragons in vSS (check your logs ... they only hit adds) and the rng stun is a terrible mechanic in the first place. I've had parses swing between 83 and 86k from crushing swipe rng alone.
omfg you're not wrong rofl. That is insane.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MQ9dyFGAHfWnPcTK#fight=8&type=damage-done&source=4
My Crushing Swipe did 52 DPS, only ever hitting an Iron Servant. I am at a loss for words. Great catch @TheGentleChu
I don't use that on my rings and i have hit over 100k on dragons and trial bosses
I'd love to see a CMX for a Warden hitting 100k on a trial dummy or boss this patch lol
My guess is that may include the AoE damage, not just dps on a single target?
it was actually the bears ultimate during execute phase on one of the dragons in sunspire. 105k was my record.
OH you meant a single hit rofl I thought you meant 100k DPS0 -
Valdek✭✭✭Ahh. Have you seen how much a magplar beam ticks for in execute phase? And that's spammable. And it hits VERY quickly.
Sadly, an ulti critting for 100k (actually the same amount as ONE tick) really doesn't compare.
(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOIBJHGxQHA) Check out the radiant oppression tick. 0 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4w0Ljvv5qKk
Not a bad parse for a static rotation, the passive is helping a bit though it’ll hurt aoe dps a bit without a berserker glyph.
Not me btw.Edited by Runefang on February 1, 2020 12:47AM0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.
Meanwhile warden is right up on the top of over performance in PvP with Templar. Ranged builds and dots classes have no chance against them atm. Frags? Absorbed, la? Absorbed, curse? Auto purged, mages wrath? Auto purged. A 5 k DPS difference on dummies is not bad at all. And is totally ok imo.
We aren't talking about PVP. Also, my list of suggestions recommends removing the auto-purge. It's busted.
Except you are, regardless if you think you are or not. Increasing damage on an already extremely op class would break PvP even more. A 5k DPS increase would make the class disgustingly op in PvP. Even more so than it is atm.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Two weeks into the PTS so far, Magden has gained a ~500-1k DPS buff, and Stamden remains the lowest parsing Stamina DPS, often behind several Magicka classes. I'm hoping we can see some meaningful change with this patch to help bring Warden up, but this change wasn't it at all. 2-3 weeks left in the PTS. Hoping Wardens can come together and try to be the driving factor for change, even though I know most Warden mains just PVP now and have given up on PVE for their Wardens.
Meanwhile warden is right up on the top of over performance in PvP with Templar. Ranged builds and dots classes have no chance against them atm. Frags? Absorbed, la? Absorbed, curse? Auto purged, mages wrath? Auto purged. A 5 k DPS difference on dummies is not bad at all. And is totally ok imo.
We aren't talking about PVP. Also, my list of suggestions recommends removing the auto-purge. It's busted.
Except you are, regardless if you think you are or not. Increasing damage on an already extremely op class would break PvP even more. A 5k DPS increase would make the class disgustingly op in PvP. Even more so than it is atm.
Not if it's a buff to skills you aren't seeing in PVP. The bear, for example, has absolutely no impact on meaningful PVP.0 -
Valdek✭✭✭Also, 5k dps on a dummy is by no means going to result in 5k in pvp. 5k dps on a trial dummy is only about 5% increase as far as I can tell. Most people rely on burst in pvp anyway, so if you aren't increasing burst damage by much, I doubt it will cause issues.0
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Brandathorbel✭✭✭✭✭
but but all that matters is single target on a dummy. not the actual damage you do throughout a trial....0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
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but but all that matters is single target on a dummy. not the actual damage you do throughout a trial....
Wrath already has a higher Magden parse this patch. And as someone said, that's not even in the top-200 rofl0 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »
but but all that matters is single target on a dummy. not the actual damage you do throughout a trial....
Wrath already has a higher Magden parse this patch. And as someone said, that's not even in the top-200 rofl
so wait, is what I am hearing is that there is hope....or no?0 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »
but but all that matters is single target on a dummy. not the actual damage you do throughout a trial....
Wrath already has a higher Magden parse this patch. And as someone said, that's not even in the top-200 rofl
so wait, is what I am hearing is that there is hope....or no?
There is no hope. Looking at total dps the top 100 parses on that fight (which is a straightforward dummy hump on the whole) has at least one representative from each class in both Magicka and stamina form except for Wardens.
The top Stamden is ranked 542 and the top Magden is ranked 281.
When looking at boss dps Magplars also fall out of the top 100 (to rank 104) but every other class and combination remains. Top Stamden is ranked 353 and top Magden is 567.0 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »PSA #2 Electric Boogaloo, Warden still isn't getting love. Sad as hell.
So we get a frost buff but sets that involve frost damage are getting nerfed. We'll come out even if we're lucky.0
