Clarification on Warden Glacial Presence passive

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

kojou wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I have a couple issues with the passive as well, but if I understand the intention correctly...

A Magicka Warden will benefit a lot from this passive with a Asylum Sanctorium "Concentrated Force" staff and should have pretty decent uptime on this (good luck getting a perfected one). Also, in general just having "Winters Revenge" on a target will provide good uptime as well. As the skill and the passive will increase the chance of applying chilled to any target in the AoE.

My issue is how does a Stamina Warden benefit from it? Do Warden healers have to put "Winters Revenge" on a target if there are no Magicka Wardens in the group? Do I need to slot "Gripping Shards" on my Stamina Warden for the increased chance to apply chilled?

That's not even starting with the whole healing allies that are chilled part. It seems so situational that I wondered why they even bothered adding that "buff"...

I think I would like the passive better if it read more like...

While Allies or Enemies are in a Ice based AoE ("Winter's Revenge", "Gripping Shards", "Ice Wall of Elements", etc) critical healing and critical damage are increased respectively. That would make it a useful passive for Tanks, Healers, and DPS and not require a specific staff to get the full benefit.

Taken as it is stated, yes stam wardens will benefit from it. That's what I meant about the interesting inner-class synergy where, as a stam warden, you'd want a magwarden in group to increase chill uptimes.

Asylum staff will help as well but, unless they make Winter's revenge or Gripping Shards scale with highest offensive stat, I have a hard time guessing if those skills will be worth slotting on a stam Warden. Only testing will tell.

Magicka builds are already using Trap for minor force, so if Gripping Shards gives reasonable uptime on 10% crit damage then you can bet Stamina Wardens will be slotting it. Just need to test uptime...

I severely doubt it is worth it on stamden.

kojou · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

And here I was being naive enough to think they wouldn't necessarily want a Stamina Warden to need a Magicka Warden for maximum damage. Silly me.

At least that passive will be worth putting a skill point into on my Stamina Warden. Right now my Stamina Warden doesn't have it or Piercing Cold.

CleymenZero · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

My question is what the heck does the healing actually mean? ONLY when allies get hit with the Chilled effect is when you personally get higher critical heals for that particular Ally? If so, seems very niche and almost never to happen in pve and very rarely in pvp to receive that increased critical healing. That's what I need clarified.

Yeah you're not going to see THAT much use for the healing unless the new trial, set in Skyrim, will have a lot of sources of chilled status (which would reduce DPS output significantly...) but the damage part is important.

I don't think it was intended to be overly useful. More of a flavourful change.

Yeah I understand that and I like it. Change isn't as important as the damage part but still interesting.

I really like the change and find it very interesting for the inner-class synergy it brings with stamdens. I would just rather have the wording clearer.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

kojou wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

And here I was being naive enough to think they wouldn't necessarily want a Stamina Warden to need a Magicka Warden for maximum damage. Silly me.

At least that passive will be worth putting a skill point into on my Stamina Warden. Right now my Stamina Warden doesn't have it or Piercing Cold.

Yeah that passive is now useful for stamden. Piercing cold is kinda usless for you guys though.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

CleymenZero wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

My question is what the heck does the healing actually mean? ONLY when allies get hit with the Chilled effect is when you personally get higher critical heals for that particular Ally? If so, seems very niche and almost never to happen in pve and very rarely in pvp to receive that increased critical healing. That's what I need clarified.

Yeah you're not going to see THAT much use for the healing unless the new trial, set in Skyrim, will have a lot of sources of chilled status (which would reduce DPS output significantly...) but the damage part is important.

I don't think it was intended to be overly useful. More of a flavourful change.

Yeah I understand that and I like it. Change isn't as important as the damage part but still interesting.

I really like the change and find it very interesting for the inner-class synergy it brings with stamdens. I would just rather have the wording clearer.

Me too, it doesn't give you enough information.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

If you guys want to talk more about warden or specifically frost related stuff, come and join the Frost Discord. Following the introduction of the glacial presence buff, it would seem that our suggestions have more weight. I always think that more people discussing changes and suggestions makes the environment healthier and spreads information easier, getting more people on the same page.

Joosef_Kivikilpi · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

If you guys want to talk more about warden or specifically frost related stuff, come and join the Frost Discord. Following the introduction of the glacial presence buff, it would seem that our suggestions have more weight. I always think that more people discussing changes and suggestions makes the environment healthier and spreads information easier, getting more people on the same page.

I've always enjoyed the discussions on Frost Magic we've had together, Nightingale. I think I am on the discord... I just don't jump on it that much. We have definitely had some great ideas.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

If you guys want to talk more about warden or specifically frost related stuff, come and join the Frost Discord. Following the introduction of the glacial presence buff, it would seem that our suggestions have more weight. I always think that more people discussing changes and suggestions makes the environment healthier and spreads information easier, getting more people on the same page.

I've always enjoyed the discussions on Frost Magic we've had together, Nightingale. I think I am on the discord... I just don't jump on it that much. We have definitely had some great ideas.

It definitely was popular on monday I'll say that much lol

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

The passive should just give increased crit damage/healing otherwise you will end up with mag wardens running around with ice staffs yet again, and wondering why they keep getting agro and kicked from groups. As a main tank I have no tolerance for ice staff users period, they get one warning then kicked. There are few enough of us tanks left, even less who will pug dungeons anymore due to the drop in dps of casuals after the last round of nerfs. Zos either need to drop taunt from the ice staff passive, or just have the crit with no conditions.

Magwardens can keep the chilled status up from anywhere from 70-90% using Winter's Revenge alone *IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN* which is possible. The need to use an ice staff is not there at all in pve, you'll lose 8% single target damage for that, not interesting. If anything, they could use a Maelstrom ice staff (which I don't think is a good solution) or slot an ice glyph on their front bar.

Your concern shouldn't be one.

I don't believe it actually works like that. I have a character with full frost. Including winterborn and iceheart with elemental weapon and arctic blast alongside a frost enchantment and the frost aoes. Even then it's not proccing every second. If you can confirm math, it might be a bug.

I agree that uptimes are not great on Magden. Winter’s Revenge is an AoE DoT and therefore only has a 1% chance per tick to proc chilled. Now with Warden passives and Destruction passives this goes up to 4% per tick, but that’s still only around 40% chance to get one proc of chilled over a 12s Winter’s Revenge, and chilled only lasts 4s IIRC.

Even with a Frost Staff, Light and Heavy Attacks cannot cause chill, and Wall is another AoE DoT with a low chance (only 2% per tick, since it doesn’t benefit from the Winter passive).

The main sources of chill are going to be Elemental Weapon (33%), Asylum Staff Force Pulse (50%), or a Frost Enchant (40%). None of which were worth using on Warden before the new crit passive, so will have to test soon.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

The passive should just give increased crit damage/healing otherwise you will end up with mag wardens running around with ice staffs yet again, and wondering why they keep getting agro and kicked from groups. As a main tank I have no tolerance for ice staff users period, they get one warning then kicked. There are few enough of us tanks left, even less who will pug dungeons anymore due to the drop in dps of casuals after the last round of nerfs. Zos either need to drop taunt from the ice staff passive, or just have the crit with no conditions.

Magwardens can keep the chilled status up from anywhere from 70-90% using Winter's Revenge alone *IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN* which is possible. The need to use an ice staff is not there at all in pve, you'll lose 8% single target damage for that, not interesting. If anything, they could use a Maelstrom ice staff (which I don't think is a good solution) or slot an ice glyph on their front bar.

Your concern shouldn't be one.

I don't believe it actually works like that. I have a character with full frost. Including winterborn and iceheart with elemental weapon and arctic blast alongside a frost enchantment and the frost aoes. Even then it's not proccing every second. If you can confirm math, it might be a bug.

I agree that uptimes are not great on Magden. Winter’s Revenge is an AoE DoT and therefore only has a 1% chance per tick to proc chilled. Now with Warden passives and Destruction passives this goes up to 4% per tick, but that’s still only around 40% chance to get one proc of chilled over a 12s Winter’s Revenge, and chilled only lasts 4s IIRC.

Even with a Frost Staff, Light and Heavy Attacks cannot cause chill, and Wall is another AoE DoT with a low chance (only 2% per tick, since it doesn’t benefit from the Winter passive).

The main sources of chill are going to be Elemental Weapon (33%), Asylum Staff Force Pulse (50%), or a Frost Enchant (40%). None of which were worth using on Warden before the new crit passive, so will have to test soon.

Winter's Revenge has a "higher chance to apply the chilled status effect" as a benefit of the morph. I'm unsure how much of an increase this is and how it scales with other status effect bonuses (is it multiplicative or additive with charged for example?). I doubt that it would make a huge difference but it would be interesting to see some empirical data on typical chilled uptimes for Winter's Revenge alone.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

You know, as others have suggested, making Winter's Embrace scale off highest offensive stat rather than purely a magicka ability would make this buff a huge success for both Mag and Stam variants, and the precedent is there with skills like Ritual.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. It's so obvious I saw right past it. There are so many positives to that change;

1. Doesn't impact PVP at all
2. Doesn't negatively impact Magden
3. Positively impact Stamden
4. Allows both variants to utilize Chilled

Thematically, it makes sense. Even in the Morrowind trailer, the (clearly) Stamina Warden was using frost magic to deal damage. It would be a cool visual to have a Stamden standing in their own frost ring to deal damage. Further, it would actually "level the field" a bit as far as skill options go. Magden has access to a Magicka variant of every AC skill, as does Stam. Stam, however, gains literally not a single skill from the WE tree.

I see no negative connection to that change at all. The precedent is already there, it makes a ton of sense thematically and functionally, it helps bring Stamden up along with Magden and doesn't negatively impact PVP where many feel Wardens are too strong.

I'm about to forum warrior my ass off for this.

Olupajmibanan · January 2020

Well, since most magDKs are running Asylum Inferno for some time and I don't think this is going to change with new patch, uptime on chilled will definitely be high and so will be Warden's uptime on the passive. But having to rely on someone else in order to have solid uptime on a class passive makes this just a poor version of Hemorrhage/Piercing Spear. But whatever, it's better than nothing.

ATreeGnome · January 2020

.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Well, since most magDKs are running Asylum Inferno for some time and I don't think this is going to change with new patch, uptime on chilled will definitely be high and so will be Warden's uptime on the passive. But having to rely on someone else in order to have solid uptime on a class passive makes this just a poor version of Hemorrhage/Piercing Spear. But whatever, it's better than nothing.

That, unfortunately won't do much for stamdens given that many PvE groups tend to skew all magicka or all stamina, atleast for serious progression and other situations where we worry about group optimization.

Faulgor · January 2020

CleymenZero wrote: »

"Glacial Presence: This passive now also increases your Critical Damage against enemies, and Critical Healing against allies who have been recently afflicted with the Chilled status effect."

What does the statement "recently afflicted with the Chilled status" mean specifically?

Yeah it's odd. 2 pages on and nobody seemed to be able to answer how long this bonus lasts.
If it was just for the duration of chilled, the description wouldn't say "have been recently afflicted", it would say "are afflicted".

I can't properly test these things until we get our EU characters, though.

CleymenZero · January 2020

Faulgor wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

"Glacial Presence: This passive now also increases your Critical Damage against enemies, and Critical Healing against allies who have been recently afflicted with the Chilled status effect."

What does the statement "recently afflicted with the Chilled status" mean specifically?

Yeah it's odd. 2 pages on and nobody seemed to be able to answer how long this bonus lasts.
If it was just for the duration of chilled, the description wouldn't say "have been recently afflicted", it would say "are afflicted".

I can't properly test these things until we get our EU characters, though.

You know, sometimes, ZOS will keep tight-lipped about some mechanics under the hood and leave it to users to test out which is ok but for a passive, it's reasonable to expect precise information on the mechanics.

Whether it performs well for solo/raid/fore play is up to users to find out but the mechanics of a passive should be disclosed plainly.

I think it's just an omission and I can see it happening. There are a number of very impactful changes going on this pts patch so quirks like these are bound to happen.

I merely wished to point it out to get it clarified and see if someone had done the testing.

CleymenZero · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

The passive should just give increased crit damage/healing otherwise you will end up with mag wardens running around with ice staffs yet again, and wondering why they keep getting agro and kicked from groups. As a main tank I have no tolerance for ice staff users period, they get one warning then kicked. There are few enough of us tanks left, even less who will pug dungeons anymore due to the drop in dps of casuals after the last round of nerfs. Zos either need to drop taunt from the ice staff passive, or just have the crit with no conditions.

Magwardens can keep the chilled status up from anywhere from 70-90% using Winter's Revenge alone *IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN* which is possible. The need to use an ice staff is not there at all in pve, you'll lose 8% single target damage for that, not interesting. If anything, they could use a Maelstrom ice staff (which I don't think is a good solution) or slot an ice glyph on their front bar.

Your concern shouldn't be one.

I don't believe it actually works like that. I have a character with full frost. Including winterborn and iceheart with elemental weapon and arctic blast alongside a frost enchantment and the frost aoes. Even then it's not proccing every second. If you can confirm math, it might be a bug.

I agree that uptimes are not great on Magden. Winter’s Revenge is an AoE DoT and therefore only has a 1% chance per tick to proc chilled. Now with Warden passives and Destruction passives this goes up to 4% per tick, but that’s still only around 40% chance to get one proc of chilled over a 12s Winter’s Revenge, and chilled only lasts 4s IIRC.

Even with a Frost Staff, Light and Heavy Attacks cannot cause chill, and Wall is another AoE DoT with a low chance (only 2% per tick, since it doesn’t benefit from the Winter passive).

The main sources of chill are going to be Elemental Weapon (33%), Asylum Staff Force Pulse (50%), or a Frost Enchant (40%). None of which were worth using on Warden before the new crit passive, so will have to test soon.

Can you help me out here? I've been trying to answer 2 questions namely:
- What is a typical chill uptime when at least 1 mag warden is in raid?
- -What are the mechanics of the new addition to Glacial Presence?

We don't have much for the second question but here is what I have for the second:

My way of trying to get an idea of typical chill (or chilled) uptimes was to go on eso logs and look at the rankings for mag warden specifically. I would then go from boss to boss and see chill (the way it is called on eso logs) uptimes.

For example:

St-Olms fight:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MrxXyjqt8Q4nWza9#fight=9&type=auras&hostility=1&source=15

Chill = 61%

Valariel:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/RnZaB2rv3DJ67tqP#fight=28&type=auras&hostility=1&source=92

Chill = 72%

Had a vHoF run last night where chill uptime was around 87% on factotum and AG.

It is of course going to vary a lot based on group comp etc. but the idea was, in raids where at least 1 mag warden is present, what is a typical Chilled uptime?

My sample is very small but I think it's a start.

What do you think of the methodology?

Runefang · January 2020

CleymenZero wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

The passive should just give increased crit damage/healing otherwise you will end up with mag wardens running around with ice staffs yet again, and wondering why they keep getting agro and kicked from groups. As a main tank I have no tolerance for ice staff users period, they get one warning then kicked. There are few enough of us tanks left, even less who will pug dungeons anymore due to the drop in dps of casuals after the last round of nerfs. Zos either need to drop taunt from the ice staff passive, or just have the crit with no conditions.

Magwardens can keep the chilled status up from anywhere from 70-90% using Winter's Revenge alone *IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN* which is possible. The need to use an ice staff is not there at all in pve, you'll lose 8% single target damage for that, not interesting. If anything, they could use a Maelstrom ice staff (which I don't think is a good solution) or slot an ice glyph on their front bar.

Your concern shouldn't be one.

I don't believe it actually works like that. I have a character with full frost. Including winterborn and iceheart with elemental weapon and arctic blast alongside a frost enchantment and the frost aoes. Even then it's not proccing every second. If you can confirm math, it might be a bug.

I agree that uptimes are not great on Magden. Winter’s Revenge is an AoE DoT and therefore only has a 1% chance per tick to proc chilled. Now with Warden passives and Destruction passives this goes up to 4% per tick, but that’s still only around 40% chance to get one proc of chilled over a 12s Winter’s Revenge, and chilled only lasts 4s IIRC.

Even with a Frost Staff, Light and Heavy Attacks cannot cause chill, and Wall is another AoE DoT with a low chance (only 2% per tick, since it doesn’t benefit from the Winter passive).

The main sources of chill are going to be Elemental Weapon (33%), Asylum Staff Force Pulse (50%), or a Frost Enchant (40%). None of which were worth using on Warden before the new crit passive, so will have to test soon.

Can you help me out here? I've been trying to answer 2 questions namely:
- What is a typical chill uptime when at least 1 mag warden is in raid?
- -What are the mechanics of the new addition to Glacial Presence?

We don't have much for the second question but here is what I have for the second:

My way of trying to get an idea of typical chill (or chilled) uptimes was to go on eso logs and look at the rankings for mag warden specifically. I would then go from boss to boss and see chill (the way it is called on eso logs) uptimes.

For example:

St-Olms fight:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/MrxXyjqt8Q4nWza9#fight=9&type=auras&hostility=1&source=15

Chill = 61%

Valariel:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/RnZaB2rv3DJ67tqP#fight=28&type=auras&hostility=1&source=92

Chill = 72%

Had a vHoF run last night where chill uptime was around 87% on factotum and AG.

It is of course going to vary a lot based on group comp etc. but the idea was, in raids where at least 1 mag warden is present, what is a typical Chilled uptime?

My sample is very small but I think it's a start.

What do you think of the methodology?

Chill uptime will be almost entirely based on the presence of an Asylum staff or use of elemental weapon. Magden presence won’t affect this much.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

Runefang wrote: »

Chill uptime will be almost entirely based on the presence of an Asylum staff or use of elemental weapon. Magden presence won’t affect this much.

From logs I have, ele weapon and Asylum staff have accounted for around 50-60% uptime, sometimes lower. Magden most definitely seems to ramp it.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

You know, as others have suggested, making Winter's Embrace scale off highest offensive stat rather than purely a magicka ability would make this buff a huge success for both Mag and Stam variants, and the precedent is there with skills like Ritual.

I really don't like this suggestion. Stamden already stood on our toes with growing swarm making the difference between us even less however i accept that change because stamden is a hunter archetype. Thematically they should not gain this skill. It is ours. I'm all for stamden getting buffs. But not like this. I see this change as a version of hemorrage. Where half of hemorrage buffs weapon crit chance. Not both. Magblade doesn't gain benefit from it but can apply it. Back to glacial, with this passive, stamden can gain benefit from other people applying chilled. Which is good. I don't believe that they need to have a chance to apply chilled in their kit. I think stamden could use some buffs for sure but giving winter's revenge reaaally kicks magicka warden in the nuts.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

You know, as others have suggested, making Winter's Embrace scale off highest offensive stat rather than purely a magicka ability would make this buff a huge success for both Mag and Stam variants, and the precedent is there with skills like Ritual.

I really don't like this suggestion. Stamden already stood on our toes with growing swarm making the difference between us even less however i accept that change because stamden is a hunter archetype. Thematically they should not gain this skill. It is ours. I'm all for stamden getting buffs. But not like this.

By this logic, where is the unique Stamden skill? We share every AC skill. Every. SIngle. One. This logic fails miserably.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The point is to make chilled better for a magicka warden as it didn't do anything helpful damagewise for those who used it. The passive also benefits stamina warden via groups. If it didn't effect stamden at all, they would complain. Which is why it increases all critical damage. It gives magden a niche at applying chilled to help both stamden and magden. Now stamden needs a small niche and some useful targeted buffs to make them wanted in groups.

You know, as others have suggested, making Winter's Embrace scale off highest offensive stat rather than purely a magicka ability would make this buff a huge success for both Mag and Stam variants, and the precedent is there with skills like Ritual.

I really don't like this suggestion. Stamden already stood on our toes with growing swarm making the difference between us even less however i accept that change because stamden is a hunter archetype. Thematically they should not gain this skill. It is ours. I'm all for stamden getting buffs. But not like this.

By this logic, where is the unique Stamden skill? We share every AC skill. Every. SIngle. One. This logic fails miserably.

You should gain one, as magden should gain something like AB4.0. Also i have edited that comment.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

You should gain one, as magden should gain something like AB4.0. Also i have edited that comment.

I think you and I both know that probably isn't going to happen lol. That's just being candid. I however strongly disagree with this notion of "stepping on Magden's toes". Why? How? In more casual trial environments, nobody really cares about a Mag/Stam split. Typically whatever is fine as long as the numbers aren't atrocious. In meta groups where they may be 8 Stam or 8 Mag, which is incredibly common, both variants benefit heavily. This doesn't hurt Magden at all, unless you simply mean how "unique" Magden is. If that's the case, I would remove the magicka version of Shalks to equalize.

Shalks has been the "flagship" skill for Stam since day one and that's never changed. Magicka meta rotations dropped Shalks several times to add dots.

WrathOfInnos · January 2020

ATreeGnome wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

karios525 wrote: »

The passive should just give increased crit damage/healing otherwise you will end up with mag wardens running around with ice staffs yet again, and wondering why they keep getting agro and kicked from groups. As a main tank I have no tolerance for ice staff users period, they get one warning then kicked. There are few enough of us tanks left, even less who will pug dungeons anymore due to the drop in dps of casuals after the last round of nerfs. Zos either need to drop taunt from the ice staff passive, or just have the crit with no conditions.

Magwardens can keep the chilled status up from anywhere from 70-90% using Winter's Revenge alone *IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN* which is possible. The need to use an ice staff is not there at all in pve, you'll lose 8% single target damage for that, not interesting. If anything, they could use a Maelstrom ice staff (which I don't think is a good solution) or slot an ice glyph on their front bar.

Your concern shouldn't be one.

I don't believe it actually works like that. I have a character with full frost. Including winterborn and iceheart with elemental weapon and arctic blast alongside a frost enchantment and the frost aoes. Even then it's not proccing every second. If you can confirm math, it might be a bug.

I agree that uptimes are not great on Magden. Winter’s Revenge is an AoE DoT and therefore only has a 1% chance per tick to proc chilled. Now with Warden passives and Destruction passives this goes up to 4% per tick, but that’s still only around 40% chance to get one proc of chilled over a 12s Winter’s Revenge, and chilled only lasts 4s IIRC.

Even with a Frost Staff, Light and Heavy Attacks cannot cause chill, and Wall is another AoE DoT with a low chance (only 2% per tick, since it doesn’t benefit from the Winter passive).

The main sources of chill are going to be Elemental Weapon (33%), Asylum Staff Force Pulse (50%), or a Frost Enchant (40%). None of which were worth using on Warden before the new crit passive, so will have to test soon.

Winter's Revenge has a "higher chance to apply the chilled status effect" as a benefit of the morph. I'm unsure how much of an increase this is and how it scales with other status effect bonuses (is it multiplicative or additive with charged for example?). I doubt that it would make a huge difference but it would be interesting to see some empirical data on typical chilled uptimes for Winter's Revenge alone.

@ATreeGnome Interesting, yes it would be good to know exactly what that effect does to the % chance to proc chill.

I checked some logs where I used Winter’s Revenge as my only Frost skill on Yolnakriin and it resulted in 18.7% uptime. Now that boss flies away a few times, so if we look only at active time it seems to be closer to 22% uptime. So on average it seems to have caused chill about once every 18 ticks of Winter’s Revenge, so roughly 5-6% chance per tick on this low sample size.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

You should gain one, as magden should gain something like AB4.0. Also i have edited that comment.

I think you and I both know that probably isn't going to happen lol. That's just being candid. I however strongly disagree with this notion of "stepping on Magden's toes". Why? How? In more casual trial environments, nobody really cares about a Mag/Stam split. Typically whatever is fine as long as the numbers aren't atrocious. In meta groups where they may be 8 Stam or 8 Mag, which is incredibly common, both variants benefit heavily. This doesn't hurt Magden at all, unless you simply mean how "unique" Magden is. If that's the case, I would remove the magicka version of Shalks to equalize.

Because the classes are supposed to be different. Giving stamden our last final unique damage skill destroys that notion. I believe its possible they might give a new skill now. This patch proved they can implement a suggestion. Winter's revenge on stamden is something that should not happen.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@ATreeGnome Interesting, yes it would be good to know exactly what that effect does to the % chance to proc chill.

I checked some logs where I used Winter’s Revenge as my only Frost skill on Yolnakriin and it resulted in 18.7% uptime. Now that boss flies away a few times, so if we look only at active time it seems to be closer to 22% uptime. So on average it seems to have caused chill about once every 18 ticks of Winter’s Revenge, so roughly 5-6% chance per tick on this low sample size.

That's actually really good information. So if Winter's Revenge alone accounts for around ~20% uptime I think that actually adds even more credibility to the change. That would allow Stamden to keep up 20% or so without assistance, which is really not even that powerful. They'd still need help from Mag DPS to have truly meaningful uptime, but also don't have to do some nonsense like run a frost glyph. That isn't even remotely a functional concept.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Because the classes are supposed to be different. Giving stamden our last final unique damage skill destroys that notion. I believe its possible they might give a new skill now. This patch proved they can implement a suggestion. This is something that should not happen.

This patch proved they can change a passive. I don't know why you're so defensive here, honestly. Yes, they altered Stonefist, and it's actually terrible. In fact with the new changes DKs are probably not even going to run it. I get wanting your class to be unique, but the common talk is not negatively impacting PVP, and not breaking the class, and this change accomplishes both those goals with minimal work and dev time investment.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Because the classes are supposed to be different. Giving stamden our last final unique damage skill destroys that notion. I believe its possible they might give a new skill now. This patch proved they can implement a suggestion. This is something that should not happen.

This patch proved they can change a passive. I don't know why you're so defensive here, honestly. Yes, they altered Stonefist, and it's actually terrible. In fact with the new changes DKs are probably not even going to run it. I get wanting your class to be unique, but the common talk is not negatively impacting PVP, and not breaking the class, and this change accomplishes both those goals with minimal work and dev time investment.

I am being defencive because you're trying to take the last unique thing away from magden that doesn't thematically belong on stamden. I really do not like your change. If you would like to increase your chilled uptime let us come up with an alternative suggestion.

Skjaldbjorn · January 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Because the classes are supposed to be different. Giving stamden our last final unique damage skill destroys that notion. I believe its possible they might give a new skill now. This patch proved they can implement a suggestion. This is something that should not happen.

This patch proved they can change a passive. I don't know why you're so defensive here, honestly. Yes, they altered Stonefist, and it's actually terrible. In fact with the new changes DKs are probably not even going to run it. I get wanting your class to be unique, but the common talk is not negatively impacting PVP, and not breaking the class, and this change accomplishes both those goals with minimal work and dev time investment.

I am being defencive because you're trying to take the last unique thing away from magden that doesn't thematically belong on stamden. I really do not like your change. If you would like to increase your chilled uptime let us come up with an alternative suggestion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xst39v8wE